Warframe's Pvp 2.0 Is A Prime Example Of Map Control Gone Wrong (Proposed Changes Concerning Weapons And Maps)

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Now as we all know the basis, or at least based on the changes that have been happening in pvp. We can somewhat draw a conclusion that the Devs intend to create a game not solely revolving around gun play but rather both gunplay, melee play and powers. Now I can go on a rant by stating how wrong this is and how Warframe is a third person shooter and not a damn MOBA. But ill move aside from that and address something that is prominent in PvP and that is map control.

 

Like popular and well received shooters such as gears 3, halo and lost planet I or even unreal tournment, games revolved around map control. Most cases somewhat powerful weapons are placed strategically around the map, players must fight for these weapons in order to gain an edge. Now in these games these power weapons give the player and his team and advantage not a definite win. I myself have played numerous games on Halo where we did not control many power weapons and still managed to win.

 

There is a reason for that, and that is because all because you picked up the power weapon, does not mean that you know how to use it, from the boomshot in gears to the sniper in halo. Each individual power weapon has a skill curve that much be surpassed. This is to instate that getting the power weapons is only half the battle, and using them properly is what counts. 

 

Essentially to make map control work in a game there must be two elements,

 

1) the incentive to map control, meaning that the power weapon must have an advantage and can give the team a small boost. Warframe has this element in the bag, players who hog energy will get the advantage the problem resides in the frequency of these energy spawns but I feel that this is a much smaller problem compared to what I am about to day/

 

2) The power weapons have a skill curve, so that players don't automatically win just because they are faster. This is where warframe loses, hard. And that is because powers are too easy to use.

 

When holding a power weapons or in warframe's case energy the player on the receiving end should be at a disadvantage, but if the player has a decent amount of skill should be able to tough it out and still get the kill, due to the casting player's inability to use his cast properly. Warframe does not have this, rather casts are extremely easy to use and most of the time if you get hit by a cast first and you can not cast yourself, you lose that particular battle. And that is not right.

 

You see people who never touched warframe Europa PvP in their life, playing like superstars going 30-6 and this is not because that player is good, it's simply because he spammed 1-4. Now you may be asking "well Eureka does it mean that that particular player has good map control?" and the answer is no.

 

Lets do an example/comparaison. I'm playing a game of halo 3, I am on the map narrows. There are 2 snipers 1 at each spawn, and a rocket launcher in the middle. The snipers are there so that there is a power struggle between two snipers, the winning sniper will most likely get his team a rocket launcher. And so the other players fight for the rocket launcher. But it does not end there, players must also have a sense for knowing when the weapons spawn back as their spawns are very few and far in between, players must als take into account that in many cases someone on the other team has a power weapon.

 

Warframe may have a few of the aspects but it lacks the most important thing and that is all energy is the same, it all does the same damage thus it only comes down to what frame you are using. There is no fight for the middle orb. Most importantly when obtaining such orb theres no skill, there no conflict maps are chaotic and do not promote map control whatsoever. It's clear the the design of pvp was meant for controlling powers but the maps are made for chaotic "titanfallesque" game play. You are baiscally watching a race to see who can pick up the most blue orbs. And not a communicative experience based on true map control.

 

Power weapons should HELP a team gain the edge not be the ultimatum of the game.

 

Powers should have pros and cons. Ill quote my friend Fungineer on this one

 

"... the weapons are balanced like Halo such as the SMG's high damage but lower range than an assault rifle which deals less damage but has more range. battle rifles have high range and damage but require you to get headshots (same goes for DMR), rocket launcher requires you to be moderately close because the travel time is really slow and puts you at the risk of killing yourself, the Fuel Rod Cannon has a faster travel time and can even bounce off of surfaces at certain aingles, however requires a direct hit to receive a one hit kill, Warframe has absolutely none of this balance and that's something DE really needs to work on"

 

So here are my suggestions

 

For the Warframe

 

First of all Restrict the 4th power and give it it's separate meter. This meter will go up based on kills but can only be obtained either via a high kill streak OR a high amount of kills.

 

Secondly reduce the powers based on PROCs. Make casting a power just do a proc rather than damage itself. This will give players the edge in a fight but not a guaranteed win. Make most of the casts utility, with a few exceptions like electric shield.

 

 

For the map

 

DO NOT GIVE ACCESS TO SUPER POWER WEAPONS AT SPAWN.

 

Limit the energy orbs to 1 orb per team spawn area, make a middle orb that give the player access to his 4th. This way players will fight for the 4th cast and it will not be abused like it is now.

 

Make sure that this orb only appears 3-4 times per game. The weaker orbs, reduce the spawn time but make them accessible at least 4 time per game. So that there is a focus on gunplay without completely ignoring powers.

 

 

Weapons

 

Addressing Melee as it can be extremely powerful. Make is so that player MUST equip their melee weapon in order to attack with it that way we can cater to the melee only players but not make them mash E when they are 1 meter from someone. Also Remove martial magnetisim, do i even need to explain that?

 

Remove bows, add snipers. In a game with copious amounts of movement even with the 2.0 system. It is extremely difficult to land a bow headshot in WF to the point where it is just plain luck more than skill. This is because many factors decide whether or not the arrow you shot actually hit your target  i.e Connection, hit boxes and different character models.

