May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[Aggh]

Again, that's not the hard part. The hard part is that you have a lot of inputs and have to come up with a proper output, bearing in mind that you will have a lot of diferent scenarios; Like having few enemies with high level or lots of enemies with low level, etc. taking in account both the mod rank and focus if it will be affected by it. Making an algorithm that does all that and gives you a logical and fair damage cap in al cases is not an easy task, debuging it isn't either. 

 

And when do you propose they playtest? as far as we know, U8 is in 2 days, and I don't want to be stuck with this Iron Skin until the next patch. In any case, like vonDirk proposed, make a temporary fix. Make it so it once was costs more energy and has less durability, see how well it goes and leave it like that if they are happy with it.

 

Oh, and most Rhino players will be happy if they make iron skin how it once was but with increased enegy cost, it's not a problem if it will be bad of if we will be complaining, it's the most logical solution to this predicament, I don't know why DE just doesn't do that for now and think if they want to rework it later.

 

Lol wut?  How is [number of enemies effected]*[damage cap number added per number of enemies affected]= [damage cap] a complex algorithm?  Focus would affect either duration or the amount added to the damage cap.  The only thing that would take some work is determining what kind of increments the damage cap should increase.  This shouldn't be too hard though if they're tracking player data well enough.  The same exact arguments can be applied to the duration of invulnerability and the energy cost of the suggestion being pushed by the angry mob btw.  Both will take a decent amount of work to balance properly.

 

 

 

Prove that it wouldn't be.  Or that your suggestion would be more balanced.  Or prove any other suggestion would be more balanced.

My suggestion would allow the devs the ability to actually determine what kind of difficulty they want players using rhino skin to have with a lot more precision than simple god mode would allow.  Having the ability to tank scale with how many mobs are being agroed means that players will have to kill the mobs within a reasonable amount of time and possibly even with a bit of skill since they won't be able to just stand there and tank without worrying about any anything.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Aggh

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Prove that it wouldn't be.  Or that your suggestion would be more balanced.  Or prove any other suggestion would be more balanced.

Alright, to be fair here, it's not his job to prove your idea is unbalanced, the suggester needs to prove his idea is true/balanced (although balance is kinda a gut issue, everyone will disagree mostl likely on some point about balance)

(Don't get me wrong, I think your idea of 15 seconds of invul for 100 energy is fine)

 

On the topic of it being balanced, You now can ONLY spam it 3 times with a maxed flow mod (maybe once more with eng regen, AND streamline, so 4 times tops without orbs), compared to the 6 times before, (or 3 times base) which seems fairly balanced to me.

 

Because unless you have a specific rare mod, AND took the time + fusion energy + cost you won't be able to spam it. And with the abundance of energy, taking orbs dropped from enemies, you only get 25% back, compared to 50% which again, goes aways to keeping it balanced.

Edited May 23, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[vonDirk]

Then what titles have you worked on?  I've seen this "I'm a game designer" nonsense way too often in forums like these.

 

The devs are already planning to add a new mechanic in their current suggestion so it's laughable to suggest that anything that introduces a new mechanic is automatically bad or not wort the time that would be spent on it.  Everyone is working on the assumption that the old Iron skin was actually a good thing.  It certainly wasn't OP, but it was incredibly vanilla with little risk to it.  The only real problem with the nerf was that Rhino's other abilities weren't reworked too to make up for the loss of effectiveness.

I worked on "Master of Defense", "Stone of Destiny", "Epicenter", "Jump Out!", "Doodle God" and few other games. And i'm working on some social game now. We are not a big team too (10 people), so I need to do a lot of things, like play-testing or just testing the game. Have you ever testing the Hidden-Object game on different language, because someone send feedback, that after you completed it four times in a row - you got error? I tested. On Spanish, four times, from the very beggining till the end. And I'm testing the game, we are making now, too - and it could take few days, and still we have some bugs left - and players shows them to us. And every time we need to implement new mechanics (and we need it often) - we need to test everything from scratch. Because there can be some things, that will not work properly with new methods, or we need to rewrite some part, because we need more stability or more comfortable ways for our players. There are some issues - and there are some bugs. There are some methods or things, that was unintentional - but were very useful for players - and for us. Because players have fun - is good. That means the game serves the main goal - to be entertainment, not hard work or duty.

