The 'tenno Are Energy' Theory Is Busted

[Morec0]

Why would Zero-tech suits be a thing if the Sentients only had reactive adaption. Surely powered suits with more armour would be universally better even if the sentients had some degree of "armour piercing" offensive capability. "Zero tech" doesn't help against adaption, switching to chemical-slugthowers is just as adaptable-to as lasers or plasma weapons. Only if technology was uniquely vulnerable to them does a policy of zero-tech make sense.

 

I mean if adaption is the only issue then surely having a massive range of variable weapons would be the best thing. 

 

They'd just adapt to those, and then you'd have even further adaptations in the creatures to combat. These things adapted to whisper rounds in a second, variable weapons wouldn't change much.

 

Let's be honest, though, it wasn't these Zero-Tech soldiers that made a difference in the war, it was the Tenno. The Tenno were the ones who won it, the Tenno were the ones who had the weakness of the Sentients at their fingertips. These soldiers were probably just fodder, something to draw a little bit of fire. And you don't very well want to spend bookoo-bucks outfitting the fodder with expensive stuff...

 

There might very well be something more to it, though, just as there might be something more to all this "Oro" business between the Tenno and Sentients, but we'll need more information to find out. Clarification will come, in time.

 

One thing's certain, though: the Tenno were used in the Warframes because the Void gave the Warframes that touch of itself power - that "Void Shadow" - that would make them toxic to the Sentients. The Tenno were a pilot and basically security system for the Warframes against whatever the Sentients might be able to do with them - remove the Tenno, i.e. with The New Strange's Chroma, and you have a Warframe without its greatest weapon against the Sentients.

 

This helps to further clarify the role the Tenno had in the Warframe - given they seem perfectly able to use their powers without a Tenno (Mutalist Mesa, Rhino Codex Creature) - everything the Warframes did, everywhere they went, would carry with them the poison to the Sentient's entire race.

 

 

Unless we have word-of-god of any retcon or change we have no reason to assume such a thing. I'm still of the opinion that there has been no lore retcons at all since the beginning of the open beta, just additions and clarifications.

 

I follow the same principle. But that may just be because the idea of retcons in itself makes me want to puke out my own kidneys.

[SilentMobius]

They'd just adapt to those, and then you'd have even further adaptations in the creatures to combat. These things adapted to whisper rounds in a second, variable weapons wouldn't change much.

 

Let's be honest, though, it wasn't these Zero-Tech soldiers that made a difference in the war, it was the Tenno. 

 

Yes but there are limits, if you have a hard material then you have problems with being brittle, if you are soft then you risk yielding too much.

 

Also, why therefor default to "zero tech" weapons? it's just as easy to adapt to kinetic impact as it is to lasers. Same with Armour, why didn't they troops have reliable vac suits that could handle shrapnel? Unless tech was vulnerable.

 

The _only_ reason to zero out tech in warfare is if the tech itself is vulnerable. It doesn't matter that the Tenno ultimately won the war, the other soldiers were still there and there is no reason not to give all your troops the best chance. 

[Tengu147]

Why would Zero-tech suits be a thing if the Sentients only had reactive adaption. Surely powered suits with more armour would be universally better even if the sentients had some degree of "armour piercing" offensive capability. "Zero tech" doesn't help against adaption, switching to chemical-slugthowers is just as adaptable-to as lasers or plasma weapons. Only if technology was uniquely vulnerable to them does a policy of zero-tech make sense.

 

I mean if adaption is the only issue then surely having a massive range of variable weapons would be the best thing. 

 

Yes but there are limits, if you have a hard material then you have problems with being brittle, if you are soft then you risk yielding too much.

 

Also, why therefor default to "zero tech" weapons? it's just as easy to adapt to kinetic impact as it is to lasers. Same with Armour, why didn't they troops have reliable vac suits that could handle shrapnel? Unless tech was vulnerable.

 

The _only_ reason to zero out tech in warfare is if the tech itself is vulnerable. It doesn't matter that the Tenno ultimately won the war, the other soldiers were still there and there is no reason not to give all your troops the best chance. 