 

IF you intend to keep bows take out lucky shot and put Terminal Velocity back as a "bow exclusive" mod. 

 

Now the reason why I wanted to add snipers is because that way players can get head shots more often, but without being exploitable. The hit scan and the scope of the weapon, plus the ability to fire when needed will create and environment where stronger players can use snipers as they can be easy to learn but hard to master. In a game with this much movement, i feel that it is feasible and fair.

 

 

To conclude, pvp 2.0 at it's current state is a mess. It 's not even a firefight anymore. Its just a game of superman 64 but with energy orbs instead of rings. Players spam too much because it works, players mash E too much because it works. But the most important thing, and that keeps people playing the gunplay is the weakest thing in the game. Hopefully you guys at DE can read this. Don't take it word from word but at least derive it to something that works.

 

Some Examples of Balance (thanks to fungineer) Based on halo Tropes. Some are perfect and some are not but i emplore you to use this as a reference.

 

Assault Rifle ~ delivers low damage at a high rate but outshines most standard weapons at medium range

 

Battle Rifle ~ fires in 3 shot bursts, excels in long range, however, suffers in close range to various weapons and also is at danger of being sniped at longer ranges (same thing as DMR, only the DMR fires single shots)

 

SMG ~ high damage with severe damage and accuracy drop off, will beat non-power weapons in close range engagements

 

Magnum ~ deals high damage but runs through ammo at a high rate and isn’t efficient at close quarters

 

Shotgun ~ self explanatory

 

Sniper ~ very precise rifle, however, body shots do not yield one hit kills, non-headshot kills will result in a lot of wasted ammo

 

Rocket Launcher ~ very high damage and blast radius, but has a slow travel time

 

Spartan Laser ~ very high damage with no damage falloff, but has insanely slow charge time

 

Grenade Launcher ~ (2 firing modes) standard fire will launch a grenade that will kill most targets in a single hit, however can’t be manually detonated. Alt fire requires you to hold down trigger, will not kill most targets unless detonated at point blank range, comes with a handy EMP bonus. 

 

Machine Gun Turret ~ (2 firing modes) very high DPS output, mounted version requires you to be stationary, however comes with infinite ammo. Detached version allows the player to walk around, player’s walking speed is reduced while in this mode, has limited ammo supply

 

Plasma Pistol ~ (2 firing modes) single shots deal puny damage but can fired at insanely fast rates (requires good trigger finger), alt fire requires the weapon to be charged up, holding the charge consumes more ammo the longer you hold the charge for, will strip enemies of their shields and will EMP vehicles. Firing charged shot will instantly overheat the weapon

 

Plasma Rifle ~ Deals higher damage than the Assault Rifle, however has a slower fire rate and overheats quickly

 

Light Rifle ~ Fires in three round bursts (single shots when zoomed) which deal the same damage as the Battle Rifle (zoomed shots deal the same damage as the DMR), suffers from the same problem as the Battle Rifle and DMR

 

Suppressor ~ totally not a promethean clone of the Assault Rifle

 

Scattershot ~ Deals less damage than the shotgun, but does not need to be pumped back between shots

 

Binary Rifle ~ Has much higher zoom than the Sniper/Beam Rifle, kills in one shot to the body. Laser pointer when zoomed easily reveals your location, carries significantly less ammo than the other 2 snipers

 

Incineration Cannon ~ This gun isn’t balanced at all

 

 Plasma Repeater, Deals as much damage as the Assault Rifle, will not need to be reloaded, but the longer the weapon is fired, the slower it’ll fire until the weapon is either holstered, not used, or cooled (basically the same as reloading).

 

Concussion Rifle ~ deals very low damage, but has high knockback and excels at flipping lightweight vehicles

Needle Rifle ~ Deals less damage than the DMR, but has a faster fire rate, landing 4 body shots while the target has no shield will cause said target to explode

 

Needler ~ Delivers high damage, but has a slow travel time, successfully landing 6 shots while the target’s shield is down will cause the target to explode

 

Beam Rifle ~ the covenant version of the Sniper Rifle, firing 3 shots in a brief period of time will overheat the weapon, which forces you to pace your shots

 

Focus Rifle ~ Moderate damage laser beam, overheats quickly, has high, but not infinite range

 

Plasma Launcher ~ Fires 4 heat seeking plasma grenades when fully charged. Can be fired individually or in specific bursts based on how long the charge is held, has long charge and plasma grenades have very slow velocity. 

 

Gravity Hammer ~ will one hit kill players and some lightweight vehicles. Suffers from low range and a poor lunge distance.

 

Energy Sword ~ Higher lunge distance than the Gravity Hammer, has faster swing speed and will one hit players. Can be blocked by standard melee attack or another Energy Sword, deals low damage to vehicles.

 

Fuel Rod Cannon ~ Higher Velocity than Rocket Launcher, can kill in one hit if the projectiles hit the target directly. Higher ammo capacity and bounces off surfaces at 45° angles. Projectiles have very lower blast radius than the Rocket Launcher, and sometimes will bounce when not intended. 

 

Storm Rifle ~ Very high damage output, but overheats very quickly. 