Now about Rhino. As you could notice - if you read whole my post, not only part about development - I suggest this decision as FAST and MAYBE TEMPORARY, so they could concentrate on main update and don't make any changes to Rhino just because everyone want to. Make some warframe balanced isn't easy, so fast and untested changes can be even worse. It takes time - a lot of time! - and efforts of many people, not only designers, but artists, programmers and so on.

So, will everyone be happy, if they will get Rhino back with bunch of bugs fast, with unbalanced and untested abilities, or fine reworked Rhino, who still need to be tested by players after few weeks? Or it will be good to give most of them Rhino back with familiar skills, familiar role and familiar style, and give them new reworked and fine tested Rhino in few months?

Or, maybe, it's better to get something new, that were implemented just for Rhino - and get some bugs from this, like when you get 10000 damage cap because of many chargers near and 500 DC, when you are surrounded by high level Greenir/Corpus, who stay far from you and just trying to land headshot into Rhino's head?

Edited May 23, 2013 by vonDirk

[Aggh]

Alright, to be fair here, it's not his job to prove your idea is unbalanced, the suggester needs to prove his idea is true/balanced (although balance is kinda a gut issue, everyone will disagree mostl likely on some point about balance)

(Don't get me wrong, I think your idea of 15 seconds of invul for 100 energy is fine)

 

On the topic of it being balanced, You now can ONLY spam it 3 times with a maxed flow mod (maybe once more with eng regen, AND streamline, so 4 times tops without orbs), compared to the 6 times before, (or 3 times base) which seems fairly balanced to me.

 

Because unless you have a specific rare mod, AND took the time + fusion energy + cost you won't be able to spam it. And with the abundance of energy, taking orbs dropped from enemies, you only get 25% back, compared to 50% which again, goes aways to keeping it balanced.

Obviously no energy orbs will drop in 45 seconds of god mode.  Also, with even just one energy siphon it would be four uses.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Obviously no energy orbs will drop in 45 seconds of god mode.  Also, with even just one energy siphon it would be four uses.

45 seconds *.5 = 22.5 (plus orbs) And I never said they wouldn't if you read my post, I said making 100 energy would make the orbs LESS effective, restoring only 25% (base) instead of 50%, making it harder to abuse. Really now, when did a rhino ruin your game by tanking something nasty? Never? Sounds about right.

 

Sure, it might be annoying to see a guy run around in pure tinfoil 24/7, but he's slow, his damage is way less than anyone else's (unless they're rushing and ignoring all the enemies), and he's given up any speed really for the ability to not get harmed (plus, he's the only xp locked frame).

 

But know what's more annoying? Watching people abuse the slide attack THROUGH THE ENTIRE MISSION, I'm surprised not very many people complained about this. First time I saw it, I thought "Wow, he can slide through the mission staggering enemies he passes, hitting multiple enemies, AND rush through at the same time WHILE being a small target so he's hard to hit. What a jerk, abusing the system which might end up with no slide attacks for anyone! (or reduced damage or something)

 

edit:

The slide melee attack is something that's just been recently bugging me, I've been seeing in like the past 5-6 games atleast, where people just spam it, so ignore it if you want, I can't think of any way to really stop people from using it and still allow it to be used normally.

Edited May 23, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[fishworshipper]

Obviously no energy orbs will drop in 45 seconds of god mode.  Also, with even just one energy siphon it would be four uses.

I love how you say "PROVE CONCLUSIVELY THAT YOUR IDEAS WOULD BALANCE GAMEPLAY" yet refuse to prove that your idea would balance gameplay...

Some people...

[Aggh]

I worked on "Master of Defense", "Stone of Destiny", "Epicenter", "Jump Out!", "Doodle God" and few other games. And i'm working on some social game now. We are not a big team too (10 people), so I need to do a lot of things, like play-testing or just testing the game. Have you ever testing the Hidden-Object game on different language, because someone send feedback, that after you completed it four times in a row - you got error? I tested. On Spanish, four times, from the very beggining till the end. And I'm testing the game, we are making now, too - and it could take few days, and still we have some bugs left - and players shows them to us. And every time we need to implement new mechanics (and we need it often) - we need to test everything from scratch. Because there can be some things, that will not work properly with new methods, or we need to rewrite some part, because we need more stability or more comfortable ways for our players. There are some issues - and there are some bugs. There are some methods or things, that was unintentional - but were very useful for players - and for us. Because players have fun - is good. That means the game serves the main goal - to be entertainment, not hard work or duty.

