I Died In Five Minutes On Mars-- Why Warframe's Difficulty Is Absurdly Anti-Fun

[Onisa]

First, no, English is not my first language. Is that a problem? Because this is a global game with people playing all over the world.

Always assuming that everyone who talks to you on this Forum is English-speaking is pretty @(*()$ insulting to people speaking other languages. Or should I say ' the assumption is insinuating in itself'. And to be honest, I am pretty sure I speak English pretty good. I may not be very good at Vocabs like you, since English is not my mother-tongue, but atleast I don't write broken sentences without punctuations, like many do.

 

And it seems you did not understand the fact that all the videos I posted were not showing all 'tactics' but was showing the way to kill. I could have have very well double-tapped 4 , knocked over the ancients and escaped(though escaping in the Simulacrum doesn't make sense).

 

And DPS= Damage per SECOND. My Absorb relied on total damage accumulated. If I didn't use damage from my Absorb, be my guest and tell me a way to kill the enemies without using Damage/DPS.

 

Oh,btw, I am an adult. Who doesn't confuse every damage source with DPS.

 

I wasn't talking about your Loki build. I was trying to convey the message that your result screenshot doesn't prove that you fought with a loki without any good mod, like my videos. It is my fault for not being clear. Sorry about that.

But, Your Screenshot still doesn't prove that you used that build to take on G3. But I will give the benefit of doubt and believe you, because when I see your build and the weapons you had, I feel it won't be too hard to take on G3. Because a well modded Despair can very well tear through any Grineer unit.

Especially, seeing that I can take on a group of ancients with Venom aura without any mod, Loki wouldn't break a sweat with his Invisibility.

 

'One does not have to fall victim to something to realize it's a problem.'

Sometimes, one does need to fall victim to similar circumstances to realize a problem.

 

You do realize that proc damage does depend on level of enemy?

And yes, I was there during Eviscerator fiasco. I have been here from U9.

But what you are not realizing is that Eviscerator were too powerful as a normal mob. Here,OP is talking about Assassins. Enemies,who are supposed to be as powerful as a boss or at least a mini-boss. By that standard, I have to say that Syndicate Assassins are pretty easy.

 

First, yellow aura is from Caustic Eximi. Venomous Eximi aura is dark green. And unlike the other 'experienced' player, you can believe me on this one.

Second, Warframe has many 'experienced' player. That is exactly why new players should face the enemies themselves, instead of hearing from the 'Experienced' players. That is exactly how I learned the whole game. And that is why I am more of an experienced player ,rather than an 'experienced' player. Not that I know every small thing about Warframe, but I certainly don't give my opinions about things I don't know.

So things are literally being lost in translation. Good to know. I wasn't sure if that was the case or you were simply being an obstinate troll.

Your English is pretty good, and if I hadn't been helping someone who doesn't speak English as a first language recently I would have missed it.

 

I was replying to your posts, not your videos.

 

Yes, DPS is damage per second, and I was referring to the kind that comes from a primary or secondary weapon, not what you are absorbing in the holodeck. All of the tactics you posted all those replies ago can be trumped by simply shooting it in the face

 

Neither do I, but I'm just going to attribute any more missed points to a language barrier.

 

Fair enough, I do admit to Despair and Invisibility doing all the work.

 

True, but there is no mention of when. Some of the random difficulty has been in this game for over a year. When Ceres got it's overhaul, I skimmed an environmental hazard that gave me a toxic proc that dealt close to 300 damage per tic. I don't know if it was ever fixed because on the rare occasion I run into it again I stay very far away.

 

Eviserators without their procs are not a challenge, at least not to me. Part of the complaint was toxic procs, that behave in a very similar manner to slash procs. Unless they've changed it since Manics were introduced, that means the damage per tic is randomly generated when you are proc'd. That is the issue, ridiculously large proc damage for no reason other than RNG.

 

 

I'm going to claim monitor differences. The ring in the screen cap posted earlier is a yellow-green color for me. Chartreuse, even.

[NN13]

So things are literally being lost in translation. Good to know. I wasn't sure if that was the case or you were simply being an obstinate troll.

Your English is pretty good, and if I hadn't been helping someone who doesn't speak English as a first language recently I would have missed it.

