Excalibur Rework : Press "e" To Win

[VinnyBoy]

I personally think the blade wave looks goofy. I think they should travel faster but have a short lifespan.

[fatpig84]

Except corrupted mods usually make that one skill so powerful that you don't even feel the drawbacks. Otherwise camp squads wouldn't be a thing, and they happen to be the meta in Warframe. Same goes for the whole P42W issue.

 

Yes, but you did not suggest nerfing the ability within the confines of energy drain system, you suggested outright replacing it with base duration. The problem with Peacemaker is not the fact that it's on upkeep, it's the aimbot that makes it OP and promotes inactivity. Make it duration based and it will still have the aimbot, and still promote inactivity, it will just deal less damage overall/ have smaller range/low duration etc., but mechanically it will be still the same boring aimbot.

 

Make effigy duration based, and it will still be a turret. You just make numerical adjustments so that the overall damage potential does not pass a certain threshold. Here we disagree, because I believe that skills should be limited first and foremost by mechanics of how they work, not arbitrary stats like range, power or duration. But that's just my opinion. 

 

 

Fact is, the above ultimate skills that drain energy have the least drawbacks.

They don't have to worry about duration. They don't give a damn about range.

 

Only energy pools, which is easily restored by a single EV trinity when you dropped out of it (current meta now hue).

And efficiency. That's it.

 

Then you can just pump in as much damage into it. 

This by far the most one dimensional of all.

 

 

For example Mesa.

Just build Narrow minded + damage.

You still get an incredibly strong Peacemaker which is hard capped range.

While reaping the benefits of a near 30 second 95% DR SS, since PM is not affected by range.

Hell even ballistic battery is not affected by range. The only skill that suffer is Shooting Gallery, which is not even needed in a team setting or if she is playing turret in a non infested game.

 

So is it even surprising why Mesa turret is the Meta ? Tough and damage with nearly no drawbacks.

 

We should be breaking frames that allow such setups.  

Because they have too few weaknesses. 

If Peace maker was at least affected by Power Range, people will at least think twice before putting Narrow minded.

 

 

Excal kit is nearly in the same spot.

Because he hardly needs duration now a days.

RB is the ONLY skill affected by duration. 

But it is very easy to keep it at an acceptable duration while keeping your range and your damage high.

And range is even of debatable use, since RB LOS is so wonky that it rarely works past a room.

So base range is fine as well.

[StonedMakak]

 

 

Fact is, the above ultimate skills that drain energy have the least drawbacks.

They don't have to worry about duration. They don't give a damn about range.

 

Only energy pools, which is easily restored by a single EV trinity when you dropped out of it (current meta now hue).

And efficiency. That's it.

 

Then you can just pump in as much damage into it. 

This by far the most one dimensional of all.

 

 

For example Mesa.

Just build Narrow minded + damage.

You still get an incredibly strong Peacemaker which is hard capped range.

While reaping the benefits of a near 30 second 95% DR SS, since PM is not affected by range.

Hell even ballistic battery is not affected by range. The only skill that suffer is Shooting Gallery, which is not even needed in a team setting or if she is playing turret in a non infested game.

 

So is it even surprising why Mesa turret is the Meta ? Tough and damage with nearly no drawbacks.

 

We should be breaking frames that allow such setups.  

Because they have too few weaknesses. 

If Peace maker was at least affected by Power Range, people will at least think twice before putting Narrow minded.

 

 

Excal kit is nearly in the same spot.

Because he hardly needs duration now a days.

RB is the ONLY skill affected by duration. 

But it is very easy to keep it at an acceptable duration while keeping your range and your damage high.

And range is even of debatable use, since RB LOS is so wonky that it rarely works past a room.

So base range is fine as well.

 

I really don't get the "Uses upkeep instead of duration = instantly OP" logic. Is Effigy OP? Legit question, haven't played Chroma lately.

 

My point is: you're theorycrafting with numbers, I consider other variables that are no so easily quantifiable.

