Founders Not So "founders" Anymore.

[Nod_Off]

And there was me thinking the founder package was about supporting DE in the development of a game you might actually think is great and has awesome potential.

But let's talk about the founders package and call it what it really is (and what I personally support and can appreciate): crowd funding.

Due to the success of the open and closed beta DE increased manpower on the project and due to the funding through the founders project was actually able to do so.

Asking to close their, current, prime income, Ignoring the fact that DE is an established company with a lot of people on their payroll and that people tend to like to receive paychecks for the work they do....

It's literally your boss saying to you "Sorry, we can't pay your wage this month because our clients stopped feeling special... but you know, they are special now, rejoice!". Try to pay your mortgage with that.

 

This is not a constructive discussion, this is just people not caring about others at all because they want to be that special snowflake....

 

edit: typo

 

Also, I think the idea of changing it in name, and reward to "Supporter" package, is very appropriate, and called for. As well as fair. 

Founder = Closed beta, as DE stated it was before flip flopping.

Supporter = Open Beta/Live

Edited May 17, 2013 by Zackai

[Ruzu]

See this is what I find funny. The people that donated during closed beta, donated to support DE knowing the game could flop, as there was barely any content at that time. 

 

The people donating now do not have to worry about it flopping.

 

 

Also, if we are going to call each other entitled, then by all means, if you came in with the rest of the general public during the Open Beta, and expect to be called a founder, you are Entitled.

 

Why not supporter? It is much more appropriate. 

 

I find your perspective intriguing. Basically what you're trying to say is that the people who took the greatest risk in financial investment of a game whose future was sketchy at best deserve at least some kind of special privilege or attention. How does that make any sense? If some hypothetical game called "Space Wars" was going into bankruptcy, and I took the incredibly high risk of giving $500,000 to support it, with it becoming an incredibly successful game 1 year later making hundreds of million per quarter, do I deserve to be viewed as some kind of savior/holy messiah? I see no logical reason why I should. I took the risk to help make it successful, but that doesn't mean the entire community should bow down to me. It was a risk, a gamble. That's all. You chose where to put your faith by letting your money talk. That's all there is to it.

 

I don't care if people call or see me as a founder. I'm uninterested in such things. The only reason I go on the forums is to offer my logical, rational opinions on different subjects. I generally avoid threads that talk about entitlement or privilege, but since this game is still in a beta phase, such visits are acceptable to me. My purchase was me telling the team at DE and the warframe community in general that I really love this game and want to see more content coming out, faster, and more efficiently. I mean, isn't that why you decided to purchase the highest tier package?

[Nod_Off]

I find your perspective intriguing. Basically what you're trying to say is that the people who took the greatest risk in financial investment of a game whose future was sketchy at best deserve at least some kind of special privilege or attention. How does that make any sense? If some hypothetical game called "Space Wars" was going into bankruptcy, and I took the incredibly high risk of giving $500,000 to support it, with it becoming an incredibly successful game 1 year later making hundreds of million per quarter, do I deserve to be viewed as some kind of savior/holy messiah? I see no logical reason why I should. I took the risk to help make it successful, but that doesn't mean the entire community should bow down to me. It was a risk, a gamble. That's all. You chose where to put your faith by letting your money talk. That's all there is to it.

 

I don't care if people call or see me as a founder. I'm uninterested in such things. The only reason I go on the forums is to offer my logical, rational opinions on different subjects. I generally avoid threads that talk about entitlement or privilege, but since this game is still in a beta phase, such visits are acceptable to me. My purchase was me telling the team at DE and the warframe community in general that I really love this game and want to see more content coming out, faster, and more efficiently. I mean, isn't that why you decided to purchase the highest tier package?

 

 

No one is asking anyone to bow down.

 

 

DE made it clear to those in the Closed Beta that the Founders Package was exclusive to those in the Closed Beta. Then ended up letting it continue...

 

That is what is upsetting.

 

People purchased it under one perception, and then they changed it last minute.

 

 

 

 

I cant even tell you how many people I knew who scrambled to pull cash together to purchase the packages before they were closed, only to have them left wide open for the general public.

 

 

I do not feel entitled, and do not want to come across as such, but when you are sold on one idea, and fed another it is annoying. Is this concept really that hard to grasp?

 

 

I also do not understand the idea that "Founder" applies to a Live game. I didnt want to go there again... But please, debate with me that this game is not "Live."

 

 

It is open to the general public.

It is on Steam.

It is 18th on Raptr.... 

 

 

 

If that is not "Official" or "Live" I am the Easter bunny...

