Assassination Missions Rework. Dynamic, Challenging, Stealthy.

[Burnthesteak87]

Challenges: Exterminate, etc.
-Incorporated in the First Post.



https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/451204-assassination-missions-rework-dynamic-challenging-stealthy/?p=5018741

Edited June 14, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[(PSN)robertgk2017]

I hate to rip off destiny, but how bout turning assassination missions into strike missions.

[Burnthesteak87]

I hate to rip off destiny, but how bout turning assassination missions into strike missions.

Can you be more clear? Can't say how Strike Missions are in Destiny, but if it's not related, then this is no topic to discuss it.

Postum Scriptum: I've never played Destiny nor got interested into it, all this brainstorm comes out of knowledge of old games and a mix of Spy 2.0 and Rescue 2.0.

I'm developing this concept officially by May, but I had it into my head by a lot of time ago.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[(PSN)robertgk2017]

Can you be more clear? Can't say how Strike Missions are in Destiny, but if it's not related, then this is no topic to discuss it.

Postum Scriptum: I've never played Destiny nor got interested into it, all this brainstorm comes out of knowledge of old games and a mix of Spy 2.0 and Rescue 2.0.

I'm developing this concept officially by May, but I had it into my head by a lot of time ago.

Imagine the current assassination missions where the distance between spawn and boss room is about 10 times what it normally is.

at roughly 25% 50% and 75% of the way there there is some kind of obstacle in the way. This could range from a miniboss, what is essentially a mobile defense on a locked door, or some kind of puzzle.

Also killing everything along the way should be in the best interest of the players because if you don't and get to an obstacle your gonna have a massive mob of enemies behind you.

When you finally get to the boss he will have tons more health and armor as well as several mechanics to deal with. No more solo rushing the mission in 30 seconds.

After killing the boss you have to make your way out to extraction. The distance between the boss room and extraction is equivalent to 2 times the length of a regular map.

Due to the size of the whole map memory issues could come up so dedicated servers could help and the 4 clients would only need to load their current tile and all adjacent tiles.

[Burnthesteak87]

Thanks for the informations.
Well, that's pretty similar to a generic Dungeon in any casual MMO.
Still better than the actual Assassination Missions. There are similar things and many differences from my concept. 
Anyway my concept is aiming into emphasizing different features:

• Errors and success of the player will have consequences on the Bossfight. There's a direct interaction.
•  It won't be forcefully a "gun n' run" mission, there's emphasis on stealth and parkour too.
• The player would have more freedom of choice about how to accomplish challenges.
• Also the lenght of the game shouldn't be about "how many KM to travel" or "how many enemies to kill", but "how much deepness every challenge should have".

Edited June 15, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[(PSN)robertgk2017]

Thanks for the informations.

Well, that's pretty similar to a generic Dungeon in any casual MMO.

Still better than the actual Assassination Missions. There are similar things and many differences from my concept.

Anyway my concept is aiming into emphasizing different features:

• Errors and success of the player will have consequences on the Bossfight. There's a direct interaction.
• It won't be forcefully a "gun n' run" mission, there's emphasis on stealth and parkour too.
• The player would have more freedom of choice about how to accomplish challenges.
• Also the lenght of the game shouldn't be about "how many KM to travel" or "how many enemies to kill", but "how much deepness every challenge should have".

All good points. I do agree that the length of the mission shouldn't be primarily based on the KM walk and how many kills to get.

However it makes sense that the level would be significantly longer than normal levels. This is because your fighting or sneaking your way into the very depths of the base where a vip would logically be located.

Also the level could as you mention have 3 separate routes all of which support the 3 "main playstyles" of run n gun, stealth, and parkour.

If the obstacles were to be used these paths could converge on them so players in a squad can take separate paths if they so choose.

Also the challenges you describebe could be rng'd around the whole map to give some variety on repeat runs.

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

Sounds fun.