By translation, if you are referring to Google Translate, I am not using it. I merely didn't know the exact meaning of 'insinuate'. I just tried to guess the meaning in context of what was being said, like many of us do and ended up with the wrong meaning. But thanks to you, I did learn a new word.

 

I was replying to your posts, not your videos.

 

Yes, DPS is damage per second, and I was referring to the kind that comes from a primary or secondary weapon, not what you are absorbing in the holodeck. All of the tactics you posted all those replies ago can be trumped by simply shooting it in the face

 

True enough, but all those tactics I was talking about was for OP in this particular situation. Because he didn't have any good gun, thats where the tactics come in. A versatile player should not always rely on this powerful weapons. He/She should also learn to survive when he doesn't have powerful weapons at his/her disposal.

That was the essence on my post.

 

Otherwise, the 'More DPS' come into play at Higher level of gameplay. And if you read all my posts here, you will see that I agreed that the Enemy mechanism is not at all perfect in Warframe, in multiple post. In fact, just read my last post and you will understand what I am trying to say.

 

But OP's situation did not indicate to that problem at all.

 

True, but there is no mention of when. Some of the random difficulty has been in this game for over a year. When Ceres got it's overhaul, I skimmed an environmental hazard that gave me a toxic proc that dealt close to 300 damage per tic. I don't know if it was ever fixed because on the rare occasion I run into it again I stay very far away.

I know....The infamous Toxic Waste of Shipyard tileset. It has been nerfed a bit.

And now I hope you realise what I meant by 'Learning'. You learned that you are not supposed to go into those.

 

Eviserators without their procs are not a challenge, at least not to me. Part of the complaint was toxic procs, that behave in a very similar manner to slash procs. Unless they've changed it since Manics were introduced, that means the damage per tic is randomly generated when you are proc'd. That is the issue, ridiculously large proc damage for no reason other than RNG.

I don't know about their procs, but their Mitter do loads of damage and tear through my shields like its paper.

 

About Random procs, I was pretty sure they were not random, but still I just double-checked it in the Simulacrum with my Valkyr and a Level 20 Corrupted Fusion Moa. The Heat Proc dealt a constant 2 damage per tick. Pretty sure other types of proc perform in a similar manner.

 

The only RNG involved in matter of procs is the proc from enemy weapons, like seekers. I have given and explanation about that in my last post and I would request you to read that.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The damage isn't random. It's the chance of a proc happening. And with those eximi, that chance is high. By the way, you didn't lose much, if any, health from the fire ancients because those don't go directly to health, and you had shields. Venomous eximi do go directly to health, so they simply ignored your shields. RNG dictated you got procced more that time, simply because of luck and not any tactical choices on your part. The mods were irrelevant because they didn't affect any of that.

[NN13]

The damage isn't random. It's the chance of a proc happening. And with those eximi, that chance is high.

The chance of proc is not random as well for ancient eximi aura. It is 100% chance if you stay long enough.

 

 RNG dictated you got procced more that time, simply because of luck and not any tactical choices on your part. The mods were irrelevant because they didn't affect any of that.

The only thing RNG dictated is that this time, 3 Venomous Eximi spawned.

The second proc you saw in the video was from another Eximi and not from the one that procc'ed the first time.

Venomous Eximi has a cooldown period. A single Venomous Eximi doesn't proc Toxin repeatedly, before the first proc expires.

 

Ask anyone here.

 

Oh, and now that I did kill all those ancients without any mods, mods became irrelevant. But they sure seemed relevant when I used Fleeting Expertise and Primed Flow, right?

Edited June 23, 2015 by NN13

[(PSN)Lun-Sei]

Are you kidding??

 

Enter a random group - watch as you end up with superleveledup players that do all the work while you simply follow them around.

 

This game is too easy when played in a group, and you say it's too difficult???

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The chance of proc is not random as well for ancient eximi aura. It is 100% chance if you stay long enough.

 

The only thing RNG dictated is that this time, 3 Venomous Eximi spawned.

The second proc you saw in the video was from another Eximi and not from the one that procc'ed the first time.

Venomous Eximi has a cooldown period. A single Venomous Eximi doesn't proc Toxin repeatedly, before the first proc expires.

 

Ask anyone here.