 

I see your point, but remember that we don't know the full extent as to how the Sentients adapt to technological weapons. What is described to us in the Crewman Synthesis entry is most likely an early version of a Sentient. A Proto-Sentient, for the lack of a better term. The Sentients from the Old War, and the current ones could be quite different from what we see in the entry but the concept is still the same: regenerative adaptation.

 

We also don't really know what Orokin Era technological weapons were like either.

 

I think the reason zero tech weapons and gear were employed was because it makes the Sentients less dangerous. Perhaps it's safer for them to adapt to regular bullets than say, a gun that shoots some sort of energy. It may be easier for the Tenno to kill them that way. Admittedly, I haven't really thought this through, haha, but that's my best guess.

 

Also, am I the only one who sees the resemblance between the Sentients and these guys?

 

You know, the Sentinels from X-Men: Days of Future Past?

 

Seriously? Adaptive Regeneration? Metallic skin? Heat based weaponry?

Edited July 14, 2015 by Tengu147

[SilentMobius]

I see your point, but remember that we don't know the full extent as to how the Sentients adapt to technological weapons.

 

Ignore the weapons then, How could reactivly adaptive Sentients make zero-tech _armour_ sensible?

Surely the only good reason to limit armour is if the armour itself can be made dangerous by the enemy?

 

You know, the Sentinels from X-Men: Days of Future Past?

 

Yep, and the method of defeating adaptive sentinels (In the whole X-Men continuity, not just that movie)  was to keep changing tactics and power/tech usage, not to strip yourself of that power/tech.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

 

It doesn't matter that the Tenno ultimately won the war, the other soldiers were still there and there is no reason not to give all your troops the best chance. 

...Cannon fodder.

[helix.hex]

wow this has gotten big quick.

 

i think we have figured out the theory is still in the air. and there is so much information that leans both ways

[arch111]

Remember that the Tenno were trained in Conclave using projectile "anscient" guns and steely bladed-weapons of the old world.

The soldiers in Crewman Synthesis used an energy round, the soldiers in Mag Prime Codex used rifles loaded with bullets.

Why? The reason being Sentient anatomy being vulnerable to impact/puncture rather than energy.

The name zero-tech can mean no tech as in non-robotic or cybernetic because Sentient-weapons are most effective against this. Corpus are so screwed.

There is another, far-fetched theory that they used zero-point-tech. I think it refers to dark energy, like a black hole.

I have nothing to support this since zero-tech have never been brought up after Mag P.

BUT we have Dark Sword and daggers that are infused with dark energy, so it WAS used.

Great to see lots of creative ideas forming now. It seems Tenno really are void-radiated batteries.

Remember Mirage? She only met defeat AFTER her void-energy was depleted. So it follows logic that she became easy prey then; thats why they swarmed her, the void-poison was at a minimum.

We should use void-energy plasmathrowers on these guys when they show!

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

BUT we have Dark Sword and daggers that are infused with dark energy, so it WAS used.

 

Isn't the 'dark energy' just radiation?

[Coryphaus]

The soldiers in Crewman Synthesis used an energy round,

 

WHERE is this stated?

[Morec0]

WHERE is this stated?

 

It's not. It's not even hinted at what kind of weapon the "whisper round" came from - energy or projectile. Given what we know about Orokin Tech it would make sense for it to be energy (even Braton Prime uses energy projectiles) but... well, that would hardly have been effective against the Sentients then.

 

All in all, I think it just comes down to a matter of the Void energy of the Tenno. We're DRIPPING of the stuff, infusing everything we touch with it - Melee Channeling, for example - and that's what's most dangerous to the Sentients about it, and possibly other lifeforms (hence why we mostly keep to ourselves, save Relays with specially chosen people by the Lotus).

Edited July 15, 2015 by Morec0

[Coryphaus]

Yes. Strictly speaking it is stated nowhere that whisper rounds are an energy weapon. Therefore he cannot make such an assertion.

