Trinity Is A Problem

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

I've seen many above disagreeing on OP but never really give their proper arguments. People that's not how you convince others.

 

To OP, I cannot agree with you on her 4th being too good.

 

1. Trinity nearly has the least mean of crowd control / damage capacity among all the frames. Even Loki has radial disarm, which is very strong; Saryn has miasma stun as well as Molt for distraction.  Trinity can only provide maximum 2 stun at a time - Well of life + Energy Vamipre.  In this game requiring good Crowd control to help your team to stay alive, she will need another good enough ability to compensate for her lack of damage and controlling capacity, to hold the whole group. Blessing is the answer for that.

 

2. As powerful as it seems, blessing isn't the kind of ability that you can blindly spam to enjoy the greatest effect. In fact, the mechanic that give damage resistance base on the healing amount make it really thoughtful to use - you would want to get the best timing to give as much damage resistance on your team, as giving a pitful 10% damage resistance may get your team all down while in the heat of a battlefield.

 

3. It really require the user to carefully pay attention to all allies health in order to benefit from blessing. Most of the situation I have encountered is that the trinity in my team didn't pay enough attention and getting teammates down. Even myself - when I use Trinity, I make sure I am always alerted on my teams' condition - as careful as I try hard, there are times that I cannot heal my teammates in time to avoid them going down. Because when using trinity, you are basically super multitasking - picking up well of life and EV targets, paying attention to the timer of Link (because you should never be the one to go down) as well as your team's health. It is so stressful, maybe that's why I don't use her often.

 

All in all, I don't think her 4th is really a big issue. Yes, if your team has a good trinity, it's quite possible for your team to stay up very long. Yet, It really require heavy multitasking and skillful usage for the trinity. And it's nothing wrong to reward skillful and thoughtful users. It is not the ability that you can cast mindlessly, uncarefully to benefit the best amount of it.

 

Remember, with a Trinity in your team, you already have one less member to provide good CC / damage. Thus, her ultimate healing ability should be justify to compensate the loss.

 

As for the "in XX level, ability's damage doesn't matter, you have your weapons" argument, I can assure you, in that level, the trinity user will just be more stressful multitasking to help keeping the team alive. If she can manage that, there is nothing wrong with it, as the effort given is justified for the result. Should one careless mistake arise, there is a huge risk for the whole team. This is not an ability that can used really easily.

 

I can tell you use Trinity a lot :)

[RealPandemonium]

We should keep in mind that a long duration Trinity can get 99% damage reduction and spam Castanas or Stug at her feet to kill swarms of enemies with Link.  Meanwhile, a minimum duration Trinity can almost instantly kill any non-boss enemy with the WoL + EV combo.  You can't really say that Trinity offers no killing potential whatsoever for her team.  

[zavienh5]

Let's make Trinity without abilities.

[nekrojiji]

I've seen many above disagreeing on OP but never really give their proper arguments. People that's not how you convince others.

 

To OP, I cannot agree with you on her 4th being too good.

 

1. Trinity nearly has the least mean of crowd control / damage capacity among all the frames. Even Loki has radial disarm, which is very strong; Saryn has miasma stun as well as Molt for distraction.  Trinity can only provide maximum 2 stun at a time - Well of life + Energy Vamipre.  In this game requiring good Crowd control to help your team to stay alive, she will need another good enough ability to compensate for her lack of damage and controlling capacity, to hold the whole group. Blessing is the answer for that.

 

2. As powerful as it seems, blessing isn't the kind of ability that you can blindly spam to enjoy the greatest effect. In fact, the mechanic that give damage resistance base on the healing amount make it really thoughtful to use - you would want to get the best timing to give as much damage resistance on your team, as giving a pitful 10% damage resistance may get your team all down while in the heat of a battlefield.

 

3. It really require the user to carefully pay attention to all allies health in order to benefit from blessing. Most of the situation I have encountered is that the trinity in my team didn't pay enough attention and getting teammates down. Even myself - when I use Trinity, I make sure I am always alerted on my teams' condition - as careful as I try hard, there are times that I cannot heal my teammates in time to avoid them going down. Because when using trinity, you are basically super multitasking - picking up well of life and EV targets, paying attention to the timer of Link (because you should never be the one to go down) as well as your team's health. It is so stressful, maybe that's why I don't use her often.