 

Oh, and now that I did kill all those ancients without any mods, mods became irrelevant. But they sure seemed relevant when I used Fleeting Expertise and Primed Flow, right?

The mods were irrelevant to your claim that RNG had nothing to do with their damage, because it does make a big impact. But go ahead and spawn a single venomous eximi in your Similacrum, and see if it can proc multiple times, because it can. Then realize that even if it couldn't, the fact that three spawned and randomly cause their proc already proves my point about RNG.

Are you kidding??

 

Enter a random group - watch as you end up with superleveledup players that do all the work while you simply follow them around.

 

This game is too easy when played in a group, and you say it's too difficult???

It's not that simple. It's mind-numbingly easy and not fun when you cheese, and infuriating and not fun when you don't.

[Liminal]

I am the one who is always talking about OP's scenario here. I don't care if you are talking about OP or not. And if I am contradicting things you disagree on by using OP's example, then I would continue using OP's example.

 

Procs are random. It's a % chance per second (or tick or whatever the game uses) to get a status on you. Continuous aura damage isn't the same as a proc.

 

After having 3000+ post in the Forums, you do realise that Some/Boltor Prime has become a metaphor for powerful weapons?

That is why I used those as examples.

And you clearly said said in your previous post that 'You can't melee Stalker now a days' implying that you don't melee him. I just refuted your point by saying that I do melee him, given I have a good enough melee weapon and not a Rank 6 Kama.

So I need to realise you mean "any non-useless gun" and yet you take my "can't melee" literally.

Of course you can, but it's not optimal. Furthermore, I was refering to meleeing him with low level gear. That's why I mentioned a r6 kama.

This all comes back to my stance on assassins and low rank gear.

 

Then to each his own. IMO, assassins should kill you if you do one mistake. At most 2 or 3 maybe, if I were to be lenient. If you read all my post in this thread, you will see that in one post, I said that ancients hooks should not have 100% or near 100% accuracy.

(...)

Also, assassins are supposed to hunt you when you are at your weakest, not when you have Hek and Brakk(another metaphor). That is exactly the idea of assassins.

As for normal mobs, they are low enough when you choose to drop in a mission with low level with unranked stuff. Again, in relation to OP, OP was not having problems before Assassins decided to spawn.

No. No game should randomly drop an unbeatable enemy on you just because you used an option offered to you.

You drop into Pluto with unranked stuff? You die. That's fair because you know which enemies spawn there.

You drop in Mercury or Venus with unranked stuff? No assassin should ever spawn. Why? Because they are random events that shouldn't dictate an otherwise perfectly valid approach (ie: doing the same thing you do when you are new to the game). Just because you have played 9000 hours you shouldn't be denied the safety of dropping into low level content like a new player.

 

All games need to be fair.

A player that couldn't do anything to change his fate feels cheated.

A player that feels cheated starts to dislike the game.

 

And you are not supposed to go to Ceres with unranked gear under normal circumstances. You should only go to ceres if you are good enough to survive.(Not implying that you are bad). I,for one, go to Sechura to level up my stuff.

I never mentioned going to Ceres with unranked stuff. You're mixing up different points: assassins and procs. Random procs are a problem at all levels of gameplay.

 

And you are not supposed to simplify 'screw ups'. Not moving/ not taking cover is one of the biggest screw up in Warframe. Most people die because they try to face-tank everything, just like OP did.

I agree. But you misenderstand what I meant by "simplifying". I'm saying that staying put can get you killed, but I'm not counting it as one single screw up for the sake of the example.

Sure, if you stay put you deserve getting curbstomped. But staying still for a second and getting chain-CC'd into oblivion is a bit overboard. The severity of the punishment should be commensurate to the seriousness of the screw up.

Getting hit once by the Stalker (for example) shouldn't be a death sentence, yet if he procs slash you're done for. That's a perfect example of RNG making a punishment infinitely more severe than it should be. The guy next to you may get hit and live for no reason but better luck.

 

It does spawn low level enemies when you go to low level planet. But you can not hope that the game will send you level 5 assassins group.

It might not be level 50, but it will certainly be level 35. And that is fair IMO.

 

Think of it from the enemies perspective. Why would the Grineer reduce there soldiers' rank in Ceres? Because you have unranked weapons? Doesn't make sense, right?