 

Boltshot ~ (2 firing modes) single fire deals very low damage, alt fire deals heavy damage but has severe damage falloff

 

 

Edited July 4, 2015 by Eureka.seveN

[Rakshal]

Very well thought out post, and I agree. The map design is centered around coptering with a Bo Prime and pressing 1-4 and it needs to be fixed. 1+

[rockscl]

just ignore the coptering part, its gonna dissapear in 2 weeks or less

Edited July 4, 2015 by rockscl

[Thalahssalyst]

 

 

DO NOT GIVE ACCESS TO SUPER POWER WEAPONS AT SPAWN.

 

Limit the energy orbs to 1 orb per team spawn area, make a middle orb that give the player access to his 4th. This way players will fight for the 4th cast and it will not be abused like it is now.

 

Make sure that this orb only appears 3-4 times per game. The weaker orbs, reduce the spawn time but make them accessible at least 4 time per game. So that there is a focus on gunplay without completely ignoring powers.

 

 

Can i say, Why?

I think the Orbs make the people choice different types of warframes, With different styles and ways to adapt, limiting the energy spawn, area, time, amount, its going to make a stats based warframe no on "o well, i think i going to play with Ember today because..."

Making a unnecesary limit of choices, no more mag, no more Nyx (yes i know i know), no more ember...

Why you want to focus on Gun play, and restrict on some ways the melee?

Just Questions...

Edited July 4, 2015 by Grimlock-

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Can i say, Why?

I think the Orbs make the people choice different types of warframes, With different styles and ways to adapt, limiting the energy spawn, area, time, amount, its going to make a stats based warframe no on "o well, i think i going to play with Ember today because..."

Making a unnecesary limit of choices, no more mag, no more Nyx (yes i know i know), no more ember...

Why you want to focus on Gun play, and restrict on some ways the melee?

Just Questions...

If you consider mashing 1-4 and E a playstype then you need a dose of good shooters. The quality of the game is suffering because of this.

[rockscl]

people spams abilities because  2 reasons, 1 the rest of the players doesnt embrace the objectives, 2 bo coptering makes it so easy that the invested time is under 5 seconds in most of the maps, stop suggesting that the only reason behind is a lack of skill on the ones that can be objective enough to see that warframe is simply not just about guns, its disrespectful, not just to the players, DE has put 4 engineers to design this, all of them probably more aware of what warframe is than you, and if theres something that is working good is the balance of objectives in a 4v4 match

Edited July 4, 2015 by rockscl

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

people spams abilities because  2 reasons, 1 the rest of the players doesnt embrace the objectives, 2 bo coptering makes it so easy that the invested time is under 5 seconds in most of the maps, stop suggesting that the only reason behind is a lack of skill on the ones that can be objective enough to see that warframe is simply not just about guns, its disrespectful, not just to the players, DE has put 4 engineers to design this, all of them probably more aware of what warframe is than you, and if theres something that is working good is the balance of objectives in a 4v4 match

As someone who has played shooters for over 16 years. Both successful and failed shooters, I am just being constructive.

 

Notice that I did not say to remove abilities altogether (even if I would really like that). But rather to make abilities more objective and more of the focus of the game without being spammable. In it's current state, a player can come across energy at almost any time. But by integrating longer spawn times, reducing energy spawns to 3 (1 on each side and 1 super energy in the middle) can promote team work and objective play and true map control.

 

But the battle does not end there as the powers earned by players give a guaranteed kill, this is not right and thus should be tweaked so that YES the player has an advantage but it can still be taken down by a much higher skilled player or in the case that the player casting has low skill. This is to create a learning curve for each power in order to keep balance and to add more depth to the gameplay.

 

Making 4 powers go kill based will allow players to focus more on the objective of the game i.e killing and not to just run around and accumulate energy. 

 

As for the "embrace" the objectives argument yes most players don't go for objectives that why, by adding a super energy orb in the middle of the map, players will be more inclined to play objectively aside from gettin kills.

 

As for the "bo" arguement, even if coptering will be removed and the 2.0 system is integrated, people will still camp energy and not attempt to get a single kill without having at least 25 energy at their side, even if you are slower than parkour 1.0. It comes down to the same conclusion, players with energy are GUARANTEED a kill and not given an advantage. This is wrong. By reducing the energy spawns and energy respawns players will have to be able to control the map by getting kills in order to obtain energy. As opposed to running around the map like a dimwit. The parkour system will not solve the energy spamming problem.

 

And also this "respect" argument. I don't care. If someone makes something that is flawed and I am able to critique on it I will call out on it. I don't care how many people worked on PvP and I don't care what they know what I don't.

 

At the end of the day, the goal of these people is to make a pvp warframe mode that will appease consumers, increase the games quality and enjoyment so that players are inclined to stay and purchase more platinum. At it's current state PvP does not achieve that. If devs want to increase they playtimes of their players they need to make their game play have more depth. Getting orbs and mashing 1-4 does not have depth, holding dual swords and mashing E does not give depth. And just displeases both veterans and new players.

 

 stop suggesting that the only reason behind is a lack of skill on the ones that can be objective enough to see that warframe is simply not just about guns, its disrespectful, not just to the players, DE has put 4 engineers to design this

DE devs are human they make a plan without knowing that the game will be good or flawed. Stop using the excuse of objectivity to make it seem that the devs are doing a perfect job. 

 

Think of the Pre-Patched model 1887s in MW2. Im using this example because like powers it is atrociously overpowered. Are you going to defend the Infinity Ward developers that it is fine because players are not "objective" enough to realize that using models is a good tactic? 

