May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[K1LLZ0NE]

While it is true that Rhino is not technically "useless", there is absolutely no reason to use him.  If you want  'frame that does damage, use somebody else.  If you want a 'frame that can take lots of damage, use somebody else.  There is nothing that Rhino excels at.  Not anymore.

 

Edit:  Also, the argument that with maxed power mods and everyone using energy siphon isn't really valid.  Under these conditions any skill can be spammed and considered OP.  The main difference with Iron Skin is that it deals no direct damage.

Edited May 22, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[Churpy]

Maybe, because Trinity always was squishy? That's why she have Well of Life, Energy Vampire, Blessing and Link. Cast Link, then Blessing - good skill combo, if you and your mates in trouble. If she haven't enough energy - Energy Vampire and one swing with Gram or Scindo, or HEK, or Snipetron (if you use Energy Vampire for distant target (because range of her abilities are incredible!)

Trinity has always been squishy, yes. But she has been SO EASY to play. Those cast times are damn long man. If you're on Wave 20 of a defense surrounded by 20 MOA:

Before the update: Lol, np. My cast times are so long and I'm invulnerable for 'em! lolollooloololo

After the update: Better pre-cast all of your skills super skilfully so that you don't get insta-gibbed from the mass fire while waiting for that long cast time!

Once again, not saying it's a bad thing, I love that Trinity actually now takes some skill to play, just surprised it's not been raised at all.

[Phoenix86]

Yeah, well, I played him yesterday...

 

...and I, too, have noticed this.

 

So maybe that's what happened to cali too, sry man, i mean all frames lost their invincibility while casting skills

[Lady_Solaire]

I believe the damage Sound Quake now does is working as intended... but being vulnerable during the casting animation is problematic. Will inform and suggest invulnerability be returned.

 

Not true, Sound Quake is still glitched for off-host players, dealing double the amount of "ticks" (and thus, double its intended damages.)

 

The SQ nerf did nothing but reduce its mediocre damage output for on-host players, off-host it can still clear everything on its own.

[vonDirk]

Trinity has always been squishy, yes. But she has been SO EASY to play. Those cast times are damn long man. If you're on Wave 20 of a defense surrounded by 20 MOA:

Before the update: Lol, np. My cast times are so long and I'm invulnerable for 'em! lolollooloololo

After the update: Better pre-cast all of your skills super skilfully so that you don't get insta-gibbed from the mass fire while waiting for that long cast time!

Once again, not saying it's a bad thing, I love that Trinity actually now takes some skill to play, just surprised it's not been raised at all.

Well, as you noticed - you like to play Trinity. And she still very powerful frame, with great - and very useful - abilities. I don't know anyone, who will complain about Trinity in their team! It's like "Hell yeah! We have Trinity!" Almost the same with Frost (mostly on Greenir and Corpus missions). Well, almost any warframe is useful for something, except of Rhino - because he is slow, can't do damage, and his Rhino Stomp isn't good for players, because they still need to kill all targets anyway. In comparison, Excalibur is fast, have 12m blind for 6-12 sec (the same or even doubled duration as Rhino Stomp), nice damage dealer and his Ultimate exterminates 15 targets, if they didn't get cover (so, Infested and Corpus usually is pwned completely).

[Churpy]

Well, as you noticed - you like to play Trinity. And she still very powerful frame, with great - and very useful - abilities. I don't know anyone, who will complain about Trinity in their team! It's like "Hell yeah! We have Trinity!" Almost the same with Frost (mostly on Greenir and Corpus missions). Well, almost any warframe is useful for something, except of Rhino - because he is slow, can't do damage, and his Rhino Stomp isn't good for players, because they still need to kill all targets anyway. In comparison, Excalibur is fast, have 12m blind for 6-12 sec (the same or even doubled duration as Rhino Stomp), nice damage dealer and his Ultimate exterminates 15 targets, if they didn't get cover (so, Infested and Corpus usually is pwned completely).