We don't need the enemy's perspective because the game is asymmetric PvE. Fun is more important than sense in a game and an enemy you cannot fight isn't fun.

The game does this half-heartedly by not letting the Stalker visit you if you only have equipment under rank5, but it's a very poor "fix".

 

Again you're mixing up the Ceres thing with the surprise party assassins.

 

Then, the mess in enemy mechanism starts, which I am not denying at all. Due to broken armor/health/damage scaling at high levels, enemies start dealing more damage than us, which should not be the case.

Definitely agree there. Broken scaling is the bane of the game.

 

Where exactly is the RNG in Toxin Proc?

You are screaming 'RNG,RNG' but Toxin procs almost immediately once you enter the range of Venom Ancient Aura. I fail to see the action of RNG in proc'ing Toxin ticks.

I'll admit I'm not sure if the eximus is random or a 100% guaranteed proc. But the RNG "screaming" (I'd recommend not using that term in a civilized discussion) goes for all toxin and slash dealing enemies. It's randomly induced punishment often disproportionate to the rest of the difficulty in the game.

 

You can say RNG for Seeker procs, but then again, our guns use RNG for procs as well.

If I can proc slash with my Kraken, why can't the enemy?

Because the game is asymmetric PvE?

Game should be Asymmetric in the sense that Enemies do not do equal or more damage than us. It should not be asymmetric by giving us a mechanism and removing it entirely from enemies using the same gear. That is unfair towards enemies and unbalanced.

First of all, there's not fairness towards enemies. They have no feelings. They are an object that only exists to make the experience fun for the player.

Second, asymmetric means their difficulty doesn't subject itself to our standards. They can use completely different mechanics if need be.

So yes, our procs can use an RNG, but theirs shouldn't, not if the game is meant to be fair (refer to the previous statement about fairness, feeling cheated and fun).

 

And no, I don't mean dropping in Pluto with r0 items. I mean having proper enemy mechanics: no random procs, more telegraphed attacks, minimize hitscan as much as possible, make dodge and blocking more effective, allow counterattacks like shooting while being dragged ... that sort of thing. Skill-based counters.

 

That is what Warframe was with Damage 1.0.

 

I still remember Warframe before Damage 2.0 was introduced. Enemies were pathetic. They were nothing, whereas we were Gods. No, I don't want that again.

I agree, WF needs proper difficulty and most of the game is easy once you have decent gear. But randomness isn't real difficulty. Neither is just adding higher numbers for armor, damage and health.

 

WF right now arbitrarily decides to remove player agency. Sometimes things will happen because you failed to avoid them and sometimes they will happen because someone rolled a die and you got unlucky. Luck should have nothing to do with it.You should never throw something at a player that is beyond their control. The player's success and their downfall should be in their hands and their hands alone.

[NN13]

The mods were irrelevant to your claim that RNG had nothing to do with their damage, because it does make a big impact. But go ahead and spawn a single venomous eximi in your Similacrum, and see if it can proc multiple times, because it can. Then realize that even if it couldn't, the fact that three spawned and randomly cause their proc already proves my point about RNG.

It's not that simple. It's mind-numbingly easy and not fun when you cheese, and infuriating and not fun when you don't.

This is one thing which I can't prove for sure. I successfully spawned a single Venom Ancient after like 15 attempts(No idea why RNG loves Prasitic ones) and it didn't proc repeatedly.

 

But that does not prove for sure because you can always say that I was lucky.

 

Now, even if it could proc repeatedly, what was stopping you from going into absorb? Why did you even try to face-tank the procs in the first place,even if you thought only one Venomous Ancient spawned?

 

You did a series of mistakes in your case and died.

 

1. First mistake - Staying in a closed room when you realized Death Squads are about to spawn.

2. Second mistake - Trying to tank the procs and melee with a Nyx.

3. Third Mistake - Not trying to force your way through the door, by knocking them down.

4. Fourth Mistake - Not carrying a Health Restore for emergency, especially since you were playing Solo. And before you say this is a bandaid, no it is not. You are given the option to use it in situations such as yours.

