May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[Kyrkitao]

Several effective minutes in a row of invulnerability is impossible to create challenges for. For the game to grow and progress, invulnerability must be removed. I would expect to see more things lose their invulnerability (see: sound quake) going forward, not fewer.

[s3kShUn08]

Rhino used to be my main Warframe but since he's recently been stabbed in the face with a soldering iron I've stopped using him fully.

So my thoughts are that he should have full invul from everything (Disrupt, toxic, etc....) like he did before, and I also think he should still have a timelimit ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE ADDING AGGRO.

Aggro is a fine idea but not with a damage cap, if you wanted to raise the energy cost or something I would find that acceptable but 800d is pitiful.

Especially seeing as how I've heard talks of increasing difficultys. >.>

All in all this nerf seemed ENTIRELY unessesary, with the only logical reason I can think of being that you nerfed Iron Skin because of the Dojo Sparing things to come in Update 8.

A step in the right direction BUT all i can say is go fight some grineers with grakata that are lvl 40 and tell me how fast that 800 dmg dries up into nothing. keep in mind THIS IS SPECULATION until it is changed BUT im guessing you get 3 seconds MAX at 800 dmg which brungs us bck to if the length of Rhinos orginal iron skin was the issue WHY THE HUGE CHANGE. This is essentially the SAME POWER PRE-PATCH with a shorter time limit and a higher cost + a 5 second cooldown? HOW DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE.

No offense @DERebecca but this whole situation has become so utterly ridiculous and has caused NOTHING but problems in the community and with how people percieve the game and the way DEVs make changes.

Edited May 23, 2013 by s3kShUn08

[Zyfe3rX]

Several effective minutes in a row of invulnerability is impossible to create challenges for. For the game to grow and progress, invulnerability must be removed. I would expect to see more things lose their invulnerability (see: sound quake) going forward, not fewer.

 

 

* Removes invisibility , smoke bomb *

OR

* damage taken while invisible is 4x*

* no more 100% critic chance for invisibility*

 

 

AGREE ?

 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I'd be happy with this, TBH. Still scales for high level enemies. It doesn't make sense for poison to be able to seep through that magical tinfoil. :D

no, it doesn't really, have you tried it on pluto? they tear you apart.

 

edit:

 

 

Several effective minutes in a row of invulnerability is impossible to create challenges for. For the game to grow and progress, invulnerability must be removed. I would expect to see more things lose their invulnerability (see: sound quake) going forward, not fewer.

just reduce the duration, increase the cost, or add a cooldown. Why is "not be killed by anyone"buttons OP, and "kill everyone ever" buttons not?

Edited May 23, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Appsin]

Several effective minutes in a row of invulnerability is impossible to create challenges for. For the game to grow and progress, invulnerability must be removed. I would expect to see more things lose their invulnerability (see: sound quake) going forward, not fewer.

First off without invincibilty, Rhino is comepletly worthless as a tank late game. Effectively making the class pointless to play as.

Second off 

* Removes invisibility , smoke bomb *

OR

* damage taken while invisible is 4x*

* no more 100% critic chance for invisibility*

 

 

AGREE ?

 

Invisiblity might as well be invul, nothings attacking you plus all that extra damage actually makes Loki's invis technically better in all regards but one.

Immunity to toxic and knockdown, which was EXACTLY WHY THE RHINOS IRON SKIN WAS UNIQUE.

[Kyrkitao]

* Removes invisibility , smoke bomb *

OR

* damage taken while invisible is 4x*

* no more 100% critic chance for invisibility*

 

 

AGREE ?

No, I don't. Invisibility is not invulnerability.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

No, I don't. Invisibility is not invulnerability.

as long as you're careful, you aren't being shot at, so it might as well be.

 

edit:

While it doesn't protect you from damage, it does stop all enemies from targeting you AND allows you to deal more damage.

Edited May 23, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[ArsVampyre]

Several effective minutes in a row of invulnerability is impossible to create challenges for. For the game to grow and progress, invulnerability must be removed. I would expect to see more things lose their invulnerability (see: sound quake) going forward, not fewer.