 

All in all, I don't think her 4th is really a big issue. Yes, if your team has a good trinity, it's quite possible for your team to stay up very long. Yet, It really require heavy multitasking and skillful usage for the trinity. And it's nothing wrong to reward skillful and thoughtful users. It is not the ability that you can cast mindlessly, uncarefully to benefit the best amount of it.

 

Remember, with a Trinity in your team, you already have one less member to provide good CC / damage. Thus, her ultimate healing ability should be justify to compensate the loss.

 

As for the "in XX level, ability's damage doesn't matter, you have your weapons" argument, I can assure you, in that level, the trinity user will just be more stressful multitasking to help keeping the team alive. If she can manage that, there is nothing wrong with it, as the effort given is justified for the result. Should one careless mistake arise, there is a huge risk for the whole team. This is not an ability that can used really easily.

dude ..... N I N E T Y     N I N E      P E R C E N T     damage reduction .....

 

ok I'm done!

[SoonTM]

Before I begin, it should be noted that I both play, and enjoy using, Trinity as a Warframe.  However, her power set is incredibly problematic for the balance of the game as a whole.  I don't want to call for further nerfs to her abilities, but if it would lead to better game design and balance, it would be for the best.  The biggest offender to balance is her ultimate ability, Blessing.  Blessing will almost immediately restore your team's health and shields to full, regardless of range.  This is VERY bad for game balance.  If your teammate (let's say a rhino with 500 HP and 500 Shields) takes any amount of non-lethal damage, Trinity can press 4 and instantly negate that damage.  This means that any single attack dealing less that 1000 damage is useless, as it will have no net effect on the Trinity or her ally.  While this would normally mean that Trinity would have to conserve her energy, and save her Blessing for major emergencies, Energy Vampire completely negates any requirement of conservation.  Trinity can refill her energy supply practically at will, allowing her to render her team largely unkillable.  This means that in turn, in order to stand even a chance against any team with a Trinity on it, enemies have to be so powerful that they can instantly kill all but the toughest players, leading to problematic designs, such as players actively avoiding killing enemies in the raid, or high level missions being dominated by a select few frames.  Trinity as a concept is great, she can restore energy to allies, and heal them when they take damage.  However, in practice, she invalidates all challenge that does not involve instant death, which is a very binary and boring design in a game like Warframe.

 

TL;DR: Trinity's Blessing makes it such that any hit that is not an instant kill is meaningless, and Energy Vampire makes Blessing's normally high cost meaningless.  In order to kill Trinity or her allies, they have to kill in a single hit, which is not fun.

The problem is not Trinity. The problem is Corrupted and Primed mods.

Energy Vampire restores 100 energy at max rank, and costs 50 energy to use. Even with Max Streamline and Intensify, it's 35 to cast and restores 130 energy -- net 95 energy. While that would be enough to cast blessing, it would not be enough to cast blessing AND energy vampire together. Further, remember that without Corrupted mods, Trinity would have to either kill or wait out the entirety of EVamp's 9 second duration -- and with only stretch, it would only cover 36 in game metres.

Corrupted mods should be rebalanced, and primed mods should never have become a thing.

Archwing currently has one thing going for it -- modding.

[counterflux]

dude ..... N I N E T Y     N I N E      P E R C E N T     damage reduction .....

 

ok I'm done!

for only 13 sec or so maximum. Then you need to get damage to get a new 99% reduction. Is that easy? no, enemies will kill you fast enough to bypass Quick thinking in high levels or knockdown procs will make you unable to cast it in time and link makes that getting to 2hp is too slow.

You won't have 99% all the time. It goes up and down and the downtime between it is enough to get people killed.

 

But I don't think you'll ever understand that trinity isn't that OP untill you actually play trinity yourself. I highly advise everyone to play trinity before saying she's OP! please nerf! 