 

Concerning Mesa: yeah people will consider putting Narrow Minded on her. Min-maxers will find the sweet spot, share it proudly with the community and we're back to square one. Aimbot skill with less range or damage or whatever. Now can cover only part of the map instead of the entire thing. What about inactivity? It's fine that the skill is basically a cut-scene since it can't wipe maps?

 

OR, nerf Peacemaker through mechanics. Shooting is manual. Damage stars low but successive head-shots add to the damage and fire-rate akin to combo counter. Suddenly, the effectiveness of PM relies entirely on how good of a shot player is, giving him a damage bonus if he's good enough. Plus teammates can actually do stuff, while Mesa does her thing. More involving, more skill-based. And this is just of the top of my head.

 

You don't have to tell me that such setups are game-braking.

 

I know that and I support changes to make them gone. However, I also know that what makes or breaks a skill, is the way it functions, not the X number next to power strength or duration.

 

As for Excal: I use RB all the time, zero issues with LoS. I just understand it has limits, and don't rely on it as instant pause button for enemies. If EB is duration based, then maxing duration cuts down range. Means that waves are useless -> you need to close distance between the groups of enemies quickly -> too bad range reduction gimped SD that exists for this very purpose -> too bad EB has weak copter, and will melt your eyes if you use slide-attack a lot -> better hope the new parkour is a good as the devs claim. Oh and SD is also dead as mobility skill.

 

Currently the entire kit is tailored to EB as an upkeep skill. You want to change it to duration-based? Cool, just make sure that it accommodates the entire skillset instead of creating another one-trick pony. 

[Marthrym]

How is making Power range a requirement going to "kill" EB or say Peacemaker ?

It's not about it particularly "killing" E.Blade, it's about how that kind of "balancing" breaks more than it balances. Having to play yoyo like this with each and every aspect of each and every ability could (and should IMHO) be interesting, if it didn't have such a negative effect on abilities in general. Not to mention, it promotes PX2W even more. Not that I personally care mind you...

[Elkyx]

Can you walk forward and right and press E and jump at the same time while running?

and still have my pinky on shift, you doubt what a piano player can do good sir.

if you are confused how (you arent) i drop my thumb back down to space and use my 2, 3 and 4 for w, e and d, with my pinky on shift

Edited July 8, 2015 by Elkyx

[Sashmaul]

I am failing to see the logic in asking for a rework to the rework. Is the community so dead set on putting Excalibur back where he was before this rework? Granted there are 2 issues with EB and that is it, those being that the energy wave can pass through solid objects and its distance. There is no reason for any elaborate rework of this ability and I am sure someone has already stated this, all that needs to be done is reduce the wave distance to 15-20 meters and, either remove the punch through or give it the same as seeker or shred. This is it, how refreshing is it that there is now a viable alternative to gunplay. As a community don't put him back on the shelf cause when the nerf hammer strikes it kills as shown previously.

[-Sharpz-]

The rework they did with Excal is perfect.  He is now the Poster Boy he is suppose to be.  Great job DE.

[Jinryusai]

Look at the bright side...

 

It's no longer press 4 to "nuke" everything.

 

It's not press E to kill everything in front of you :)

 

Now other players can kill stuff.

 

But Excal now falls victim to Miasma and Peacemaker spam unable to kill like everyone else.

[Jinryusai]

All that needs to be done is reduce the damage after a wave distance of 25-30 meters with a speed buff minor or major if the wave distance is reduced.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Jinryusai

[ProfessorZero]

So many people complaining about how Excal is too OP now, I remember when people wanted him to be buffed so he wasn't so much of a one trick pony. 

 

You and I started at roughly the same time, yet I get the feeling from your post that you are not one of the "push the limits" type players. What I mean by that is, you are the type of player who is fine doing twenty minutes in a defense and then leaving. The type of player who uses the powers as a perk, not a mainstay. This is fine and all, play how you will, I encourage you. I don't know how often you peruse the forums (I've only recently started actually posting much) but remember months ago where people pointed out that most of our damage dealing abilities simply didn't scale? That the only good powers were the utility ones because who cares about raidal jav in the void past minute 15 because its cost was too high and the pay off too low (in comparison to rad blind). We finally get damage abilities that yes, let you do lots of damage, but its not that much more than any of our guns (depending on your synergy of powers). The waves have travel time, the enemies can easily get out of the way but dont (AI is silly). Its a killer upclose but more useless far away. punch thru is a mainstay on most of my weapons because of how the enemies bunch up so i can hit like 3-4 consistently, and thats with hitscan. 