Provably false. Ever try to solo defend the pod as Rhino? No matter how invulnerable you are, the pod can get overwhelmed because it is not invulnerable. Mission objects are more than just survival.

I realize that's a narrow scenario, but it's not impossible to create a challenge even then.

I invite you to speculate on the topic more and come back when you've thought about it more clearly.

[Kyrkitao]

just reduce the duration, increase the cost, or add a cooldown. Why is "not be killed by anyone"buttons OP, and "kill everyone ever" buttons not?

Those are alternative solutions to the problem. I wasn't trying to claim that the proposed and already implemented ones were the only ones, merely that this was a problem and it needed changing for the good of the game.

 

 

First off without invincibilty, Rhino is comepletly worthless as a tank late game. Effectively making the class pointless to play as.

Second off 

Invisiblity might as well be invul, nothings attacking you plus all that extra damage actually makes Loki's invis technically better in all regards but one.

Immunity to toxic and knockdown, which was EXACTLY WHY THE RHINOS IRON SKIN WAS UNIQUE.

To your first point, that's a separate topic. Rhino's other skills being terrible does not mean that he should keep a skill that trivializes most encounters. (I yield on defense and mobile defense)

To your second point; they can design encounters that render invisibility less useful or useless. I suppose there a limited number of ways they can make invulnerability less useful too, but they appear to have chosen a different design direction (removing invulnerability from more abilities).

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kyrkitao

[Kyrkitao]

Provably false. Ever try to solo defend the pod as Rhino? No matter how invulnerable you are, the pod can get overwhelmed because it is not invulnerable. Mission objects are more than just survival.

I realize that's a narrow scenario, but it's not impossible to create a challenge even then.

I invite you to speculate on the topic more and come back when you've thought about it more clearly.

I will admit that I have not. I do not find defense missions entertaining and I do not find Rhino entertaining, I see no reason to combine the two. I will yield that several continuous minutes of effective invulnerability are ineffective at defending cryopods.

I do not see defense missions as the future of the game though. I admit I'm a 'young' player insomuch as I have not been here long. Have defense missions changed radically in the course of the game? I imagine they change only with new map and enemy additions.

I invite you to continue discussing this in a civil manner without veiled ad hominems.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kyrkitao

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I will admit that I have not. I do not find defense missions entertaining and I do not find Rhino entertaining, I see no reason to combine the two. I will yield that several continuous minutes of effective invulnerability are ineffective at defending cryopods.

I do not see defense missions as the future of the game though. I admit I'm a 'young' player insomuch as I have not been here long. Have defense missions changed radically in the course of the game? I imagine they change only with new map and enemy additions.

I invite you to continue discussing this in a civil manner without veiled ad hominems.

Have you played rhino? If you haven't then it's commenting on a subject with 2nd hand knowledge, vs people who have played him, and played him quite a bit.

 

I can agree, defense is not the future, but it is the only "end game" content right now (due to the fact that it's one of a few areas, if not the only area, to generate enemies above level 60, also how far do you get through defense missions, because they add new enemies up to wave 10, which really does create a challenge.)

[KrisStrife]

    The Design Council does not work this way. We only respond to specific topics posted by the Devs. Mostly new things like Warframe concepts, tile sets, or naming a Warframe. Suggestions are reviewed by the Devs, a poll is created from their choices, and we vote on which one of their choices we want. We are not allowed to create threads, nor would these types of posts be allowed as they would be off topic.

I'm honestly tempted to screen shot the design council page just to prove this point. Not sure how okay something like that would be, so I'm just going to start using this:

[Kyrkitao]

Have you played rhino? If you haven't then it's commenting on a subject with 2nd hand knowledge, vs people who have played him, and played him quite a bit.

 

I can agree, defense is not the future, but it is the only "end game" content right now (due to the fact that it's one of a few areas, if not the only area, to generate enemies above level 60, also how far do you get through defense missions, because they add new enemies up to wave 10, which really does create a challenge.)