[TheGrimCorsair]

I love this concept. It'd be even better if levels were allowed to sprawl a bit, so you could maybe circumvent certain challenge areas or detour to find bonuses you could, potentially, leverage against the assassination target.

[vashyoung]

and hopefully a new system for stealth kill... i wish they should get the idea from TENCHU

[Burnthesteak87]

I love this concept. It'd be even better if levels were allowed to sprawl a bit, so you could maybe circumvent certain challenge areas or detour to find bonuses you could, potentially, leverage against the assassination target.

I included it yet in the "Robbery" Challenge. Looking for Development Weapons or Void Artifact in the Boss' facility.

Or eventually in Sabotage Challenge.

 

and hopefully a new system for stealth kill... i wish they should get the idea from TENCHU

I loved that game from 90's.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Burnthesteak87]

I'm going to update some ideas soon.

[Burnthesteak87]

These Grineer Turrets + Hijack missions set up nice new ideas. Edited July 1, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Pepski]

I really like it. Makes you actually feel like an assassin, not a brute.

[Heptimus]

I must say I really like this idea! However, this feature would likely not be implemented into the game before Stealth 2.0 arrives (which might take a while). In addition to reworking Stealth mechanics and enemy AI, you would need hugely fleshed-out maps, with many more details, paths, standard enemy patrol locations, maintenance areas, ventilation ducts, break rooms, etc. The most important thing about the boss facility is that the tiles should not be randomly generated, but fixed. The reason for this is simply that some tiles don't fit together properly/nicely and might not fit the "atmosphere" or "theme" of the Boss, and do not look like a 'realistic' setup of a facility.

 

I have a few additions/opinions on some of the things you suggested:

 

1) Infiltration: This is the first 'stage' after you enter the mission, but is not mandatory to complete it (for rushers), however it unlocks the Challenges once completed. Lotus has given you a datamass which contains a dataworm to break the encryption of a console, bring it to a control panel with Administrator access. To access the room with the Admin Access Console, you can either hack the door (special difficulty with very, very limited time, Infiltrator mod almost required, will cause a lockdown and alert enemies if failed, Ciphers cannot be used) or infiltrate a break room (or something similar) and find a VIP with Admin acces, hold him hostage and force him to open the door.

You can choose to do this stealthily or do a head-on assault, how you do this does of course have consequenses. For example sneaking does not alert the enemies and they won't activate lockdown, reinforce the consoles security/encryption or send mobs to take you out. Rushing head-on alerts the enemies, they will come to kill you, reinforce the encryption and activate an area lockdown.

The console contains information about the facility, the boss and his (or hers) mobs. This leads to your Challenges. You should be able to download a facility-wide map, which lets you plan ahead and place waypoints directly on the map, with an overlay of the areas where you can find these challenges.

 

2) Assasination missions needs to be "rushable" and completeable by solo players. Some people simply prefer to rush (not me, if you were starting to wonder), and taking away that option will piss them off. That however, does not mean that it should be easy to rush the boss (as you said).

 

3) Boss Rush: Depending on what boss you are facing and how the Challenges affected the facility, the Boss does not necessarily need to be alert of the Tennos' presence. You remember Assasins Creed? Some of the leaders had no idea you were there, while others found out regardless of how stealthy you were. Sometimes a Boss Rush does not necessarily have to be anything else than clearing a Checkpoint full of Elite enemies, right outside the Boss Room door, though that would of course alert the boss.

 

4) Help from the Lotus: Again, depending on the Boss you are facing and the facility it recides in could determine what the Lotus would send you. If you were going stealthy, she could send you a "datamass" which contains lethal nerve toxins and the Tenno would have to sneak their way into the maintenance area and insert it into the "air freshener" slot. Then they would have to go to a janitors console nearby and activate the vents, killing most of the trash mobs in the facility, maybe even without alerting anyone. If you were going all out assault, she could send you portable life-support systems, since enemies would probably try to choke you out. She might even send a small tank, a portable shield generator or something, if the enemy decides to unleash everything at you (I'm talking insane amounts of enemies/turrets, perhaps the enemies even level up quite a bit).

