May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[K1LLZ0NE]

I know it could still mean they could just change the cost/duration/aggro mechanic, but let's look at what was the cause of the change in the first place.  It was justified with (I'm not finding the exact quote) "the designer felt the need to change it", so what was Iron Skin prior 7.11? An invulnerability on a time limit.

That's why I think they don't want (for whatever reasoning) to go back to that version when I read "At this point a complete revert to the original power is not planned":

But I sure can be wrong as hell with my assumption

 

I would just really like to know what they are thinking.  Is it the invulnerability?  Is it how long it lasts?  Is it that it can be spammed?  We do not have enough information to really do more than just tell them if we like the new change.

[Zogg]

I would just really like to know what they are thinking.  Is it the invulnerability?  Is it how long it lasts?  Is it that it can be spammed?  We do not have enough information to really do more than just tell them if we like the new change.

 

me too

that's where the communication has to start if DE wants not only random ideas (even if they are good) thrown out at them but really contructive feedback/suggestions that can fit their idea of how the frame should work in a team/what role it should fill and what each power should be doing for teamplay or the frameplayer himself.

Telling what excatly felt wrong with IS would make it easier to suggest things that could fit with what the designers want IS to be in the end

 

E:

It doesn't sound like it perhaps but I really appreciate how DE is responding to the feedback so far, I don't want to sound ungrateful

Edited May 22, 2013 by Zogg

[Fallast]

Not trying to derail the topic here, but I'm kind of curious if they plan on doing anything further with the Paris. I don't see it receive much attention or interest here on the forums (at least not that I saw) but for many of us that used it prepatch the difference is substantial.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Fallast

[Balduron04]

Dear Devs,

 

I am confused by your recent update to the Rhino's Iron Skin. You have said that it absorbs 200/400/600/800 damage, and I would like to know whether this works like temporary shields, or like Flat Damage Reduction. Is it Ablative or is it Static? Does it block each 10 damage hit and stop after absorbing 200 damage, or does it absorb every hit for the duration that's less than 200 damage?

 

When I think tank, I think of someone who's got heavy armor, a Huge Cannon, or a Sword and Shield and can mess people up once he gets there. And he can actually get there cause everyone goes -dink- off his armor. I like the Rhino with a damage reduction move that he can activate reasonably often. I like the fact he can wade into melee combat and dish out damage when everyone else is afraid too. I'd love to see him even better at this. Either a melee damage amp or a second tanking skill would make the rhino into a much more interesting frame.

 

Lastly, I'd like the coolest ability, his most iconic ability, the go-to awesome ability, to be the ultimate. Rhino should have his "God-Mode" and it should cost him 100 energy. And it should be both awesome and fun. The other frames, they have their useful abilities, their staples, but they all have something that makes a new player's jaw drop when they discover how awesome that ultimate ability is. Its usually AoE, Tons of Damage, and very cool. But for the Rhino, his amazing and currently iconic ability is Iron Skin. Its his 2nd slot ability, his go-to "God Mode". If you want to play up Rhino Stomp, make it "iconic" and "Jaw dropping", it needs a buff. And I'm fine with that. But I'd be verymuch happy with seeing a 10 second unlimited Invulnerability move as the Rhino's "Look at me, I'm awesome". Stick this with a common damage reduction ability and you're looking at a sick tank. He'd get back a bit of his former glory, being able to charge through endless waves of undead Infested to aid a fallen ally in the nick of time. He could stand on the front line without fear, being the bulwark his allies needed when they chose to include him on the team. HE COULD SMASH SOME SERIOUS FACE.

 

I dont know if you can tell, but I seriously want that.

 

Regards,

Balduron04

[RedLightning]

I would just go with the simple solution of restoring full invulnerability and just increasing the cost to 75 or even 100. It is simple, reduces spammability and makes everyone happy. I would say that this proposed change is worse than the current DR. Just increase energy usage and revisit the other Rhino powers to give them more incentive to be used over Iron Skin. Everyone defaulted to Iron Skin because said powers are lackluster as they stand and Iron Skin seemed to be the only reason people played Rhino, so why not fix that? Just my two cents.

[vonDirk]

I hate reading your posts, but I agree with you for the most part.