 

Also using powers is a lack of skill, why? Ill make a list right now

1) Not much aim required

2) Fast Casting

3) High Damage

4) High Utility

 

 

With casts that dont require much aim, high damage or high utility should not be present. Having little aim consequence is already a huge advantage and should be evened out with many disadvantages. Look at the simulor for example, the projectiles follow targets in exchange they do low damage. 

 

As for the "disrespect" and lack of skill. Yes I do disrespect people who use powers all the time and spam the living hell out of them, and I think they lack skill. Because of the advantages I just mentioned. Powers do not have significant disadvantages and that needs to change especially with the parkour 2.0 where you can not run away from procs and casts. Thus the players who exploit them, lack skill. Im sorry its true.

 

I see people who never touched a real 1.0 conclave game in their life and somehow have a higher K/D than some of the 1.0 veterans I have seen in WF. You are telling me that the people in 1.0 who worked alot harder to get their kills have K/Ds that are lower than people who power spam? So ya i will be disrespectful because it gives players too much power and it needs to stop.

 

If you think that using exploits is being objective you still got a lot to learn about MP design young padawan.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Eureka.seveN

[rockscl]

 

As for the "bo" arguement, even if coptering will be removed and the 2.0 system is integrated, people will still camp energy and not attempt to get a single kill without having at least 25 energy at their side, even if you are slower than parkour 1.0. It comes down to the same conclusion, players with energy are GUARANTEED a kill and not given an advantage. This is wrong. By reducing the energy spawns and energy respawns players will have to be able to control the map by getting kills in order to obtain energy. As opposed to running around the map like a dimwit. The parkour system will not solve the energy spamming problem.

 

 

The future ease of energy camping is probably not what will happen, because with slower movement and environment based mobility, the placement of energy orbs will make em riskier to grab as it was always meant to be, both in time spent and damage taken in the process, and guaranteed kill on 25 energy isnt true either, no need to go into maths there, you went overboard

 

 

And also this "respect" argument. I don't care. If someone makes something that is flawed and I am able to critique on it I will call out on it. I don't care how many people worked on PvP and I don't care what they know what I don't.

 

DE devs are human they make a plan without knowing that the game will be good or flawed. Stop using the excuse of objectivity to make it seem that the devs are doing a perfect job. 

 

You are saying that players farm energy because they are bad, im saying that the players are farming energy because the rest of players are allowing them to do so, im not saying anywhere that you cant criticize anything

 

As for the "disrespect" and lack of skill. Yes I do disrespect people who use powers all the time and spam the living hell out of them, and I think they lack skill. Because of the advantages I just mentioned. Powers do not have significant disadvantages and that needs to change especially with the parkour 2.0 where you can not run away from procs and casts. Thus the players who exploit them, lack skill. Im sorry its true.

 

I see people who never touched a real 1.0 conclave game in their life and somehow have a higher K/D than some of the 1.0 veterans I have seen in WF. You are telling me that the people in 1.0 who worked alot harder to get their kills have K/Ds that are lower than people who power spam? So ya i will be disrespectful because it gives players too much power and it needs to stop.

 

If you think that using exploits is being objective you still got a lot to learn about MP design young padawan.

 

DE has given abilities a protagonist role, and you adopt a hateful attitude against those who play the game as it is meant to be played, the numbers have been presented several times, its like 16 energy per player, or 5 players with 25 each 40 seconds out of FFA, as long as the exploited thing is the wrong strategy of the rest of the players i dont see a problem, and some abilites are really too easy to profit, such as radial nukes in general, but dont pretend to make cc1.0 performance a balance factor

Edited July 4, 2015 by rockscl

[Thalahssalyst]

I just read everything you 've said.

I think the main problem is not the game mode, are tastes.

People are stuck to what was 1.0 , and after reading everything you put it, came to the conclucion , that your suggestions are focused on what it was.

 

I 'm the only one who sees this topic as an attempt to revive something which was 1.0 ?

 

Limit the use of energy would give warframes disadvantage with low stats, returning to the same wrong purpose of what happened before.

 

Focus on Gun play ?

Why?

there is something wrong in using melee in a  ninja game? (Having in reference what you have say on a match were i was with you, Melee should be only for move, no for damage)

I have  seen more veterans in the first place , than people just push  1-4 to win.  (1-4 To win, whats next?)

I do not think for many it is a problem .

About the melee , forcing the player to use his melee just having it equipped ?

It does not seem bad idea, but there would still be complaints about the melee , for the ability to block , and my judgment, should buff .

What is the problem , never touching  Europe before?

That was a shooter at high speed , nothing more.

There was no melee play, warframes with different stats, everything was based on valkyr / zephyr / ash ... (Stats)

Speed , and armor, where was the unique aspect of warframe?

I just saw people shotting.

 

About the orb camp, really?

Not a problem, you can not sit still in one place, and wait for the orb, and tried it, and even the most novice was layers to kill me.

And no, 25 energy is not enough, most of the skills, do not kill in 1 hit.

Only obreron (I think) he is able to kill my 225 energy of my excalibur.

 

 

If you consider mashing 1-4 and E a playstype then you need a dose of good shooters. The quality of the game is suffering because of this. 

