Trinity Nerf? No Way

[Bibliothekar]

WoL is pretty useless at the moment once you reach a level that let's you equip and use Blessing. They both serve the same purpose: Healing your allies. But while Blessing just heals everyone in your party and fully restores their shields (actually, it's a bit broken at the moment, since it doesn't affect Sentinels, what it apparently should), with WoL you have to find a strong (meaning: lots of HP) target, mark that and your wounded ally has to shoot it to gain HP. And if you missed and marked a weak enemy, he'll be down immediately, leaving you with almost no HP won and having to wait until the timer's run up. (And that last part is even worse if you have Continuity equipped to increase the duration of Link and Blessing's invincibility.) Once you have Flow and leveled it a bit, there is no reason any more to use WoL instead of Blessing.

Even as Healing Aura (or whatever you might call it) it would stay pretty much unused if you have Blessing. Why would you only heal allies close to you if you can heal them no matter where they are. (Well, the only reason would be to punish rushers. And that should never be a reason.)

 

Trinity, as she is now, needs to be thought over and re-imagined, for she is even more of a one-trick-pony than Rhino was claimed to be.

 

Blessing is nice, but a revive downed friendly addition to it would be nice too.

Or you could make that a separate ability, as I had proposed. However, giving her an ability that revives fallen allies without the need to stand directly next to them - visual contact would still be required to some extent -, would make her valuable for every mission when you get overwhelmed. Even if they only regain have their health that way and need to replenish it via health orbs and such.

 

she could link enemies together similar to Warlock's link skill from DotA 2, where enemies that are linked together take damage as long as one is hit, so say I shoot a grineer lancer and he is linked to 5 others around him, my Bolter does 25dmg, they all take 25 dmg, assuming they all have the same HP i will kill all 6 (initial + 5 linked) with the amount of shots it takes to kill one.

That one's a nice idea, too. Even if you could only link two enemies, it would be great. Kill two disrupters for the price of one. :D

Or you could chain-link the enemies - set one as the starting point and it will automatically link them until there's no "free" enemy left within the next, say 20m a radius of 10m around the target. You hit enemy #1 and cascading down the chain, each one gets half the damage of the one before. Stagger and stunlock only till, say #5, unless it's an areal effect (e.g. Fragor). If one enemy dies, the chain either breaks into two or recombines the loose ends. Those, who go full contact with melee or their ult would still deal damage to every enemy at range - even more, since they all are linked and the damage cascades down the chain dozensfold. And those, who like to stand back, would only have to shoot at the big baddy.

I admit, it would be an absolute nightmare for calculating damage. But hey, that's what computers are made for - calculations.

Edited May 20, 2013 by 0cZc0bibliothekar

[TheaMatticks]

At high levels, energy vampire can easily give you back more energy than you spent on it.  Free energy is amazing.  Link is considered a problem because it lets you do the same thing  rhino did, except redirect damage at the exact same time.  The length of time that it lasts is pointless when you can get free energy with vampire and just recast.  So now trinity can just wade in a bit the crap out of mobs with whatever she wants.  This all on top of having and ability that heals the entire team and makes them all invincible.

 

Don't get me wrong, trinity is one of my favorite classes, but I'd like to see her reworked (specifically well of life, that's utterly pointless in the face of blessing).

[Sumnus]

I don't personally own her, but I've read about her extensively, since i'm looking into what to pick up as a second warframe, and these are my thoughts:

Numerically, her kit looks fine. The duration, values given in terms of health and energy, the kit looks fine.

 

 

The main two things I question are the two on-hit abilities being on-hit. I understand Energy Vampire could be potentially overpowered, but I play as Loki now, and I burn through energy rather quickly, and I pick up enough orbs from kills to be fine, and that's as someone who casts 20-40 spells per mission. So while it could potentially be abused to keep someone full/near full, that seems to happen for most people already, and it should be such in a PVE game, as it loses a lot of enjoyment if you can't utilize what makes warfames unique.

 

Her on-hit heal seems entirely useless, from someone looking from the "If I buy this Warframe, what will playing it be like?" perspective. Most units are dead before you could even target, and the few that aren't are rare enough that I can't see this being used nearly ever, perhaps with the exceptions of bosses, but with players being able to revive so consistently, I don't see any need for it to do that, even. Though the energy being on-hit against a boss could be quite useful for the squad.