Sorry, i'll try to be shorter further =)

 

What I feel they should do is move (original)Iron Skin to his ultimate, and give it a taunt effect.  That's it.  Now, if they want to work on the other skills, great.  Personally I think Radial Blast + Iron Skin (with a taunt) would be devastating, and super fun to play with.  And for those asking for an increase to the cost AND a decrease to the duration, we're talking about 15 seconds here.  Considering Rhino's energy pool is only 150, boosting the cost of Iron Skin to 100 would stop it from being spammed.  Don't forget that Rhino is mostly dependent on his weapons to do his damage.  In 15 seconds its not like you can clear an entire room of mobs.

But think of it this way.  If one of your teammates goes down you can run a little ways away and use Iron Skin (with a taunt) and all the baddies will focus on you, leaving your other teammates to rez the downed one.  This would be a much better way of rezing than the old way.

Only few details: 100 energy for 15 seconds invulnerability with his existent skills are pretty useless. Because if he can use it only once - it's not good - because he need to get to his fallen teammate and than get back to cover. 75 energy for that will be ok - even with taunt, but I prefer to give taunt to his Ultimate - Rhino Stomp lifts all enemies for longer duration, how it should be, and then all enemies are rushing to the Rhino. Yeah, it's not so cool as "I'm in shiny armor", but more suitable if I want to save my teammates, who still alive. And yes, if there are really harsh situation - I need to use BOTH of them. It will require more energy, as you can calculate, but still, it's really nice CC ability. And why I don't want to have taunt on Iron Skin (but will be agree with that)

Okay, even if this happened, and it was just you and one teammate.  If he gets downed you can still run to him, activate Iron Skin, rez him, then all the bad guys will be attacking you, and your teammate can find cover, or stick it out with you.  No matter how you look at it, a taunt effect can only be good.  Unless you are not 100% invulnerable.  Then it is certainly a bad idea.

 

This situation could be nice, except few details. Your fallen teammate gets up and gets all shots that supposed to hit you. Because enemies are usually everywhere, and if he just stays in the line of fire... Well, you know, bullets are not smart, they hit everyone. But even this is ok - we are Rhinos, so we will protect them with our body, covered with Iron Skin. But there are Infested, especially Ancients ones. And if Healers just nasty, but less dangerous bast... guys, but Toxics and Disruptors... Well, I think, my fallen teammate wouldn't be glad to have Ancient Toxic as his neighborhood... And Disruptors hit those, who are vulnerable for them. Yeah, it's kinda harsh and unreal situation, but still..

I think, taunt must be Rhino's 1st or 2nd ability. Like "Rhino growls and taunt enemies to himself, gaining little speed boost in addition" for 25 energy. It will allow you to be live Decoy with aggro and ability to distract enemies from your teammates - and gives you some mobility to get cover, if you haven't enough energy to activate Iron Skin.

 

P.S. A little off topic - but i LOVE Rhino's roar when he performs Rhino Charge! It's just amazing!

P.P.S. A little tests again: current Iron Skin with Maxed Continuity have duration 15 seconds. 

Edited May 22, 2013 by vonDirk

[Aggh]

As has been noted, the damage cap isn't going to scale well.  Maybe base it on the number of enemies that iron skin agros with an increased amount added per enemy for each rank?

[K1LLZ0NE]

As has been noted, the damage cap isn't going to scale well.  Maybe base it on the number of enemies that iron skin agros with an increased amount added per enemy for each rank?

 

That seems too complicated.  I'm sure they want to find a simple fix that will make everyone "happy".

[GroxXx777]

That seems too complicated.  I'm sure they want to find a simple fix that will make everyone "happy".

 

 

I wonder how hard would it be to make it like it once was and increasing the energy cost... You can't get more simple than that.

[Vorpalstryke]

Aha! I think I understand why the developers nerfed Iron Skin. Seeing the incredible amount of negative response tells me that Rhino was indeed one of the most popular frames being played. A lot of people loved the safety of IS, myself included. But the developers want the playing field to be more balanced so they nerfed the most popular frame in hopes that people will try out other frames like Trinity. Note that Trinity has a "God Mode" too, one that can be infinitely maintained on a boss but yet nobody complains because far fewer people play her. I guess I'll give her a try now to make the developers happy. Or just stick to nuking rooms with my Saryn who is my new favorite. Goodbye Rhino, it was a fun ride while it lasted. You will be missed!

