Conversion Rate Is King: Why These Market Changes Are A Terrible Idea

[NotaCobra]

I love this forum too. So many stupid people think they are smart and like to belittle other peoples opinions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

For you.

 

Do you notice the irony of such a statment?

 

Furthermore, and I quote;

 

 

unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority

 

What's to say either of those are true?

Perhaps I am an economic genius laughing bemusedly at people who are educationally beneath me.

 

Or perhaps I am enjoying a little dry wit seeing the irony of people who think they are in a position to tell others what they should or shouldn't do?

 

Either way, your post is a hypocrisy and an ignorant one at it.

Edited May 19, 2013 by NotaCobra

[Story4]

While i really disliked Battlefield heroes far being pay 2 win, i agree with the rest, as in if prices are lower, someone who spends money once for the game will definetly spend even more later. This is also kinda what LoL does, there are enough champions or skins on sale or that cost a small price so that people can take that first step and pay more later. TF2 also does this.

 

Which is why i always was and am an adept of removing slots, making grinding harder (except for 1 weapon fro each class which should be available for credits), but not based on RNG, based on a steady progression and making all other items cheaper. Maybe 10$ for other warframes and 5$ for starting warframes and weapons and since you get them supercharged it would really be worth it. Also skins and cosmetics should only be available for money, not through other means in-game becasue if they are their value decreases. This way free players won't feel limited and paying players will get more bang for their buck, everybody wins.

 

[Brahmastra]

If you ask me the prices for the things you "really" need such as, orokin reactor, orokin catalyst, colorpacks and helmets are pretty cheap.

To me it looks more as a "dont-buy-guns-with-plat" market, i mean 5$ for a single viper?

Oh and the avatar packs worth 30 plat look more like a "I support DE" kind of joke

[MoonicusMaximus]

The prices appear to be set to encourage people to NOT buy weapons and frames with platinum, unless they want to pay a heavy price for obtaining it instantly with a spud installed. I imagine this is done to increase the game longevity by introducing more of a grind to obtain weapons through crafting, which is understandable because prior to this, you had to spend at most 2 hours running alerts/pluto missions to get 50,000 credits for the most expensive credit-purchasable weapon on the market.

 

I mean, who actually bought weapons with platinum even before this? It's obvious that a majority of players would rather farm, even prior to the patch. These changes, from a how-I-spend-my-platinum standpoint, don't change much at all. What this patch did change is that weapons now require more effort and game-time to obtain.

 

Everyone can argue until they are blue about DE's platinum business model, but I personally don't see how the patched changed much in that regard. Everyone attempted to avoid paying money for weapons/frames prior to this anyway, and if DE's goal at the moment is game longevity for new and fairly new players and not strictly "how can we get more money from our players?", this change makes a bit more sense. Yeah, it increases the weapon grind and old players who are used to the relative ease getting new weapons was prior will not like it, but with the massive increase in credit acquisition warranted some longevity changes.

[krisp]

So you work for DE's financial department? 

 

Stop giving the Devs marketing advice, they seem to be doing alright to me.

 

This isn't about helping DE turn a profit, this is about you wanting more for less.

I find that this forum is for feedback, and the OP's feedback seems constructive and detailed to me. What is your problem with it?

[Aggh]

The prices appear to be set to encourage people to NOT buy weapons and frames with platinum, unless they want to pay a heavy price for obtaining it instantly with a spud installed. I imagine this is done to increase the game longevity by introducing more of a grind to obtain weapons through crafting, which is understandable because prior to this, you had to spend at most 2 hours running alerts/pluto missions to get 50,000 credits for the most expensive credit-purchasable weapon on the market.

 

I mean, who actually bought weapons with platinum even before this? It's obvious that a majority of players would rather farm, even prior to the patch. These changes, from a how-I-spend-my-platinum standpoint, don't change much at all. What this patch did change is that weapons now require more effort and game-time to obtain.

 

Everyone can argue until they are blue about DE's platinum business model, but I personally don't see how the patched changed much in that regard. Everyone attempted to avoid paying money for weapons/frames prior to this anyway, and if DE's goal at the moment is game longevity for new and fairly new players and not strictly "how can we get more money from our players?", this change makes a bit more sense. Yeah, it increases the weapon grind and old players who are used to the relative ease getting new weapons was prior will not like it, but with the massive increase in credit acquisition warranted some longevity changes.