Excals 4th power is relatively balanced except for the energy draw, which probably could be upped 20% in all fairness. Warframe doesn't really have an energy problem. Make everything cost more energy, and suddenly trinity is back up to being our god because of infinite energy, true infinite energy. 

 

yes excal is a little strong in the early game, but by the late game hes not nearly as strong.

[Volume]

I feel like it should scale differently, less broken at low levels, less useless at high levels.

 

Hint: Being able to run/slide/etc. while casting Blind is a much bigger buff to Excal than Exalted Blade.

[Kainosh]

Excal's 4th  were supposed to be MELEE.

 

Why it have such a long range is a big mystery for me.

 

 

I expected waves to go no further than 7 meters forward... And i expected them to expand constantly. And be faster.

 

 

At least it will require to come closer to enemies...And actually use blinding and other stuff that this awesome ability gives. Instead of spamming [e] through crates.

[ImNotJellyAtAll]

Dear [DE],

I've played Warframe now more than a year and I've "mained" Excalibur for a variety of reasons.  One of the reasons is I felt he was one of the more balanced frames in the game (ignoring Radial Blind abuse).  More specifically, his "ultimate" Radial Javelin required line of sight and could not be spammed effectively requiring players to be strategic, often using it after Super Jump for synergy.

 

Fast forward to the current rework (and after the dark days of Radial Javelin spam) with a new "ultimate" - Exalted Blade.  In the final form after some hotfixes there exists some puzzling decisions which skews balance into "Overpowered" territory.

 

- Exalted Blade waves go through solid objects.  I can understand if a certain amount of Punch Through is inherent in the ability when hitting enemies.  But as it is you can spam waves into closed doors and through floors to decimate enemies which haven't even entered line of sight. 

 

- Exalted Blade procs Syndicate mods despite not equipping the melee weapon.  It's understandable if the 100% damage is added but why is the powerful AOE proc occurring when this is not the case when using melee with a Primary equipped? 

 

- Exalted Blade waves damage Nullifier shields.  The Nullifier was introduced I would assume to counter ability spam and is usually one of the few enemies that requires players to adapt on the fly.  How is it then that the waves are not negated by the shield like every other ability?

 

- Exalted Blade can be used indefinitely.  With the use of a Corrupted Mod (the source of so many balance issues) it's very easy to keep Exalted Blade up and since it's so utterly effective there is little cause *not* to have it out 24/7. 

 

I am a huge proponent for balance from the start especially with the current meta which does not bare repeating here.  Please consider some of the above points in current and future frame reworks.

 

*DISCLAIMER*  While I welcome any feedback from players the above was addressed to [DE] on the small chance it might be read.  Having been in the forums long enough I know that any talk of balance/retuning/nerfing will be met with vocal and immediate disapproval. 

IMO the only problem with Exalted Blade is the wave range. There's no reason to get within melee range of an enemy if you can just spam energy waves from the other side of the room. If the waves' range was drastically reduced, so they would be a supplement to melee damage, they'd be fine.

And a huge yes to the "24/7 Exalted Blade" bit. There needs to be a real downside to using it, whether it's being locked in at melee range, or eating through energy.

Edited July 8, 2015 by ImNotJellyAtAll

[Jinryusai]

Excal's 4th  were supposed to be MELEE.

 

Why it have such a long range is a big mystery for me.

They can't seem to give him great melee animations to fit the melee style.

 

Hysteria animation is garbage.

 

So waves are much cooler than what they would've given him. The current animations are slow n clunky and make you use default attack.

 

If it weren't for the waves, his 4th would be more boring then some make it out to be.

 

Most melee animations need an overhaul or speed boost.

 

So consider waves sort of a bandage. Could've been worse. Could have been Hysteria. Can't control Hysteria at all. Goes off in it's own directions and rare claw stance has a better moves.