 

Now about Rhino. As you could notice - if you read whole my post, not only part about development - I suggest this decision as FAST and MAYBE TEMPORARY, so they could concentrate on main update and don't make any changes to Rhino just because everyone want to. Make some warframe balanced isn't easy, so fast and untested changes can be even worse. It takes time - a lot of time! - and efforts of many people, not only designers, but artists, programmers and so on.

So, will everyone be happy, if they will get Rhino back with bunch of bugs fast, with unbalanced and untested abilities, or fine reworked Rhino, who still need to be tested by players after few weeks? Or it will be good to give most of them Rhino back with familiar skills, familiar role and familiar style, and give them new reworked and fine tested Rhino in few months?

 

Or, maybe, it's better to get something new, that were implemented just for Rhino - and get some bugs from this, like when you get 10000 damage cap because of mane chargers and 500 DC, when you are surrounded by Greenir/Corpus, who stay far from you and just trying to land headshot into Rhino's head?

 

 

Fast decisions at the behest of a reactionary player base are the worst kind of game balance.  Even if it's only temporary, it'll just mean that players will get &!$$ed when you change it again.

 

If enough chargers are agro'd a 10k cap might be justified.  If you're surrounded by grineer/corpus you're most likely still going to agro a decent amount of them depending on what kind of radius the ability has (it will likely be pretty large, stretch mods would probably help too), super low damage caps could be avoided with an appropriate base damage cap that the ability would have regardless of how many enemies are agro'd.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Aggh

[K1LLZ0NE]

Alright, to be fair here, it's not his job to prove your idea is unbalanced, the suggester needs to prove his idea is true/balanced...

 

I agree that the suggester needs to prove his own ideas.  I was just trying to get him to prove his own, instead of asking others to prove theirs.  Didn't mean to sound like I was singling him out.  The point is if you can't quantify your own suggestion the try not to be so harsh on others.

 

Edit:  By "prove" I just mean that you should be able to make a reasonable argument.

Edited May 23, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[Aggh]

45 seconds *.5 = 22.5 (plus orbs) And I never said they wouldn't if you read my post, I said making 100 energy would make the orbs LESS effective, restoring only 25% (base) instead of 50%, making it harder to abuse. Really now, when did a rhino ruin your game by tanking something nasty? Never? Sounds about right.

 

Sure, it might be annoying to see a guy run around in pure tinfoil 24/7, but he's slow, his damage is way less than anyone else's (unless they're rushing and ignoring all the enemies), and he's given up any speed really for the ability to not get harmed (plus, he's the only xp locked frame).

 

But know what's more annoying? Watching people abuse the slide attack THROUGH THE ENTIRE MISSION, I'm surprised not very many people complained about this. First time I saw it, I thought "Wow, he can slide through the mission staggering enemies he passes, hitting multiple enemies, AND rush through at the same time WHILE being a small target so he's hard to hit. What a jerk, abusing the system which might end up with no slide attacks for anyone! (or reduced damage or something)

 

edit:

The slide melee attack is something that's just been recently bugging me, I've been seeing in like the past 5-6 games atleast, where people just spam it, so ignore it if you want, I can't think of any way to really stop people from using it and still allow it to be used normally.

 

50 energy orbs become quite common at higher levels.  Btw, it's kind of a double standard to be mad about slide attacks, but not have a problem with rhino being able to tank non stop.

 

 

 

I love how you say "PROVE CONCLUSIVELY THAT YOUR IDEAS WOULD BALANCE GAMEPLAY" yet refuse to prove that your idea would balance gameplay...

Some people...

I love how I explained it and detail and you didn't bother reading it or trying to rebut any of my points.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Aggh

[fishworshipper]

Typed it before, gonna type it again.

...Seriously, when has Rhino Iron-Skinning EVER made ANYONE mad?

"GRRR, THAT GUY'S SELFLESS COMPASSION AND REVIVES FILL ME WITH MURDER FRENZY! NERF HIM TO THE GROUND!"

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I agree that the suggester needs to prove his own ideas.  I was just trying to get him to prove his own, instead of asking others to prove theirs.  Didn't mean to sound like I was singling him out.  The point is if you can't quantify your own suggestion the try not to be so harsh on others.