 

5) Bodyguards: I like the concept; most Grineer would probably have bodyguards, considering the bosses are part of their military. The Corpus guys have tons of Moa cabinets, perhaps with "Special Edition" Moas.

If you are looking for inspiration on how these bodyguards / minibosses could work, I recommend a thread by Hastur609 called "Why not design your game around the way you actually want it played for once. (no TL;DR)". (sorry for no link, can't copy/paste anything on the forums while on Internet Explorer).

That thread is mainly about how shallow this game is; it's all about farming, doesn't have any interesting gameplay mechanics, doesn't give you what the Open Beta promo videos promised, and how the solution to that is dynamic teamplay mechanics with interesting sub-bosses.

 

This is a great feature which would add more logic, tactics, coordination, teamplay and suspense to the game. I really hope that [DE] staff reads the thread, and decides it's time for Stealth 2.0 and Boss 2.0 already :)

[Burnthesteak87]

Hey there! Thanks for the feedback!

1) Even if it's intriguing, for a matter of convenience I thought it was understood that the Facility had been researched yet... How would the Lotus explain you the hot features or the weak spots of the installation? The espionage/information team collected informations about it yet.
Also organizing an assault without having a decent knowledge of the target sounds rushed and reckless, not really an assassin's modus operandi.

2) Rushers will be pissed off anyway, and this doesn't mean it's not good for the Game. Solo players can do it. A little slower, but still they can, don't forget that to complete all Challenges you haven't a time limit.. I thought that eventually to make this feature more appealing, a good reward will fix every problem.

3) I know there should be a chance for a "totally-no-detection situation", but I implemented the Major Event/Boss Rush stage this way to make features match in the right way and to buildup the right mood.
Also I think that:

• after some time, in a hi-tech high-security area, if something goes wrong sooner or later the security will realize the block has been broken.
• I don't really like rushing "to surpass and totally avoid" a stage and a feature.
• I think it can be implemented by having a total success on challenges and detection tests, but again, you have a chance to make the Boss unprepared by successing both the Challenges and the Boss Rush... so it would be just superfluous.​

4) Yeah that's the spirit, I really like and i feel those ideas fits really nice in, but you have to understand the base mechanics of this Concept.

 

Whoever can design a Challenge but you've to keep in consideration that:

• You need to decide a Condition of success or failure. Challenges mustn't fail to a point where the logic of the mission gets ignored. So there can't be Challenges in which if you fail, you can't go on because of a logic hole. Example: (I met this problem in the Key Gathering challenge), "If you can't get a key for the Boss Area then you shouldn't be allowed to reach the Boss". There must be always an autonomous alternative.
• A single Challenge shouldn't interfere with the others. For example, "getting Alarmed a section of the Facility shouldn't put on alarm the section where a Stealth Condition Challenge is". I know it may sound unnatural, but it's a limit to make the system work. The compromise for this situation is Enemies aknowledge Tenno presence, but they keep alarmed only the areas where its activity has been spotted more recently.
• For a matter of comfort and convenience, Challenges shouldn't affect the asset of the disposition of the Facility, but only affect the BossRush and the BossFight.. It's a matter of Instanced Events, easier to manage.
  In your hint, diffusing a nervine gas to take out the surveillace sounds funny, but it's highly imbalanced if it would kill most of the thrash enemies in the Facility. That's why I thought about it for Extermination Challenges as an high-risk high-reward Option.
  But, hey it's just a matter of finding a coherent and logic way of implementing it.

5) I'd admit I've been inspired by MGS3 Ocelote Unit fight ;)
Found the thread and here's the link:
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/482857-why-not-design-your-game-around-the-way-you-actually-want-it-played-for-once-no-tldr/page-1
 

Edited July 21, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Heptimus]

Hm... I see. Your points are perfectly valid, just want to give you some updated thoughts.