I have played every mission and every frame (excluding Vauban; the money I've given to DE is to support them as a company and because I enjoyed their product, not because I buy things with platinum. I have purchased slots, colors, and nothing else so far). I have gone as high as wave 25 in a defense mission during the Moa event and I have leveled Rhino to 30. I do not claim perfect knowledge of the game, but I am familiar with most things (and have over 265 hours logged in game). What I meant with new enemy additions was the creation and addition to the game, not the slow filtering of various enemies as waves progress.

While my experience playing rhino is limited, I'm not wrong when I suggest that streamline, flow, and continuity combine to provide more than 2 straight minutes of invulnerability (excluding energy pick ups, energy siphon, and using your shields between invulnerability uses). That is doable without a potato, though the potato certainly helps for those times when you aren't invulnerable (as it would then allow a vitality, redirection, or whatever else you desire).

[MaNs1nH0]

DE please just make a poll and ask people to vote on the different choices.

 

Take all the feedback you have received and make those choices an option to vote.

 

I can almost 99% guarantee that if you did that and one of those choices was "Restore Iron Skin like it was", that choice would be the most voted one.

[Kyrkitao]

DE please just make a poll and ask people to vote on the different choices.

 

Take all the feedback you have received and make those choices an option to vote.

 

I can almost 99% guarantee that if you did that and one of those choices was "Restore Iron Skin like it was", that choice would be the most voted one.

Whether or not it is the most desired one by the community does not make it the correct one. People routinely choose against their own best interests. I suspect the game will be more interesting without invulnerability AND with Rhino having 3 or more usable abilities.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I have played every mission and every frame (excluding Vauban; the money I've given to DE is to support them as a company and because I enjoyed their product, not because I buy things with platinum. I have purchased slots, colors, and nothing else so far). I have gone as high as wave 25 in a defense mission during the Moa event and I have leveled Rhino to 30. I do not claim perfect knowledge of the game, but I am familiar with most things (and have over 265 hours logged in game). What I meant with new enemy additions was the creation and addition to the game, not the slow filtering of various enemies as waves progress.

While my experience playing rhino is limited, I'm not wrong when I suggest that streamline, flow, and continuity combine to provide more than 2 straight minutes of invulnerability (excluding energy pick ups, energy siphon, and using your shields between invulnerability uses). That is doable without a potato, though the potato certainly helps for those times when you aren't invulnerable (as it would then allow a vitality, redirection, or whatever else you desire).

I agree, using max energy mods would have gotten you 2minutes of invul, however and energy cost increase to 100 halves that, and/or a duration reduction reduces it further, and/or a cooldown would cause it to be used more tactfully, not just spammed when it's up.

[MaNs1nH0]

Whether or not it is the most desired one by the community does not make it the correct one. People routinely choose against their own best interests. I suspect the game will be more interesting without invulnerability AND with Rhino having 3 or more usable abilities.

 

There is no "correct one".

 

Why should the opinions of a few be more valid than the opinions of the majority?

 

If we go that path, than this is not a community...

[Kyrkitao]

There is no "correct one".

 

Why should the opinions of a few be more valid than the opinions of the majority?

 

If we go that path, than this is not a community...

Game development is not a democracy. It is a struggle to implement the feedback they are given in a manner which best allows for the game to be consumed and grow. They should take our feedback, but they should not blindly pursue our desires because our desires may not be the best route for the game to grow.

 

I agree, using max energy mods would have gotten you 2minutes of invul, however and energy cost increase to 100 halves that, and/or a duration reduction reduces it further, and/or a cooldown would cause it to be used more tactfully, not just spammed when it's up.

We are in agreement on this point. There were alternative solutions to the problem.