 

If you want to focus on only Gun-Play, there are dose of good shooters around there.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Grimlock-

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

and you adopt a hateful attitude against those who play the game as it is meant to be played,

 

thanks for the advice, i learned to give zero f*cks about 99% of this community´s words long time ago, most players here seems to be under age kids that cant fit into the rated M and half of the rest are as immature as if they were still under aged for the rated M, like the guy who posted afer you, who clearly didnt even get the point of keeping value for the gameplay, my words are directed to DE and whoever feels like taking part in a real discussion

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/475381-limitless-retradeability-is-nocive-for-warframe/#entry5293530

[rockscl]

 

considering that what im saying there was in regards of a nerf on the trade system and the always negative reaction to any nerfs, adding the fact that the guy tho whom i answered there didnt even read my post: i dont really see how it goes here

 

btw if you want abilities to be more skill based, you should note that im one of the those asking for changing radial/global nukes into a gameplay catalizer, skill based thing, i took a lot of hate for asking changes on bladstorm back then

Edited July 4, 2015 by rockscl

[cary2010haha1]

but. do you know most kills in PVP2.0 are done by range weapon, not 1-4 and E  :P




Melee damage sucks, Power--< DE nerfed the eneryg spawn.

 

 

Dailyu still the best weapon with copt.

 

And plz, don't use Xbox/PS games compare PC games, do you see BF4 players in PS & PC have how big different in play style and kill effective? CONSOLE is always too casual.

[Rakshal]

but. do you know most kills in PVP2.0 are done by range weapon, not 1-4 and E  :P

Melee damage sucks, Power--< DE nerfed the eneryg spawn.

 

 

Dailyu still the best weapon with copt.

 

And plz, don't use Xbox/PS games compare PC games, do you see BF4 players in PS & PC have how big different in play style and kill effective? CONSOLE is always too casual.

I think I'll just leave this here and let people decide whether you belong here still.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/483316-parkour-20-issue-gotta-go-fast-hurts-the-game/?p=5392316

[-NyriX-]

 

 

I just read everything you 've said.

I think the main problem is not the game mode, are tastes.

People are stuck to what was 1.0 , and after reading everything you put it, came to the conclucion , that your suggestions are focused on what it was.

 

I 'm the only one who sees this topic as an attempt to revive something which was 1.0 ?

 

Limit the use of energy would give warframes disadvantage with low stats, returning to the same wrong purpose of what happened before.

 

 

Well I know I don't. I see this thread as one that is trying to mix in different concepts to provide a better experience for all players. Right now the amount of spam occurring in game is ridiculous. 

 

Okay, sure... not allowing... hmm lets say, ember.... not allowing ember to have energy wont allow her to cast. Yeah shes pretty squishy alright. But considering that 90% of the time I see an ember, they immediately go for the energy and start spamming all of her abilities, including WoF?... yeah I really don't like that. 
 

Nerf the energy, give more durability and let the abilities be something like an "extra" or "bonus" as mentioned in the OP's post. The casting frames are all slower than the non-casters. I.e. Valkyr. Shes fast, and tanky. Reducing the amount of energy WILL in fact maintain the playstyles. If not, create more. Why? Because you can either be a tankier gun user who has useless abilities, or a heavy caster, who has monstrous abilities. Now that coptering is being modified, the truth prevails even more. Even with parkour. (Reference the previous devstream) It's going to be reaaaaal slow. Mostly any ability will guarantee a kill. Sure, it may require 1-3 more shots from your wep but thats no big deal since you're probably stunned anyway. Increased ability rarity is what solves these problems. Even if parkour is sped up, the true issue remains at hand.

 

 

 

Focus on Gun play ?

Why?

there is something wrong in using melee in a  ninja game? (Having in reference what you have say on a match were i was with you, Melee should be only for move, no for damage)

I have  seen more veterans in the first place , than people just push  1-4 to win.  (1-4 To win, whats next?)

I do not think for many it is a problem .

About the melee , forcing the player to use his melee just having it equipped ?

It does not seem bad idea, but there would still be complaints about the melee , for the ability to block , and my judgment, should buff .

What is the problem , never touching  Europe before?

That was a shooter at high speed , nothing more.

There was no melee play, warframes with different stats, everything was based on valkyr / zephyr / ash ... (Stats)

Speed , and armor, where was the unique aspect of warframe?

I just saw people shotting.

 

About the orb camp, really?

Not a problem, you can not sit still in one place, and wait for the orb, and tried it, and even the most novice was layers to kill me.

And no, 25 energy is not enough, most of the skills, do not kill in 1 hit.

Only obreron (I think) he is able to kill my 225 energy of my excalibur.

 

 

If you consider mashing 1-4 and E a playstype then you need a dose of good shooters. The quality of the game is suffering because of this. 

 

If you want to focus on only Gun-Play, there are dose of good shooters around there.

 

 

"Something wrong with using melee in a ninja game?

 

lol okay. Ninja game. This itself infers a "stealthy, quick, faster paced game". Now, what Eureka is trying to explain is how E mashers (people who literally mash e, or spin attacks, to win) are broken. Putting the two together E mashers + Warframe =/= Ninja game. 