[Jinryusai]

So many people complaining about how Excal is too OP now, I remember when people wanted him to be buffed so he wasn't so much of a one trick pony. 

 

You and I started at roughly the same time, yet I get the feeling from your post that you are not one of the "push the limits" type players. What I mean by that is, you are the type of player who is fine doing twenty minutes in a defense and then leaving. The type of player who uses the powers as a perk, not a mainstay. This is fine and all, play how you will, I encourage you. I don't know how often you peruse the forums (I've only recently started actually posting much) but remember months ago where people pointed out that most of our damage dealing abilities simply didn't scale? That the only good powers were the utility ones because who cares about raidal jav in the void past minute 15 because its cost was too high and the pay off too low (in comparison to rad blind). We finally get damage abilities that yes, let you do lots of damage, but its not that much more than any of our guns (depending on your synergy of powers). The waves have travel time, the enemies can easily get out of the way but dont (AI is silly). Its a killer upclose but more useless far away. punch thru is a mainstay on most of my weapons because of how the enemies bunch up so i can hit like 3-4 consistently, and thats with hitscan. 

Excals 4th power is relatively balanced except for the energy draw, which probably could be upped 20% in all fairness. Warframe doesn't really have an energy problem. Make everything cost more energy, and suddenly trinity is back up to being our god because of infinite energy, true infinite energy. 

 

yes excal is a little strong in the early game, but by the late game hes not nearly as strong.

Endgame players vs non endgame players. Often the non endgame players win.

 

In the end, even the devs don't care for endgame all that much or 40min+ endless missions...

[Faulcun]

Endgame players vs non endgame players. Often the non endgame players win.

 

In the end, even the devs don't care for endgame all that much or 40min+ endless missions...

 

Thats because the majority of the playerbase cant even reach that point without some kind of silly min/max/meta build with super specific frames and loadouts. This is why it blows my mind how people want to argue points and numbers for a potential situation they will never witness to begin with.

[IronRoby]

For those complaining Excalibur and especially his 4th ability were supposed to be about melee... No. They are supposed to be about swords.

 

And a supernatural swordmaster martial artist swinging ranged Vacuum Blades/Swords through the air is perfectly thematically in line, as much as Ash throwing a smoke bomb for stealth is for a ninja.

Edited July 9, 2015 by IronRoby

[Jinryusai]

For those complaining Excalibur and especially his 4th ability were supposed to be about melee... No. They are supposed to be about swords.

 

And a supernatural swordmaster martial artist swinging ranged Vacuum Blades/Swords through the air is perfectly thematically in line, as much as Ash throwing a smoke bomb for stealth is for a ninja.

Well, who else what Excal is going to wield a blade that shoots waves.

 

These people don't think at all.

 

What does the name "Excalibur" mean to them.

 

And what does it really mean...

 

Excalibur or Caliburn is the legendary sword of King Arthur, sometimes attributed with magical powers

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

[StonedMakak]

For those complaining Excalibur and especially his 4th ability were supposed to be about melee... No. They are supposed to be about swords.

 

And a supernatural swordmaster martial artist swinging ranged Vacuum Blades/Swords through the air is perfectly thematically in line, as much as Ash throwing a smoke bomb for stealth is for a ninja.

 

By that logic it would be acceptable to give Excal a skill that summons an army of ninja bunnies, dual-wielding katanas. After all, it has to do with swords, right? Just sayin'. 

[IronRoby]

By that logic it would be acceptable to give Excal a skill that summons an army of ninja bunnies, dual-wielding katanas. After all, it has to do with swords, right? Just sayin'. 

 

No, it would have more to do with summoning, while using swords for making ranged attacks in such a away is well established as an integral part of swordmanship in the type of pop culture Warframe draws themes from.

 

In Japan it's called kamaitachi, after wind spirits. It's about sword users who are skilled enough that they can transfer the cutting power of the sword through air as a ranged attack.

 

That ability is practically mandatory for a swordmaster of the scale Excalibur is supposed to be, when interpreting the Arthurian mythos through the lens of Space Samurai-Ninja culture.