Yeah, you make a good point. I really love Trinity. Sometimes I did feel she was a little overpowered. Sometimes I feel she still is. I wouldn't mind a nerf at all, this is the frame for me, I used Mag to farm her, and as soon as it was built I sold Mag and have only used Trinity and never looked back. The only way I would ever get a second frame? Trinity Prime. Or perhaps if another support frame was released.

 

However I was mostly talking about the Trinity players themselves complaining. Maybe there just aren't enough of them or something o_O

[Zectifin]

Bring back invuln on ultimates.

[TheaMatticks]

 

 

800 damage is 'nothing'/too low:

  This isn't an inherant issue with Rhino's proposed Ironskin.  If 800 points of surviveability is trivial, that inherantly would mean 800 shields is trivial for every Warframe in the game, given warframes max out at around 500-1200 thats a good hunk of them.  So the inherant issue isn't Ironskin getting only 800 points of absorption, but an issue of the damage being dealt at high levels.

Reguardless of what actually absorbs the damage, be it Ironskin, shields or health, it will be an issue of taking 800+ damage in a small time frame.

 

This also gives DE mixed messages when people mention the game being 'too easy'.  800 damage absorbtion being a trivial amount and the game being 'too easy' sound mutually exclusive to me given shield ratings on warframes.

 

The upside being that while Rhino is taking the 800 damage his shields are regenerating enabling him to take further damage.

 

The difference is that when other frames start taking damage, they throw up defenses or run for cover to prevent themselves from dying.  IS is supposed to provide that cover for you and let you charge forth, especially when coupled with the new aggro mechanic.

[Ganpot]

Just to throw in this other idea:

 

#1 Rhino Charge - No changes

#2 Radial Blast - Damage equal to Frost's Ice Wave, cost 50

#3 Rhino Stomp - Reduce by 2 sec on all levels the "lifted duration", cost 75

#4 Iron Skin (Ultimate) - Working as the original one, add the new high priority mechanic, cost 100

 

Easy as that.

 

That still wouldn't make his other abilities useful.  It doesn't matter how much damage Radial Blast does, becuase it lacks any utility (making it useless at high levels).  It doesn't matter how little Rhino Stomp costs, since its effects can be achieved with a melee jump attack (using a suitable weapon) for free. Rhino Charge also needs some help, because (compared to Slash Dash and other abilities) it lacks in mobility, damage, and utility all at the same time. 

 

 

Now then, I'm going to calmly and logically explain why a maximum cap on Iron Skin is both a terrible idea, and actually much worse than the current Iron Skin (not that I'm a fan of it). 

 

The first problem is one of training.  The old Iron Skin trained users to be cocky, because they were literally unstoppable with it.  That was arguably a good thing, because Rhino is slow and supposedly a tank.  A tank should not be afraid to rush into things.  The current Iron Skin trains users to anticipate hard fights and use Iron Skin before they are in trouble (so that the 80% reduction is applied to all of their shields), and then quickly drop out of the fight after taking too much damage.  That would be fine if Rhino's role was an off-tank (and he was fast enough to easily escape from danger).  But he is supposed to be the primary tank, and that requires consistency.  The new plan for Iron Skin actually trains users to become cocky at low levels, becuase low level enemies aren't usually going to deal 800 damage within 10 seconds.  However, at high levels that training will result in quick, painful deaths.  That is a game design failure: the game is teaching something which it then abruptly changes.  Iron Skin should be the most defensive ability in the entire game, and as such, it needs to scale well regardless of enemy level. 

 

This leads to the second problem of the new plan: math.  As other users above me have pointed out, 800 damage is in most situations much worse than 80% damage reduction.  This means that at very high levels, Iron Skin would be harmful instead of beneficial, because enemies would be able to inflict 800 damage in less time than it took to finish the animation. 

 

The last problem is one of roles.  Rhino makes sense as a pure tank (since no other class fills the role currently).  That requires abilities which allow him to get close to enemies without fear, and stay there for long periods of time (although not indefinitely).  This must be allowed regardless of enemy level, or else Rhino will only be useful until a certain point.  The best warframes at the moment (Frost and Trinity) have abilities which scale indefinitely.  That is the entire basis of their superiority. 