 

Now I know I said that this thread aint trying to convert what pvp 3.0 is back into pvp 1.0/2.0, but I'm just going to throw this out there. Back in True PvP 1.0 (which is the first pvp ever introduced into the game, before any modifications to it), coptering, had its usefulness in two ways. Lets take the dual kamas for example. They were 1: Fast, so good for moving, and 2: Its copter one shot any frame, because of the unmodified raw 2k+ damage. Now adding in the weapon one shots, fast movement, this created an actual "ninja game". This PvP 2.0 is trash in the term of "ninja". The casts aren't even ninja. Like what?.... As Eureka said in the opening paragraph, "Warframe is a third person shooter and not a damn MOBA."

 

Towards your statement of "for the ability to block , and my judgement, should buff." Not sure if I understand what you're saying but are you saying that blocking should be buffed? I'd like to completely disagree. It's op as hell right now. Guard up lasts forever and takes quite a lot of damage to get the guard down, due to low stamina costs on many weapons. And again, all he has to do is move a bit then BAM guard is back up. Hopefully parkour 2.0 does something about this (nerf it, not buff it.)

 

"There was no melee play, warframes with different stats..." 

Yeah, you're right. Late pvp (aka PvP 2.0) was S#&$ because of the decisions DE made. Such as? you may ask... sure, here 1: They nerfed the damage completely, meaning weapons did I think the changes were like "25% of the weapon damage to health, 50% to shield" or something, it was stupid as hell. This completely destroyed meleeing. It was useless, so we all focused on more movement instead of tactical attacks. This is the PvP most of the 2.0 community refers to, so I can assure you, there was melee play in true 1.0. So let me get this out of the way, and I'm sure I speak on behalf of most of the vets, True PvP 1.0 was the best PvP. Not PvP 2.0, nor 3.0. 

 

Abilities too, yeah it was OP as hell, so thank to the Code of Honor we all made, nobody used them. PvP was ignored on behalf of DE for a long time, which is why bad decisions were made, or it was simply left untouched. It only needed a few modifications and it would have been fine. 

 

"About the orb camp, really?"

 

Yeah. Really. Take the europa map for example. Most people fight in the main floor, or more specifically the mid - while energy spawns up top. This easily creates the opportunity for a spammer to quickly go up and get an orb (actually, 3 orbs since there are 3 orbs up top), then come back down and spam. Easy win, ain't it. Okay, sure. there are what, 4 maps? It's the same situation for most of them. Camping is possible, even if you arent static, you can move around and easily come back to the orb to pick it up. I shouldn't mention this since its going to be removed, but coptering makes this all too much easier.

 

"25 energy is not enough"

Lets take Rhino charge as an example. Sure it doesn't one hit kill. But consider the fact that only 1-4 more shots can kill you. This doesnt even give time to even have a CHANCE to hit the other guy. Or if you somehow do, you probably won't get passed shield health. Especially if that player is using an auto or a shotgun. It's an easy strat anyone can do. Adding the fact that most encounters in PvP arent even 1v1, but instead 2v1, or 1v2 or whatever, adds the fact that while someone casts, the other can finish it off. You may say that "well yeah, thats teamwork", but again the fact remains that the spam is just overkill and too much. It's basically a killfeed strat, which is just stupid, in my opnion.

 

And um, "Only oberon (I think) he is able to kill my 225 energy of my excalibur." My apologies that again I'm not understanding, but are you saying that only oberon can kill your excal with 225 energy? 

 

Um what? Max energy cap is 100. Not 225. Second, I don't even think his 4 one shots excal. It needs to be used with a weapon or whatever. 

 

Unless you mean "Only oberon's 25 energy ability can kill my excalibur". 

Then again, thats false. Obe's first ability is probably one of the weakest first abilities of the PvP warframe roster (unless target is in an enclosed space). I only use oberon to combo after my daikyu hits a tankier opponent. 

 

And finally, as for your last statement - "If you want to focus on Gun-Play, there are a dose of good shooters out there."

This one frankly irritates me. K first off, no. I enjoy warframe because of its unique style and how it plays, which is why I LOVED True 1.0. However, with the addition of 3.0, DE frankly murdered pvp. So this is the "PvP Feedback", hence I'm (we're) giving feedback on what I believe could fix multiple of the problems available and can provide a much better experience for all users. What you said is like saying "Oh you want a game with abilities and possible spam? Theres hundreds of MOBA's out there, so go play them and forget about WF". So yeah no. 

 

 

 

but. do you know most kills in PVP2.0 are done by range weapon, not 1-4 and E  :P




Melee damage sucks, Power--< DE nerfed the eneryg spawn.

 

 

Dailyu still the best weapon with copt.

 

And plz, don't use Xbox/PS games compare PC games, do you see BF4 players in PS & PC have how big different in play style and kill effective? CONSOLE is always too casual.

 

Your first point is debatable, and I'm going to say no simply because there are many more spams than actual weapon kills. But again, it's possible that someone used an ability, didnt kill them, but the target has like 20 hp left, so they shoot them - easy kill. So yes, and no. 

 

Second point, try the dual raza, kogake, etc etc. Sure there are some useless melees, but some are easy as hell to mash and give results. 

 

We're only bringing the CONCEPT of the FRAMEWORK of the game, plus 

 

I think I'll just leave this here and let people decide whether you belong here still.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/483316-parkour-20-issue-gotta-go-fast-hurts-the-game/?p=5392316

 

Nice catch lmao

[elele]

I don't understand this hate toward 4. I mean it's so infrequent in a match. Also isn't there a mod that allows you to detect a player with full energy? --Broken mod by the way, but that's a problem with the mod, not 4 per se. 