She looks just OP because the you (the non-trinity) just suddenly got a lot stronger.

[EvilChaosKnight]

-snip-

 

I agree with that completely.

 

I remember how my friend and I went to that mutalist survival event just for 30 min reward thing. I was Trin, he was Rhino Pr.

Let me tell you, that by the end of it my fingers damn hurt XD

 

In mission tally it showed that I used a total of 209 abilities in 32m (1 ability every 9 seconds XD). That's because:

- Needed to provide energy so Rhino could CC stomp from time to time else you get swarmed.

- Needed to keep my eyes on the Link timer else death due to knockdowns, average HPs and paper armor. Oh and if you get magnetic proc'd... GG.

- Needed to keep my eyes on both my and teammates health. QT? Sure it helps to get 99% DR with blessing. Fun part? You get stunlocked easily once on the energy life support so relying on it would be your downfall.

 

All while you are not free from the standard Warframe tasks such as:

- Keeping your eyes on the oxygen meter/any other objective

- Picking off priority targets.

So 5 tasks at once. Have fun! If you can... XD

She's a healer and a support unit. Let her do her job in peace already.

 

TL;DR: Trinity has a very high skill ceiling and not-so-low skill floor. Just like Banshee you need to learn how to mod and use her carefully else you'll be nothing but a burden with a gun for your team.

[nekrojiji]

for only 13 sec or so maximum. Then you need to get damage to get a new 99% reduction. Is that easy? no, enemies will kill you fast enough to bypass Quick thinking in high levels or knockdown procs will make you unable to cast it in time and link makes that getting to 2hp is too slow.

You won't have 99% all the time. It goes up and down and the downtime between it is enough to get people killed.

 

But I don't think you'll ever understand that trinity isn't that OP untill you actually play trinity yourself. I highly advise everyone to play trinity before saying she's OP! please nerf! 

She looks just OP because the you (the non-trinity) just suddenly got a lot stronger.

I can keep up 99% damage reduction regardless of enemies(regardless means ..... don't need them) ......so yes ... and it takes ~1 second to apply a new one 

Edited April 21, 2015 by nekrojiji

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

OP, why not put Negative Strength on your Trinity then? xD

[ThePresident777]

1-hit-kill is the fun of being a glass cannon.

[ShortCat]

Main Trin here.

 

Do I think Blessing is not healthy for game balance? Yes! It makes all other healing abilities and augments useless, even her own!

 

Do I have a solution for the problem? No.

 

Am I asking for changes to Blessing? No! Atm the ability wotks as intended and is essential for high and content.

[EchoesOfRain]

Am I asking for changes to Blessing? No! Atm the ability wotks as intended and is essential for high and content.

 

In other words, end-game needs to be reworked before true frame balance. Fine by me, If it means that any frame can be valuable in end-game content. Otherwise, Trin will ALWAYS be a necessity, which is not healthy at all for balance

[NedTyler]

OMG I totally agree with you OP. They shouldn't just stop at trin ALL frames should be nerfed.

   Ash's bladestorm is too OP. It kills all the corrupted bombards

   Banshee's soundquake makes it impossible for any enemies to get close enough to kill her

   Chroma's vex armor and ward can make him almost invincible with more that 3k armor.

   Excalibur ...

   Frosts has an ability that can FREEZE enemies. this is not fair to other players that want to freeze enemies too but can't cos they're not frost

   Mesa's ult should be nerfed too. I does way too much damage. I can't even kill anything in a T4D. The mesa kills everything.

 

I could keep going, but OP you already know all this cos you've used all these frames. I mean I was playing a defense the other day, and a trin I was playing with kept healing me. I totally took away my freedom to make mistakes and die like a man. she should be nerfed to the ground. In fact, no frame should have the ability to heal. Health orbs and restores should be removed from the game and you should lose your warframe when you run out of revives.

 

Infact the only frame in this game that's currently balanced is Ember. Her ult does an extremely high amount of fire damage (which is obviously the best elemental proc in the game), and is properly countered by duration and efficiency. OP we should totally keep making threads like this. If we keep this up, they'll definitely hear us.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

 

Infact the only frame in this game that's currently balanced is Ember. Her ult does an extremely high amount of fire damage (which is obviously the best elemental proc in the game), and is properly countered by duration and efficiency. OP we should totally keep making threads like this. If we keep this up, they'll definitely hear us.