 

He's creating his own fiction, and not furthering what we know of the fiction.

[Coryphaus]

Isn't the 'dark energy' just radiation?

 

Could also be sci-fi lingo for anti-matter/anti- erm... energy

[Morec0]

Isn't the 'dark energy' just radiation?

 

Looking at the wiki, at least, it just says "Dark Metals", no mention of energy. "Dark Metals" definitely just sound like fantasy/SciFi lingo. I don't think it means anything in particular about them.

 

 

 

And the more I think about this topic the more I just get pushed towards the "Void Spirit" idea. Not really ENERGY BEINGS, per se, but more in line with the floating consciousness, but also more than that due to the Void energy they carry with them. I dunno, I'd been hoping for a new Prime Codex to help with this, but by the looks of it we'll have to wait for Tombs of the Sentients to hopefully get a push in the direction of what's beneath the frames.

[Coryphaus]

Nah, it will just be suits that human Tenno put on. There are folks here who have great trouble distinguishing the game mechanic from what is meant to be the story.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Nah, it will just be suits that human Tenno put on. There are folks here who have great trouble distinguishing the game mechanic from what is meant to be the story.

Suits... Makes me think, a good easter egg/joke.... Ties!

[arch111]

Yes. Strictly speaking it is stated nowhere that whisper rounds are an energy weapon. Therefore he cannot make such an assertion.

He's creating his own fiction, and not furthering what we know of the fiction.

No it is not stated that a whisper-round ia energy. I am making an educated guess.

We are theory-crafting here, that is what we do.

Follow my reasoning.

The Tenno used weapons of the old world against the Sentients. The soldiers sent to the blue star armed with percussion-rifles.

This signifies a change, it is clear.

There is no reason to put any weight on what the Tenno used, unless what the Orokin had used before was.not working very well.

The more advanced they became, the more they lost.

So by this reasoning by the time the starfish was created they used their most advanced weaponry on it. Be this energy, sonic, it is not important.

Add to it that the Sentients themselves used heat and energy, where do you suppose they picked that up from? Orokin weapons perchance?

I might be wrong. Or not.

[Coryphaus]

I'm seeing the guessing, but I'm not seeing the education.

 

Strictly speaking, what you've written is not a "theory", but personal fiction.

 

Reasoning must begin from premises; premises themselves must come flow from established and widely accepted facts.

 

Facts which your personal fictions lack, such as it being conclusively determined that whisper rounds are an energy weapon, or that zero-tech means percussion rifles.

 

It is DE's job to flesh out the fiction. We don't have to do it for them.

We only need to make sure DE fiction has consistency and coherency and does not contradict itself.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Coryphaus

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

This talk of 'whisper rounds' is making me think of one of the Halo books. Contact Harvest, IIRC. around the beginning, Sgt. Johnson uses some fancy sniper rifle, created by ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence. If aren't familiar with Halo, ONI makes the CIA look like boy scouts) to asassinate some target. It fires a smaller round, but at 15,000 meters/second, it's been years since I read it, so I might be getting some details wrong, but it's like a railgun, creates shockwaves as it travels, and it rips apart fleshy things. IF I'm remembering this right, it was also quiet/silent. I wish that thing was in the games >:3

[Coryphaus]

Fun fact: rail guns that fire projectiles at 15,000 metres per second will also generate enough recoil to tear a human body in two. Either that or the backblast from the recoilless mechanism will be a weapon of mass destruction in itself.

[Jakcal]

This talk of 'whisper rounds' is making me think of one of the Halo books. Contact Harvest, IIRC. around the beginning, Sgt. Johnson uses some fancy sniper rifle, created by ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence. If aren't familiar with Halo, ONI makes the CIA look like boy scouts) to asassinate some target. It fires a smaller round, but at 15,000 meters/second, it's been years since I read it, so I might be getting some details wrong, but it's like a railgun, creates shockwaves as it travels, and it rips apart fleshy things. IF I'm remembering this right, it was also quiet/silent. I wish that thing was in the games >:3

The M99?

That's actually a coil / gauss gun.

Not sure if it's silent, but I doubt it considering how fast it is. It's going to make a sonic boom.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Jakcal

[arch111]

Coryphaus, I get it you are an absolutist, going by hard fact. The only problem with that is there exist very litte undisputable or undebatable "facts" in warframe.

I am of the mind that this has allways been intentional. We drive the Lore as much as DE themselves do, and many of us enjoy this hunt for the story and details.

Look at Tennobet, Grineer and Corpus lingo. Look at how long it took us to know about that.

Look at the many hidden Lore-pieces around the game, like the Orokitties, like the vague hints about the past, never quite explained, allways up for debate.

You say it is irrelevant to have a speculation about something DE have written about.

I say that can sometimes wild speculation leads us in directions we never would have considered, and sometimes we find the gems DE have carefully spread out in their universe.

[Coryphaus]

Fan-fueled personal fictions masquerading as the story proper, while indulged, are also a misdirection that does not add much literary or narrative value. Key is in how they are passed off as a reality rather than an interpretation. That film "Prometheus" generated a lot of fan created mental masturbation to attempt to fill in the gaps of a poorly generated story that was created via storyboard but not fleshed out in detail. Mass Effect's "Indoctrination Theory" conveniently misdirects from how it was in fact the player that was being subtly indoctrinated through the fourth wall.

 

Fans manufacturing "facts" out of thin air and depending on mass to push it to reality is in fact a hijacking of DE's right and responsibility to move the story as they see fit.

 

If the facts don't exist then you can't call it a fact.

 

If we deal with allegory and ambiguity we should call our personal fictions as they are: speculations or suggestions. I think doing otherwise is a dis-service.

 

But this is just my personal take on it.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Coryphaus

[AmethystWyrm]

Venturing a little out there, I'd agree that the Tenno aren't energy beings, but perhaps of another form of matter. The Void is where Orokin logic and reason failed, so we can't simply think about feasible forms of life from the traditional perspectives of flesh and blood. Perhaps an intermediate form between flesh and blood Orokin and Void energy being. This potential form could easily enough be a form of organic plasma or unknown form of matter. This would also fit in with the Warframes being suits and amplifiers for whatever energies these void-scarred beings possess/ed. It would also fit in with the capacity for the Tenno to inhabit a wide variety of different warframes, the illusion of facial features could be a hold over of the personality and memories of the organic origins of the Tenno manifesting themselves through the new plasma form. Of course such is known from the Lotus and Codex entries suggesting that the original personalities and memories of the Tenno may have been wiped out by whatever/whoever put the Tenno into cryostasis. This last bit of conjecture being from how we don't see modern Tenno being referenced to having facial expressions or the like. 

[arch111]

Oh, fact as Word of god or officially in game via codex, quest or event is one thing, no argument here.

However at one point in time, the script-langueage of the Tenno had no official meaning. It was just fancy graphics.

So those who said back then that they were actually letters were basically creating their own truth about it.

That they happened to be right, and proven to be so months later, is the point I am making.

I can not know that the Orokin favored energy-weapons. I can not know whisper-weapons were energy either.

I CAN only know that the Orokin army used percussion-rifles late in the war, when they were allready loosing the war.

It is my THEORY that all of the Orokins advanced weaponry had been rendered useless by the Sentients ability to adapt to it.

All they had left was low-tech, more or less what we use today.

You see, for me part of the fun is to sometimes throw wild ideas out there, and later wither find merit or laugh it off.

That is why we are still debating about what a Tenno is and if a warframe is alive or not, if the technocyte is responaible for the advances of the Orokin or not, if Hayden Tenno exist, if the Lotus is an AI or a real person and so on.

But as you say, the facts in game is what matters in the end, fanon and headcanon is separate.

[Kasseopea]

104 pages? Why? Alad V says he uses Tenno bones for Zanuka. Energy has no bones.