 

Spammable 1 is indeed spammed whenever a player can. But 1 generally also takes skill (aim and timing) to use. 

 

If anything, the current map control design has one little problem, which is that the current parkour/copter movement system is very imprecise.

[cary2010haha1]

I think I'll just leave this here and let people decide whether you belong here still.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/483316-parkour-20-issue-gotta-go-fast-hurts-the-game/?p=5392316

 

Ya~ I am always want to kill PVP in WF, but it didn't make me duno how PVP works at the moment.

 

 

Second point, try the dual raza, kogake, etc etc. Sure there are some useless melees, but some are easy as hell to mash and give results.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/478767-furax-is-op/

they are so OP :P Do you want to proof it again?

[Kashiki]

I agreed with you up until the "only use guns" argument.

 

Honestly, it's homogeneity that ruins games like this for anyone.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Kashiki

[Zeally]

The biggest problems are that energy is way too abundant still, and allows for people to spam ults and or first abilities, and those happen to be poorly balanced in general. Abilities should be supplemental to gunplay. But even then, the guns arent even properly properly balanced.

The second problem, is melee is hardly balanced as well. Its pretty easy to figure out which provide better mobility, and which will provide a better damage.

As with the main game, balance is lack luster at best, and when it comes to a competitive setting, choosing the best weapons will provide the best result for you. Homogenizing the weapons and warframes is the easy route to fixing all the apparent problems, but its not the best way. You have some good points, but with the amount of varied weapons and warframes, getting conclaves perfect will always be hit or miss.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

I havent played CC/PvP in warframe so I cant provide feedback about "broken" mods. I will address a few key points that OP doesnt seem to understand about PvP.

 

1) Lane control

To control an area so you deny the enemy access to that area. Maybe the OP should try actually controlling the map. Watch for players who go after orbs. Deny them the opportunity to get them. Either camp that spot yourself, or get a teammate to watch it. Lane control has been a SoP since games were first made....... Pong...... been getting more advanced ever since.

Halo had power weapons on the map.

Mech Assassult had power upgrades on the map.

Battlefield has turrets and Airstrikes on the map.

 

2) Camping is SoP. You cant ever stop camping in MP.

 

3) You say youve been playing PvP for how many years? How do you NoT know what a KDR @#&amp;*( is?

 

As I said, I havent played WF pvp yet, so no comment on the rest of your rant.........

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

I havent played CC/PvP in warframe so I cant provide feedback about "broken" mods. I will address a few key points that OP doesnt seem to understand about PvP.

 

1) Lane control

To control an area so you deny the enemy access to that area. Maybe the OP should try actually controlling the map. Watch for players who go after orbs. Deny them the opportunity to get them. Either camp that spot yourself, or get a teammate to watch it. Lane control has been a SoP since games were first made....... Pong...... been getting more advanced ever since.

Halo had power weapons on the map.

Mech Assassult had power upgrades on the map.

Battlefield has turrets and Airstrikes on the map.

 

2) Camping is SoP. You cant ever stop camping in MP.

 

3) You say youve been playing PvP for how many years? How do you NoT know what a KDR @#&*( is?

 

As I said, I havent played WF pvp yet, so no comment on the rest of your rant.........

1) 

 

Lane control is for MOBAS not third person shooters. Warframe is a third person shooter not a MOBA. And my suggestion makes it so there is a bigger focus on it, i implore you to read it.

 

2) Uh what, never said that. But to contradict your statement, lets see the mods that community players made for Unreal Tournament.

 

https://forums.unrealtournament.com/showthread.php?18609-EnhancedPlay-(Mutator-UTComp-remake)

 

 

3)um what

Edited July 6, 2015 by Eureka.seveN

[-NyriX-]

-snip-

 

No, its pretty frequent. In my matches, at LEAST 1 of the 4 enemies will be dedicated to collecting energy to spam 4. This being said however, "1-4" was only mentioned, not only 4. We're talking in general all ability spam in this thread. 

 

I don't see how any of the first warframe abilities in the pvp roster currently take "skill" to use. Here's a classic example: Frost. His 1 slows down the opponent, Just get a little close, aim it near the guy and it freezes. Like what? Wheres the skill? Probably one of the only first abilities that may take slightly more skill in this case would be oberon, since the crosshair has to be on target. But even having said this, it's fairly easy to use. I use it after a daikyu shot to finish tankier frames off. 

 

Though, I can agree to your last point. The only easily parkourable map at the moment is Europa, and I thoroughly believe that parkour 2.0 wont solve this problem in any of the maps, which is why along with the parkour 2.0 change, I agree with OP's post.

 

-snip-

 

Um, what are you talking about? I dont understand.... PvP should be in warframe as it brings an aspect of gameplay that a PvE only game wouldn't have. Sure, in your post in the other thread you mentioned Dark Sector PvP. Yeah, you're right. It was terrible and a pretty bad decision. But whatever, its in the past. New pvp is different and should continue to be modified according to the community's needs. 

 

And yes, kogake/raza/etc are pretty op. Bo is op for speed.

 

-snip-

 

Not saying "only use guns" at all. We're saying, yes, to use guns, but have abilities implemented as a little extra, instead of having abilities as the standard pistol. 