 

I don't know about other people, but I still see no incentive to buy any weapons or frames with cash.  They're priced too high  for what you get and I still have plenty of credits and mats to craft new weapons/frames.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Aggh

[Xanezz]

How many people do you know that have purposefully bought 10-20 bucks worth of platinum to but a frame?

That is the question. One we'll probably never get answered.

 

Having played a few f2p games in my time, I've seen a few business models (before you crack wise and act like a moron saying "You don't know S#&$, yo" like Mr Cobra up there, hear me out)

.

The first thing is, no matter what your shop's prices are, "reasonably" or not, if nobody buys anything (i.e. no players) you won't sell anything. You can see the carcasses of countless f2p game hanging over the virtual fences all the time. Some of them maybe even had fairly cheap microtransactions. Didn't matter. If not enough people enjoy the game to keep the company aloat, the game dies.

Warframe has a few players (been regularily in the top 15 of http://store.steampowered.com/stats , 13 at time of writing this post), so that first hurdle seems to be taken for the moment (again, I don't know how many regular players a company needs to stay afloat yada yada yada, but so far DE seems to be doing well, so my speculation is that around these numbers is fine considering the current business model).

 

Now, the prices of other f2p mmo's, shooters, you name it are not really all that different from the ones in warframe. That tells me that there is people buying tanks, cars, weapons and warframes for 20$ (as overpriced as that might seem to you, some people do have that kind of money and are willing to send it).

Now while you might think that's an insane waste of money, you can't really argue against it if people are doing it. DE is getting their money, so why would they change the prices?

 

I personally would like to see myself buying weapons at, to me personally more reasonable prices, as often I can't be arsed to farm for certain weapons (especially with Dojos around the corner).

As a student with not that much disposable income, I will not pay up to 20€ to buy a warframe. That's like a week's worth of food.

That doesn't mean its the same for everyone. You have to accept there is people out there willing to spend money rather than time, since maintaining their life(-style) is way more expensive than 20$ on a daily basis. So for their afternoon entertainment they much rather spend 20 bucks on a game they like.

I personally will just keep farming stuff, I have the time in the day to do that and still enjoy the game.

 

 

tl;dr, don't see high market prices as something to keep you out, but something that helps a game you obviously care enough about to look at the forums, read through threads and maybe even comment in them. You want to see the game you enjoy do well, and seeing people pay way too much real money for so virtual items, so they will buy more currency they'll spend unreasonably again (< personal opinion) should make you happy for the devs. You can, in the meanwhile, farm your warframes and weapons and only spend money on potatoes and slots. You're still helping the devs improve the game.

It's 2 tiers of payments, essentially.

If you are not okay with pricing, doesn't mean they'll change it just because you said so. The current model seems to work for them, so they will keep it this way until it doesn't work anymore. No matter the amount of whinging on the forums. Period.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Xanezz

[TunaMayo]

That is the question. One we'll probably never get answered.

 

Having played a few f2p games in my time, I've seen a few business models (before you crack wise and act like a moron saying "You don't know S#&$, yo" like Mr Cobra up there, hear me out)

.

The first thing is, no matter what your shop's prices are, "reasonably" or not, if nobody buys anything (i.e. no players) you won't sell anything. You can see the carcasses of countless f2p game hanging over the virtual fences all the time. Some of them maybe even had fairly cheap microtransactions. Didn't matter. If not enough people enjoy the game to keep the company aloat, the game dies.

Warframe has a few players (been regularily in the top 15 of http://store.steampowered.com/stats , 13 at time of writing this post), so that first hurdle seems to be taken for the moment (again, I don't know how many regular players a company needs to stay afloat yada yada yada, but so far DE seems to be doing well, so my speculation is that around these numbers is fine considering the current business model).

 

Now, the prices of other f2p mmo's, shooters, you name it are not really all that different from the ones in warframe. That tells me that there is people buying tanks, cars, weapons and warframes for 20$ (as overpriced as that might seem to you, some people do have that kind of money and are willing to send it).

Now while you might think that's an insane waste of money, you can't really argue against it if people are doing it. DE is getting their money, so why would they change the prices?

 

I personally would like to see myself buying weapons at, to me personally more reasonable prices, as often I can't be arsed to farm for certain weapons (especially with Dojos around the corner).

As a student with not that much disposable income, I will not pay up to 20€ to buy a warframe. That's like a week's worth of food.

That doesn't mean its the same for everyone. You have to accept there is people out there willing to spend money rather than time, since maintaining their life(-style) is way more expensive than 20$ on a daily basis. So for their afternoon entertainment they much rather spend 20 bucks on a game they like.

