Will You Still Use Rhino Now?

[MegaJohnny]

The problem is.... the nerf didn't make the other abilities worthless.... they already were, so now there's no reason to use him, everybody knows that. Not questionable.

 

If you don't know how to play rhino, i understand this... but you shouldn't voice opinions without facts and having tested yourself. As i already explained, there's no point in using him anymore.... because he lost the only last ability that made him unique and worth using. Now any other frame can do the job, better, faster.... no point in using him, that's all.

Wow nice "my opinion is the rightestest, if you disagree you just don't know the facts" tone there.

 

Really now, people need to calm down with the knee-jerk reaction. Let's wait until he's fixed, and we see what DE actually meant for the fate of Iron Skin, and then we can base our reaction on that.

[CadenFall]

I tried him out after nerf and having toxic still deal a butt load of damage and disruptors able to take all of your energy away while in Iron Skin is just flat out ridiculous. He went from my favorite Warframe to my least favorite. I'm having a blast with Vauban at least. I was also farming Banshee, only needed systems, but every one says she is broken too with the nerf.

[Drusus]

Going to say this again here because apparently it keeps getting missed.

Rhino's immunities to knockdown and such should not all have disappeared with Iron Skin no longer totally invincible.

This has already been stated and reposted repeatedly by mods and others to communicate that Rhino's current susceptibility to effects outside of raw damage was not an intended component of this change but a bug that crept into the deployment.

So before the burning mob sets alight any more thatched roof cottages ala Trogdor, perhaps operating with the actual facts would be helpful? :)

I know it's not as dramatic and lacks that certain panache of making oneself to be the martyr of the silent majority, but generally I find facts are so much more compelling than fiction.

[OriKlein]

Seriously, we don't use some ability or weapon not because of something is too OverPowered,

but Others just too useless.

Nerfing those useful things doesn't mean others become useful too,

Just all became a crap.

This.

All games I've played.

Most of nerfs that were applied.

This. This. This. This one hundred times over.

Sadly, I've yet to date met a developer who understood this simple fact.

Best Regards,

[JerryMouse13]

Going to say this again here because apparently it keeps getting missed.

Rhino's immunities to knockdown and such should not all have disappeared with Iron Skin no longer totally invincible.

This has already been stated and reposted repeatedly by mods and others to communicate that Rhino's current susceptibility to effects outside of raw damage was not an intended component of this change but a bug that crept into the deployment.

So before the burning mob sets alight any more thatched roof cottages ala Trogdor, perhaps operating with the actual facts would be helpful? :)

I know it's not as dramatic and lacks that certain panache of making oneself to be the martyr of the silent majority, but generally I find facts are so much more compelling than fiction.

 

Here's the problem though, he's still inferior to every Frame in some for or fashion while being superior in none. He get's out tanked by Trinity, and any Ember with a Focus mod. For a Frame that was meant to be a purpose built tank, that is entirely unacceptable. It doesn't matter what DE's intentions were, they have made it so that Rhino fills absolutely no role in a way that some other frame can't fill better.

[Drusus]

Here's the problem though, he's still inferior to every Frame in some for or fashion while being superior in none. He get's out tanked by Trinity, and any Ember with a Focus mod. For a Frame that was meant to be a purpose built tank, that is entirely unacceptable. It doesn't matter what DE's intentions were, they have made it so that Rhino fills absolutely no role in a way that some other frame can't fill better.

Then he had that issue before this change if that's the case mate (and I'm not saying your argument is incorrect, it may indeed have merit).

That doesn't change the fact that anyone who is arguing the nerf is too far because of the immunity losses are arguing with very bad data, which was my point.

If the ensemble of powers is lackluster, so be it, and people can and should make the logical case for that.

That affects, not one iota, the total inappropriateness of not paying attention to the facts stated about the expected operational case that it was supposed to only ensure you were not 100% unkillable in the Iron Skin state, just extremely resistant and durable with a number of immunities to debilitating effects.

The problem you state deserves discussion.

The people screaming this degree of foul on bad information deserves correction.

That's all. :)

[Eisvogel]

Wow nice "my opinion is the rightestest, if you disagree you just don't know the facts" tone there.

 

Really now, people need to calm down with the knee-jerk reaction. Let's wait until he's fixed, and we see what DE actually meant for the fate of Iron Skin, and then we can base our reaction on that.

 

If you read the post, you can actually see the only one with knee-jerk reaction is you.

