Parkour 2.0 Issue: "gotta Go Fast" Hurts The Game

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I'm a bit late to the party to discuss things in the June 19th community hot topics, but Parkour 2.0 is a heavy discussion point right now, so here I am.

 

First of all, I love Parkour 2.0, especially the fact that mobility will now be non-melee based. That's a fantastic change that makes a ton of sense, but based on the community's views, it seems that a person starving to death will take a single cookie over ten pounds of vegetables. Those people will all hopefully die of starvation. What this community wants is almost never what's good for them.

 

I am willing to bet that every single person who thinks "we need higher parkour speed" either:

1. Does not main Zephyr or has never even played as Zephyr

2. Has never played a Cephalon Capture match in their entire Warframe career

 

Based on the latest community hot topics, some people think coptering isn't ridiculous enough. If you actually do main Zephyr/play as Zephyr or have ever played a Cephalon Capture match, you know how much increasing parkour speed will hurt the game.

 

Let's start off with Zephyr. Why would you ever use mobility skills like Tail Wind if parkour is a faster alternative that doesn't consume energy? This applies to all mobility skills, but Tail Wind will suffer the worst if parkour speed is increased. Directional air melee was the reason Super Jump died. Honestly, I would probably stop playing this game if all of Zephyr's mobility was systematically made obsolete and then removed. This problem could be circumvented somewhat by buffing mobility skills (How about an archwing-style flight mode for Tail Wind?) but if DE ever actually listens to the community and makes any of the changes that Zephyr desperately needs, it will probably be because [DE]Steve was waterboarded to do so. I imagine that actually sounds tempting to a lot of people who main Zephyr...

 

PvP, especially Cephalon Capture, will also massively suffer if speed is increased any further. Because of directional air melee, it's possible to reach the other team's spawnpoint in literally a matter of seconds. Every single player constantly flies around at a million miles an hour until all sense of meaning or serious competition is lost. Map sizes could be increased, but then you would end up with these tiny ants flying around in a gigantic map that's proportional to their movement speed, but not their physical size.

 

So I ask you this: do we truly gotta go fast? What effect would having even more ridiculous speed have on mobility frames like Zephyr? Are the adverse effects worth turning our movement speed into something even more insane?

 

I’d support waterboarding [DE]Steve for Tail Wind to be an archwing-style flight mode. Hopefully the NSA didn’t hear that...

Edited July 1, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[tocorro]

Cephalon capture aside, this is PvE mostly. Not PvP.

Do U mind having high speed and mobility against Grineer hit-scan weapons ? I don't.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Cephalon capture aside, this is PvE mostly. Not PvP.

 

So PvP doesn't exist and shouldn't be balanced for. Why not just remove it from the game then?

 

Do U mind having high speed and mobility against Grineer hit-scan weapons ? I don't.

 

Aimbotting Grineer are the problem here, not low mobility. Grineer accuracy needs to be fixed as well, but that's a completely separate issue.

[tocorro]

So PvP doesn't exist and shouldn't be balanced for. Why not just remove it from the game then?

 

 

As I remember PvP was supposed to be watched over by separate "team" and balanced separately from the game.

And it was supposed to not influence one another. Why do ppl that play PvE rather than PvP have to suffer becauese of slower moving speed ?

I see no reason why not incorporate parkour 2.0 and leave flip jump, sliding melee and aerial melee as is in PvE, but change the mechanics for PvP only. It is doable by DE. And all of us would be happy. Not only PvP players...

Edited July 1, 2015 by tocorro

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I see no reason why not incorporate parkour 2.0 and leave flip jump, sliding melee and aerial melee as is in PvE, but change the mechanics for PvP only. It is doable by DE. And all of us would be happy. Not only PvP players...

 

This would force the player to master two separate movement systems, one for PvE and one for PvP. As I talk about above, insane movement speed has adverse effects in PvE as well, although significantly less so than PvP.