Edited July 9, 2015 by IronRoby

[Heaven_Smile]

 

In Japan it's called kamaitachi, after wind spirits. It's about sword users who are skilled enough that they can transfer the cutting power of the sword through air as a ranged attack.

 

 

That would be fine, except in such legends it requires extreme focus to do even once. Its not something that can be done at will. It requires channeling one's ki or chi into the weapon which requires exceptional mastery and even then, time. IF you follow the legends.

Make the sword beam part of a charge attack and take it away from EVERY swing. ATM, there's no reason to combo. Just "e" all day.

Also, for the people saying Excal falls off. He does, once you get well past an hour in T4Survival. But he can stay relevant that whole time. Seen it before after the rework was finished. Just running around and spamming e. There's 0 skill cap and that's the issue i draw with it.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Heaven_Smile

[IronRoby]

Just running around and spamming e. There's 0 skill cap and that's the issue i draw with it.

 

The skill is in positioning, not getting surrounded.

 

Valkyr's Hysteria makes you totally invulnerable from all directions, but takes away your non-melee options. And lets not pretend it can't be sustained infinitely too, with duration and efficiency build.

 

Exalted Blade makes you near invulnerable (even when "blocking" them, getting shot in the face with rockets by a group of bombards hurts) in one direction, while leaving your back open. But you get to keep a ranged option as a balance.

 

Why are so many complaining about Excalibur spamming e (while needing to watch his back), while they have apparently been fine with Valkyr doing the same (without even any need to watch her back), just needing to get closer to her enemies? 

Edited July 9, 2015 by IronRoby

[StonedMakak]

No, it would have more to do with summoning, while using swords for making ranged attacks in such a away is well established as an integral part of swordmanship in the type of pop culture Warframe draws themes from.

 

In Japan it's called kamaitachi, after wind spirits. It's about sword users who are skilled enough that they can transfer the cutting power of the sword through air as a ranged attack.

 

That ability is practically mandatory for a swordmaster of the scale Excalibur is supposed to be, when interpreting the Arthurian mythos through the lens of Space Samurai-Ninja culture.

 

By that you mean that if we consider Excalibur, a magical sword, from the Space-Ninja-Samurai perspective, it is mandatory to assign to it supernatural powers from Japanese lore? See, I don't think it's mandatory. If it were, Excal should be immune to blood procs, and blind all who come near him when EB is active. I'm sure that if I reread some sources texts of Arthurian myth, I could come up with a number of supposedly "mandatory" skills for Excal. Not to mention all other mystical swords both in western and eastern culture. That's the thing about having content inspired by myths - you can cherry pick what you want. 

 

I get that you dig the Japanese lore flavor, but lore < balance in a multiplayer game. Waves are over the top, as simple as that. 

 

And tell me, do those legendary swordsmen from Japanese legends hide behind walls, trees, crates etc. like pansies while using kamaitachi?

Edited July 9, 2015 by tisdfogg

[IronRoby]

I get that you dig the Japanese lore flavor, but lore < balance in a multiplayer game. Waves are over the top, as simple as that. 

 

Being "over the top" is sort of one of the selling points of the game, you know, what with Tenno being Space Magic Parkour Ninjas, not your standard FPS Space Marines (those are the Grineer who are "over the top" in their own way).

 

You might argue if the Exalted Blade waves need to be nerfed or not - either damage or punchtrough - but there's no reason to totally remove them unless you are an enemy of people having fun.

 

And experience has taught me to be very suspicious of nerfing rebalancing things in Warframe. If DE does decide to listen to the nerf crowd, they often take it too far to please people who can never be pleased enough.

 

Let the current Excalibur stay as it is.

Edited July 9, 2015 by IronRoby

[Faulcun]

I think having a swiping wave maybe within a 5m radius would work for constant attacks, and then the shooting waves work while channeling only, with a massive strong arching attack with a cost of 50-75 energy from a charged swipe reaching 20m would be cool. It provides stages and options of attack, and makes use of more energy cost as you have to channel for stronger attacks.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Faulcun