Also, they already stated that the lack of knockdown immunity is unintentional. It doesn't matter at all, as long as you are not invulnerable to dmg, or to poison and disruption.... rhino is as good as a pile of garbage. It's impossible to use/win with it? Not at all, with any good weapon u can win while drinking milk and cookies in this game. It's just not useful for any job now, and any frame can do it better..... as well as now there is no reason to use him on defense at all, just stick to the current op always the same composition..... you know.... forst infi snow globe.... nyx confusion..... you know it. The new frame also seems useful with the last two skills... he might make it into the high def squads.....

[MegaJohnny]

Here's the problem though, he's still inferior to every Frame in some for or fashion while being superior in none. He get's out tanked by Trinity, and any Ember with a Focus mod. For a Frame that was meant to be a purpose built tank, that is entirely unacceptable. It doesn't matter what DE's intentions were, they have made it so that Rhino fills absolutely no role in a way that some other frame can't fill better.

Doesn't matter what their intentions were? Yes it does. You're not seeing what was intended for Iron Skin, but a temporary behaviour until they fix the bugs in it. There's simply no point causing such a stink when it'll probably be pretty different again in a day or so.

[Abenoki]

Doesn't matter what their intentions were? Yes it does. You're not seeing what was intended for Iron Skin, but a temporary behaviour until they fix the bugs in it. There's simply no point causing such a stink when it'll probably be pretty different again in a day or so.

problem isnt just iron skin, rhino skills as a whole need work, unless they make his skills worth the energy this nerf has removed the niche use he had, which was being the "oh S#&$ we F'd up come save us!" member of the party

[Luxangel7]

Nope.

 

Edit: Ok ok, too tart.

 

Rhino was a tank. His abilities sucked require "finesse" and are arguably all the same thing, except for his first being "diet slash dash".

 

His only purpose, saving grace, shining quality (no pun intended) was his ability to go into the bowels of hell for a brief while and f*** shi* up or revive team mates.

 

Now, his only decent power is basically slightly better damage reduction than ember's "overheat" or whatever that's called. And ember's ability damages enemies while it's at it.

 

Rhino used to be slow, frustrating to use but potentially very useful.

 

Now he is slow, frustrating, and useless.

 

So....to my original point....nope.

Edited May 18, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[MegaJohnny]

If you read the post, you can actually see the only one with knee-jerk reaction is you.

Also, they already stated that the lack of knockdown immunity is unintentional. It doesn't matter at all, as long as you are not invulnerable to dmg, or to poison and disruption.... rhino is as good as a pile of garbage. It's impossible to use/win with it? Not at all, with any good weapon u can win while drinking milk and cookies in this game. It's just not useful for any job now, and any frame can do it better..... as well as now there is no reason to use him on defense at all, just stick to the current op always the same composition..... you know.... forst infi snow globe.... nyx confusion..... you know it. The new frame also seems useful with the last two skills... he might make it into the high def squads.....

I'm reading the thread. People are saying Rhino is totally useless based on a very temporary behaviour of it. That's what I'd call a knee-jerk reaction.

 

Meanwhile, fully upgraded Rhino Charge is one-shotting level 30 non-heavy enemies in droves...

[JerryMouse13]

Doesn't matter what their intentions were? Yes it does. You're not seeing what was intended for Iron Skin, but a temporary behaviour until they fix the bugs in it. There's simply no point causing such a stink when it'll probably be pretty different again in a day or so.

 

It doesn't matter how Iron skin will preform after the fix, because unless they restore it to its previous invincibility, it will now be out shined by both Trinity, and Ember, all the while possessing no skills that someone else doesn't do better. He will be inferior to every other Frame in the game in some form or fashion.

 

 

 

Then he had that issue before this change if that's the case mate (and I'm not saying your argument is incorrect, it may indeed have merit).

That doesn't change the fact that anyone who is arguing the nerf is too far because of the immunity losses are arguing with very bad data, which was my point.

If the ensemble of powers is lackluster, so be it, and people can and should make the logical case for that.

That affects, not one iota, the total inappropriateness of not paying attention to the facts stated about the expected operational case that it was supposed to only ensure you were not 100% unkillable in the Iron Skin state, just extremely resistant and durable with a number of immunities to debilitating effects.

The problem you state deserves discussion.

The people screaming this degree of foul on bad information deserves correction.