[Nibbie]

What about adding both suggested changes? Maybe try combining rhino stomp and radial blast for a medium damage CC ability, since they serve similar purposes anyway, and make a new ability. So he would have one for the shield and one for the percentage damage reduction, and they would stack with each other. One of them would have the taunt, probably the % one. This would allow either ability to work in different scenarios (burst damage = put on shield, sustained damage = put on % reduction, massive damage like at high levels = both). This would allow him to be near-invincible, but make it cost more, while giving him the option to adapt to different scenarios, and allowing him to more easily use his damage/CC abilities to contribute to a large fight. Thoughts?

[Ganpot]

What about adding both suggested changes? Maybe try combining rhino stomp and radial blast for a medium damage CC ability, since they serve similar purposes anyway, and make a new ability. So he would have one for the shield and one for the percentage damage reduction, and they would stack with each other. One of them would have the taunt, probably the % one. This would allow either ability to work in different scenarios (burst damage = put on shield, sustained damage = put on % reduction, massive damage like at high levels = both). This would allow him to be near-invincible, but make it cost more, while giving him the option to adapt to different scenarios, and allowing him to more easily use his damage/CC abilities to contribute to a large fight. Thoughts?

I don't really like the idea of two shield powers, mostly because I hate redundant abilities (which is why I also hate Radial Blast).  In my opinion, it would be better to have one ability just be the taunt, and the other one just be full on invincibility (my post a couple pages back lists the details).  That way, players can decide for themselves whether they want to expend extra energy on a taunt, or if the situation doesn't require it. 

[RayTheSun]

I've been rollin' things around in my head, and something is really bothering me. With the crunch for update 8, I really want to know how much legitimate testing went into the Rhino nerf; nerfing his sole practical skill is one thing, but said nerf causing a bug as severe as that (vulnerability to knockback) should be downright inexcusable.

 

It really seems like this is something you should've looked at when you didn't actually have a workload, because nerfing iron skin means you need to look at his other abilites. His one practical ability was compensating for an okay dash that will rarely see use, and two virtually identical and pretty bad area of effects.

[Deadly-Bagel]

I will be okay with the new Iron Skin as long as it is affected by armour value.

 

So with 60% damage mitigation (default) Iron Skin will actually take 2,000 damage before falling apart. This gives Steel Fibre an actual use! And requires proper modding to be made truly effective.

 

EDIT: Any word on his useless three abilities?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Deadly-Bagel

[K1LLZ0NE]

I will be okay with the new Iron Skin as long as it is affected by armour value.

 

So with 60% damage mitigation (default) Iron Skin will actually take 2,000 damage before falling apart. This gives Steel Fibre an actual use! And requires proper modding to be made truly effective.

 

The problem with relying on mods to make the ability "truly effective" is that Rhino already requires lots of mods to help with his weak points.  One good example is his speed.  I can't go into a game without putting at least Rush on him.  There's just no way.  And you hardly even see a difference until you upgrade Rush a good ways.

[ValhaHazred]

Sound fair to me, Deadly-Bagel.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Yes but on the other hand, a 2,000 damage soak is effective enough on its own. If you want to be seriously tanking in higher levels you want a reactor anyway in which case Steel Fibre might not be a bad idea (instead of Continuity, it's feasible). I have Steel Fibre on my Rhino for lack of other mods at my disposal.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Yes but on the other hand, a 2,000 damage soak is effective enough on its own. If you want to be seriously tanking in higher levels you want a reactor anyway in which case Steel Fibre might not be a bad idea (instead of Continuity, it's feasible). I have Steel Fibre on my Rhino for lack of other mods at my disposal.

not vs lvl 40+ enemies. They'll eat right through it, no problem.

[K1LLZ0NE]

I have never used Steel Fiber.  Armor values only affect health, which means they are useless.  Health cannot be recovered (other than Trinity and the odd Red sphere) so you would be better of investing in shields or abilities.