 

1) If the Infiltration is not part of the Assasination mission itself, why not make it the node or one of the nodes prior / leading to the Assasination mission. That way, you still get the full Facility map on the Assasination mission, you get to play the infiltration team or Lone Tenno Operative, you get some Boss lore and other vital information about the Facility in a way that is immersive for the players.

 

2) Rewards, rewards, rewards. Praise the RNGods and RNGesus. Just like we always have done.

On a serious note, yeah, rewards need to be a bit more appealing considering these missions would likely take a bit longer than currently.

 

3) I don't really think it is superfluous to completely catch the Boss off guard. That makes me totally feel like a ninja / assassin. I get that you are able to reach the Boss while he is unprepared, but it is merely a matter of satisfaction.

 

4) Yeah, I guess it makes sense if the enemies activate sort of a facility-wide alarm, but specify "Relax guys, we got the threat (Tenno) locked down and under control in our area". Also, I didn't think about what you mentioned in the last point of 4), but it is very true. (Though i feel point 2 and 3 of 4) is basically the same).

 

As for the first point: If you were thinking about the tank, mobile shield or whatever; That was the consequense of rushing through the facility (though I did not really specify so, I apologize). I believe that the Condition for success would be Object HP, as you had to guard it while it mowed down hordes of mobs. The idea was that the Tenno had to take the heat off the tank, while opening a Blast Door (or some kind of reinforced door) to close in on the Boss Room. The amount of enemies and their difficulty would make it impossible to complete for Tenno of the level the Mission was designed for, hence the tank. Of course, the amount of enemies, their level increase (if any) and etc. could be discussed. After all, the players should be able to complete the Challenge. If the tank was destroyed, Lotus would simply drop in another one after the Landing Zone was cleared, so it would be impossible to fail the Mission because of a Challenge fail. The enemies around the LZ would return to their original level, so a short Extermination would be possible.

 

Pretty much the idea was that if you were charging head-on, without caring for Stealth at all as well as disregarding the Challenges, you would have to face a brutally difficult frontal assault, and the Challenges would change to fit for a head-on assault. As it should be, considering you are on your way to kill a high-ranking enemy unit.

This makes it possible for rushers (who don't like Stealth, tactics or whatever) to cheese everything on-screen spamming 4 with maxed Corrupted mods, just like they have always done, or for new players to learn that Stealth might be a very viable alternative if you can't handle the heat. Because if you remove this option, people are going to freak out, the ranting would be insane, and if [DE] thinks that this exact scenario might be an outcome, they might never rework the Assasination mission-type. Therefore, having this option would be a smart move, IMO.

 

The reason I thought about this comes from my experience with Spy 2.0 and Rescue 2.0. In public games, people show absolutely no interest of Stealth, and often causes a Mission Fail. This made me think (right now) that there should be different ways to start Assasination missions.

In the Star Chart, upon selecting an Assasination mission, a prompt would appear where you have to chose between a Frontal Assault or a Stealth Infiltration. Details about these two ways of completing the mission could be given by Lotus in the missions leading to the Assasination (as I stated above), or even add them somewhere in the Codex.

For example: Codeex -> Missions -> Assasination -> *Select Assasination Target* -> Info

However, selecting one of the ways to complete the mission would not change the Challenges initially. If you chose Fronal Assault, you are still able to complete the mission stealthily, but you are queued with other players who want to charge head-on.

 

5) Found something on YouTube but not sure if they were the correct videos. Watched the Ocelot Boss Fight and a vid where Snake took down these guys with berets and black masks (forgot the word). They were the Ocelot Unit, right?