 

Ember? Is that a joke? Its hard to tell.

 

Hahaah I re-read that, you are one funny mofo Ned.

 

- - - -

 

You're the second person to justify nerfing other frames by comparing them to ember. 

 

Has she received a recent buff that I am not aware of?

 

Last I played her she was a broken S#&$y shadow of he former self. 

 

• Her ultimate still offered no protection but required ember to get into a close-ish range for maximum effect,

• even if you were in the middle of a crowd only 5 enemies could be targeted initially, doing only initial 400 damage which I guess is good in low level but it is really a drop in the bucket in high level gameplay,
• Subsequent explosions only occured ever ~4 seconds, you literally have to stay in close proximity for 4 secs hoping a random burst will hit the guy you want,
• Any subsequent explosions would only target 2 enemies at a time, that’s right two enemies every 4 seconds, at only 400 initial damage
• Her status chance, thus chance to actually stun the people shooting you in the ! is 35%. To put that into perspective that is only 5% more status chance then my vectis, which can be modded for any element, attack from a distance does 225 base damage at roughly 2.5x the firerate (base),
• It has a long-ish cast time, initial cast cost of 50, and duration limit

• and to top it all off, it drained energy faster then a parasitic exiums.

• Even if you manage to kill all the nearby enemies around you, you could not deactivate WOF it would  continue to drain your energy until its duration ends or it consumes all you power.

 

Forget about solo play and say goodbye to any semblance of synergy. If you used her, you better have full power because if you wanted to use a power combo, like "Accelerate" you greatly reduce the time WOF because that’s  100 power upfront + 5 energy every second.

 

FE & Flow was pretty much mandatory if you want to take her anywhere above level 25.

 

And that’s balanced. I guess it shows how subjective balance really is.

 

P.S. I really don't want Trinity to turn out like Ember.

Edited April 22, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[(PSN)Madkiller2580]

-Sigh- Ohh great another one of these threads. Well for one Trinity is not "OP" as you think. You're talking about the instant heal( which I find rather weird ) of all things on Trinity why that O_O, but anyway I'll go off the 99% DR. Well for one Trinity has to work for that just because you cast blessing doesn't mean it's easy mode. Yes you did heal your party full heath and shield, but did that cast of blessing stop the bombard and heavy gunner who is shooting at you and your teammates, umm no. 

[(PSN)Madkiller2580]

OMG I totally agree with you OP. They shouldn't just stop at trin ALL frames should be nerfed.

   Ash's bladestorm is too OP. It kills all the corrupted bombards

   Banshee's soundquake makes it impossible for any enemies to get close enough to kill her

   Chroma's vex armor and ward can make him almost invincible with more that 3k armor.

   Excalibur ...

   Frosts has an ability that can FREEZE enemies. this is not fair to other players that want to freeze enemies too but can't cos they're not frost

   Mesa's ult should be nerfed too. I does way too much damage. I can't even kill anything in a T4D. The mesa kills everything.

 

I could keep going, but OP you already know all this cos you've used all these frames. I mean I was playing a defense the other day, and a trin I was playing with kept healing me. I totally took away my freedom to make mistakes and die like a man. she should be nerfed to the ground. In fact, no frame should have the ability to heal. Health orbs and restores should be removed from the game and you should lose your warframe when you run out of revives.

 

Infact the only frame in this game that's currently balanced is Ember. Her ult does an extremely high amount of fire damage (which is obviously the best elemental proc in the game), and is properly countered by duration and efficiency. OP we should totally keep making threads like this. If we keep this up, they'll definitely hear us.

Lol...

[Echowing]

I could keep going, but OP you already know all this cos you've used all these frames. I mean I was playing a defense the other day, and a trin I was playing with kept healing me. I totally took away my freedom to make mistakes and die like a man. she should be nerfed to the ground. In fact, no frame should have the ability to heal. Health orbs and restores should be removed from the game and you should lose your warframe when you run out of revives.