[Blatantfool]

I think it is a little unreasonable to get upset about the extra time DE has left the Founders Packages available. I don't remember seeing it advertised on the Founder's page that there was any particular end date or that it was being sold with the intention of creating a VIP Yacht club out of the Closed Beta Founders.

 

 

 But to each there own. This thread has been a particularly interesting read through.

[Nod_Off]

I think it is a little unreasonable to get upset about the extra time DE has left the Founders Packages available. I don't remember seeing it advertised on the Founder's page that there was any particular end date or that it was being sold with the intention of creating a VIP Yacht club out of the Closed Beta Founders.

 

 

 But to each there own. This thread has been a particularly interesting read through.

 

Honestly? There was absolutely a set end to it before it was extended.

 

They even had up reminders to get it before it ended. 

 

I also think it is unreasonable to think that people are even asking for a "VIP Yacht club."

 

If you remember correctly the only way to obtain keys to pass out to friends was to "buy" into the Founders  "club."

Edited May 17, 2013 by Zackai

[Loswaith]

...

I also think that most people are not reading or getting the main talking points of this thread so let me recap for those who may not be clicking the "Page 1" button. 

 

 -Some users think the founders tag is loosing its "Face value" because the program has been open too long and some members of the community have supported the game during closed beta and the earlier parts of open beta. 

 

- Would you support a "Supporters program" instead of continuing with the "Founders program" due to the games current lifespan? Are we past the 'Founding" stage and more into the "Supporting" stage as far as money support from the community?

 

- Would you support a "Premium time" type of transaction where players could still support DE with money and gain benefits such as (AP boost/Credit boost, higher % for rare drops, etc)

I think its a two fold issue on the devaluation of the founders name, attitudes and perception.  Personally I could care less about the founders tag, and some discussion in this topic (aside from the initial post) comes across as being very eliteist (whether thats intened or not), simply because of when you paid some money.  This percieved eliteism is hurting the founders tag more than many people having it. 

Whether Warframe and DE reach the final stages depends on everyone inputing money, not just those first few so I realy dont see how eariler funding is of any more or less value than current funding.  Many companies have closed up shop right before release because of running out of funds.  Expences arent just at the eairly end of development, in fact they are often less at eairly development than later development as resources are spend on the project in eairly stages.

 

Personally I feel the closed beta people should be noted for their input so I realy dont think the vandal items (Lato and Braton specifically) should ever be made available again as that devalues the input closed beta folks put into the game.  Should it be noted just because people happened to spend money then? I personaly dont think so.  Reguardless of whether someone bought founders/platinum in closed beta is irrelevant to their input while in closed beta, which I feel is the aspect that should be noted.

Im sure there are some people also that never got into closed beta that wanted to as well as most closed betas have finite numbers (I doubt DE had it open to unlimied numbers), or are limited to certain regions or people simply didnt know about the game before that.  You cant be expected to be ontop of every single game that will be released.  These people may have spent cash on warframe in closed beta, but simply didnt get the oppertunity.  Sure it sucks you were told it would be only for closed beta, but if thats the only reason you were in closed beta is for the kudos, rather than helping DE make a great game, then maybe you should rethink your motivations.

 

Whether you have a 'supporters' or 'founders' program doesnt bother me. As the current one stands the founders program I see more as the 'collectors edition' of Warframe, a good deal with some extra stuff if you waned to pay a bit more for the game.

I am likely to support it if it stops the somewhat elitest attitudes, at the end of the day it is the percieved community attituded that will eventually make or break a game.  There are many examples where the general attitude of a games community can drive people away from it.

 

I wouldnt like to see a 'premium' time either as it can add to the perception that a game is pay-to-play as opposed to free to play.  Boosters and things like that do the same thing and have the advantage thats not the primary purpose for the money given, so doesnt come with the perception that it is needed or a pay-to-play feature.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Loswaith

[Blatantfool]

Honestly? There was absolutely a set end to it before it was extended.

 

They even had up reminders to get it before it ended. 

 

 I think I remember what you are talking about. I've seen you reference it earlier too. I'm being perfectly honest when I say that it is likely I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

 

 Still, I'm not seeing the harm. This makes DE good money and it is a seriously good deal for players pitching in. It couldn't be more win-win.

[Ruzu]

No one is asking anyone to bow down.

 

 

DE made it clear to those in the Closed Beta that the Founders Package was exclusive to those in the Closed Beta. Then ended up letting it continue...

 

That is what is upsetting.

 

People purchased it under one perception, and then they changed it last minute.

 

 

 

 

I cant even tell you how many people I knew who scrambled to pull cash together to purchase the packages before they were closed, only to have them left wide open for the general public.