[CanadianWolverine]

If you found a way to be inspired to have Archwing involved in these Assassination, I would be ever so grateful <3

 

That said though, pure awesome is what your well fleshed out idea is :D

Edited July 21, 2015 by CanadianWolverine

[Burnthesteak87]

 

In the Star Chart, upon selecting an Assasination mission, a prompt would appear where you have to chose between a Frontal Assault or a Stealth Infiltration. Details about these two ways of completing the mission could be given by Lotus in the missions leading to the Assasination (as I stated above), or even add them somewhere in the Codex.

For example: Codeex -> Missions -> Assasination -> *Select Assasination Target* -> Info

However, selecting one of the ways to complete the mission would not change the Challenges initially. If you chose Fronal Assault, you are still able to complete the mission stealthily, but you are queued with other players who want to charge head-on.

 

5) Found something on YouTube but not sure if they were the correct videos. Watched the Ocelot Boss Fight and a vid where Snake took down these guys with berets and black masks (forgot the word). They were the Ocelot Unit, right?

Yup, I think this is the most viable chance, as selecting on the node if playing Nightmare or classic.

Ocelot Unit in MGS3 was about a fight with an elite unit in a closed area. You had the opportunity to act as you like, stealthly, straight in, hiding...

If you found a way to be inspired to have Archwing involved in these Assassination, I would be ever so grateful <3

In later brainstorms I thought something related to Infiltration or related to the BossRush.. Imagine something like a boss set on self destruction an area of the spaceship to slow Tennos and so you need to cross the open space area, or set up a chase in open space.

Or eventually a spacewalk ala Dead Space to reach an isolated area or outer defense device.

It's not really clear atm.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Lord-KEK]

beautiful post man +1 also thanks for the support

[Burnthesteak87]

The new Tyl Regor bossfight is a step in the right direction, we can see:

- theatrical introduction,
- an arena,
- different phases,
- environmental threats,
- special units involved in the fight.

Anyway I feel that the fight is too much easy and Tyl Regor can easily be oneshotted with 6 formas weapon; in my opinion it would need a damage cap like the Behemot Juggernaut, and a fight more based on positioning and the risk of falling off the edge in the electrified water, which atm doesn't represent a risk, since dropping in will substitute your actual HPs with the Archwing's. Also getting out of the electrified water isn't a problem at all.

So the main flaws are:

- The Boss is oneshottable;
- Lackeys spawned aren't overwhelming nor a problem, they don't give any pressure to the player and can be easily taken down;
- In Phase 3 the water jets are supposed to push people in the pool, but they aren't strong enough, they cover a small area and aren't really hard to dodge;
- Electrified water is flawed, it doesn't represent a danger and getting out of it is too much easy;
- Even if the arena gets gradually submerged there is no real problem in it.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Burnthesteak87]

Spoiler next.

The Jordas Boss was somehow lacking, but some detail was nice. Like the Juggernaut breaking glasses to let the vaacum drain shields.

The Archwing fight could be better than this, I've seen similar better bossfights in other games.

This time the plot script was really nice.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Poppin_Fresh]

Great Ideas

[Nazrethim]

Awesome concept. I see this kind of thing becoming true in the future (Spy and Rescue got the same treatment after all) with the players having the option to charge all gun-ho or completing the task as silent as a shadow.

I have some nice ideas that may or may not fit:

-Since these missions will probably take more time (people who enjoy the challenge or just want any possible aditional reward) and to make them less of a hassle, change how the warframe parts are rewarded. Intead of getting a random part, we get the parts in sequential order: first kill>helmet, second>chassis, third>systems. After all three parts are obtained another reward table kicks in replacing the warframe parts (credit caches, void keys, weapon blueprints, rare mods, etc), the reward tables are reset every day. This will reduce the grind and make the missions actually enjoyable.

-Dinamic Mission Level, essenciatlly the level of the mission is always "apropiate" for the equipment you carry. This works for both veterans and new players: Veterans get a challenge and New players can try their skills against a boss despite not having the best weapons and mods.