I personally will just keep farming stuff, I have the time in the day to do that and still enjoy the game.

 

 

tl;dr, don't see high market prices as something to keep you out, but something that helps a game you obviously care enough about to look at the forums, read through threads and maybe even comment in them. You want to see the game you enjoy do well, and seeing people pay way too much real money for so virtual items, so they will buy more currency they'll spend unreasonably again (< personal opinion) should make you happy for the devs. You can, in the meanwhile, farm your warframes and weapons and only spend money on potatoes and slots. You're still helping the devs improve the game.

It's 2 tiers of payments, essentially.

If you are not okay with pricing, doesn't mean they'll change it just because you said so. The current model seems to work for them, so they will keep it this way until it doesn't work anymore. No matter the amount of whinging on the forums. Period.

 

I have already given DE my money so that is not the issue. 

 

You claim the model seems to be working for DE. However, they just released new frame, with new powers, that is incredibly fun which is alert or plat only. This is the only frame i have purchased with plat and I am sure I am not the only one. I am not pointing fingers at DE or bashing them, I am just saying that this was an attempt to generate some revenue and basically limits Vauban to those who have/are willing to buy plat, or wait god knows how long. The market prices have already caused a stir in the community.

 

If DE are in a rut and need money, I would like them to announce it as I know that many Founders would upgrade/purchase more if it meant keeping the game alive. This would be more preferable to narrowing player options. I feel that Warframe is getting dangerously close to moving from "Pay if you are Lazy or grind if you aren't" to "Pay for this new thing or wait forever and hope the alert gives it up".

[Thustra]

Out of curiosity, has anyone here spent platinum to buy any of the weapons in the game (excluding perhaps the Glaive)? If not, what did you use your platinum to purchase?

 

[TunaMayo]

Out of curiosity, has anyone here spent platinum to buy any of the weapons in the game (excluding perhaps the Glaive)? If not, what did you use your platinum to purchase?

 

 

I have only ever spent Plat on :

 

Vauban

Loki (dead cheap at 35 plat instead of hours of farming)

Potatoes

Colours

Helmets

Rushing Foundry (because I am pretty much ADD and need things now)

 

Previously I would have never paid for a weapon, but with the new bp mat requirements, i almost feel like DE is strongly pushing people in that direction.

 

[MoonicusMaximus]

I have already given DE my money so that is not the issue. 

 

You claim the model seems to be working for DE. However, they just released new frame, with new powers, that is incredibly fun which is alert or plat only. This is the only frame i have purchased with plat and I am sure I am not the only one. I am not pointing fingers at DE or bashing them, I am just saying that this was an attempt to generate some revenue and basically limits Vauban to those who have/are willing to buy plat, or wait god knows how long. The market prices have already caused a stir in the community.

 

If DE are in a rut and need money, I would like them to announce it as I know that many Founders would upgrade/purchase more if it meant keeping the game alive. This would be more preferable to narrowing player options. I feel that Warframe is getting dangerously close to moving from "Pay if you are Lazy or grind if you aren't" to "Pay for this new thing or wait forever and hope the alert gives it up".

 

DE knows their own purchase numbers when it comes to weapons and frames, and it's safe to say that they were low, at best, because of the relatively high price compared to the relative ease of obtaining them through in-game methods. If DE's intent was to start selling more weapons/frames through platinum, we would have seen price decreases, but the fact that we did not see those decreases leads me to believe that having weapons easily/cheaply obtainable via platinum or 2 hours of grinding is not DE's current intent.

 

Receiving items through alerts is not nearly as "wait forever" as some people think, either. I did not purchase a glaive through platinum, but I did indeed want one. It took maybe a week or so, I think, before an alert showed up for the Glaive, and considering that I don't play all that often, I still was able to obtain a Glaive without paying a penny. I imagine Vauban will take longer, but until we see the stint of non-complete Vaubans reaching something like months at a time, I don't think the wait will be that bad. And if you can't take the wait, you have the option to spend some platinum.

[TunaMayo]

DE knows their own purchase numbers when it comes to weapons and frames, and it's safe to say that they were low, at best, because of the relatively high price compared to the relative ease of obtaining them through in-game methods. If DE's intent was to start selling more weapons/frames through platinum, we would have seen price decreases, but the fact that we did not see those decreases leads me to believe that having weapons easily/cheaply obtainable via platinum or 2 hours of grinding is not DE's current intent.