Extreme hyperbole doesn't make your argument more convincing, it just comes off as childish. My point was not that Trinity should be nerfed because she can heal, but rather that her healing is far and away the most powerful source of healing in the game (a max strength Oberon for example, can heal for 200 HP per second). Her powerful heal, when combined with her ability to stay at a 100% energy supply for an entire mission, leads to her being a required character in high-end content. This creates a vicious cycle of balance, wherein the content is then balanced around Trinity's presence, making her even more of a requirement, and making that content unnecissarily difficult (if not nearly impossible) for any team that does not bring her.

[nekrojiji]

Extreme hyperbole doesn't make your argument more convincing, it just comes off as childish. My point was not that Trinity should be nerfed because she can heal, but rather that her healing is far and away the most powerful source of healing in the game (a max strength Oberon for example, can heal for 200 HP per second). Her powerful heal, when combined with her ability to stay at a 100% energy supply for an entire mission, leads to her being a required character in high-end content. This creates a vicious cycle of balance, wherein the content is then balanced around Trinity's presence, making her even more of a requirement, and making that content unnecissarily difficult (if not nearly impossible) for any team that does not bring her.

 

You are right .... but not the heal amount makes Trinity a must in any dream squads.

What you say is right .... content in balanced around Trinity's presence and that is bad because, as I said in this topic before, at very high levels, Trinity's presence makes the squad invulnerable (regardless of enemy level) and the lack of Ttrinity makes the squad very very vulnerable.

 

So ... again .... not Trinity is the one with a problem ...... the game's way of resisting damage is bad.

 

Suggestions:

 

1: increase the base HP and heals by 10x so armor actualy means something.

2: Start prioritising the FOCUS System to alow play style variations (i.e. - increasing heal from red or blue orbs, a way to increase armor by a eprcent)

3: make ALL skills that give invulnerability or partial invulenrability less effective (because the incerase HP alows this now) so Trinity will not be a must in a dream squad.

Edited April 22, 2015 by nekrojiji

[Suthurn]

That's the point I'm trying to make though.  If we don't have frames that can constantly keep the team at 100% HP regardless of the damage coming their way, we don't need enemies with instant kill attacks like the bombards.  The fact that there is a frame that can prevent death as strongly as Trinity forces enemies to be much stronger than they need to be when fighting any other composition.

 

the enemies are not made that strong just because of trinity. that is simply DE borked sense of creating challenge. they create a brick wall you have to run an exploit team to get passed.

 

so people run exploit teams out of necessity

 

then people cry about exploit teams

 

and round and round we go...

 

 

personally id love to play ember as my main frame. i think she is one of the best looking in the game... but apparently DE only wants certain frames to be used much passed level 30 enemies so there you have it. we are players, not designers. we play the game as it is presented to us. 

[RealPandemonium]

personally id love to play ember as my main frame. i think she is one of the best looking in the game... 

So go ahead.  She does fine except when Grineer armor gets stupid or when there is a caustic eximus around.  

[BlueThingy]

Honestly I just dislike how boring Blessing. I'd rather blessing have some interesting mechanic added to it so it's not quite so "push button to receive immortality".  It can still be as strong but it seems somewhat... bleh I guess.

 

Maybe a scaling damage resist that changes with ally's total health. So as health goes down resistance goes up.  So you can't be easily one-shoted.  If you have 5% health you have 95% resistance.  So no matter what your current health is something still has to do all your max health in damage to kill you. Maybe it also gives you a large max-health boost. 

 

Or give players a temporary cap on the amount of damage they can take in one shot or create a single merged healthpool for all players on the team and give massive boosts to that.

 

I dunno, something. Anything. BLUGH. It's the support equivalent of a P42WIN button.  It's effective.  But it's so boooring.

 

 

As to the nerf... She doesn't seem to trivalize any major content yet.  But if they do make proper endgame and balance the enemies/frames/weapons then she's super definitely gonna need a look at.