 

Edit:  By "prove" I just mean that you should be able to make a reasonable argument.

ah ok, I didn't read your both of all your posts, just a point I thought I'd throw out, and to get involved in here too.

 

edit:

 

 

 

50 energy orbs become quite common at higher levels.  Btw, it's kind of a double standard to be mad about slide attacks, but not have a problem with rhino being able to tank non stop.

those orbs ONLY come from breakables, which can be rare if you're unlucky, and again, still more balanced as the orbs only fill 50% of a use, not 100%

 

"Btw, it's kind of a double standard to be mad about slide attacks, but not have a problem with rhino being able to tank non stop."

 

No, I'm against both, being able to abuse both ruins it for everyone, which is the problem here, a few people abuse it and ruin it for everyone.

 

Now, please explain why 100 energy for a use is OP, broken, and a bad idea + justify your idea, and in your own words:

 

Then prove conclusively that your suggestion would be balanced.

Edited May 23, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[vonDirk]

Ok, the last thing about why i think, that Iron Skin wasn't OP at all. It's not even a god mode. It's just an ability. It's not "1-hit-kill", but "let-me-live" ability. You think, it's too good?

Loki have Invisibility for 10 seconds (without Continuity) and +200% from Charged Melee. With his speed he can clear whole room (middle-size) of enemies and only enemy, who will have some problem with - Ancient Toxics. But he can use his long gun and side-arm too - and it's without any risks. And this costs only 50 energy. And NOONE saying, that Loki is OP. Why? Because he can be killed by poison? Well, Decoy works fine to distract enemies from him. And works fine if he need to get to some place, where no one can even touch him. It's his play style.

 

Ash have invisibility too, but with 35 energy cost, 6 seconds duration, enemies in 10m are staggered, have the same damage bonus. And he have Teleport, to get to his target fast. And great speed (Ash inferior in speed only Loki). 

 

They are not OP. It's their playstyle, their vision. And Iron Skin was foundation stone of Rhino. Yes, Rhino's other abilities need to be revised. But if you want to call something OP - look around. There are many things, that could be OP if abused.

[Aggh]

Ok, the last thing about why i think, that Iron Skin wasn't OP at all. It's not even a god mode. It's just an ability. It's not "1-hit-kill", but "let-me-live" ability. You think, it's too good?

Loki have Invisibility for 10 seconds (without Continuity) and +200% from Charged Melee. With his speed he can clear whole room (middle-size) of enemies and only enemy, who will have some problem with - Ancient Toxics. But he can use his long gun and side-arm too - and it's without any risks. And this costs only 50 energy. And NOONE saying, that Loki is OP. Why? Because he can be killed by poison? Well, Decoy works fine to distract enemies from him. And works fine if he need to get to some place, where no one can even touch him. It's his play style.

 

Ash have invisibility too, but with 35 energy cost, 6 seconds duration, enemies in 10m are staggered, have the same damage bonus. And he have Teleport, to get to his target fast. And great speed (Ash inferior in speed only Loki). 

 

They are not OP. It's their playstyle, their vision. And Iron Skin was foundation stone of Rhino. Yes, Rhino's other abilities need to be revised. But if you want to call something OP - look around. There are many things, that could be OP if abused.

I've never said it's OP, just that it's vanilla and provides little gameplay depth.  Even if he's a tank, there should be some risk.    This a problem that a lot of frame's abilities have.  It's problematic since the low risk high reward nature of most good abilities in the game means that it's hard to justify letting them scale well in higher levels.

 

 

 

ah ok, I didn't read your both of all your posts, just a point I thought I'd throw out, and to get involved in here too.

 

edit:

 

 

 

those orbs ONLY come from breakables, which can be rare if you're unlucky, and again, still more balanced as the orbs only fill 50% of a use, not 100%

 

"Btw, it's kind of a double standard to be mad about slide attacks, but not have a problem with rhino being able to tank non stop."

 

No, I'm against both, being able to abuse both ruins it for everyone, which is the problem here, a few people abuse it and ruin it for everyone.