 

 

I'm starting to sound like I hate the current update! But I'm just trying to state some of the impressions the update leaves me with.

 

Instead of plat decreases, they have increased the grind/difficulty required to obtain weapons for f2p players. This makes platinum purchases more "attractive" to people with plat but without decreasing plat prices. Suggesting DE may need/want more money. Whilst I agree that 2 hours grinding would not be enough, everything could be made in a week or so, you must no forget the 12 hour wait on all foundry items. 

 

I am just starting to get the feeling that DE are engaging in the "F2P" approach which hasn't worked in the past:

 

High in game cash/High grind costs AND High real money costs.

 

I'm just going to point out that Steam Concurrent users has gone down from about 20k to around 13k, in the last month or so. There has to be a reason why people are leaving.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I'm also just stating how I view the changes, not my position for or against them. Just trying to understand how people see these changes, mostly.

 

I can attest, though, that the reason I personally have not been playing as of late is the wait for Update 8. I imagine the player surge for when that update is released will bring steams concurrent users back up. Can't say if this is the REASON, but I know several others I play with are doing the same.

[HomeyCDawg]

All I know is that I spend my money on slots and colors and other bling. I would never pay real money for a frame or weapon. If others feels that ~15-20$ for a single item in a video game is worth it for them, then that is fine, but they are unreasonably overpriced for my blood.

[Lumireaver]

If DE are in a rut and need money, I would like them to announce it as I know that many Founders would upgrade/purchase more if it meant keeping the game alive. This would be more preferable to narrowing player options. I feel that Warframe is getting dangerously close to moving from "Pay if you are Lazy or grind if you aren't" to "Pay for this new thing or wait forever and hope the alert gives it up".

 

This, in so many words. DE is generally pretty transparent about its operation.

 

While many ages ago it was almost taboo to talk about the money you were making, these days people actually like to see that kind of information. Talk about wages in your live stream  talk about the price of actually creating content, artist salaries, revenue made on certain products, and so on. Kickstarter has proven that there are individuals out there who donate thousands for projects they trust and want to succeed. 

Edited May 19, 2013 by Lumireaver

[HomeyCDawg]

This, in so many words. DE is generally pretty transparent about its operation.

 

While many ages ago it was almost taboo to talk about the money you were making, these days people actually like to see that kind of information. Talk about wages in your live stream  talk about the price of actually creating content, artist salaries, revenue made on certain products, and so on. Kickstarter has proven that there are individuals out there who donate thousands for projects they trust and want to succeed. 

 

I agree. It's not just DE either. The entire video game industry is, for some reason, unreasonably secretive about pretty much everything they do. People in general are starting to expect transparency in the companies they deal with, and the video game industry is, at some point, going to be forced catch up with and accept this trend.

 

DE has actually not been to bad about this so far, but they are starting to show signs.

[PositronicSpleen]

Well here's something kind of related: http://www.geekwire.com/2011/experiments-video-game-economics-valves-gabe-newell/

 

 

I established early on I wasn't going to spend money on most things in this game, just slots and maybe the really rare things. You would have to be *loaded* to think anything on the markeplace has a fair price for platinum, except possibly things like reactors/catalysts. Maybe they should do sales. Not like the unending dual skana sale, I mean real ones.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Well here's something kind of related: http://www.geekwire.com/2011/experiments-video-game-economics-valves-gabe-newell/

 

 

I established early on I wasn't going to spend money on most things in this game, just slots and maybe the really rare things. You would have to be *loaded* to think anything on the markeplace has a fair price for platinum, except possibly things like reactors/catalysts. Maybe they should do sales. Not like the unending dual skana sale, I mean real ones.

Honestly, the only things that are reasonably priced from an "impulse buy" standpoint are slots, potatoes, and arguably sentinels. Maybe also starter warframes (the ones that cost 75 plat.) Add in colors and accessories for people who care about that stuff too maybe.

To date, the only thing I've spent my hunter package plat on are slots, potatoes, and cosmetic stuff like sentinel wings and color packs. Even though I had a ton of plat at one point, I never even considered buying actual frames or guns because the price is so ridiculous. I can't imagine spending that much real money on one item, particularly when I might not even like how it plays.

[Emotitron]

The way around this is to offer sales (which DE may already do).

The idea of slightly overpriced items is that there ARE people out there to whom $15 is nothing. They may have a tech job that pays them that in 10 minutes of work. The high price is aimed at these people, who can afford to be impatient. New items will be initially priced for this group.