[GroxXx777]

Aha! I think I understand why the developers nerfed Iron Skin. Seeing the incredible amount of negative response tells me that Rhino was indeed one of the most popular frames being played. A lot of people loved the safety of IS, myself included. But the developers want the playing field to be more balanced so they nerfed the most popular frame in hopes that people will try out other frames like Trinity. Note that Trinity has a "God Mode" too, one that can be infinitely maintained on a boss but yet nobody complains because far fewer people play her. I guess I'll give her a try now to make the developers happy. Or just stick to nuking rooms with my Saryn who is my new favorite. Goodbye Rhino, it was a fun ride while it lasted. You will be missed!

 

That's not the way you make players use other frames, you don't force people to play with other frames, you make other frames more interesting so people want to play with them. Killing Rhino just so Rhino players use other frames would be pretty silly.

[Aggh]

That seems too complicated.  I'm sure they want to find a simple fix that will make everyone "happy".

How is a simple scaling mechanic too complicated?  It would give a limit to its effectiveness without making it completely useless vs crowds like the dev's proposed idea.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Aggh

[Fallast]

How is a simple scaling mechanic too complicated?  It would give a limit to its effectiveness without making it completely useless vs crowds like the dev's proposed idea.

Imagine trying to gauge how long you actually have your protection for when it scales based on available targets. Unless I'm missing out on some mystical technique to tell me how many enemies there are in a 15m sphere around me, it sounds a bit hard to use it and be anything but cautious with a mechanic like that. That's only on our side, I'd imagine the devs would have quite a time making that function properly as well.

[GroxXx777]

How is a simple scaling mechanic too complicated?  It would give a limit to its effectiveness without making it completely useless vs crowds like the dev's proposed idea.

 

It would have to count the enemies that iron skin agros and scale acordingly, In most cases would be too overkill in low levels and too useless in high levels. And even if they took the enemies levels in account to make it more logical, making an algorithm that calculates all that and gives you a "fair" damage cap is still way more complicated and would take much more time that just giving you invulnerability and increasing the cost or decreasing the duration which, is not only as easy as changing two variables, but would make everyone happy too.

Edited May 23, 2013 by GroxXx777

[Aggh]

Imagine trying to gauge how long you actually have your protection for when it scales based on available targets. Unless I'm missing out on some mystical technique to tell me how many enemies there are in a 15m sphere around me, it sounds a bit hard to use it and be anything but cautious with a mechanic like that. That's only on our side, I'd imagine the devs would have quite a time making that function properly as well.

If it's done properly it would just mean that it would scale the amount of damage you can tank to the number of enemies.  It would essentially be just as effective vs one enemy as it would be vs 20.

 

 

 

It would have to count the enemies that iron skin agros and scale acordingly, In most cases would be too overkill in low levels and too useless in high levels. And even if they took the enemies levels in account to make it more logical, making an algorithm that calculates all that and gives you a "fair" damage cap is still way more complicated and would take much more time that just giving you invulnerability and increasing the cost or decreasing the duration.

lol, saying that something as simple as counting how many enemies have been effected by an ability would be too complicated is an insult to DE's competence and intelligence :|

 

As for low levels, that's where mod levels come into play.  A max ranked skill will always be overkill in low levels.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Aggh

[fishworshipper]

If it's done properly it would just mean that it would scale the amount of damage you can tank to the number of enemies.  It was essentially be just as effective vs one enemy as it would be vs 20.

...or they could just give IS invulnerability and make it 100 energy and/or have a cooldown.

[Aggh]

...or they could just give IS invulnerability and make it 100 energy and/or have a cooldown.

You guys do realize they probably have no intention of doing that, right?  The directions that they have gone with each revision have made this pretty clear.  The best bet right now is to work with what is being offered.

[Zarozian]

You guys do realize they probably have no intention of doing that, right?  The directions that they have gone with each revision have made this pretty clear.  The best bet right now is to work with what is being offered.