 

Now, please explain why 100 energy for a use is OP, broken, and a bad idea + justify your idea, and in your own words:

Please explain to me why it's a good thing.  It could go either way.  100 energy might be too much, or it could still be easily abuseable.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Aggh

[KvotheTheArcane1]

-snip-

 

They are not OP. It's their playstyle, their vision. And Iron Skin was foundation stone of Rhino. Yes, Rhino's other abilities need to be revised. But if you want to call something OP - look around. There are many things, that could be OP if abused.

qft, if something is spammed enough, it becomes OP.

[fishworshipper]

I've never said it's OP, just that it's vanilla and provides little gameplay depth.  Even if he's a tank, there should be some risk.    This a problem that a lot of frame's abilities have.  It's problematic since the low risk high reward nature of most good abilities in the game means that it's hard to justify letting them scale well in higher levels.

 

 

 

Please explain to me why it's a good thing.  It could go either way.  100 energy might be too much, or it could still be easily abuseable.

I like how you're ignoring everyone asking for you to prove your own ideas if you're going to tell us to prove ours.

Really adds a nice hint of troll to the discussion at hand.

[TennoSkoom]

Well, it's nice plan, but: they need to implement new thing (like ground wall), so that's mean new animations, new environment changes (and it's really hard, how you suppose to use it in the corner? Or with those boxes all around?), even more testing, looks inferior to Snow Globe (really, Snow Globe is better in any cases - because it protects everyone from ALL sides, allow you and teammates shot through transparent ice wall, so you have real cover. And make Iron Skin 100 energy is a bit too harsh - it's not "kill-them-all" feature, it's "let-me-live-little-longer". 50 energy is low, but 75 is perfect, IMO.

it shouldn't be superior to snowglobe because that would then outmode frost. we're looking for balance instead of making one warframe better than the rest.

[Aggh]

I like how you're ignoring everyone asking for you to prove your own ideas if you're going to tell us to prove ours.

Really adds a nice hint of troll to the discussion at hand.

I like how I did that a page back, you still haven't bothered responding to it, and have now proceeded to spew bullS#&$ instead of actively contributing to the discussion.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Aggh

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I've never said it's OP, just that it's vanilla and provides little gameplay depth.  Even if he's a tank, there should be some risk.    This a problem that a lot of frame's abilities have.  It's problematic since the low risk high reward nature of most good abilities in the game means that it's hard to justify letting them scale well in higher levels.

 

 

 

Please explain to me why it's a good thing.  It could go either way.  100 energy might be too much, or it could still be easily abuseable.

I already did explain why NOW YOUR TURN.

 

Then prove conclusively that your suggestion would be balanced.

do it or gg already. reading a page back 1 sec.

 

 

Lol wut?  How is [number of enemies effected]*[damage cap number added per number of enemies affected]= [damage cap] a complex algorithm?  it's not

 

Focus would affect either duration or the amount added to the damage cap. 

damage cap as focus = power, damage cap = the power in this case.

 

The only thing that would take some work is determining what kind of increments the damage cap should increase.  ok

 

This shouldn't be too hard though if they're tracking player data well enough. 

ok, but what if lots of peopel play rhino at low levels where they don't take much damage? Remember it has to be balanced late game too.

 

The same exact arguments can be applied to the duration of invulnerability and the energy cost of the suggestion being pushed by the angry mob btw.  Both will take a decent amount of work to balance properly.

sure, no question there, but yours would be harder to balance as it would need MASSIVE amounts of data (compared to the other solution, as you have to track the damage taken, etc)

 

 

 

My suggestion would allow the devs the ability to actually determine what kind of difficulty they want players using rhino skin to have with a lot more precision than simple god mode would allow.  Having the ability to tank scale with how many mobs are being agroed means that players will have to kill the mobs within a reasonable amount of time and possibly even with a bit of skill since they won't be able to just stand there and tank without worrying about any anything.

I see no arguments/reasoning presented here besides

 

"My suggestion would allow the devs the ability to actually determine what kind of difficulty they want players using rhino skin to have with a lot more precision than simple god mode would allow."

 

which would be a fairly big undertaking because they have to balance it for end game too. They can use your idea to balance it for one section (early, mid, or late).

If they focus on early game, it's weak after that.

If they focus on mid, it's "op" early game, weak late game.

if they focus on late game, it's "op" early and mid, but balanced late game. (because enemies deal different damage at different levels obv.)

Edited May 23, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[vonDirk]

Fast decisions at the behest of a reactionary player base are the worst kind of game balance.  Even if it's only temporary, it'll just mean that players will get &!$$ed when you change it again.