Her 'ultimate', in the form of Blessing, is what I would expect from a healing-focused Warframe, and seems completely fine to me. It's more or less an "oh S#&$!" button.

 

As for link specifically, which is what this thread about, on paper, it looks rather "meh" to me. It doesn't seem overpowered or underpowered, it's more of just there. It's nice if she suddenly pulled a bunch of aggro, she can throw it on for a small duration (2/4/6/8 is rather short, in my opinion), long enough for her allies to get to her and help (assuming you're in a game that's not solo queue and people are actually helping you). 

Her kit seems fine from an outsider, I just question an on-hit mechanic at all, in a game of so many AOE kills, and 1-shots.
 

[Fireblac]

I really like trinity but I rarely ever use her skills besides Link and Blessing. Link is definately a bit too strong when it comes to survivability since you can synergize it with Energy Vampire and solo bosses or entire rooms/waves on end without taking a scratch. I could see them taking the damage redirection out and lowering the time link lasts or as someone mentioned above a set % of damage reduction and set % of damage reflection and I would still like the skill.

 

 

In my opinion there are so many ways they could go about changing all of her abilities but I really do like Blessing as it is though even that can be debated. I don't really ever reply in these forums and just enjoy the game but I felt I had to say something after agreeing with what few have said here so far.  Don't get me wrong, if they rework her completely I would like to see some of the same types of abilities and or hope it still feels somewhat similar playwise but I won't complain as long as she ends up somewhat decent in the end.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Fireblac

[TaTooKa]

personally. what bothered me most when I got to try Trinity is that I felt scammed: I was expecting to have a support warframe, her objective being healing first, energy regen second, killing last. didn't happen :P.

 

The support abilities seem to be useless unless fighting bosses or heavy monsters (everything dies too quickly to use the "aura" abilities of healing and e-regen properly). Also, in the chaos of the fight, most teammates fail to notice the auras being cast and miss the oportunity of being healed / regen'd.

 

I'm a noob in the game, but I could easily notice these flaws with Trinity. So +1 for the REWORK. 

As a suggestion for an "easy fix" maybe making Well of Life and Energy Vampire AOE abilities that target every enemy in a wide radius could improve her support role. (ofc lower their strength)

Also LINK should not make her an invincible tank, but to better enhance her support, make it so it's casted on a teammate. 

 

I don't know if adding cooldowns to abilities is in the game dev roadmap, but a simple thing like that can make a whole difference without actually nerfing the ability per se.

Edited May 21, 2013 by TaTooKa

[PopTartZombie]

The people that want it nerfed are SPIES!

THAT VOLT IS A SPY!

'lol wrong game'

Edited May 21, 2013 by PopTartZombie

[RalfJones]

The people who are screaming for Trinity nerfs don't have her, used to have her, or are the butthurt Rhinos who don't want invincibility given to anybody because DE stole it from them.

 

WOL: We can all agree that once you reach the level of EV, nobody really uses it because of the single target only cast and the 100 HP cap makes it worthless with swarms.

 

EV: Single target only cast again. Only can be used effectively on lone boss and minibosses and must be used after Link.  You will lose a lot of HP or come close to dying while casting when there are many enemies whacking or shooting you.  In non boss missions, you find one enemy to cast it on only to have a teammate kill it with a 4 or weapons.  Trin lost 50 energy and can die when the next set of enemies charge in if that was her last 50 energy. 

 

Link: Want to know why it has invulnerability?  Trin's armor are made of paper.  The same can be said for Nyx, Banshee, and Ember.  They all have a measly 10 Armor.  The other warframes have better armor rankings and have better panic button skills for S#&$storms.  For these 3 ladies, Nyx has chaos and absorb to help her out.  Banshee's 4 is now called the suicide button if used improperly.  At least, she has Sonic Boom to knock enemies away.  Ember's Overheat should have been given higher damage reduction than Rhino because chicken head ironically dies really fast when she is thrown into the fire.  

Link didn't last as long as the old 15 second Iron Skin time.  It requires a boss type enemy to use the EV+Link cycle.  Trinity only shines in that specific scenario.  90% of the time, she is just the hard mode warframe that hangs around using weapons.