Why would they wanna make things more difficult for themselves, when an easier solution is to simply restore the invulnerability and the skill to the way it was?

[Zarozian]

...or they could just give IS invulnerability and make it 100 energy and/or have a cooldown.

Hey don't lose sight of what we want here fishy.

[GroxXx777]

 

lol, saying that something as simple as counting how many enemies have been effected by an ability would be too complicated is an insult to DE's competence and intelligence :|

 

That's not the hard part, the hard part is scaling properly.

Let's say that 3 enemies that you've drawn aggro would give you 800 Damage Cap (DC from now on), now, if you are in defense you could easly draw aggro around 20, that would make around 5333 DC (correct me if i'm wrong, my math is rusty) and that's not even counting their level. If I'm in wave 6 in Io, they would never get my shields down, but if I'm wave 36 in Xini I'll be far less useful. This would make the ablity really OP in low levels. So we scale it with levels? How do you do that? sum each level number and divide for the total enemy quantity, and then?

 

So in the end you have to take in account the number of enemies, the level of the enemies, the rank of the mod and somehow make a fair DC, that's supposing that it doesn't get bugged, and when we work with that many things that's bound to happen.

 

And that's only from the developer point, from the player point, the damage cap would vary too much to make it reliable, making it that sometimes you have 1000DC and sometimes 7000DC in the same mission.

 

Now wouldn't be so much easy to just bring invulnerability back and increase the energy cost?

[Aggh]

That's not the hard part, the hard part is scaling properly.

Let's say that 3 enemies that you've drawn aggro would give you 800 Damage Cap (DC from now on), now, if you are in defense you could easly draw aggro around 20, that would make around 5333 DC (correct me if i'm wrong, my math is rusty) and that's not even counting their level. If I'm in wave 6 in Io, they would never get my shields down, but if I'm wave 36 in Xini I'll be far less useful. This would make the ablity really OP in low levels. So we scale it with levels? How do you do that? sum each level number and divide for the total enemy quantity, and then?

 

So in the end you have to take in account the number of enemies, the level of the enemies, the rank of the mod and somehow make a fair DC, that's supposing that it doesn't get bugged, and when we work with that many things that's bound to happen.

 

And that's only from the developer point, from the player point, the damage cap would vary too much to make it reliable, making it that sometimes you have 1000DC and sometimes 7000DC in the same mission.

 

Now wouldn't be so much easy to just bring invulnerability back and increase the energy cost?

That's the kind of math that game devs make a living working out.  They'll have to come to a decision as to how effective they want iron skin to be and playtest the numbers to see how it works out.

 

All fully ranked skills are OP at low levels.  Hell, at low levels you shouldn't even need iron skin to be OP.

 

Btw, determining a balanced duration and cost for full on invulnerability would be just as much work.  People just like to think that it's easy to balance a mechanic like that because it seems so simple at first glance.

[K1LLZ0NE]

You guys do realize they probably have no intention of doing that, right?  The directions that they have gone with each revision have made this pretty clear.  The best bet right now is to work with what is being offered.

 

Just because they may not do it doesn't mean its not the right thing to do.  As long as there are better abilities on worse 'frames I will continue to fight for it.

[Aggh]

Just because they may not do it doesn't mean its not the right thing to do.  As long as there are better abilities on worse 'frames I will continue to fight for it.

Good for you.  It's not going to happen though.  How about instead of wasting peoples' time, you actually work towards a solution that is viable for all parties?

[fishworshipper]

That's the kind of math that game devs make a living working out.  They'll have to come to a decision as to how effective they want iron skin to be and playtest the numbers to see how it works out.

 

All fully ranked skills are OP at low levels.  Hell, at low levels you shouldn't even need iron skin to be OP.

 

Btw, determining a balanced duration and cost for full on invulnerability would be just as much work.  People just like to think that it's easy to balance a mechanic like that because it seems so simple at first glance.

100 energy, 45 second cooldown.

Cant be hard to copy-paste some code and tweak it a bit, especially when considering your alternative.

[fishworshipper]

Good for you.  It's not going to happen though.  How about instead of wasting peoples' time, you actually work towards a solution that is viable for all parties?

How about you stop being so darn negative?