 

If enough chargers are agro'd a 10k cap might be justified.  If you're surrounded by grineer/corpus you're most likely still going to agro a decent amount of them depending on what kind of radius the ability has (it will likely be pretty large, stretch mods would probably help too), super low damage caps could be avoided with an appropriate base damage cap that the ability would have regardless of how many enemies are agro'd.

Fast decision are necessary for action game, isn't it? And if people will know, that this changes are temporary - they will be more calm. And they will think more rationally. And maybe there will no need to change Iron Skin if the energy cost will be increased. And it's a good decision, because players will know for sure, that they are not money-bags, but real testers, who give their feedback, suggest ideas and useful for the game in common. That's the point.

 

And why you can be so sure, that there will be no bugs? They were supposed to decrease DR to 80% with CC immunity. Sounds pretty simple - but we get no CC immunity and only 70% of DR. They are people too. They can make mistakes too, especially if they were tired and it's almost weekend, but if you make a online game - you need to be ready to solve problems fast. And DE do such things - when servers were down, they worked hard and restored them very fast. But server errors and balance errors are different. And if they made Rhino undesirable warframe - it's bad. And need to be solved fast.

The main thing about ANY online game - if community is really angry because of your update, and it's not really necessary update, that affects everything - it's better to rollback and reworked it once more. DE don't need to give us promises or something. It's their game, but if they create such changes - they need to give players at least guide, how they can use it now. A little tutorial, maybe. Because i can't see anything in what Rhino will be at least equal to other warframes.

[7.T.]

That's a guess on your part. What if you can't save your &#! or revive team mates often enough?

    It would be more reliable than the current system suggests for this situation. I may not be able to do it often enough compared to the 50 energy old version but with full invincibility at 75 or 100 I know I will be able to do it in that instance instead of still having the risk of being torn to bits anyway. Don't misunderstand me, this is not an attack. Your posts have had some good points. Though I understand that you might feel as if your being ganged up on and I wish this whole thing could go more smoothly as I'm sure everyone else does.

    To reiterate and in replying to this statement alone, I'd get fewer, yes, but still (without getting technical and specific about a given situation) guaranteed instances of being able to help or save myself with full invincibility at a cost of 75/100 compared to the % or 800 damage versions at higher or end game levels. As a Rhino player I know with how I used the ability (i.e. not spamming) that the change in cost would still work out fine and if it were to be his Ult, it would make sense as it is his only unique ability. And I do agree that while D.E. is capable of implementing your suggestion, I believe that the change in cost version would be preferable and more stable thing to do if they are planning to make a change with U8 scheduled to come out this week (or 7 days from today. However DERebecca meant it). Even if it means swapping his other skills around then revisiting them later.

    Also, honest question since I'd rather not attempt the math at the moment, if your suggestion implies more survivability at high levels, how much difference would there actually be between it and invincibility? Just since I've been trying to word this post correctly, things in the thread have come back to being able to spam the ability due to energy drops. If your system provided high level protection, can you help me understand how it would be different with having an abundance of energy drops? I actually don't think this should be included in the debate as any ability can be spammed with sufficient energy and no cooldown period. Unless you want a cooldown I guess. I don't know, since I took so long typing this, things may have changed by now. If so I apologize in advance for either redundance or incorrect assumptions. As far as Rhino needing to take a risk, well, I don't know how to include risk to an ability meant for powerful defense. That I guess comes back to needing a cooldown to satisfy that as far as I know and as I said, I simply don't know if the majority or even D.E. wants a cooldown. I say again, I'm just wanting info. Not an attack or putting your idea down.

    To D.E.: I want it to be known that I understand why people feel strongly about this and no matter what (and I think everyone here agrees), I already like the game so unless something extreme happens to the game as a whole, things like this and whatever you eventually decide to do with Rhino wont change that. We apparently just like Rhino more than I thought lol I only play solo except for when my little brother has time to play co-op. I assumed Rhino was or would be unpopular due to his speed which didn't bother me. Even with the Thrak helm.

​EDIT: Typos abound. Apologies.

Edited May 23, 2013 by 7.T.

[K1LLZ0NE]

it shouldn't be superior to snowglobe because that would then outmode frost. we're looking for balance instead of making one warframe better than the rest.