 

Coptering and air melee are both melee based, which limits weapon choice. Air melee killed Super Jump and is making funny looks at Tail Wind, and air melee, coptering, and flip jumps all massively de-value parkour moves that are already in the game. No reason to wall run across this gap when I can clear it by jumping and pressing melee. This will be the same in Parkour 2.0. No reason to fling off this zip line or bunny hop from wall to wall when I could just jump and press melee.

 

Eventually, I hope PvP will be expanded upon enough to actually be considered a part of the game.

Edited July 1, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[tocorro]

Parkour 2.0 and melee movement system should be adjusted to be comparable in terms of speed in PvE games. This way a guy with a heavy sword (using parkour 2.0) would be just as fast to move as a guy with dual zoren (using melee movement). Mastering two movement systems could be difficult to new players. But let's be honest what isn't difficult for them? And in a long run when they'd be able to use movements from both systems they could even combine them. 

Edited July 1, 2015 by tocorro

[cary2010haha1]

actually the PVP should never get into WF

WF is always a PVE only game until DS cancer infected it .

 

 

 

When in WF you are 24/7 in the middle of kill zone, slow down is a stupid idea, only get slow when you stay in your ship and the relay

[rockscl]

 

 

the feeling of speed is given by the conjugation of details, so going fast is just relative to how much you are dealing with as you move, traveling across the entire map with 1 tipedo copter row is speed, but its meant to avoid the map`s details and draw a direct line that bypasses the whole tile, not bringing anything from the map, but creating an experience of trivialization of content which was almost rooted in warframe, where the most efficient mechanic(included p42w of course) had the objective of avoiding content in order to get to the rewards faster, moving faster by map interaction is a different thing, it is possible and viable in parkour1.0, but it is also trivial since air melee and copter could do the same more easily, anyway, i think that "going fast" is not a problem or harmful thing by itself, the harm comes from trivialization of content by certain movement mechanics imo, luckily DE reacted and began nerfing things everywhere in order to save their own gameplay design, however, once they release parkour2.0 they may be in debt for improving rewards for players that play more actively, the stealth affinity multipliers were a step in that direction, now theres at least one reason to play stealth

Edited July 1, 2015 by rockscl

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

So increase parkour speed and give Zeph an Excalibur-tier rework.

[Gintoki-Zero]

it would be best if we actually get our greasy mits on parkour 2.0 first before we assume anything.

 

*i am sad that i cant SANIC my &#! all over the map anymore though D: *

[(PSN)Killmoves37]

Does your entire argument against faster speeds revolve around 1 power on 1 frame? Because I couldn't care less about Zephyr or her skills. Tail Wind is already useless if you have a staff or polearm, I don't see why parkour should be held back for 1 frame out of 21. 

Also, PvP is not, and never should be, the main focus of balancing in warframe. Let the PvP balance their own things in a separate environment from the rest of the game. If I can play for months without ever knowing that Conclave exists, I shouldn't be subject to balance changes focused around it.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

actually the PVP should never get into WF

WF is always a PVE only game until DS cancer infected it .

 

What an interesting personal opinion.

 

So increase parkour speed and give Zeph an Excalibur-tier rework.

 

And completely destroy PvP.

 

*i am sad that i cant SANIC my ! all over the map anymore though D: *

 

This seems to be the opinion of most community members on Parkour 2.0 right now. However, this attitude is quite destructive to the mobility system. You're taking the cookie over the vegetables, so to speak.

 

Does your entire argument against faster speeds revolve around 1 power on 1 frame? Because I couldn't care less about Zephyr or her skills. Tail Wind is already useless if you have a staff or polearm, I don't see why parkour should be held back for 1 frame out of 21. 

 

"I don't care" isn't an argument. You're not the only human being in the universe, or these forums wouldn't even exist.

 

Excalibur's Slash Dash, Rhino's Charge, Volt's Speed, Loki & Ash's Teleports, and Valkyr's Rip Line are all designed to make you more mobile as well; I just chose to use Tail Wind as an example because it's the best. That's over 30% of the total warframe roster being hurt by directional air melee.

 

Directional air melee is slaughtering mobility powers one by one. Rip Line is the only mobility skill from above that I would say is completely useless, because directional air melee is straight up faster, and directional air melee already killed Super Jump as previously stated.

 

Also, PvP is not, and never should be, the main focus of balancing in warframe. Let the PvP balance their own things in a separate environment from the rest of the game. If I can play for months without ever knowing that Conclave exists, I shouldn't be subject to balance changes focused around it.

 

Taken to its extreme, this would mean having two entirely separate movement systems for PvP and PvE. I think that the main issue with this is that it would distance PvP even further from PvE. If they keep distancing themselves from each other, PvP eventually won't even feel like we're playing Warframe anymore.

 

Then again, doesn't it already feel like an entirely different game? Having two separate movement systems could still work in theory, despite how awkward it would seem.

Edited July 1, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

What an interesting personal opinion.

 

 

And completely destroy PvP.

 

 

This seems to be the opinion of most community members on Parkour 2.0 right now. However, this attitude is quite destructive to the mobility system. You're taking the cookie over the vegetables, so to speak.

PvP isn't good enough to be considered destroyed.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

PvP isn't good enough to be considered destroyed.

 

That shouldn't be the case. If it is the case, PvP needs to be expanded upon, not destroyed by a mobility change.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

That shouldn't be the case. If it is the case, PvP needs to be expanded upon, not destroyed by a mobility change.

People that PvP regularly want high speed movement.  The threw a fit when sling shotting was accidentally removed before. The make a lot of use out of coptering. Making movement faster won't negatively effect them. I would wadger that they would welcome it, and it would make more combat styles (e.g. Melee) viable.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

People that PvP regularly want high speed movement.  The threw a fit when sling shotting was accidentally removed before. The make a lot of use out of coptering. Making movement faster won't negatively effect them. I would wadger that they would welcome it, and it would make more combat styles (e.g. Melee) viable.

 

PvP, especially Cephalon Capture, will also massively suffer if speed is increased any further. Because of directional air melee, it's possible to reach the other team's spawnpoint in literally a matter of seconds. Every single player constantly flies around at a million miles an hour until all sense of meaning or serious competition is lost. Map sizes could be increased, but then you would end up with these tiny ants flying around in a gigantic map that's proportional to their movement speed, but not their physical size.

[StonedMakak]

the feeling of speed is given by the conjugation of details, so going fast is just relative to how much you are dealing with as you move, traveling across the entire map with 1 tipedo copter row is speed, but its meant to avoid the map`s details and draw a direct line that bypasses the whole tile, not bringing anything from the map, but creating an experience of trivialization of content which was almost rooted in warframe, where the most efficient mechanic(included p42w of course) had the objective of avoiding content in order to get to the rewards faster, moving faster by map interaction is a different thing, it is possible and viable in parkour1.0, but it is also trivial since air melee and copter could do the same more easily, anyway, i think that "going fast" is not a problem or harmful thing by itself, the harm comes from trivialization of content by certain movement mechanics imo, luckily DE reacted and began nerfing things everywhere in order to save their own gameplay design, however, once they release parkour2.0 they may be in debt for improving rewards for players that play more actively, the stealth affinity multipliers were a step in that direction, now theres at least one reason to play stealth

 

Pretty much this.

 

Taken to its extreme, this would mean having two entirely separate movement systems for PvP and PvE. I think that the main issue with this is that it would distance PvP even further from PvE. If they keep distancing themselves from each other, PvP eventually won't even feel like we're playing Warframe anymore.

 

Then again, doesn't it already feel like an entirely different game? Having two separate movement systems could still work in theory, despite how awkward it would seem.

 

 

PvP already requires completely different skill-set and mindset than PvE, as in every game that accommodates both modes. It wouldn't be as awkward as you may think. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

 

I am not sure what point you are trying to make by quoting your whining at me. I have already read it, and my point stands.

 

https://youtu.be/Zj_X8V7OGqY

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make by quoting your whining at me. I have already read it, and my point stands.

 

https://youtu.be/Zj_X8V7OGqY

 

If I can reach my enemy's spawn point in literally 3 seconds, I'm not sure how that possibly couldn't be a problem. The insane mobility turns what should be a competitive match into nothing but absolute chaos, because I just respawned, ran to the enemy's side of the map, grabbed their cephalon, and brought it back to our base, all within the course of 10 seconds.

[cary2010haha1]

Destory the PVP if it can, I am enough for the stupid melee range balance due to PVP affecting PVE.

 

 

 

99.99% of player base in WF will be happy if this can get our melee range back

[WingedCrusade]

"I don't care" isn't an argument. You're not the only human being in the universe, or these forums wouldn't even exist.

Excalibur's Slash Dash, Rhino's Charge, Volt's Speed, Loki & Ash's Teleports, and Valkyr's Rip Line are all designed to make you more mobile as well; I just chose to use Tail Wind as an example because it's the best. That's over 30% of the total warframe roster being hurt by directional air melee.

Directional air melee is slaughtering mobility powers one by one. Rip Line is the only mobility skill from above that I would say is completely useless, because directional air melee is straight up faster, and directional air melee already killed Super Jump.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Rip Line's got me places Aerial Melee hasn't. Not to mention just flat out whipping enemies around is still fun~ Edited July 1, 2015 by WingedCrusade

[Feallike]

OP your right, but to get through some peoples heads quoting PVP will change their focus because that is by far the biggest weakness they can exploit. Human nature is to exploit somethings weakness and since most of this games players don't like PVP they will exploit that bit of your post to heck.

Ontopic:

 

Not only will PVP suffer, but PVE will to. Stealth 2.0 can't be created while we go the speed of sound, and even if they changed the enemies to be worth stealthing we would just run past all the enemies.

 

The new turrets that are  coming out are suppose to be suppression to slow us down. That is why their is cover, what is the point of having cover if your going to run past the turret at the speed of sound? Seems like a waste of content to me.

 

What is the point of traps like the arc traps? IF your going to be flying through the air at the speed of sound the DE just wasted content WE ASKED FOR!

 

What is the point of expanding tilesets if we don't even want to play on them? We just want to finish the missions. WE want cool new traps, enemies, and tilsets but we run past them so fast that their is 0 point in having them!

 

Edit: Also what is the point of better AI? If the enemies get smarter it won't change anything if we finish the missions. New AI can't combat a ninja going 50 meters a second. :/ 

 

PVE suffers from loss of content and wasted content, while PVP suffers from boring gameplay. Speed in Warframe seems like the opposite of what this game needs.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Feallike

[.-KG-..-Ragulab-.]

just wait when parkour 2.0 gets released, then we will see how fast it actually is.

 

If it sucks, the flame war in this forum will be more exciting than the one we had when excalibur was nerfed

Edited July 1, 2015 by .-KG-..-Ragulab-.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Hate to burst your bubble, but Rip Line's got me places Aerial Melee hasn't. Not to mention just flat out whipping enemies around is still fun~

 

The distance you can ascend vertically is far higher, but it provides little raw speed. As for whipping enemies, it's too slow to be combat effective. What I'd like to see is much faster movement when using it as a grappling hook, and much faster animations when using it as a harpoon.

[injustible]

So, your main argument is that you can't use your Zephyr effectively anymore. Have you tried using a Jet Stream Augment build?

 

On a side note, Rhino Charge has quite a lot of range that it can cover, but I guess you've never tested Duration builds on it?

 

The game in itself doesn't require a slowdown. Slide slash (a.k.a. "coptering") did need to be removed, yes, as it completely nullified the point of environmental interaction, but making Parkour 2.0 slow would basically ruin the whole purpose of implementing it. 

 

My mates and I have literally come to the conclusion that if we can't use Parkour 2.0 to get places fast, maining Jet Stream from Zephyr and Speed from Volt will be the only things we use. Anywhere.

Edited July 1, 2015 by injustible