Edited May 22, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[vonDirk]

What about adding both suggested changes? Maybe try combining rhino stomp and radial blast for a medium damage CC ability, since they serve similar purposes anyway, and make a new ability. So he would have one for the shield and one for the percentage damage reduction, and they would stack with each other. One of them would have the taunt, probably the % one. This would allow either ability to work in different scenarios (burst damage = put on shield, sustained damage = put on % reduction, massive damage like at high levels = both). This would allow him to be near-invincible, but make it cost more, while giving him the option to adapt to different scenarios, and allowing him to more easily use his damage/CC abilities to contribute to a large fight. Thoughts?

 

Interesting idea - but still non-effective - because he will have two low-efficient abilities instead of one. And his energy pool will drain after first use, so 10 seconds on wave 20+ Defence or on Pluto mission - and Rhino is down.

 

Rhino is tank-CC, if I understand all other's thoughts and goals. Now he both lack toughness and support abilities, as the damage ones. But i don't want Rhino to be damage dealer as eweryone else. He is the slowest, the largest (Loki is taller, but more slim constitution), haven't any useful CC abilities (Radial Blast is the same, as jump attack with heavy weapon, and Rhino Stomp is too expencive, deal no damage and inferior to Bastilia of Vauban).

Let's think about different things: Iron Skin, maybe, was bugged - and gave Rhino invulnerability. Maybe it WAS a bug, but it's become his feature. It's not a bug anymore. It's not an overpowered ability, because you WIILL be mortal, even if it takes some time - and if you are in team. But the main thing about Iron Skin was "He can solo tank any boss with Gorgon". Is that true? No. He CAN'T keep Iron Skin turned on ALL the time, especially if he is playing Solo. And it was almost unreal to play with him on high level missions even with Iron Skin, because your ammo aren't endless too. You can take only 8 equipments, and you need ammo boxes, some health packs (and i usually take with me group heal). With his speed - Rhino unable to kill everyone, because he will spend a lot of time just to get close to the enemy. Or trying to take cover.

So, Rhino is not suit for Solo-missions after mid-game.

As for team - Rhino was always more burden then support. Really, you think, Iron Skin was most often used with Rhino? No, it was Rhino Charge - because he is slow. And he need to move fast, because he is not Frost - he can't hide inside ice shell, if enemies approaches. Or if he played with faster 'frames (well, with ANY frames except Rhinos and Frosts). His CC abilities? Non-sence. He need to be near the battle to use Rhino Stomp and he need to be in close quaters, if he want to use Radial Blast. He need to spam more abilities, than any other warframe, if he need to be useful or efficient. If he will use Rhino Charge all the time - he can't use Rhino Stomp, Radial Blast or even Iron Skin, because his energy are gone just to get close to enemies. Long duration of Iron Skin was only excuse for him. If he will not use Rhino Charge - he will always came when battle is over... You know, that Loki can get to Captain Vor, kill him and get to extraction point faster, than Rhino will only reach place, where Captain Vor was killed? I know, i saw that a lot of times, especially when i played online.

Well, Frost is slow too - and it's a good argument. But players will wait for Frost, because he will give them cover with Snow Globe or Freeze hard targets, like bosses or heavies. Or even if they don't want to wait for him - Frost will be fine even alone, i knew, i played as Frost too.

 

 

I will be okay with the new Iron Skin as long as it is affected by armour value.

 

So with 60% damage mitigation (default) Iron Skin will actually take 2,000 damage before falling apart. This gives Steel Fibre an actual use! And requires proper modding to be made truly effective.

 

EDIT: Any word on his useless three abilities?

So, you think, Rhino need to use ONE MORE mod, to be at least some usefull on mid-levels? Because high-level enemies will shred him into little crying rhinos in matter of seconds, especially, if he will get taunt and will be under sustained fire. Well, he is already almost everytime under sustained fire - he is best target, because he can't hide or run away even with Rush mod.