 

Blessing: Guess what?  Blessing is also a suicide button if it is pressed while being attacked.  Trin is down before the skill can even finish healing when shields are down.  Ember is in the same boat.

 

On the other hand, Rhino has more armor, steel fiber mod luxury, and some more leeway time to activate Iron Skin and jump Rhino Charge for cover.  His other escape options are Radial Blast and Rhino Stomp.    

[Bibliothekar]

@DAWGUNITALPHA: This Thread was pretty nice and constructive criticism till now. Could we please leave those personal attacks out of here?

@RalfJones: That's why most people in this thread are not asking for a nerf, but for a rework. ;)

[VER1]

Rhino users:-

They take away my god mode and it hurts.

I want her god mode taken away too!

NOW!

 

Other users without god mode:-

It's good Rhino no longer has god mode (I don't have it)

Trinity is OP with Link and it needs to be nerfed, she is supposed to be a support warframe while I kill everything she is supposed to stand there watching until I say heal.

[Phoenix86]

Rhino users:-

They take away my god mode and it hurts.

I want her god mode taken away too!

NOW!

 

Other users without god mode:-

It's good Rhino no longer has god mode (I don't have it)

Trinity is OP with Link and it needs to be nerfed, she is supposed to be a support warframe while I kill everything she is supposed to stand there watching until I say heal.

 

Rhino user with a bit of salt in mind:

 

Devs decided that godmode buttons are bad, they decided to remove Rhino's one first because it was the most evident.

Now Rhino's player are asking to devs to be consistent with themselves and keep doing it or restore the previous status.

 

That's it.

[Lord.Finster]

Reduce damage immunity to 80% damage resist and retaliation damage.

Increase base duration by 50%. Combine it with well of life for max efficiency.

 

Make Blessing revive downed allies and heal the whole Party to max. Does not replenish shields so it can't steal Mags thunder.

It will also allow you to use that skill for max efficiency when you team is getting downed and discourages reckless play.

 

Fixed.

[Bibliothekar]

Other users without god mode:-

[...] she is supposed to be a support warframe while I kill everything she is supposed to stand there watching until I say heal.

I haven't met that attitude yet (or at least I didn't notice, since I can't look into peoples heads) and I really hope, I won't anytime in the future.

More often, it's the other way round. People forget that they can ask me for a healing, go full contact and are dead before I had the chance to monitor their health and use Blessing. Problem with Party Health Tab only showing up while you hold Z and blocking you from doing anything else.

[Davoodoo]

Trinity users complaining that they have no offensive abilities. Ok there could be a life leech skill on 1st button. No direct heals ok it can be there. Even ress would be fine. But 100% immunity is bad m'kay.

 

Be creative about how you want to see trinity instead of saying that "without link trinity will be useless cause other skills are not what i want".

 

+1 for everyone who at least tried to introduce new ideas.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

I like the idea of a shared cooldown across all of Trinity's abilities, because link is totally broken.

 

I should not be able to solo every boss in the game with two buttons.

For the most part you can solo every boss in the game with one button. The M1 button. The AI and boss design in this game is, for the most part, very obviously still in beta territory.

[Azamagon]

Qutoing from my huge thread (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46685-azamagons-warframe-ability-balancing/?p=473716)

 

"--- TRINITY ---
This warframe needs quite a lot of work. In some cases Trinity sucks (groups of enemies), and in some she is overpowered (Boss fights). That's too narrow and too strong/weak at the same time. So these abilities will have quite a lot of changes to them. Trinity will still be good during bossfights (just not so insanely) but will now also be better in fighting groups of enemies. Brace yourselves for big changes!

 

- Drain Wave - (New name to fit better)
Frankly, the current Well of Life really sucks. It's way too weak for its single target use. So this ability has a major buff:
When activated, Trinity shoots out a cone of energy in the targetted direction which causes all hit targets to be Drainable and staggered. Being Drainable is the exact same thing as being under the effect of the old Well of Life, but with a slight buff: You get healed health when you damage a Drainable target's health (If it also took from shields, i think it would be too strong, no?), but if your health is full, your shield will be repaired instead (To make it more useful). A target can also be re-Drainable whenever Trinity casts a new Drain Wave on a target. I think that is all it needs.
Focus - Increased maximum health/shield drainable per target and how much is drained per damage done (New!)
Reach - Increased cone size and range (New!)
Continuity - Increased debuff duration (New!)