 

No,seriously, even if I agree that they were proccing repeatedly, you probably were not taking more than 50-60 damage per tick. If you had Vitality, like you said, you needed atleast 12-13 ticks to die for the first time. That is more than enough time to knock them down, go somewhere safe and cast Absorb to stop the damage from remaining ticks.

 

But, no, you thought its a good idea to tank the procs and melee them. Well, guess what. it wasn't. So, all I can say is that next time don't do it.

[srlhama]

Is that hard to ppl undo he is MR3???

I gonna supose his Vitality is not bigger than lvl 6, he dosen't have Fleeting Expertise and Flow, ppl are not getting that he isn't prepared to fight that situation, probably no restores too, and we all know how Drakgoon sucks against everything...

The tutorial on this game give more doubts than answers to new players, and he would need to wait a lot to get a squad to that mission on mars, everyone is forgeting how hard corpus planets are hard when you start the game, because you don't have stormbringer/ infected clip or good impact weapons or enough energy/efficiency to use or weak powers without strenght mods...

I think you did nothing wrong OP cause I almost rage quit Warframe when I get on Mars/Jupiter, and S#&$ happens on this game a lot: like Voor droping your first Intensify and Leec Krill get bugged inside the wall and you had to abandon the match...

If you were on pc I would help you but we still don't have plataform crossover with console peasants...

Don't give up Tenno better days are comming.

[Sloan441]

His failure (on several levels) gives him something to strive to fix.

 

Not everything is going to be easy or a walkover as soon as you arrive on a new planet. Rude awakening maybe, but now you have a goal!

 

It's a good thing in the greater scheme.

[CrimsonNightSky]

His failure (on several levels) gives him something to strive to fix.

 

Not everything is going to be easy or a walkover as soon as you arrive on a new planet. Rude awakening maybe, but now you have a goal!

 

It's a good thing in the greater scheme.

It's a disproportionate surprise and it's unnecessary. Eximus squads themselves may or may not have a valid purpose for gameplay purposes. But dumping a group of lvl 30+ enemies with stacking buffs into a lvl 10 zone seems bizarre. New Loka Ancients can even take +9 reloads from a potato'd R30 Vaykor if the auras just happen to go that way (for a lvl ~15 zone).

The best thing about them is that they go away after they've killed you, so at least you dont get stuck (unless you've burned your revives). Still, it's not a fun interaction to just RNG your way into a group whose solutions are basically "always bring a full ranked potato'd gun" and "just die/quit the level." There isn't any other real interaction choices with them aside from hoping their pathing bugs and you have enough ammo restores.

It's not good for loadout variety and can easily create frustrating situations at the whim of RNG.

[Grom-84]

Anyway: being able to survive isn't the point, the point is fairness and proportionate punishment. Being punished for doing nothing wrong isn't cool, that's like this game that sucked hard called Warface... enemies could headshot you with hitscan fire in pve. It was bad design in a nutshell.

 

Haha i played warface for pretty long time) And i remember those spec ops soldiers who could just spawn with slight delay and kill whole team in a seconds from the roof) 

[Guest]

when i level new frames/gear i usually just mooch off of a full team on apollodorus, mercury (survival)

[p3z1]

Nerf Detron Crewmen

[5h1n0k4m1]

Seeker hits a slash proc on the only shot it lands

Seekers shot with a burst weapon! The Kraken :)

[jinxeverything]

1.NN13 is a good teacher so pay attention to him/ her!

2.bringing a support frame to a mission, like a survival, isn't really smart unless you built that frame with the idea of using his/ her abilities non-stop, after all a support is meant to support not lead the attack!

3.Hit-man or Hit-squad can show up randomly, if you cant handle them, run, if you can handle them, fight!

4.When you want to level anything be it weapon or frame, make sure to have 3 of them (for examlpe : warframe maxed + primary maxed + melee maxed + secondary unmaxed) so all the XP go to that weapon or frame! 

5.Each frame has it's own ability(ies) that can be used in a unique way(s) (offence, defense or support), so take your time to learn how to use them and when, after all some abilities are situational and others are spammable.

6.DE is trying to please veteran and new players alike so expect this spike difficulty issue to stay for a bit longer, improve to dance around this issue!

[RIOT]

wait... where did OP find detron crewman on mars...

last time I checked mars was a grineer planet

[Marthrym]

Detron crewmen are broken, just like Seekers. Their damage scaling is bonkers. So yeah, that is already one first big issue.