[K1LLZ0NE]

*snip*

While my experience playing rhino is limited, I'm not wrong when I suggest that streamline, flow, and continuity combine to provide more than 2 straight minutes of invulnerability (excluding energy pick ups, energy siphon, and using your shields between invulnerability uses). That is doable without a potato, though the potato certainly helps for those times when you aren't invulnerable (as it would then allow a vitality, redirection, or whatever else you desire).

 

You should not include the use of maxed out energy mods into the discussion.  Any 'frame's ability can be abused when certain combinations of mods are used.  This is a fault of the mod system, and not of the abilities. 

 

 

Those are alternative solutions to the problem. I wasn't trying to claim that the proposed and already implemented ones were the only ones, merely that this was a problem and it needed changing for the good of the game.

 

The problem is that neither of the suggestions that DE has made are really solutions.

 

To your first point, that's a separate topic. Rhino's other skills being terrible does not mean that he should keep a skill that trivializes most encounters. (I yield on defense and mobile defense)

 

 

 

Unless DE centers his abilities on doing damage he will always be sub-par (even if they give him damage dealing abilities, there will be others that do that better).  Warframe powers are centered around two aspects.  Offense and defense.  We already have many offensive 'frames, and it is my belief that Rhino was not meant to be an offensive 'frame.  As such, that means his abilities were meant to be primarily defense.  He accomplished this through the use of his invincibility mechanic.  Without such an ability he will always be outclassed by other 'frames.  Not only do his abilities center around defense, the entire warframe centers around close quarters combat.  This is obvious because all of his abilities are geared around keeping those around him off balance.  There is also his poor speed to take into account.  His other abilities clearly show how he is meant to be played, and he cannot be played the way intended without an invincibility mechanic.

Edited May 23, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[Kyrkitao]

You should not include the use of maxed out energy mods into the discussion.  Any 'frame's ability can be abused when certain combinations of mods are used.  This is a fault of the mod system, and not of the abilities.

You're wrong on both counts. No other frame could achieve the level of cheese that could be created in my setup. Attempting to balance without consideration of available modifications will not work either.

 

The problem is that neither of the suggestions that DE has made are really solutions.

I believe that 80% DR with knockdown, poison, and disruptors is a viable solution. It is a significant nerf, but it is a solution (I would make arguments about how it should be 70% and focus-able, but that's neither here nor there).

 

*snip*

Rhino cannot keep a skill that trivializes encounters even, and especially, if that skill is necessary to make the rest of his skills work. That's a clear indication that the other skills aren't good enough, not that he should keep his invulnerability.

[Zarozian]

If my Rhino "feels" different than it prior to the update, then they're doing it wrong.

[GroxXx777]

You're wrong on both counts. No other frame could achieve the level of cheese that could be created in my setup. Attempting to balance without consideration of available modifications will not work either.

 

I believe that 80% DR with knockdown, poison, and disruptors is a viable solution. It is a significant nerf, but it is a solution (I would make arguments about how it should be 70% and focus-able, but that's neither here nor there).

 

Rhino cannot keep a skill that trivializes encounters even, and especially, if that skill is necessary to make the rest of his skills work. That's a clear indication that the other skills aren't good enough, not that he should keep his invulnerability.

 

Not really, you can spam invicibility too for maximum cheeseness. 

80% DR it's not a solution by any account, That takes out all of your tanking capacity in late levels defense, which is for now the only end-game we have, ember has about 92% DR with her ult and she's suposed to be a caster frame, not a tank. And don't even get me starting to talk about trinity and how the healer ends up being the maximum tank.

MOST FRAMES has a skill that "trivializes" fights, this has been said in this thread countless times. If we can't have invulnerability then snow globe have to change, and invisibility too, and in all honesty, that's completely unnecessary. Just make it so we have invulnerability again so everybody would be happy and balanced with eachother, there's no need to do anything else.

[K1LLZ0NE]

You're wrong on both counts. No other frame could achieve the level of cheese that could be created in my setup. Attempting to balance without consideration of available modifications will not work either.

 

Yes they can.  Put maxed power mods on Excalibur and he can spam Slash Dash all day.  Put it on Banshee and the same can be said about Sound Quake.  As well as with Frost and Snow Globe. 

