Conclave Issues That Make It A Horrible Experience, Not Fun, And Not Fair.

[Aodan]

So, been putting some time into conclave, and have had some fun matches, but lately the lack of balance and horrible implementations have made it fairly unbearable if your not using some type of "cheese".

 

You got your Chroma users, with his base 350 armor, he doesn't even need to use his abilities to have an advantage against 80% of players, add using his 3 correctly with Kogake + MM, you basically can't win even if you got a bunch of good shots/hits ahead of him.

 

You have your Tonkor poppers, like someone else mentioned, it basically replaces shotguns and if your just lobbing them into a spawn, you will eventually get kills or just lay them down on a path that you see majority of players going, seen people rack up 30-50 kills in one game. Why this weapon is even in pvp is beyond me.

 

Nyx with Absorb is a get out of jail free card esp once you grab the aug mod.

 

Lets not get into coptering and how it makes CTF© mode pointless/ a copter into someone and shoot instead of actually aiming.

 

 

I'm not saying that you CAN't beat these, or that I need to get gud. I've beaten them plenty and out played many, but it starts to get just exhausting to keep seeing the same thing over and over again. I've tried out the cheese as well and it is significantly easier to maintain a high KD and win with it. When these options become the mainstay of pvp matches, it is easily broadcasting to the developers that change needs to happen. I'm not saying nerf, I'm not saying get rid of, but there are some bad decisions on what is currently implemented in conclave.

 

In a fast pace pvp match, a combination of these mentioned makes it just not fun to play. I'm a HUGE pvp buff and have almost always played MMOs/Vgames simply for pvp. If Overwatch or Fable Legends were out, I'd probably not even waste time writing this post, but this is in hopes that with Parkour 2.0 and some right decisions, DE can make conclave something not aggravatingly annoying to play.

 

But on a real note, DE you need to make some deep changes and develop a streamline on how you want Conclave to feel and be balanced on cause slapping Chroma, Rhino, and Nyx + coptering and the Tonkor shows a lack of understanding balance to me.

[Mastikator2]

Tonkor should never have been added, I hope they never add Ogris, Penta, Opticor, Angstrum or Castanas.

[Whiteaggro]

All weapons in time, I think, have their place one way or nerf-other in the new PvP mode. I agree with all points stated at the OP and I hope all these issues will be taken into consideration by those in charge of balancing conclave. Although I doubt they will notice.

[rockscl]

Tonkor should never have been added, I hope they never add Ogris, Penta, Opticor, Angstrum or Castanas.

 angstrum is already in tho, its not very profitable

[Feyangol]

So, been putting some time into conclave, and have had some fun matches, but lately the lack of balance and horrible implementations have made it fairly unbearable if your not using some type of "cheese".

 

You got your Chroma users, with his base 350 armor, he doesn't even need to use his abilities to have an advantage against 80% of players, add using his 3 correctly with Kogake + MM, you basically can't win even if you got a bunch of good shots/hits ahead of him.

 

You have your Tonkor poppers, like someone else mentioned, it basically replaces shotguns and if your just lobbing them into a spawn, you will eventually get kills or just lay them down on a path that you see majority of players going, seen people rack up 30-50 kills in one game. Why this weapon is even in pvp is beyond me.

 

Nyx with Absorb is a get out of jail free card esp once you grab the aug mod.

 

Lets not get into coptering and how it makes CTF© mode pointless/ a copter into someone and shoot instead of actually aiming.

 

 

I'm not saying that you CAN't beat these, or that I need to get gud. I've beaten them plenty and out played many, but it starts to get just exhausting to keep seeing the same thing over and over again. I've tried out the cheese as well and it is significantly easier to maintain a high KD and win with it. When these options become the mainstay of pvp matches, it is easily broadcasting to the developers that change needs to happen. I'm not saying nerf, I'm not saying get rid of, but there are some bad decisions on what is currently implemented in conclave.

 

In a fast pace pvp match, a combination of these mentioned makes it just not fun to play. I'm a HUGE pvp buff and have almost always played MMOs/Vgames simply for pvp. If Overwatch or Fable Legends were out, I'd probably not even waste time writing this post, but this is in hopes that with Parkour 2.0 and some right decisions, DE can make conclave something not aggravatingly annoying to play.

 

But on a real note, DE you need to make some deep changes and develop a streamline on how you want Conclave to feel and be balanced on cause slapping Chroma, Rhino, and Nyx + coptering and the Tonkor shows a lack of understanding balance to me.