 

- Barrier - (Complete replacer of Energy Vampire)
Face it, Energy Vampire has waaaay too much overpower-potential and can make bosses far too easy, in particular in conjunction with Link. It simply needs to go.
So, Barrier is its replacement. When Barrier is cast, energy expands/explodes out from Trinity. If an ally gets hit by this sphere, the ally will have the Barrier effect on them (Trinity being in the centre of the cast will always get this effect herself). This Barrier gives you a timelimitted second shield which has two effects:

1) It makes you immune to all negative effects such as disruption, knockbacks etc

2) It gives you a set amount of second layer shields that can only absorb a set amount of damage (Works just like the regular shield, but takes first priority in being damaged). If the Barrier is destroyed by damage or runs out of time, the negative-effect-immunity is also removed. Simply think of it as an invulnerability-effect that can only absorb a set amount of damage and/or in a set amount of time.
Focus - Increased barrier shielding-amount (New!)
Reach - Increased cast radius (New!)
Continuity - Increased barrier duration (New!)
Note: I'm not 100% happy with this skill, and I'm thinking of something new to replace it, but i think it's ok for now i guess...

 

- Link -
Link is ALSO way too strong for Trinity. Trinity should be a healer/supporter, even a possible reserve tank, but not an invulnerability-tank. With the above Barrier and Drain Wave abilities Trinity can still tank, just not so effortlessly. Also, Trinity has no real way other than Link to help damage enemy targets. So, this ability is changed from being a single target damage/tank ability, into a multitarget damage-assister (which will still be useful on bosses btw, just not as overpowered). The tanking part of Link is gone (and sort of moved to the above Barrier ability)
When link is cast, the target unit and a maximum amount of nearby enemies are under link status (Max 5 enemies total). This link has 2 effects on them:
1) Whenever a linked target DEALS damage, it suffers 50% of its dealt damage back onto itself (Will be referred to as Reflect-damage)
2) Whenever a linked target RECEIVES damage, a small amount of that damage is also dealt to the other linked targets, (like max 15% dealt to each target) (Will be referred to as share-damage). If a linked target suffers reflect-damage when it shoots a Tenno, this damage will also become share-damage to the other link targets(!).
Link can thus make enemies kill themselves quite fast, but it also allows YOU to kill them faster yourself.
Notes:
* When you deal damage to a linked target, the share-damage the other target(s) get, counts as YOUR damage done to them. That means, if they are also under effect of Drain Wave, you will get healed by the share-damage done! (This makes Drain Wave + Link, pretty much into a minor AoE-heal!)
* The reflect-damage a target suffers is not based on what actual damage they DO, but on what damage they SHOULD be doing to you, calculated as if you had no armor/resistance on you. So, if you have damage resistances/high armor or even an invulnerability effect, or anything that reduces your damage taken, that does NOT reduce the reflect-damage the target suffers (This is to avoid dissynergy with tanking skills/mods ^^).
* Energy cost could maybe be reduced to 50 energy only?
Focus - Increases reflect-damage (But not share-damage) (New!)
Reach - Increased linking range/area of effect (New!)
Continuity - Increased link duration (New!)

 

- Blessing -
Make it cast a bit faster, and make it revive downed targets (Maybe not DEAD targets, but those who have been incapacitated and awaiting friend-revival). On top of healing shields and health to full, also make it give a slight boost to total maximum shields and health for a short duration (When the timer for this boost is over, any shield/health above your normal maximum is quickly drained). Tops 25% of a boost or something?
I dunno if the invulnerability should stay, but if it does, it should be very short in duration and it should maybe have a limitted range on THIS effect (The healing and max-booster should have unlimited range though)
Focus - Increased max health/shield boost amount (New!)
Reach - Increased invulnerability range (?) (New!)
Continuity - Increased max health/shield duration (New!)"