-Give the players not only the chance to set up the fight, but also the option to not fight at all. After all 3 "sabotage" conditions are completed succesfully (and only if all 3 are successful) players gain access to another option: the Boss Rush or a final act of sabotage to kill the boss without actually facing him/her . For example: Boss decides to order  his/her ship  to be prepared and get out before the Tenno reach him/her, instead of rushing to the boss within the time limit, players sabotage the ship to make it explode when the boss boards it. If the Boss decides to set the ship/base to self destruct, the tenno hack the security protocol to lock the boss in his room as the entire place collapses on him.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Nazrethim

[Burnthesteak87]

Thanks for the feedback and for your ideas!

I agree that this rework would need a better adaptation for the loot table, your idea is quite nice, with the multiple reward table and daily reset, but this would force you to run the mission at least three times consecutively in a day to first complete the Warframe and subsequently to farm items from the second table.
This sounds funny on paper, but would require longer farming time spans instead than performing quick runs that can fit whatever part of the daily routine. Even the actual system, boring as it is, would be more practical.
I still think that a Syndacate points or a Token system like most MMOS would be the best.

I think that a dynamic mission difficulty basing on the Conclave or Gearscore of every party member sounds a bit intricate to implement, I can't say it being sure 100%.
All that I know is DE explained during a Devstream that they have been working on a tool to raise the difficulty basing on player preference.
 

Your third proposal would be nice from a theatrical point of view but I think it goes toward the logic of playing an Assassination Mission, which consists of facing and fighting the Boss itself.
Also in my concept if a party is successfull into completing every task the Boss would be weakened enough, I don't see the necessity of taking it out like this >.<
Let's see if we can adapt it!
 

Edited October 16, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Nazrethim]

Thanks for the feedback and for your ideas!

I agree that this rework would need a better adaptation for the loot table, your idea is quite nice, with the multiple reward table and daily reset, but this would force you to run the mission at least three times consecutively in a day to first complete the Warframe and subsequently to farm items from the second table.

This sounds funny on paper, but would require longer farming time spans instead than performing quick runs that can fit whatever part of the daily routine. Even the actual system, boring as it is, would be more practical.

I still think that a Syndacate points or a Token system like most MMOS would be the best.

I think that a dynamic mission difficulty basing on the Conclave or Gearscore of every party member sounds a bit intricate to implement, I can't say it being sure 100%.

All that I know is DE explained during a Devstream that they have been working on a tool to raise the difficulty basing on player preference.

 

Your third proposal would be nice from a theatrical point of view but I think it goes toward the logic of playing an Assassination Mission, which consists of facing and fighting the Boss itself.

Also in my concept if a party is successfull into completing every task the Boss would be weakened enough, I don't see the necessity of taking it out like this >.<

Let's see if we can adapt it!

 

Yeah, that 3 times to start actually getting rewards would extend farming time. I can think of two alternatives:

-Depending on the challenges completed you can get an extra reward similar to 3 caches in Sab: No challenge, Warframe part awarded in a Helm>chassis>system loop; 1 challenge completed: Warframe part+a resource bundle or credits cache ; 2 challenge completed: Warframe part+larger resource bundle or credit cache ; all 3 challenges completed: Warframe part+large resource bundle or credit cache+Void key or Rare mod.

-The game checks your inventory and will award you warframe parts bp if you don't have one of the following items: the warframe part bp, the warframe part or the warframe itself. If you have any of those you receive a reward from the other reward table.

 

We already have something similar, go to Vor in Mercury and look both his level and the level of the grineer he spawns, they are higher level if you bring high level stuff.

 

The whole "you don't face the boss" was inspired by another game called Mark of the Ninja, in that game which is entirely focused on stealth you can face the enemy face to face (which usually ends with you being gunned down) or use subterfurge to kill them without actually needing to face them. This feature would be completely optional, since the boss is very weak you may as well not face him and kill him by other means, good for undergeared players who can't quite figure out how to kill the boss and wish the rewards of the mission and advanced players who just find a little anoying certain bosses.

 

Ideas are flexible. :)