That's all. :)

 

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but the fact remains that, even with his immunity, if he is indeed limited to only 80% resist while unable to increase that resistance with Focus, in the manner of Ember, he will fulfill absolutely no role that another frame can't fill. I can understand why you're telling us to 'wait and see' but with what DE themselves have told us this seems to be the logical conclusion. I hope I'm proven wrong, but at the moment this is a gross failure on DE's part, both in terms of balance (Trinity still retains her invincibility), and implementation (Iron skin is now bugged).

Edited May 18, 2013 by JerryMouse13

[Drusus]

It doesn't matter how Iron skin will preform after the fix, because unless they restore it to its previous invincibility, it will now be out shined by both Trinity, and Ember, all the while possessing no skills that someone else doesn't do better. He will be inferior to every other Frame in the game in some form or fashion.

 

 

 

 

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but the fact remains that if he is indeed limited to only 80% resist while unable to increase that resistance with Focus, in the manner of Ember, he will fulfill absolutely no role that another frame can't fill. I can understand why you're telling us to 'wait and see' but with what DE themselves have told us this seems to be the logical conclusion. I hope I'm proven wrong, but at the moment this is a gross failure on DE's part, both in terms of balance (Trinity still retains her invincibility), and implementation (Iron skin is now bugged).

We don't yet know, if it's bugged, how it's supposed to be stacking with Steel Fiber, Focus or other modifications coming in Update 8 (as we see in the Vauban video there appear to be a number of Warframe resistance mods pending)

I won't defend for a second the release of it in a bugged state. While I know that kind of thing happens, I still maintain the responsibility is theirs to prevent it from happening as I have for any other development house; that is of course, the job. Implementation errors do happen and responding to them quickly and effectively is more indicative of competency, but like you, I have a low tolerance for injecting them in the first place.

As for lateral comparisons, I'm not arguing 'wait and see' so much as 'more is pending I expect' because we know Update 8 has sweeping impact, with new components and deployments along with the commensurate need to balance existing things in combination with said elements.

I most definitely think arguing that it's a bad move using a _known broken case_ as the measuring stick is missing the point entirely, which is what many people have been doing.

As I said before, is Rhino worthy of examining and improving? Sure, I think there is a case to do so.

That's still a different argument than saying it needed one totally broken skill to be worthwhile.

I think you're being fair minded JerryMouse, truly, but I think that is a welcome exception amongst the fervor.

[BETAOPTICS]

I'm going to use him regardless of nerfs. I just started playing as him yesterday and thus far, honestly speaking, he is a beast with or without the skill. My experience was that I did not need to use Iron Skin all that much to begin with. Sure it was good when trying to resurrect someone but usually i survive it with any Frame, powers activated or not. And to think about it, some other Frames had worse powers than Rhino and had a similar ability as he did, functioned a bit differently but the core idea was the same, I'm talking about second chance type of ability, invisibility or invincibility. I am nobody to reason whether or not this was justified decision but I don't see myself suffering from this all that much as other people seem to be, maybe they are over exaggerating a bit, or maybe they are not but one thing is sure, I'll still be kicking some MOA's in the face just like I used to.

[Maddoc]

Gonna mothball him for awhile until they take another pass over his skills.

 

3 and 4 were always kind of S#&$ty, 1 is okay but massively outclassed by Slash Dash, and now 2 really doesn't have a whole lot going for it.

 

In light of the loss of invulnerability during long cast animations, I'll probably just end up pulling my Excalibur Prime back out and Slash Dashing my way to victory. Imagine my surprise when I played him again for the first time in awhile and found that DE buffed what I already considered one of the single best powers in the game.

[Aerensiniac]

short answer: no

[w00tm0ng3r]

I'm not sure the bug fixes will help at all. Here's the thing: the stun and knockback immunity are not the important CCs to be immune to. The important things to be immune to are poison and disruption. These two are so blatantly obvious as to be utterly impossible to miss and require literally mere seconds of testing to verify. I'm incredulous to say the least that their removal was in any way unintended. To say that it was unintentional is to imply that not a single person on DE's internal testing team got anywhere near a single toxic or disruptor ancient for a single second during the entire length of their testing process.

 

Now let me be clear: without immunity to poison or disruption Rhino no longer has a place in Warframe. Even with absolute immunity Rhino only outperformed Frost against the Infested, and it was only because he could engage ancients effectively. If Rhino does not have poison or disruption immunity it will NEVER be optimal to take him over Frost.