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

I'd rather blessing have some interesting mechanic added to it so it's not quite so "push button to receive immortality".  It can still be as strong but it seems somewhat... bleh I guess.

 

Maybe a scaling damage resist that changes with ally's total health. So as health goes down resistance goes up.  So you can't be easily one-shoted.  If you have 5% health you have 95% resistance.  So no matter what your current health is something still has to do all your max health in damage to kill you. Maybe it also gives you a large max-health boost.

 

How do you think Bless works?

 

 

• Trinity restores 40% / 50% / 75% / 80% of her allies' shields and health within an unrestricted range. Allies will be granted increased damage resistance for 3 / 5 / 7 / 10 seconds.
  • Shield/health restoration is affected by Power Strength.
  • Damage resistance duration is affected by Power Duration.
  • Damage resistance is based on the lowest health value from the team and all his Companions when casting. If 90% is the highest percentage of health that's missing among all Tenno on the field, Trinity and her allies will gain 90% damage resistance for Blessing's duration, even if only 32% will be restored.
  • Blessing's damage resistance stacks with Link's damage resistance (e.g., 75% damage resistance from Link and 50% damage resistance from Blessing will yield 1 - (1 - 0.75)*(1 - 0.5) = 87.5% damage resistance until one ability expires).
  • Amount of damage resistance is displayed in the player UI upon casting.
• The effects of Blessing are applied to Trinity, Tenno, and Companions.
• Blessing does not grant immunity from Status Effects such as Knockdowns and staggers.
• Even if Trinity is downed while casting the healing and damage resistance will still be granted, and Trinity's allies will be able to safely revive her. The damage resistance for Trinity still applies, even while being downed.
• The damage resistance will not offer protection from damage taken in the Vampire Challenge of Nightmare Mode, but Blessing will heal Trinity and her allies.
• After the oxygen has completely run out in Survival, Blessing will replenish Trinity's health and shields as well as grant damage resistance. However, health and shields will still be depleted at a rapid rate, eventually leaving Trinity and her allies at 5 health. After an ally's shields have been depleted at this stage of the mission they will stay depleted, similar to the No Shields Nightmare mode challenge, and Blessing cannot recover them anymore.
• Works against The Grustrag Three.
• Does not restore or create overshields.
• Does not affect Rescue mission hostages or Defense mission objectives.
• While active, electricity-like energy waves will appear on all affected characters and companions; the color is affected by Trinity's energy color.
• Can be cast while in midair.
• Cast time delay of 0.5 seconds.
• Can be recast while active. Blessing's previous damage resistance will be overridden.

 

Edited April 22, 2015 by BloodForTheBloodGods

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

Honestly I just dislike how boring Blessing. I'd rather blessing have some interesting mechanic added to it so it's not quite so "push button to receive immortality".  It can still be as strong but it seems somewhat... bleh I guess.

 

Maybe a scaling damage resist that changes with ally's total health. So as health goes down resistance goes up.  So you can't be easily one-shoted.  If you have 5% health you have 95% resistance.

 

Oh dear... Is this a joke? I honestly cant tell.

 

Bluethingy you know I love you but are you communicating from the past?

 

I think you need to dust off your Trinity.

 

 - - - -

 

Unless this is a joke, the fact someone +1 that, shows there is something wrong with this forum.

Edited April 22, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[BlueThingy]

Oh dear... Is this a joke? I honestly cant tell.

 

Bluethingy you know I love you but are you communicating from the past?

 

I think you need to dust off your Trinity.

 

 - - - -

 

Unless this is a joke, the fact someone +1 that, shows there is something wrong with this forum.

 

No? I didn't play old Trinity much.  Is that how it used to work?

 

How do you think Bless works?

 

 

 

 I'm suggesting adaptive resistance.  Once you cast it the resistance grows/shrinks based on how much health the affected player possesses for the duration of the effect. 

[Aaira]

Old Trin used to always grant 100% immortality to all the teammates anywhere they were for full duration, along with a 100% shield/health heal.

It was @(*()$ insane, (and yet people still thought Rhino was tankier).

Edited April 22, 2015 by Aaira