 

And let's think, what mods Rhino need: his abilities (if you want him to be useful, not only running-shooting) - 19 points, both vitality and redirection (because he can use polarity slots, and this is two NECESSARY FOR EVERYONE mods) - 7 and 6 (because of Polarity), Continuity (because it affects 3 of his skills - or suppose to affect) - 9, Flow (at least +100%, or you will barely can do something) - 7, Strech (if you want to use your CC-utility, right?) - 9. It's 57 points. There are 3 points left - and that's overcharged Rhino. And he CAN'T spam Iron Skin, because he haven' big energy pool and Streamline. So how can he put Steel Fiver (14 more points!) - in exchange of what?

Edited May 22, 2013 by vonDirk

[Ganpot]

not vs lvl 40+ enemies. They'll eat right through it, no problem.

And that's the entire problem.  Iron Skin needs to be just as effective at higher levels as it is at lower levels (otherwise Rhino won't be able to tank, which is the only thing it does well).  A lot of people don't seem to understand that.  If there is any frame which should have an invincibility mechanic, it should be Rhino. 

[(NSW)Canadabis]

80-85-90-95% damage reduction, sure. Why not? how about 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2x shield regen active during iron skin. With fast deflection applying, that would be at most like 112 or something shield regen/sec with mods applied to focus on that specifically. So immunity to 100% of status effects, poison, disruption, 80 to 95% reduction and the shiled regen (Wether you spend mod points to maximize it or not) making it sort of possible to stay in direct fire, kind of, or at least letting you duck in and out of fire much more rapidly.

 

There you go, problem solved.

 

Game still went cash grab buggy mess over night, unrecoverable management paradigm shift. Can't fix that, but there is rhino.

 

P.s. Rhinos ult is freaking amazing, but you need ALL the mods that can apply to it maxed + flow and streamline maxed. Then it's a 100 foot radius of nothing moving or shooting back for a full minute, if you feel like it. Radial stomp does no damage no matter what you do, just ditch it. Rhino charge is a shtty slash and dash reskin with less damage, but whatever, you take a hit in that spell, and radial stomp CUZ IRON SKIN IS SO GOOD. Or used to be :/

[Phoenix86]

That's why i think brining back full invincibility while increasing cost and decreasing duration seems one of the best solutions...

It would allow Rhino to be 100% effective and at the same time not being 100% effective for indefinite times but only when it's really needed (and it's up to the player wisdom to know where to use his precious Iron Skin)

 

PS: i really like ur post Ganpot

Edited May 22, 2013 by Phoenix86

[Seanjuju]

Maybe: However many seconds of strictly HP protect, nothing else  

 

Aggro can't be a part of IS while the cost is 50. There's no way.

[Phoenix86]

Maybe: However many seconds of strictly HP protect, nothing else  

 

Aggro can't be a part of IS while the cost is 50. There's no way.

 

In fact, now it's 15sec for 50 energy

Making it be 10 sec for 100 energy seems reasonable

 

I'm talking about max'd mod obviously.

 

To make it even "less spammable" it could not work with continuity and/or streamline... so it cant be increased making it even more precious to use ONLY at the right moment 

Edited May 22, 2013 by Phoenix86

[KrisStrife]

Taunt:

  The taunt aspect proposed to be added to Ironskin is a huge tactical bonus to Rhino as a group player.  I personally can see many uses where drawing all the fire from a certain point would be a good thing for the group as a whole (maybe not so much for a stat hunter Rhino).  Particullarly if Rhino then ducks behind cover (or moving from cover to cover) so he isnt taking damage (or even much damage) at all.

Problem with this is that Rhino isn't fast enough to move from cover to cover, so it's basically "Pop Iron Skin while hiding, continue to hide while your team mates do all the work." This could be accomplished just as easily with Frost's Snow Globe, which allows Frost to continue shooting, and punish any melee attackers who charge in by severely slowing them. I think Snow Globe might last longer too.

 

Infested missions would turn this strategy into a death trap unless he's standing on a box, which any frame can do and be safe.