 

On to the other issue: currently Ember is a better tank than Rhino is. Ember with focus has 91% damage reduction. This is no small difference. This does not mean overheat is 11% better than iron skin. This does not mean overheat is 11/80 = 13.75% better than iron skin. This means overheat is MORE THAN TWICE AS GOOD as iron skin. Damage reduction is subtractive not additive. It is the difference between taking 9% damage and taking 20% damage. Thus it is 122% BETTER than iron skin. Ember, the squishy mage, has a tanking ability 2.22 times as good as iron skin. This is unacceptable.

[Eisvogel]

Tis is a sad day... :(

[Aerensiniac]

I'm not sure the bug fixes will help at all. Here's the thing: the stun and knockback immunity are not the important CCs to be immune to. The important things to be immune to are poison and disruption. These two are so blatantly obvious as to be utterly impossible to miss and require literally mere seconds of testing to verify. I'm incredulous to say the least that their removal was in any way unintended. To say that it was unintentional is to imply that not a single person on DE's internal testing team got anywhere near a single toxic or disruptor ancient for a single second during the entire length of their testing process.

 

Now let me be clear: without immunity to poison or disruption Rhino no longer has a place in Warframe. Even with absolute immunity Rhino only outperformed Frost against the Infested, and it was only because he could engage ancients effectively. If Rhino does not have poison or disruption immunity it will NEVER be optimal to take him over Frost.

 

On to the other issue: currently Ember is a better tank than Rhino is. Ember with focus has 91% damage reduction. This is no small difference. This does not mean overheat is 11% better than iron skin. This does not mean overheat is 11/80 = 13.75% better than iron skin. This means overheat is MORE THAN TWICE AS GOOD as iron skin. Damage reduction is subtractive not additive. It is the difference between taking 9% damage and taking 20% damage. Thus it is 122% BETTER than iron skin. Ember, the squishy mage, has a tanking ability 2.22 times as good as iron skin. This is unacceptable.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Segolia]

Rhino's definitely going on the backburner for a bit - at least until DE takes a long, hard look at his skillset. 

 

What I'd really like to know more than anything is DE's reasoning behind the nerf. I get that being flat out invincible might be a bit over the top but was it really that out of hand that it needed to be nerfed to 80%? IMO the problem was not in the invincibility itself but rather how frequently one could use it with maxed out mods.

 

I reckon something like bumping the energy cost up to 75 (maybe swapping it with radial blast) would have been a much better move (at least initially). As far as I can glean it's meant to be a very short, situational ability - for saving the guy caught in a group of ancients, for drawing the fire of a grineer heavy gunner away your teammates - not something you should be able to run continuously for minutes on end while hacking away at a boss, laughing as they hopelessly try to even damage you.

 

If that's the case, than something like a higher energy cost would have worked much better. It would force people to use it only when absolutely necessary because it would cost too much energy otherwise. Make people think about when to pull out the invincibility trump card rather than have them do it whenever because it's so cheap to use.

[rhoenix]

Even though Iron Skin got nerfed, Rhino is still an implacable monster. I still alternate between Rhino, Loki, and now Saryn for solo boss and Alert runs.

[OriKlein]

Seconded.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Yeah but Rhino Skin was his only redeeming feature. Rhino Charge, Radial Blast and Rhino Stomp are all below-par abilities, all outclassed by someone else's ability (Slash Dash, most ults, and Vauban's third, respectively). It made him average overall.

Now that it's nerfed, he's just sub-par. He doesn't do any damage, his stuns are average and outclassed (wtf is the point in three stun abilities anyway??) and he's godforsakenly slow.

You want balance? Bring everyone to Rhino's level and halve the damage of every skill in the game. Then maybe I'll go back to him.

[rhoenix]

Yeah but Rhino Skin was his only redeeming feature. Rhino Charge, Radial Blast and Rhino Stomp are all below-par abilities, all outclassed by someone else's ability (Slash Dash, most ults, and Vauban's third, respectively). It made him average overall.

Now that it's nerfed, he's just sub-par. He doesn't do any damage, his stuns are average and outclassed (wtf is the point in three stun abilities anyway??) and he's godforsakenly slow.

You want balance? Bring everyone to Rhino's level and halve the damage of every skill in the game. Then maybe I'll go back to him.

I've given this thread another read-through, and both you and others have made good points. I've taken these into account for the suggestions I made in another thread in this forum.

[Demon-King-Lamb]

So much for my boss destroyer. Those BP's are goin to come in a bit slower now.