 

First off, I don't think Iron Skin was "superior" to Snow Globe.  Whether or not one is better than the other can be easily argued.  While you may be able to move with Iron Skin, Snow Globe can protect allies, plus make any close range enemies easy prey.  Also it should be noted that Frost is more of a caster 'frame.  So Rhino's "tanking" abilities should be "superior".

Edited May 23, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[fishworshipper]

I like how I did that a page back, you still haven't bothered responding to it, and have now proceeded to spew bullS#&$ instead of actively contributing to the discussion.

Then prove conclusively that your suggestion would be balanced.

 

 

That's a guess on your part.  What if you can't save your &#! or revive team mates often enough?

As if you've been doing any better.

Now, to prove that my suggestion is good (because you seem to get off to that), it is easy to implement, reduces the chance of bugging, would please a large playerbase, and would allow me to revive teammates instead of get gibbed because my enemies have about 5k dps each.

And it wouldn't be spammable, solving the ONLY ACTUAL PROBLEM WITH IRON SKIN.

Now, lets see your response (assuming you make one).

Edited May 23, 2013 by fishworshipper

[vonDirk]

I've never said it's OP, just that it's vanilla and provides little gameplay depth.  Even if he's a tank, there should be some risk.    This a problem that a lot of frame's abilities have.  It's problematic since the low risk high reward nature of most good abilities in the game means that it's hard to justify letting them scale well in higher levels.

 

 

 

Please explain to me why it's a good thing.  It could go either way.  100 energy might be too much, or it could still be easily abuseable.

It's a game. You don't like little gameplay depth? You can go with any other warframe. Really, why not? It will give you different experience. I have Excalibur, Rhino, Frost, Banshee and now Nyx. All of them need their own style, i can't use them the same way. Nyx can't rush into danger (well, without her Absorb ready), so do Banshee. Excalibur - can. Iron Skin wasn't "easy mode" button. You can be killed, if Iron Skin ends, and you get hit from Disruptor (yes, i have this situation), you get stunned, you were pushed back or OHKO with Jackal's grenades. You can die. Especially, if you are solo. But everyone is complain that it's too OP, when you have full party with energy siphon artifacts. Know what? One Trinity with Energy Vampire - and you can spam ANY ability with ANY warframe you want. Endless. Trinity can be far away (because all her skills have a nice range), with Snipetron - and replenish her energy with one shot. So she can cast Energy Vampire all the time. And any other warframe, who will replenish his energy too can spam his ultimate (especially with Streamline mod) as often, as he wants. So if they want to spam their Iron Skin - they still could. Anyone could. But a very few do this. Why? Because it's not fun. If you need challenge - you can unequip this ability. That's your choice. But let the other will be able to make their own choice, not forced to.

 

qft, if something is spammed enough, it becomes OP.

Then my Rhino Charge is really OP - i use it a lot more than Iron Skin.

 

it shouldn't be superior to snowglobe because that would then outmode frost. we're looking for balance instead of making one warframe better than the rest.

This is ability with the same goal - to protect your teammates, so they are close. And you will be compared with the Snow Globe - because it's almost the same ability. So not Rhino Charge will be weak version of Excalibur's Slash Dash, but this new ability will be like weak version of Snow Globe (no offence, i like this ability, but I don't think, that it suits Rhino)

[KvotheTheArcane1]

-snip-

Then my Rhino Charge is really OP - i use it a lot more than Iron Skin.

 

-snip-

ok fair point there. I guess there is always some exceptions, but I should have specified that balanced abilities if spammed enough will seem broken.

Edited May 23, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[K1LLZ0NE]

ok fair point there. I guess there is always some exceptions, but I should have specified that balanced abilities if spammed enough will seem broken.

 

Well, actually, if you think about it, yes, even Rhino Charge can be considered OP if spammed enough.  Obviously I am about to go to an extreme here but the point still stands.  If you have built your Rhino and your team to use abilities, even Rhino Charge can be OP.  It deals damage and knocks down enemies and costs a whopping 25 energy (please note sarcasm) meaning that you can easily make back what you have spent.  You could probably even spend an entire wave of a defense mission Charging through enemies (also, not sure but I think Rhino is immune to damage while charging, I might be wrong tho).  Especially if you use Trinity the way vonDink suggested. Now of course this would lose effectiveness on tougher enemies, but I still feel my point was made.