 

I believe that 80% DR with knockdown, poison, and disruptors is a viable solution. It is a significant nerf, but it is a solution (I would make arguments about how it should be 70% and focus-able, but that's neither here nor there).

 

 

This is not a viable solution in my opinion. 80% will get you shredded.  It might give you give something like two extra seconds to get to cover.

 

 

 

 

[Kyrkitao]

Not really, you can spam invicibility too for maximum cheeseness.

I'm pretty sure that was my point.

80% DR it's not a solution by any account, That takes out all of your tanking capacity in late levels defense, which is for now the only end-game we have, ember has about 92% DR with her ult and she's suposed to be a caster frame, not a tank. And don't even get me starting to talk about trinity and how the healer ends up being the maximum tank.

I'm not arguing that ember or trinity should be more durable than rhino. In fact, I'm on the record thinking that Link needs to be removed from Trinity because it does not fit the frame. We must be referring to different problems if you do not think that 80% damage reduction and status invulnerability is a viable solution to the problem of long duration invulnerability while retaining a durable feel. The game does not balance on high level defense missions. There are plenty of skills which lose all usefulness at high defense levels.

 

MOST FRAMES has a skill that "trivializes" fights, this has been said in this thread countless times. If we can't have invulnerability then snow globe have to change, and invisibility too, and in all honesty, that's completely unnecessary. Just make it so we have invulnerability again so everybody would be happy and balanced with eachother, there's no need to do anything else.

The conclusions that snow globe and invisibility have to change cannot be logically drawn from the fact that long duration invulnerability is impossible to create challenges around. Arguing that invulnerability should be restored is moot because it has been ruled out.

I feel as though I am beating a dead horse at this point, so I bid you good day. I sincerely hope that DE finds a solution that makes Rhino players happy while maintaining the design vision they have clearly chosen to pursue.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kyrkitao

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I believe that 80% DR with knockdown, poison, and disruptors is a viable solution. It is a significant nerf, but it is a solution (I would make arguments about how it should be 70% and focus-able, but that's neither here nor there).

I disagree most heavily based on my experience in tests. It might be viable for infested where the main threat is toxics and disruptors and melee spam can carry the day, but against grineer and corpus, 80% DR is absolutely nothing to high level ranged foes.

Indeed, when I tried it during a Ceres alert (level 38-40 grineer on average), I found that I could not close to melee when under the fire of just three enemies - two lancers and a trooper. My 800 shields were wiped out before I could cross the room even with the 80%, then I started taking practically irreplacable health damage before I could get within stab range. And it wasn't a particularly large room either. Granted my redirection mod isn't maxed, but even a maxed redirection only provides, what, an extra 400 on top of that? Add in just one more lancer and I would've died messily. And as anyone who's played high level missions and especially solo'd them will tell you, it's really easy to get shot at by more than four guys.

This is also why I'm dubious as to a damage cap of 800. In my experience, 800 damage is a couple of seconds out of cover in high level play. Infested chargers hit for 100+ a swing with two swings a second, grineer DPS with those grakatas is through the roof. And the taunt function is only going to exacerbate this issue, because everyone's going to be focusing on you, just like in solo play. Don't get me wrong, I like IS having a taunt function, but it only really works with invulnerability.

The issue is that it was too easily spammed before. Hence why the most popular answer is to bump it up to 75 or 100 energy, and/or introduce a cooldown.

This solution I could see working of it was like, 1600 damage cap, with it being mitigated by 80% DR, with the DR staying even if the cap is exceeded until the timer runs out.

 

The game does not balance on high level defense missions. There are plenty of skills which lose all usefulness at high defense levels.

It's not just high level defense missions. It's any high level mission. The same issue comes up on Pluto or alerts in Ceres. Really, any time the enemies are above level 35, their damage is such that DR just doesn't work for effective protection.

Also, high level content is almost assuredly coming down the pipeline.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger