Parkour 2.0 Issue: "gotta Go Fast" Hurts The Game

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Currently gunplay in Conclave is impossible because of coptering and the such. I hate to be the one to say it but the pace needs to be toned down few notches. Shooting guns feels slugish in comparison to Kogakes kcking you in the face from all directions.

 

I keep hearing people whining about how they can't shoot well then blaming it on the speed people move in the game.  The actual videos of the PvP always seem to tell a different story.

 

https://youtu.be/HVGQ6E9UpaU

[Feallike]

 

Gosh dang you for not putting your response in your actual post! That slight inconvenience forces me to scroll. ;-; (please take this as a joke)

 

1. I honestly can't find a way to fix that problem without purposefully stopping progression alltogether. The lockout system does this to some extent, though this would have to extend to the point of having to kill a certain enemy to progress. - All you need a speed nullifier or speed bump(trap).  :) On the other hand, anti speed enemies can bea thing in sensitive areas or in senstive groups of enemies that somehow make the player stop to think or deal with them.

 

2. I am using stealth a generalization of content. I mention stealth because that is the most obvious one that would suffer from speed. We also have multipathing which would be penalized because people would always pick the fastest root and so on. I don't mean just stealth I am trying to create a general ideal of what content I am talking about. - Here's the thing. Most people seem to love speed. Dev team wants players to have fun. If you take away speed, you could take away their fun. Read rest below...

 

3. Wouldn't it be easier and less costly to just adapt speed to the content? - Yes, it would be that easy to ignore player wishes and do what they want and take the easy way out, but answer this, do ye always want them to go down this route when the going gets tough especially with a backlash? And besides, if things stay as is, the gae gets boring, there has to be changes for the better. goota add a whole new dimension to the game, something to keep players happy. You can adapt speed to content, but the content is going to change anyway, might as well start with speed. 

 

4. Longer maps maybe add 30 more seconds to the mission. The isn't significant since most maps are the same size. Maybe if they added much longer tilesets it would be more significant. - Meant this

 

5. That's what I was saying. The DE can't make the grind easier because if they did we wouldn't have any content! The speed we take to finish a mission dictates how easy farming can be. If they made farming as easy as people want then we would all be MR 19 in less than a month. Even then we can do this now with Draco. - Well, that is a standstill mission anyway. If they made adjudtments to counter speed, perhaps there maybe no worry here. All points above can rememdy this. It's either they keep things slow and reduce grind or make things fast and keep things as is with counterspeed units/measures. It's all a lot of work.

 

6. I WOULD LOVE THAT!!!! Though we mow down enemies so fast that a survival mission would be way to OP and this would only benefit those farming draco. - Well, it's not for endless missions, anyway. Exclusive to run n gun point A to B to C missions. Endless on the other hand could get a different feature.

 

I think we should give more XP and resource droprate for enemies of higher level.. Though then again that would increase camping. - Considering run n gun missions give crap xp and materials, camping ain't all that bad.

 

 

Thank-you for not making me scroll.

 

1. That's what I want the turret to be. A suppression unit that forces us to stop in our tracks and think of a way to get past him. Hopefully he will do enough damage to destroy any frame that tries to run past him. (he will probably have a built in nully bubble) 

 

2. I agree that speed is fun, though I don't want us to go so fast that it keeps the DE from adding content because they fear it won't be used. (aka multi pathing, stealth mechanics, optional missions)

 

3. I am hoping since the game is in Beta that next level of strategy and depth will come in time. Even then I am not saying make it as slow as we are now, just don't make it as fast as coptering. Make a medium between both. What this game needs is a skill wall between regular and fast. Fastest speed should be something only vets can aquire, and slow speed should be the regular for newbies. Even then their should be something in each tilesets and enemies that force vets to stop and not leave newbies behind. The speed shouldn't be drastic enough like it is now that it leaves people who don't use it behind in the dust, but it shouldn't be as slow as the normal speed.

 

4. OK.

 

5. Ya the DE is at a point where they need to rework the RNG and our ability to do missions. the Grinding in the tactical alert is beyond slow and stupid. I would never ever want that type of RNG in the actual game. If the DE could create a medium then that is what I want. Not to fast, but not to slow. Something that doesn't dictate content, but something that doesn't make us feel like slugs.

 

6. OK. If that was put into non-endless missions that would work out. 

 

7. I don't feel the DE wants camping in their game. I don't personally enjoy camping and have never done it willingly. 

 

I think the current speed of Parkour 2.0 is maybe 30% to slow. It is defiantly faster than current Parkour but it is just slightly to slow to make everyone decently happy. Though we haven't seen just how fast it can go so I hold my judgement.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Feallike

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

I keep hearing people whining about how they can't shoot well then blaming it on the speed people move in the game.  The actual videos of the PvP always seem to tell a different story.

 

https://youtu.be/HVGQ6E9UpaU

Look carefully at this video. I see a couple reasonbly skilled players v NEW players to PVP.

 

Show me vids of pvp pros v these same new players, thats what the complaints are about.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Look carefully at this video. I see a couple reasonbly skilled players v NEW players to PVP.

 

Show me vids of pvp pros v these same new players, thats what the complaints are about.

The "pros" are impressive and still able to get gunplay in even when zooming around at mach speed.

[Jinryusai]

2. I agree that speed is fun, though I don't want us to go so fast that it keeps the DE from adding content because they fear it won't be used. (aka multi pathing, stealth mechanics, optional missions) - Multipaths are normal in speed games, but it has to cater to the flow, the speed, etc. people have to care about things such as stealth to use them. Going slow may not help, but making stealth faster and smooth with nice bonuses would. Stealth must follow the speed flow.

 

3. I am hoping since the game is in Beta that next level of strategy and depth will come in time. Even then I am not saying make it as slow as we are now, just don't make it as fast as coptering. Make a medium between both. What this game needs is a skill wall between regular and fast. Fastest speed should be something only vets can aquire, and slow speed should be the regular for newbies. Even then their should be something in each tilesets and enemies that force vets to stop and not leave newbies behind. The speed shouldn't be drastic enough like it is now that it leaves people who don't use it behind in the dust, but it shouldn't be as slow as the normal speed. 

 

- Well, never asked for copter speed by default, that skill in reaching that point should it exists should only be to the elite players. The default speed simply needs to be faster where you are flying all over the place at a high rate of speed(or very high), but not at breakneck superman speed unless very skilled. Momentum also needs to go up quickly, most rooms aren't big enough.

 

5. Ya the DE is at a point where they need to rework the RNG and our ability to do missions. the Grinding in the tactical alert is beyond slow and stupid. I would never ever want that type of RNG in the actual game. If the DE could create a medium then that is what I want. Not to fast, but not to slow. Something that doesn't dictate content, but something that doesn't make us feel like slugs. - Start fast with slow Tenno getting a speed boost. go faster as bunny hopping. Elite parkouring rewarded with breakneck superman speed which shall be hard to obtain. And maybe from ceiling crawling or running.

 

7. I don't feel the DE wants camping in their game. I don't personally enjoy camping and have never done it willingly.  - Seems all everyone does is camp. That's what defense is for. Unfortunately, no one bothers with interception unless camping. Survival encourages camping due to lack of enemies until trapped in a room. Need to encourage a different means of farming.

 

I think the current speed of Parkour 2.0 is maybe 30% to slow. It is defiantly faster than current Parkour but it is just slightly to slow to make everyone decently happy. Though we haven't seen just how fast it can go so I hold my judgement. - Tenno need t move at a high rate of speed. Warframe is the only shooter with speed. It keeps people coming back.

2. I agree that speed is fun, though I don't want us to go so fast that it keeps the DE from adding content because they fear it won't be used. (aka multi pathing, stealth mechanics, optional missions) - Multipaths are normal in speed games, but it has to cater to the flow, the speed, etc. people have to care about things such as stealth to use them. Going slow may not help, but making stealth faster and smooth with nice bonuses would. Stealth must follow the speed flow.

 

3. I am hoping since the game is in Beta that next level of strategy and depth will come in time. Even then I am not saying make it as slow as we are now, just don't make it as fast as coptering. Make a medium between both. What this game needs is a skill wall between regular and fast. Fastest speed should be something only vets can aquire, and slow speed should be the regular for newbies. Even then their should be something in each tilesets and enemies that force vets to stop and not leave newbies behind. The speed shouldn't be drastic enough like it is now that it leaves people who don't use it behind in the dust, but it shouldn't be as slow as the normal speed. 

 

- Well, never asked for copter speed by default, that skill in reaching that point should it exists should only be to the elite players. The default speed simply needs to be faster where you are flying all over the place at a high rate of speed(or very high), but not at breakneck superman speed unless very skilled. Momentum also needs to go up quickly, most rooms aren't big enough.

 

5. Ya the DE is at a point where they need to rework the RNG and our ability to do missions. the Grinding in the tactical alert is beyond slow and stupid. I would never ever want that type of RNG in the actual game. If the DE could create a medium then that is what I want. Not to fast, but not to slow. Something that doesn't dictate content, but something that doesn't make us feel like slugs. - Start fast with slow Tenno getting a speed boost. go faster as bunny hopping. Elite parkouring rewarded with breakneck superman speed which shall be hard to obtain. And maybe from ceiling crawling or running.

 

7. I don't feel the DE wants camping in their game. I don't personally enjoy camping and have never done it willingly.  - Seems all everyone does is camp. That's what defense is for. Unfortunately, no one bothers with interception unless camping. Survival encourages camping due to lack of enemies until trapped in a room. Need to encourage a different means of farming.

 

I think the current speed of Parkour 2.0 is maybe 30% to slow. It is defiantly faster than current Parkour but it is just slightly to slow to make everyone decently happy. Though we haven't seen just how fast it can go so I hold my judgement. - Tenno need t move at a high rate of speed. Warframe is the only shooter with speed. It keeps people coming back.

[ProfessorZero]

Agent Orange I don't to attack you, but I feel I must slightly in order to get across my point. Solutions have been presented here (IE separate speeds for PVE and PVP) that you have rejected simply because you don't want it to happen in any form. While I can understand the "we can't let it get a foothold" strategy/policy, understand that PvP is almost a separate game already. If DE were to release the PvP as a new game for like 20 bucks, I might very well pick it up. Its a different beast by nature, all of the weapons do modified damage, the frames have modified health and what not, the maps are different, etc. Weapons like the Daikyu are great in PvP but are simply "ok" in PvE. All it would take is DE saying "in PvP sprint speed is 1.0, but in PvE it would be 1.2", bam solved. 


In general lets settle down guys, were talking about movement speed here, not nerfing the boltor. 

[Gintoki-Zero]

Did you remember to pre order Batman Arkham Knight on PC and get your greasy "mits" on it before you assumed anything?

never preorder, thats why we get cancerous S#&$ on pc

 

Tomatoes are a vegetable. I would rather eat fresh tomatoes than cookies.

LIES!!!! TOMATOES ARE TOES

[Sakatchi]

"Words"

Keep your pvp out of my pve please.

[ThePresident777]

Popularity never hurts a product.  Popularity makes a product successful.  Gotta Go fast is popular.

 

/thread.

[rockscl]

Popularity never hurts a product.  Popularity makes a product successful.  Gotta Go fast is popular.

 

/thread.

 

Evidence?

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Keep your pvp out of my pve please.

 

In that case, let's just remove PvP from the game. It appears that's what 90% of people in this thread want do do anyways.

 

Popularity never hurts a product.  Popularity makes a product successful.  Gotta Go fast is popular.

 

/thread.

 

And what's popular is very different from what's beneficial.

 

it seems that a person starving to death will take a single cookie over ten pounds of vegetables. Those people will all hopefully die of starvation. What this community wants is almost never what's good for them.

[Jinryusai]

In that case, let's just remove PvP from the game. It appears that's what 90% of people in this thread want do do anyways. - Yes, make it a separate entity altogether much like Halo and it's multiplayer...Sort of.

 

 

And what's popular is very different from what's beneficial. - And what seems beneficial, may turn out to be negative.

 

it seems that a person starving to death will take a single cookie over ten pounds of vegetables. Those people will all hopefully die of starvation. What this community wants is almost never what's good for them. - At least they die happy :)

Seems your issue is with Zephyr and other mobility skills so how about this:

 

Tailwind gets a duration boost and you can now control where it goes while it's in motion. Additionally, you can hold down 1 to lift off and float or fly in the air, Tailwind can be used while floating. Increased movement speed while floating or flying.

 

Rhino Charge - Duration increased. Now able to swerve. Impact on a wall causes a shockwave damaging enemies. Costs less energy to use. It can now be charge for extra power and distance.

 

Ripline - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/348909-instantly-castuse-riplinedefinitely-needed/

 

Slash Dash - Homing speed near instant. non homing distance increased.

[tocorro]

In that case, let's just remove PvP from the game. It appears that's what 90% of people in this thread want do do anyways.

 

Try to read and understand the point of many ppl that voiced their opinions here. I get a feeling U R so pissed at us that, U just don't understand what we are talking about. PvP is and was balanced separately of normal PvE game. Majority of players don't touch PvP, that is true. But it doesn't mean they want to cut it out from the game. Some ppl like it and we respect it. There is also Archwing, and it is also like a separate game (for now), that almost no one plays. Yet some ppl like it and no one wants it totally removed, right ?

We just don't want PvP gameplay to influence PvE so much. Balance - yes of course, but not castration.

It wouldn't be that of a problem to make PvE faster then PvP. In PvP it's fair, because then every player has equal chances (ofc his skill would matter too). The grind wall, time wall, RNG is not present in PvP to such a degree as it is in PvE - more of a time walls than anything else. 

But in PvE the RNG and timewalls are strong. And we don't want to loose precious time when it is not needed.

Edited July 4, 2015 by tocorro

[Khalixxa]

...what's popular is very different from what's beneficial.

 

I couldn't agree more. It's usually the most superficial problems in the game that get noticed and attacked and not the underlying issue.

 

Personally, when I first started playing Warframe, I was very put down by how much of a struggle it was to keep up with the team. I spent all my time trying to hop after the guys in front of me and never actually fought anything. I hope that these changes to movement don't make it worse.

[Eyeless]

When most people's arguments boil down to them just wanting to fly through the mission faster for their cheese, you can see where a lot of the playerbases focus has been driven. 

 

People want Coptering so they can copter through tilesets and get to the exit ASAP or skip over a horde of enemies they don't really feel like engaging in. 

 

Meanwhile they leave any non-coptermates in the dust even if it's a Survival where it's best to stick as a group.  I'm all for coptering dying, it'd give DE more incentive to add depth to their missiontypes when players can no-longer zip through them at nigh blistering speed. 

[ranks21]

well if the 90% of coptering players tries the new movement system and doesn't like it and decides the game got too silly and slow and just move on where would you stand with the 10% of free loaders looking to scrounge up plats?

 

 we can debate about this all we want  and the fact is even in these threads it a miniscule minority % wise want this bunny hopping  while the majority don't.  and 10% of the players shouldn't in no way have an influence on the game in any way shape or form.

 

  that said many of the players already made their minds up to see if they like the change when it comes, if it will be good enough to keep them playing/supporting warframe.

 

 new players will come that's a fact but how much and out of that how many will stay. I know from playing games that if a player base finds a game got too stupid they just leave and guess what happens after...

 

 all I'm saying right now is if they don't get this p 2.0 right you might be amongst 1k people left in warframe, I guess that is what you want.

[ThePresident777]

"Everybody is using it!  Nerf it!  Nerf it!", implies that everybody is using it, i.e., it's popular.

 

People want coptoring so they can Go Fast, like a Space Ninja.  They want coptoring for valid game play reasons.  They Gotta Go Fast for valid game play reasons, for fun.  Let's stop pretending that it's all about "cheese".  It's a strawman to say coptoring is all about "cheese", to denigrate why people want coptoring, only to then shoot it down.

Edited July 4, 2015 by ThePresident777

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

we can debate about this all we want  and the fact is even in these threads it a miniscule minority % wise want this bunny hopping  while the majority don't

 

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support this claim? Polls? Surveys? Anything? If not, everything you just said is a complete guess.

 

"Everybody is using it!  Nerf it!  Nerf it!", implies that everybody is using it, i.e., it's popular.

 

People want coptoring so they can Go Fast, like a Space Ninja.  They want coptoring for valid game play reasons.  They Gotta Go Fast for valid game play reasons, for fun.  Let's stop pretending that it's all about "cheese".  It's a strawman to say coptoring is all about "cheese", to denigrate why people want coptoring, only to then shoot it down.

 

You could say that those who want coptering removed want it for valid gameplay reasons; to stop de-valuing mobility-based warframes and to make PvP actually the slightest bit serious.

 

Fun =/= balance or what's good for the game. When starving to death, eating a single cookie will taste sweeter than 10 pounds of vegetables, but it won't keep you from starving to death. Using Trinity before the Blessing nerf was probably very fun as well.

Edited July 4, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Jinryusai]

I couldn't agree more. It's usually the most superficial problems in the game that get noticed and attacked and not the underlying issue.

 

Personally, when I first started playing Warframe, I was very put down by how much of a struggle it was to keep up with the team. I spent all my time trying to hop after the guys in front of me and never actually fought anything. I hope that these changes to movement don't make it worse.

These changes if sped included would put you inline with the speed demons...

[Jinryusai]

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support this claim? Polls? Surveys? Anything? If not, everything you just said is a complete guess.

 

 

You could say that those who want coptering removed want it for valid gameplay reasons; to stop de-valuing mobility-based warframes and to make PvP actually the slightest bit serious.

 

Fun =/= balance or what's good for the game. When starving to death, eating a single cookie will taste sweeter than 10 pounds of vegetables, but it won't keep you from starving to death. Using Trinity before the Blessing nerf was probably very fun as well.

Pve Fast, mobility abilities reworked. Pvp slow. crisis/meltdown averted...

[Jinryusai]

When most people's arguments boil down to them just wanting to fly through the mission faster for their cheese, you can see where a lot of the playerbases focus has been driven. 

 

People want Coptering so they can copter through tilesets and get to the exit ASAP or skip over a horde of enemies they don't really feel like engaging in. 

 

Meanwhile they leave any non-coptermates in the dust even if it's a Survival where it's best to stick as a group.  I'm all for coptering dying, it'd give DE more incentive to add depth to their missiontypes when players can no-longer zip through them at nigh blistering speed. 

You forget how fun it is to travel at a high rate of speed...

 

Perhaps you to try a mobility frame like Volt with maximum power.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Pve Fast, mobility abilities reworked. Pvp slow. crisis/meltdown averted...

 

The concern I had with this is that PvP and PvE would have completely different movement systems. at that point, you're basically not playing Warframe anymore and might as well go play TF2. The only way I think this could work is if PvP parkour had all the same moves as PvE parkour, just slowed down. Still, since parkour 2.0 hasn't been released yet, we have no idea what effect slowing down the parkour moves would have on them. Not only that, but all parts of parkour 2.0 would have to be slowed down equally, to prevent certain parkour moves from being more useful than others exclusively in PvP.

Edited July 4, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[ThePresident777]

The idea that coptoring devalues movement is like holding a sloth up as a role model for movement.  The cheatah, the eagle, the shark, a speeding train, formula one racing, rockets, Superman, Flash, etc. are role models for movement, not sloths.  Fast gives value to movement.  Dodging bullets gives value to movement, not sluggishness.

 

To say that coptoring devalues movement is like saying that movement devalues baby sitting a pod.

 

Games are all about Fun.  When "balance" interferes with fun, then "balance" doesn't belong in games.

 

Incidentally, there was a very interesting study done a a few decades ago about a raw vegetable based diet for humans.  A group of people attempted to survive on raw vegetables alone.  The result is that they spent all day chewing.  They had no time or energy for anything else.  The reason being that raw vegetables are very poor nutrition.  Chimpanzee diet consists mostly of raw plant matter.  They spend most of the day lounging around, chewing.  Raw vegetables are a very good symbol for "balance" and anti-coptor.  Welcome to Ruminant Gaming.

Edited July 4, 2015 by ThePresident777

[TheBrsrkr]

Yeah guys, good arguments on both sides and whatever, but could you snip the quotes please? 20 comments never seemed so long before.

[Liminal]

When most people's arguments boil down to them just wanting to fly through the mission faster for their cheese, you can see where a lot of the playerbases focus has been driven. 

 

People want Coptering so they can copter through tilesets and get to the exit ASAP or skip over a horde of enemies they don't really feel like engaging in.

Blame the mind-rotting repetitiveness of trying to get a certain reward.

They need to fix the weak foundations of the reward mechanics, and then we can deal with this sort of thing.

 

I'm not saying skipping a whole tile by coptering is good, but if you remove it and still force people to play the same mission over 70 times to get a single part ... well, many are surely going to burn out and leave.