 

 

I do not feel entitled, and do not want to come across as such, but when you are sold on one idea, and fed another it is annoying. Is this concept really that hard to grasp?

 

Please read the earlier post I made that deals with rational decision making and impulse buying. I understand your grief of false advertisement, but I decline to continue beating a dead horse. My only advice is to stop making impulse decisions. That's a very bad, and very horrible habit.

[Nod_Off]

Ruzu, on 16 May 2013 - 9:26 PM, said:

Please read the earlier post I made that deals with rational decision making and impulse buying. I understand your grief of false advertisement, but I decline to continue beating a dead horse. My only advice is to stop making impulse decisions. That's a very bad, and very horrible habit.

I never stated it was an impulse decision, I thought long and hard before I spent $200+ on this game, and continue to help fund it and a clan.

Blatantfool, on 16 May 2013 - 9:23 PM, said:

I think I remember what you are talking about. I've seen you reference it earlier too. I'm being perfectly honest when I say that it is likely I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

Still, I'm not seeing the harm. This makes DE good money and it is a seriously good deal for players pitching in. It couldn't be more win-win.

No worries man.

I do not at all want to end any funding for DE. But feel that since it was advertised one way, and delivered another. The least they could have done was to change the name of it...

It was meant to reward support during closed beta. It should have been adjusted when it went live. I am glad they did not stop it all together, but wish it had been changed..

Anyways, everyone has their own opinions. It seems some people can not see it objectively, and that is fair, as there are two views here if you simplify it, and one view can not know the feelings of the other, because their experience on the matter is only half of the equation. The other side knows both sides.

Oh well, they will continue to muddle the "Founder" program, nothing will change it.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Zackai

[ReiganCross]

Remember when the Founders package actually meant that you got some extra closed beta keys that you could then share around to your friends? Sure they were quite worthless since companies kept giving them out like candy, but it still felt kind of nice that they gave us something like 9 beta keys when you became a founder... It used to meant something... I like those times, silly as though they may be.

[Dagnome]

Please read the earlier post I made that deals with rational decision making and impulse buying. I understand your grief of false advertisement, but I decline to continue beating a dead horse. My only advice is to stop making impulse decisions. That's a very bad, and very horrible habit.

 

Please refrain from attacking a individuals rights to make their own decisions as it is not in the good spirit of this discussion. 

 

As to support the whole "Founders pack ending" it was told to the CBT that the founders program would be ending but then DE did choose to extend the program. Now keep in mind that my original suggestion and the topic of discussion is not whether or not to shut down the founders program and never consider or pursue an alternative to funding DE, I am in full support of their always being a program similar to the "founders program" for players who may enter the game in Open Beat and beyond. The question more or less boils down to should we call someone who comes into the game tomorrow a founder? I understand that there may be a huge difference in opinion between the Closed Beta Testers and the players who joined during open beta which Zackai is trying to point out, some of us who may have enrolled in the founders program (Like me) during closed beta may feel that the title is being "sold out" (So to speak)to the players just joining the game now for some funding money. I am in no way accusing DE of anything (Love you guys) but this may be where the "entitlement" argument is coming from? 

 

My suggestions and what is being discussed is not a means to end players from supporting the game, we want the amazing support the community has given DE to continue, but what do we call these players who are just joining now? Are they truly founders or are they simply putting money down for promised goods? 

 

(I may be playing the devils advocate here to keep the discussion going)

[xxx7]

Didn't have time to read all the posts, but I do agree with original poster. Prime Exy is losing value each day, and I see the prime version just as often - if not more -  than the standard Excalibur.

[Nod_Off]

Please refrain from attacking a individuals rights to make their own decisions as it is not in the good spirit of this discussion. 

 

As to support the whole "Founders pack ending" it was told to the CBT that the founders program would be ending but then DE did choose to extend the program. Now keep in mind that my original suggestion and the topic of discussion is not whether or not to shut down the founders program and never consider or pursue an alternative to funding DE, I am in full support of their always being a program similar to the "founders program" for players who may enter the game in Open Beat and beyond. The question more or less boils down to should we call someone who comes into the game tomorrow a founder? I understand that there may be a huge difference in opinion between the Closed Beta Testers and the players who joined during open beta which Zackai is trying to point out, some of us who may have enrolled in the founders program (Like me) during closed beta may feel that the title is being "sold out" (So to speak)to the players just joining the game now for some funding money. I am in no way accusing DE of anything (Love you guys) but this may be where the "entitlement" argument is coming from? 

 

My suggestions and what is being discussed is not a means to end players from supporting the game, we want the amazing support the community has given DE to continue, but what do we call these players who are just joining now? Are they truly founders or are they simply putting money down for promised goods? 

 

(I may be playing the devils advocate here to keep the discussion going)

 

I am just going to start making you write my posts. You took the words out of my mouth, in a far better way. =)

[ReiganCross]

Also... Aren't you guys concidering the whole "This game is ready" too soon?... Dude, really, this game barely have a story, no characters (No, the players are not characters, and the villians are too cartoonish to be real characters), no true challenge to speak of at all apart from a bunch of meatbags, only a half-decent sound work and no true soundtrack to speak of, huge lack of true character customization (not just appearence, but, like, every Loki warframe will play the same.)...

 

And the list goes on, no true Social feature (Being added now), no real end goal to speak of (Aside from Dojo, but that's just vanity.), no big badies to gang up against. Not to mention that the gameplay should be pretty far from finished, curently there is no real need for teamwork since everyone can do everything with every character, absolutely no sense of stealth (although there won't be much stealth if they keep getting us increasingly more powerful), wall-running is still glitching and honestly feels kind of clunky, we currently are unable to see our weapon stats or any real way to see our current power level. In fact, even their leveling system isn't complete yet, they didn't added the new "prestige" upgrade of the weapons and the mastery rank is kind of attrocious with how slow and sluggish it progresses.

 

You guys keep arguing about changing the status because you feel like being a Founder has lost it's meaning, but i say we KEEP the tittle since there is still so much work to be done! We aren't done founding this game and i don't think it should be closed until ALL of those assets have come together to form a truly whole game experience! I say that people that are coming today are, too, Founders, in every merit of the word!

[Nod_Off]

Also... Aren't you guys concidering the whole "This game is ready" too soon?... Dude, really, this game barely have a story, no characters (No, the players are not characters, and the villians are too cartoonish to be real characters), no true challenge to speak of at all apart from a bunch of meatbags, only a half-decent sound work and no true soundtrack to speak of, huge lack of true character customization (not just appearence, but, like, every Loki warframe will play the same.)...

 

And the list goes on, no true Social feature (Being added now), no real end goal to speak of (Aside from Dojo, but that's just vanity.), no big badies to gang up against. Not to mention that the gameplay should be pretty far from finished, curently there is no real need for teamwork since everyone can do everything with every character, absolutely no sense of stealth (although there won't be much stealth if they keep getting us increasingly more powerful), wall-running is still glitching and honestly feels kind of clunky, we currently are unable to see our weapon stats or any real way to see our current power level. In fact, even their leveling system isn't complete yet, they didn't added the new "prestige" upgrade of the weapons and the mastery rank is kind of attrocious with how slow and sluggish it progresses.

 

You guys keep arguing about changing the status because you feel like being a Founder has lost it's meaning, but i say we KEEP the tittle since there is still so much work to be done! We aren't done founding this game and i don't think it should be closed until ALL of those assets have come together to form a truly whole game experience! I say that people that are coming today are, too, Founders, in every merit of the word!

 

I agree that they have work to do. But that does not change was DE told us, and what they have done instead. 

 

That is really what is being discussed here at the core of it all. 

[ReiganCross]

I agree that they have work to do. But that does not change was DE told us, and what they have done instead. 

 

That is really what is being discussed here at the core of it all. 

 

Perhaps they have made a mistake by saying, "it will end on March 16." But i say we cut them some slack for this only means that they are not close to calling their game a finishing product just yet. I wouldn't say the game is even HALF finished by this point since there is so much still lacking from this game, from voice-work, ambience sounds, a true world for us to explore, and so on and so forth...

 

Also, it's not really all that bad. Sure they kind of switched around, but it's not like you made a bad purchase, did you? And they did announced that they would be keeping upgrades after a month, so you could have just gotten a Disciple founder and THEN upgraded, instead of before.

[Worira]

Anyways, everyone has their own opinions. It seems some people can not see it objectively, and that is fair, as there are two views here if you simplify it, and one view can not know the feelings of the other, because their experience on the matter is only half of the equation. The other side knows both sides.

 

 

haha good one

[Nod_Off]

haha good one

I only stated facts. Open Beta Tester, were not in the Closed Beta, and so can only know the Open Beta side. 

[Nod_Off]

Perhaps they have made a mistake by saying, "it will end on March 16." But i say we cut them some slack for this only means that they are not close to calling their game a finishing product just yet. I wouldn't say the game is even HALF finished by this point since there is so much still lacking from this game, from voice-work, ambience sounds, a true world for us to explore, and so on and so forth...

 

Also, it's not really all that bad. Sure they kind of switched around, but it's not like you made a bad purchase, did you? And they did announced that they would be keeping upgrades after a month, so you could have just gotten a Disciple founder and THEN upgraded, instead of before.

 

 

I did not, but some people scrambled to scrape pennies to afford the package before it was gone.... Is that fair to those people regardless of their reasoning's? 

 

 

It is bait and switch and is disappointing is all. 

[ReiganCross]

I did not, but some people scrambled to scrape pennies to afford the package before it was gone.... Is that fair to those people regardless of their reasoning's? 

 

 

It is bait and switch and is disappointing is all. 

 

I sold some old RPG books i had with me so i could afford the Master Package... And honestly? I don't really feel the sting. I would have done it being it sooner or later anyways, they just made it happen sooner rather then later and i don't really regret having rushed the process.

 

And yes, it WAS ultimately a Bait and Switch, there's no denying it, but i would argue to cut them some slack on that one because they were actually rushing for a process they shouldn't really have tempered with. (And i'm the one guy that usually bangs on DE hard with a large stick, so if I'M the one willing to cut them some slack, maybe they do diserve it?)

[Worira]

I only stated facts. Open Beta Tester, were not in the Closed Beta, and so can only know the Open Beta side. 

 

And you didn't join during open beta, so you can't know the "joined during open beta" side. Whether you were there during it is beside the point.

[7.T.]

   I understand the OP about wanting the title of Founder to have at least a little prestige. I have been there for other games from the beginning but I simply didn't know about this game soon enough to participate in the closed beta otherwise I'd have genuinely wanted to be here from the start. So at the same time I'm also glad I was able to purchase the Hunter Package then upgrade every paycheck to Grand Master to support this game. If the Founder's one ended with the CB I would have still bought whatever other package was available to show support (ok ok,and for the perks). Since the Founder's was still there, I bought it. Just saying, there are also people who didn't know about the game before and would have been legitimate CB testers if they could. So coming from that point of view, I think at least the option to upgrade should remain until open beta is over though I also understand when people say this is a very open beta.

[ReiganCross]

   I understand the OP about wanting the title of Founder to have at least a little prestige. I have been there for other games from the beginning but I simply didn't know about this game soon enough to participate in the closed beta otherwise I'd have genuinely wanted to be here from the start. So at the same time I'm also glad I was able to purchase the Hunter Package then upgrade every paycheck to Grand Master to support this game. If the Founder's one ended with the CB I would have still bought whatever other package was available to show support (ok ok,and for the perks). Since the Founder's was still there, I bought it. Just saying, there are also people who didn't know about the game before and would have been legitimate CB testers if they could. So coming from that point of view, I think at least the option to upgrade should remain until open beta is over though I also understand when people say this is a very open beta.

 

And what i'm saying is that you don't really need to be from Closed Beta to think that you're not founding this game... You came in a time where we were barely able to figure out that wierd-&#! Mod 2.0 system that Steve actually apoligized to us about. You are going trough the harships of playing an essentially incomplete game same as everyone else in this boat, and it's not CBT that will make you more or less of a "Founder".

 

The foundation has not ended, we need to keep moving foward!

[Nod_Off]

   I understand the OP about wanting the title of Founder to have at least a little prestige. I have been there for other games from the beginning but I simply didn't know about this game soon enough to participate in the closed beta otherwise I'd have genuinely wanted to be here from the start. So at the same time I'm also glad I was able to purchase the Hunter Package then upgrade every paycheck to Grand Master to support this game. If the Founder's one ended with the CB I would have still bought whatever other package was available to show support (ok ok,and for the perks). Since the Founder's was still there, I bought it. Just saying, there are also people who didn't know about the game before and would have been legitimate CB testers if they could. So coming from that point of view, I think at least the option to upgrade should remain until open beta is over though I also understand when people say this is a very open beta.

 

I think this is an insanely fair assessment  I would have been fine with keeping upgrades going for those who purchased ahead of time. And I also understand not know about the game in advance. 

 

Nice post. 

[7.T.]

And what i'm saying is that you don't really need to be from Closed Beta to think that you're not founding this game... You came in a time where we were barely able to figure out that wierd-&#! Mod 2.0 system that Steve actually apoligized to us about. You are going trough the harships of playing an essentially incomplete game same as everyone else in this boat, and it's not CBT that will make you more or less of a "Founder".

 

The foundation has not ended, we need to keep moving foward!

   That's true. Just thought I'd mention that aspect. Also, to reply to some things said in other previous posts, I'm sure other Packages of some kind will replace the Founder one as far as D.E.'s income is concerned. Anyway, yes, I think there is still "founding" (if you will) going on especially with the current topics in the Design Council so it does make sense for it to be available still. Maybe what is needed is a different approach to the Solar Landmark? I don't know lol