 

The auras are BS, especially toxic ones. they're so cheap, you just have to be in the vicinity to get a 8 ticks proc. So much for fairplay and challenge. Add the other auras to that and, well, you get the idea.

 

Life Strike is now THE mandatory mod you HAVE to put on every melee weapon you use because there is just so much cheap BS shield bypassing damage in WarGUNS. It's ridiculous. Everyone stacks health and energy to maximize survivability with Life strike, because it's the only viable option past a certain point. The devs go on and on about "freedom of customization", but update after update the meta is always the same : more cheap and dirty tricks for the AI, less and less options for the players. When will this stupidely broken scaling get a look at? When will WE get some form of scaling to make frames with damage based kits relevant at higher levels?

Edited June 24, 2015 by Marthrym

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Seekers shot with a burst weapon! The Kraken :)

Which is more of why the damage a single shot does is ridiculous. You'd think that damage would be on Latchers, the things that are actually avoidable based on player input, but at level 60 those do about as much damage as a Level 10 Kraken.

[Onisa]

By translation, if you are referring to Google Translate, I am not using it. I merely didn't know the exact meaning of 'insinuate'. I just tried to guess the meaning in context of what was being said, like many of us do and ended up with the wrong meaning. But thanks to you, I did learn a new word.

 

True enough, but all those tactics I was talking about was for OP in this particular situation. Because he didn't have any good gun, thats where the tactics come in. A versatile player should not always rely on this powerful weapons. He/She should also learn to survive when he doesn't have powerful weapons at his/her disposal.

That was the essence on my post.

 

Otherwise, the 'More DPS' come into play at Higher level of gameplay. And if you read all my posts here, you will see that I agreed that the Enemy mechanism is not at all perfect in Warframe, in multiple post. In fact, just read my last post and you will understand what I am trying to say.

 

But OP's situation did not indicate to that problem at all.

 

I know....The infamous Toxic Waste of Shipyard tileset. It has been nerfed a bit.

And now I hope you realise what I meant by 'Learning'. You learned that you are not supposed to go into those.

 

I don't know about their procs, but their Mitter do loads of damage and tear through my shields like its paper.

 

About Random procs, I was pretty sure they were not random, but still I just double-checked it in the Simulacrum with my Valkyr and a Level 20 Corrupted Fusion Moa. The Heat Proc dealt a constant 2 damage per tick. Pretty sure other types of proc perform in a similar manner.

 

The only RNG involved in matter of procs is the proc from enemy weapons, like seekers. I have given and explanation about that in my last post and I would request you to read that.

The phrase 'lost in translation' refers to when something's meaning is lost when it crosses from one language to another (or one regional dialect to another, even). It may say the same thing, but it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing.

 

My point was that so long as DE continues to add things that make those powerful weapons mandatory those of us who don't use such crutches will continue to be punished. While I know they try to make the game better overall, every measure they've added to counter something in the past six months or so has had the opposite effect on my game play. (Nulifiers have added more spam to my diet, for example.)

 

Well, I had walked through two or three similarly sludgy places with nothing happening so it was a bit of a shock, exspecially sinc the original dammage that generated the proc only dealt 30 or so damage. If by 'Learning' you mean 'never go back to Ceres unless absolutely necessary' I suppose I did learn.

Because with the exception of farming Frost parts for Chroma and three or four syndicate alerts I haven't set foot in a randomly generating Shipyard map since. A resounding success if DE didn't want me to play Ceres, I suppose.

 

Fire/heat procs do not behave in the same way as slash and toxic procs, they deal a set amount of damage per tic as you saw. As of Manic's release slash and toxin procs dealt a random amount of damage that bypasses shields and armor. This might have been changed, but considering DE 'fixed' it last time by removing the biggest offenders I highly doubt it.

 

The part that starts with 'Where exactly is the RNG in Toxin Proc?'? I did. I even popped int the Simulacrum to see if things had changed. The results were inconclusive but I did find out toxic procs from a toxic crawler seem to behave differently than those from a Venomous Eximi, and if you parry said Eximi it's AI will break and it will go into idle mode ignoring you for the rest of it's existence.