 

TL;DR

Drain Wave = Well of Life in a cone (more targets hit) which replenishes health first and then shields if health is full - AoE offensive heal

Barrier = AoE effect which causes all friends to get a second shield, which absorbs a set amount of damage and gives you immunity to negative effects as long as it lasts/is not destroyed - AoE defensive heal with pseudo-invulnerability

Link = No more invulnerability, but has a "Dota2"-style linking effect on multiple targets (they share some received damage), as well as the reflect-damage it has currently (but if they attack ANY target, not just Trinity!) - Damage support

Blessing = Shorter invulnerability, revives incapacitated (but not dead) targets, also boosts max health and shields on top of the full healing. - AoE defensive heal

 

Not perfect perhaps, but i like the Drain Wave (revamped Well of Life) and suggested Link better than the current ones at least.

[Bibliothekar]

Qutoing from my huge thread [...]

I actually heard him saying that in my head, after I finished reading your post.

[Second_Measure]

She needs to be more viable in fights with high numbers of easily(?) dispatchable enemies, since the first two abilities rely on the enemy to survive a few hits of a sword and a couple dozens of bullets, which only high level Ancients/Grinner Heavy Gunner are fitting in right now.

[Amistyrja]

Just keep her as she is? Any frame can solo bosses with a few buttons anyway. But I don't get the leeching skills, I'd prefer just straight up heals.

Also I don't get all the hype with Link, I use Well of Life more often and that's saying something. But looking at what DE's been up to lately I won't be surprised if DE suddenly decides that Trinity is too OP compared to other frames and nerfs her Energy Vampire to only recover max 50 energy or only leech energy for teammates and make Link only work on allies.

[TheaMatticks]

 

 

Blessing: Guess what?  Blessing is also a suicide button if it is pressed while being attacked.  Trin is down before the skill can even finish healing when shields are down.  Ember is in the same boat.

 

 

uhhhh no?  She's invincible during the cast, unless they changed this recently.

[Amistyrja]

They seem to have removed the invulnerability...

[gmkgoat]

Well of Life just needs to be castable on allies. Removes the enemy hp situation from the equation entirely. The Link problem is always going to exist as long as Trinity has an invulnerability shield that she can maintain with EV. Reduce the damage reduction and it becomes more like a neat trick than a functional godmode.

[Amistyrja]

idk why people seem so mad that Trinity can defeat bosses easily with Link + Energy Vampire. Anyone can solo a boss easily with any frame with the right gear and half a brain. Warframes excel at different missions anyway and Trinity seems to be great for carrying your newbie friends on Assassination missions.

[PositronicSpleen]

Nothing should happen to Trinity until her skills get an overhaul.

 

The developers knew that, being unable to effectively track allies shields/health/risk status, the skills would just open an option up to other players based on their discretion, rather than that of the Trinity. Unless we get an interface update in that regard (and one for status timers, that'd be great), I think they would have to follow that theme.

 

I'd argue that the idea of a healer can do far more interesting things than currently. I also believe there should be a way to make it interesting, even when nobody really needs health all that much. For example, instead of Well of Life targeting a single enemy -- making it only really work on heavier enemies -- it could instead give allies weapons some kind of life steal damage buff. And going the other way, energy vampire could give energy based on some percentage of allies' shields being damaged, so players get energy when they need to use it, or can deliberately take risks for a big payoff. Link could be replaced with a skill that grants health and shield regeneration, for synergy with this proposed Energy Vampire, but also so it can act not only as healing, but as defense. Blessing is pretty good, but not everyone might need healing at once, and it's still hard to know when to use it; if it automatically revived players, that would be a good thing, I'm not sure what else one can do with it unless it gets completely replaced.

[TunaMayo]

I'm not for a "nerf". I'm on the rework side. She is meant to be a healing/support frame yet is the most viable tank in the game, even when Rhino was in his prime. At present a "nerf" to Link would render her completely useless and if that is all DE do their will be uproar. She needs new/heavily altered powers to enhance the idea of her being a support frame, not a tank.

[Qb3rt]

Nerfing Link would be stupid, Trinity has little else and no damage to offer.

 

The only Link change I could see making sense would be to have the linked target restore shields on hit rather than deflecting damage to it. Keeps the Boss-tank capability without making her invincible, keeps general survivability, and keeps the theme of the 'frame in tact.