I do not agree with all of this expect the Tonkor thing ... It is too strong because it has so much simalarities to shotguns, but offers on the same time a special mobility and more dmg (this is what I call op: a weapon which is so good that it takes the niche of other weapons).

 

Chromas has probably the highest effective health in pvp, but Frost and Rhino are really close to him and his abilities aren't that strong. So I call him balanced.

 

And Nyx absorb is also not strong. The normal version is a laughingstock of an ultimate and with the augment ... Yeah it is heavy CC, but you can manage to escape it with coptering (at least I did it several times ... ) and her abilities aren't good in general. Psychic bolts can be strong, but they have a massive disadvantage, because the bullets are projectiles. I would say that she is underpowered.

 

And coptering ... This game is already really slow, why do you want to make it even slower? I'm not the only one who would quit Warframe, if coptering would be removed/super hard nerfed (and even if some people here don't care for us, DE does).

 

How I said.

Coptering needs no nerf, the map needs an improvement.

 

Noone would roflcopter the entire path from  one cephalon to the other, if he could slingshot around. It is slower when the map design is right. It is also exhausting to always press this 3 keys other and other again. This is getting boring and noone wants it.

Coptering should be a speed boost to have more possibilities to use parkour, but it will be spammed if the maps offers no possibilities to move on another way.

 

 

 

DE needs to make all weapons viable (there are more ways than simple stat buffs to make weapons viable), DE needs to look at their maps, DE needs to implement counter mechanics for abilities in general (rolling would be a good way), DE needs to add some kind of matchmaking and DE needs to make sure that every trade in such a fast paced game is worth it (reducing the effectiveness of shields).

Edited May 6, 2015 by Feyangol

[Whiteaggro]

I think coptering is something many people find hard to let go because it makes so many things much easier. Like dodging. Getting around the entire map in two seconds. Dealing damage while doing the above.

 

It's an easy out. It requires stamina, but is still an easy out. And people really like that. Just like how people liked their precious Tonkor friendly fire. That can kill your teammates.

[Feyangol]

I think coptering is something many people find hard to let go because it makes so many things much easier. Like dodging. Getting around the entire map in two seconds. Dealing damage while doing the above.

 

It's an easy out. It requires stamina, but is still an easy out. And people really like that. Just like how people liked their precious Tonkor friendly fire. That can kill your teammates.

I see it from a different perspective.

People don't want to learn how to aim for fast targets, people aren't used to follow their enemies, people don't want to shoot while moving, people don't want to dodge.

 

They are lazy and don't want to learn how to play in fast paced game. It is exactly like you say: an easy out. What could be easier than doing/learning nothing and just complaining until the things are like they want them to be. They believe that they will become better, if their whishes become true, but this won't happen. If you nerf weapons, than the people who are actually the best pvp players stay the same (look at league of legends - even if a champ is nerfed, the important players in the lcs stay the same), but they'll just use other weapons. People will always complain...

Edited May 6, 2015 by Feyangol

[Nighttide77]

Tonkor should never have been added, I hope they never add Ogris, Penta, Opticor, Angstrum or Castanas.

 

I disagree, and hope that I see all the explosive weapons available.  AOE weapons shouldn't be shunned.

 

Weapons like the Latron, Braton, Soma, and Gorgon all can defeat players without emptying out their whole mag.  The Tonkor requires at least two shots to make contact that happen to be projectiles.  Trying to hit most players with that is nearly impossible, especially if the target is well-versed on how to maneuver.  If players frequent a specific area, it is a good tactic to place traps there.  Every map has more than one route.  Grenades that are sitting on the ground are not invisible, either, so players deciding to keep fighting in a minefield will simply blow up.  I'm pretty sure players in spawn should be able to get out of the range of those grenades within the time they have for spawn protection.

 

Chroma's 3rd ability lasts 4 seconds...it's barely useful.  And it costs 75 energy.  If a player allows any enemy to get that close with melee, be it Gram, Kogake, Dex Dakra, or whatever, they're more than likely gonna die unless they're a really good shot at close quarters.  Most ranged weapons aren't meant to be used when someone's hitting you with a sword and darting around your crosshair.

 

Nyx's 4th, with or without augment, doesn't do enough damage on its own to kill a target.  If players are dying because of it, it's either that they're on their last leg of health, the Nyx's allies are shooting the bubble, or the enemies are unwisely trying to take down an invincible Nyx.  Also, Nyx is very vulnerable right after activating the 4th.

 

I think coptering is a problem in Conclave because there is almost no way to stop a coptering player from grabbing the flag.  Nyx has their Mind Control and Chaos, now, which is very helpful, but that's about it.  As a result, CTF is more like "Keep Away."  As long as coptering's current mechanics allow for ice proc and other slowing effect nullification, CTF will be more like Keep Away.

 

I'm mostly just waiting for Deathmatch and TDM.  In those modes, coptering won't matter as much, and I won't have to worry about a pesky flag to keep me from focusing on just fighting.

[Whiteaggro]

Let me let you in on something. Lag compensation for coptering is terrible in this game. I played FPS for most of my life and I still struggle with hitting a coptering player at his full speed.

 

There is something wrong with coptering. I cannot put my finger on it. I do not think patronizing people who complain will help either. ('People always complain'). Grass is green. Water is saturating. ???

[rockscl]

look at league of legends

 

 

thats a funny comparison, because the current state of cheese in warframe is actually worst than LoL´s season 1 and coptering has a noticeable part of responsability in that

 

 

Btw, thanks DE for that nerf on cestras

Edited May 6, 2015 by rockscl

[Aodan]

I think coptering is something many people find hard to let go because it makes so many things much easier. Like dodging. Getting around the entire map in two seconds. Dealing damage while doing the above.

 

It's an easy out. It requires stamina, but is still an easy out. And people really like that. Just like how people liked their precious Tonkor friendly fire. That can kill your teammates.

How I feel, it's an easy out.

I use coptering to avoid Nova surprise absorbs around corners and such.

 

As far as about Chroma, he has the most effective HP in pvp cause he has almost DBL the armor of frost and rhino INNATELY. That is not balanced, factor in using his 3rd ability or toxin on his 2nd, he has a very very very huge advantage against other frames no matter how you spin/counter play him.

 

You take players of similiar skill and put one in Chroma Vs any other frame, the Chroma will win 2/3 times. Add cheese into the mix, the only reason a chroma should die in engagements is poor play. He can easily 1v2 or 1v3 players. I know this for a fact cause I've fought some great chroma users and done it myself. He is not balanced at all. His armor should be brought down to 190 to be on same part with Frost and Rhino.

 

Editing Copter is a must. Parkour 2.0 will get rid of coptering in a way. I don't think we should have to wait till Parkour 2.0 to experince this, a quick and efficient current fix is to put a stop on continous coptering. Put an internal hold of .5 or 1sec before you can copter again after the end of the animation. Thus it can still be a viable movement option, but there is a pause in which poor coptering can be punishable. Factor in host advantage and the p2p issues of latency in pvp, this is really a must because I've had plenty of "hitscan" shots miss due to latency issues on someone coptering none stop.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Aodan

[Aodan]

Let me let you in on something. Lag compensation for coptering is terrible in this game. I played FPS for most of my life and I still struggle with hitting a coptering player at his full speed.

 

There is something wrong with coptering. I cannot put my finger on it. I do not think patronizing people who complain will help either. ('People always complain'). Grass is green. Water is saturating. ???

This!

[oinkah]

I think you hugely overestimate Chroma. If armor equation is the same as in PvE, then Chroma has effective health of 217. Adding 100 shields he has a total of 317 hit points.

In comparison Rhino or Frost have effective health of 163. With their hefty 150 shields they have 313 hit points.

So I don't really see the big deal. Chroma is more resilient against non puncture weapons, so perhaps that's where this confusion comes from.

Those extra 4 health points come at a price. Every Chroma's ability is sub par. Also, to tank damage he has to rely on health orbs. Not as convenient as shield tanking.

Edited May 7, 2015 by oinkah

[Pythadragon]

 

You got your Chroma users, with his base 350 armor, he doesn't even need to use his abilities to have an advantage against 80% of players, add using his 3 correctly with Kogake + MM, you basically can't win even if you got a bunch of good shots/hits ahead of him.

 

Lets do some math. Including damage reduction due to armor. You can find these formulas off of the warframe wiki page for steel fiber:

 

damage resistance %= armor/(armor + 350)

effective health = health/(1-damage resistance %)

 

Chroma: 100 shields + 217 health (317 units total)

Frost: 150 shields + 163 health (313 units total)

Rhino: 150 shields + 163 health (313 units total)

Volt Prime: 150 shields + 100 health (250 units total)

Mag: 150 shields + 91 health (241 units total)

Volt: 150 shields +79 health ( 229 units total)

Nyx Prime: 100 shields + 122 health (222 units total)

Nyx: 100 shields + 105 health ( 205 units total)

 

Chrome is barely ahead of everyone else due to low shields.

 

 

 

You have your Tonkor poppers, like someone else mentioned, it basically replaces shotguns and if your just lobbing them into a spawn, you will eventually get kills or just lay them down on a path that you see majority of players going, seen people rack up 30-50 kills in one game. Why this weapon is even in pvp is beyond me.

 

Tonkor is extremely hard to hit with Try using it yourself. It is a useless weapon outside of semi random blindshots and extremely close range.

 

I'd wager that those people racking up 30-50 kills were in games that lasted the full 15 minutes, were playing people of lesser skill level, and would have achieved the same results with a different weapon.

 

 

Nyx with Absorb is a get out of jail free card esp once you grab the aug mod.

 

 

Nyx Absorb is one of the most interesting things to happen in this game. It is a direct counter to ultimate abilities and ambushes. 

 

It is versatile:

- allows time to wait for backup while burning energy

- direct counter to ultimate abilities with good timing

- allows partial control of enemy movement with augment

- good possibility of team coordination with teammates charging your absorb

 

It is High Risk:

- enemies can copter out of your range, you are vulnerable and rooted/helpess when discharging the ability/run out of energy

- you are stationary and enemies have a free kill on you when you come out of absorb if not in range (see above)

Edited May 7, 2015 by Pythadragon

[xNegikunx]

Weird, there is no mention of slide spamming Kogake users who just wait for a hit to connect and then finish you off with their Tonkor/Lex Prime because the Kogake covers way too much distance for a weapon that can knockdown and stunlock, not to mention the Tonkor self damage is so completely negligible.

[Feyangol]

Let me let you in on something. Lag compensation for coptering is terrible in this game. I played FPS for most of my life and I still struggle with hitting a coptering player at his full speed.

 

There is something wrong with coptering. I cannot put my finger on it. I do not think patronizing people who complain will help either. ('People always complain'). Grass is green. Water is saturating. ???

Well, I have to admit that fast moving targets are a problem, if you have a bad host. But this tells us more about the current host situation and is more of a reason for dedicated servers than the removal/nerf of coptering. Coptering hasn't done anything wrong, if you have a bad host or connection.

And besides the normal aiming problems, which were in conclave 1.0 a lot bigger (this is pvp in slowmotion compared to 1.0), I have no problem to hit a coptering target. The trick is it to predict where your target is moving and wait until they pass your crosswheel and than to shoot. Also moving while aiming (for example with a normal jump) can be usefull to hit targets, but this is for 99% of the PvE players already too advanced.

 

How I feel, it's an easy out.

I use coptering to avoid Nova surprise absorbs around corners and such.

 

As far as about Chroma, he has the most effective HP in pvp cause he has almost DBL the armor of frost and rhino INNATELY. That is not balanced, factor in using his 3rd ability or toxin on his 2nd, he has a very very very huge advantage against other frames no matter how you spin/counter play him.

 

You take players of similiar skill and put one in Chroma Vs any other frame, the Chroma will win 2/3 times. Add cheese into the mix, the only reason a chroma should die in engagements is poor play. He can easily 1v2 or 1v3 players. I know this for a fact cause I've fought some great chroma users and done it myself. He is not balanced at all. His armor should be brought down to 190 to be on same part with Frost and Rhino.

 

Editing Copter is a must. Parkour 2.0 will get rid of coptering in a way. I don't think we should have to wait till Parkour 2.0 to experince this, a quick and efficient current fix is to put a stop on continous coptering. Put an internal hold of .5 or 1sec before you can copter again after the end of the animation. Thus it can still be a viable movement option, but there is a pause in which poor coptering can be punishable. Factor in host advantage and the p2p issues of latency in pvp, this is really a must because I've had plenty of "hitscan" shots miss due to latency issues on someone coptering none stop.

How the others said:

Chroma's effective health isn't that much higher than Rhino's and Frost's. And I don't know how you made this experience, but I rarely lose a fight against a chroma. The only thing that isn't allowed against him is to facetank and 4 frames have a massive advantage over him once they get energy. Only Chroma's afterburn augment with poison dmg can be a difficult to fight against - but it isn't easy to hit with it and it makes you vulnerable during the casting time. And again - just don't stop moving and it won't hit you normally.

 

And the thing about coptering ...

They did not say anything about getting rid of it:

 

DE said that they'll adjust coptering, but they did not say anything about how they'll do it. So everything over "coptering will be changed, probably nerfed" is just speculation and has a very little (if any) veracity. And they know exactly that if it will be killed, than I and a lot other people will be gone (even if you don't care for this people, DE does).

 

Edited May 7, 2015 by Feyangol

[Whiteaggro]

I for one welcome the Tonkor to the game, I played a lot of Demoman in Team Fortess 2 (and even farther back(and today), Serious Sam) some time ago and the Grenade Launcher is the most satisfying weapon I've ever used. Having something close to that is pretty nice. There is a lot involved around using the weapon. You need to learn the arc and you need to get used to how to predict your shots. You eventually do it naturally.

 

Also,

 

Also moving while aiming (for example a normal jump) can be usefull to hit targets, but this for 99% of the PvE players already too advanced.

 

Trust me, you are not special. Everything else you said in that post is valid except this.

 

 

Weird, there is no mention of slide spamming Kogake users who just wait for a hit to connect and then finish you off with their Tonkor/Lex Prime because the Kogake covers way too much distance for a weapon that can knockdown and stunlock, not to mention the Tonkor self damage is so completely negligible.

 

Any suggestions to this, whoever is lurking here? My head is blank at the moment.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Whiteaggro

[Pythadragon]

(regarding kogake slide spam)

 

 

Any suggestions to this, whoever is lurking here? My head is blank at the moment.

 

My post from:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/451921-kogake-should-be-removed-from-pvp/?p=5032061

 

For Kogake:

Change the knockdown on slide attack to a stagger. Slide attack will still have a unique form of crowd control, but will remove the ridiculous knockdown into auto aimed finisher attack. Kogake will still be able to do knockdown on the slam attack just like every other melee weapon.

 

At the moment, there is no reason to use the slam attack because the slide attack does the same knockdown, comparable if not more damage, and is faster/easier to hit with.

 

In general:

Add an innate stagger and knockdown limit. i.e. if you get staggered, you get an X second window afterwards where you will be immune to future staggers. Same with knockdowns.

 

Side note: Precedent has been set in pve for crowd control abilities being reduced in effectiveness for repeated usage against the same target. i.e. each time an ability is used on a riot moa, it would last shorter each time and eventually be almost immune to that ability.

 

PvP combat is too fast and deadly for this to work. Thus the simple timer proposal as stated above.

 

My personal opinion is that stunlocks situations should not exist in pvp because they remove too much player agency. Single stuns to stop movement/retaliation are fine. Repeated stuns where you can do nothing in between are not. 

[Feyangol]

Trust me, you are not special. Everything else you said in that post is valid except this.

I did not intend to make me special.

I'm just saying that there is a signifcant difference between how good you need to aim in pve and pvp in this game and that already little changes give some players really big problems to land their shots. And I made the experience that a lot pve player refuse to learn that their aiming isn't good. They can learn how to aim (so much players learned it in 1.0), but this takes time.

If you asked me how good I aimed before I played conclave than I would totally say that I was bad, really bad. And still I do not consider myself as good in aiming, but I don't need to be good, I just need to be better than this pve players, what isn't difficult.

 

So this was just a little allusion at my first post for you.

[LightFall]

Knock down by kogake is too op

[elele]

I'm a HUGE pvp buff and have almost always played MMOs/Vgames simply for pvp. If Overwatch or Fable Legends 

 

 

Guess this explains your perspective. --This game is more Quake than any "MMO". 

 

Tonkor is a problem you say? Well nobody complained about the GL in Quake 3. And Tonkor is almost an exact replicate of GL.

[imaxium]

I love the tonkor. Its really fun to use but also hard to use. I honestly barely see any ppl using it, but i love it.

http://plays.tv/video/554f21295d75961f73

http://plays.tv/video/554f20a51eef20804b

[Shin]

And coptering ... This game is already really slow, why do you want to make it even slower? I'm not the only one who would quit Warframe, if coptering would be removed/super hard nerfed (and even if some people here don't care for us, DE does).

 

Coptering is what ruins the CTCephalon. Anyone can escape or finish the game with coptering, its too quick and makes you cower the whole map within seconds. We're not saying coptering should be removed but all of the weapons should be slowed down to a common point. So that people wont abuse the same S#&$ and make the game boring as hell.

 

Also, if you didnt quit when nervos was a thing, you wouldnt quit the game now.

[Whiteaggro]

I don't care if anyone spams coptering. I only care if there is no way to punish people who infinitely copter despite being on 0 stamina.

[Fiiiinnn]

It sounds to me like you're bad at Pvp. Think about what the devs making pvp are thinking and how small that team is relative to the fan base.

Pvp is freaking awesome and some people are really good with easy to use weapons. Practice your headshots with lat prime and you will start to do better.