 

The next tier of people are the ones who are willing to pay, just not THAT much. For them stuff goes on sale on occasion or after it has been available for a while.

 

And then the last tier are the people who can't spare the money, are too young to have a credit card, or just refuse to spend money on games in beta when they can just play them for free. For those individuals, the game offers random rewards of the goodies and blueprints.

What they do right is offer inventory slots and potatoes for pretty cheap. These are very useful, and they do 'convert' players to spenders quicker. While most people aren't going to drop money to get a weapon they may hate... everyone knows they will make use of inventory slots and potatoes.

[MJ12]

The way around this is to offer sales (which DE may already do).

The idea of slightly overpriced items is that there ARE people out there to whom $15 is nothing. They may have a tech job that pays them that in 10 minutes of work. The high price is aimed at these people, who can afford to be impatient. New items will be initially priced for this group.

 

The next tier of people are the ones who are willing to pay, just not THAT much. For them stuff goes on sale on occasion or after it has been available for a while.

 

And then the last tier are the people who can't spare the money, are too young to have a credit card, or just refuse to spend money on games in beta when they can just play them for free. For those individuals, the game offers random rewards of the goodies and blueprints.

What they do right is offer inventory slots and potatoes for pretty cheap. These are very useful, and they do 'convert' players to spenders quicker. While most people aren't going to drop money to get a weapon they may hate... everyone knows they will make use of inventory slots and potatoes.

 

The thing is, this is a weird-as-hell pricing scheme. Generally, most F2P games will make their money off of things like guns which they get people to buy. The current setup means they don't buy anything but colors, cosmetics, slots, and potatoes, which means they're not spending money on as many thing as they should, unless they're whales.

 

Ideally you'd have guns priced at a reasonable amount as well as Warframes, then have, I don't know, solid gold pimp trim for the guys who think putting down $50 for a new gun is totally cool. I wouldn't begrudge players who think $25 is fair for a gun to have solid gold pimp guns that shoot solid gold bullets and give permanent +25% Affinity/Credit gain bonuses or whatever makes it seem more 'worth it' if it means I can buy a non-pimp gun for $5 or whatever. Ideally you want to give people carrots to buy in with a ton of money, not sticks.

 

The Excalibur Prime/Skana Prime in the Founder's Pack did that really well, but it really seems that DE is running away from a model that works.

[Emotitron]

The thing is, this is a weird-as-hell pricing scheme. Generally, most F2P games will make their money off of things like guns which they get people to buy. The current setup means they don't buy anything but colors, cosmetics, slots, and potatoes, which means they're not spending money on as many thing as they should, unless they're whales.

 

Ideally you'd have guns priced at a reasonable amount as well as Warframes, then have, I don't know, solid gold pimp trim for the guys who think putting down $50 for a new gun is totally cool. I wouldn't begrudge players who think $25 is fair for a gun to have solid gold pimp guns that shoot solid gold bullets and give permanent +25% Affinity/Credit gain bonuses or whatever makes it seem more 'worth it' if it means I can buy a non-pimp gun for $5 or whatever. Ideally you want to give people carrots to buy in with a ton of money, not sticks.

 

The Excalibur Prime/Skana Prime in the Founder's Pack did that really well, but it really seems that DE is running away from a model that works.

 

I think the better solution to all of this is to add tiered weapons/warframes (rather than more). Players access the next tier in the store by achieving rank and maxing out the first tier of their weapon/warframe. The next tier weapon would use the previous one as part of the recipe for its construction. Developer money could be made not so much on selling the guns/frames outright as much as allowing people to skip the farming process and upgrade to the next tier with platinum. The first tier of everything could be reasonably cheap, as the goal is just to get the players engaged an help them find the weapons that fit their play style. Money would be made in allowing players to accelerate construction (and skip the farming) for upgrades. They would still be required to level to get access, so you can't just buy yourself top tier, you can only pay to skip the bulk of the farming.

This would allow DE to keep the store uncluttered, but allow paths for weapons and warframes to open up slowly over time for players, and keep the foundries busy.

It would introduce power-creep, but I don't see how this game is going to survive WITHOUT power creep. The game as it stands now is all about gaining more powerful weapons to fight more powerful enemies, so there is no way to for the game currently to remain fun once players have maxed out their frames/mods/weapons. They really need to redesign the game so it can scale infinitely.

That or they need to REALLY start churning out regular endgame content, but I don't get the impression that have the staff for that based on the rate at which content is currently coming.