 

I'll rephrase. What we mean is to not have abilities given off the bat, but progressively given or achieved, to create more fairness in the matches for all players.

 

I havent played CC/PvP in warframe so I cant provide feedback about "broken" mods. I will address a few key points that OP doesnt seem to understand about PvP.

 

1) Lane control

To control an area so you deny the enemy access to that area. Maybe the OP should try actually controlling the map. Watch for players who go after orbs. Deny them the opportunity to get them. Either camp that spot yourself, or get a teammate to watch it. Lane control has been a SoP since games were first made....... Pong...... been getting more advanced ever since.

Halo had power weapons on the map.

Mech Assassult had power upgrades on the map.

Battlefield has turrets and Airstrikes on the map.

 

2) Camping is SoP. You cant ever stop camping in MP.

 

3) You say youve been playing PvP for how many years? How do you NoT know what a KDR @#&*( is?

 

As I said, I havent played WF pvp yet, so no comment on the rest of your rant.........

 

1: What? I dont even want to respond to this, but I'm going to. I'm just gonna start by saying this: PLAY THE GAME BEFORE ACTUALLY COMMENTING. This pvp is COMPLETELY different! You can't really "control" the map in this game as is, compared to, battlefield, a game you mentioned, where you only need a rifle and you can cover multiple areas. The most you could do is copter around with a bo and killing whoever you see. But controlling one of the PvP maps alone while trying to kill the enemy isnt possible in this. "Camp that spot yourself". Camp all 4 spots which are pretty well separated by yourself? no.... OH right, get your teammates to do it?... and probably die because of a 2+v1? NO. Oh and let me add this.. HOW FUN! Trying to camp at the energy to not let someone else get it. No matter how you view it, it isnt going to work. Plus, lane control, like eureka said... it's for MOBAs, again... not WARFRAME. OH and also, refer to point 4. Map control, however, is what Eureka is trying to bring in the game, hence the reason he created this entire topic.

 

2: What? no.... If you read some posts above it was said that you can't camp in this game since you'd probably die. and um... yes, yes you can stop camping in mp... I don't see why not. Warframe  would be unplayable due to the boredom if all you had to do was camp to win. Look, heres an example of why you're wrong: I use oberon, daikyu, lex, and bo prime. I don't camp. I can't. The daikyu just wont make it possible, but I like it so I use it. And you know what, in most games, I easily go 25-3. Why? Because of experience, and I'm not camping. (Before anyone asks, no, I do not spam abilities unless its my 1 to finish off a tanky target.) So again, no, not in all games, including warframe. This is a false claim.

 

3: What are you talking about? I'm gonna answer on behalf of e7 if he doesn't mind but um... What? Heres a direct copy and paste of what he said.

 

"I see people who never touched a real 1.0 conclave game in their life and somehow have a higher K/D than some of the 1.0 veterans I have seen in WF. You are telling me that the people in 1.0 who worked alot harder to get their kills have K/Ds that are lower than people who power spam?"

 

How does he "NoT know what a KDR @#&`( is?" 

 

4: Please, before posting a comment in this thread, please... please please play a match or two so you understand what we're talking about and so you can get a grip on what the reality of the situation is before posting a nonsensical comment. Oh and also, please, read the entire post and also possibly the other comments as well, so again you can understand e7's intentions and see what the other arguments in the thread are.

[elele]

No, its pretty frequent. In my matches, at LEAST 1 of the 4 enemies will be dedicated to collecting energy to spam 4. This being said however, "1-4" was only mentioned, not only 4. We're talking in general all ability spam in this thread. 

 

I won't even bother to do the calculation again as it's beating a dead horse now. Suffice to say if both teams know what they're doing, 4 spam isn't even remotely a problem. Only when several players on one team are completely incompetent, then 4 is used more frequently. But then again, incompetent team will be dominated anyway, with or without 4. 

 

 

I don't see how any of the first warframe abilities in the pvp roster currently take "skill" to use. Here's a classic example: Frost. His 1 slows down the opponent, Just get a little close, aim it near the guy and it freezes. Like what? Wheres the skill? Probably one of the only first abilities that may take slightly more skill in this case would be oberon, since the crosshair has to be on target. But even having said this, it's fairly easy to use. I use it after a daikyu shot to finish tankier frames off. 

 

Don't take what I said out of context. OP was arguing that Halo power weapons have "skill curve". So how is "aiming Freeze near a guy and he freezes" different from "aiming Halo rocket launcher near a guy and he eats rocket splash damage"? 

[Thalahssalyst]

 

 

 

Don't take what I said out of context. OP was arguing that Halo power weapons have "skill curve". So how is "aiming Freeze near a guy and he freezes" different from "aiming Halo rocket launcher near a guy and he eats rocket splash damage"? 

I like that the only thing that actually in warframe counts as "skills" is gun-play.

 

Edited July 6, 2015 by Grimlock-

[-NyriX-]

I won't even bother to do the calculation again as it's beating a dead horse now. Suffice to say if both teams know what they're doing, 4 spam isn't even remotely a problem. Only when several players on one team are completely incompetent, then 4 is used more frequently. But then again, incompetent team will be dominated anyway, with or without 4. 

 

 

 

Don't take what I said out of context. OP was arguing that Halo power weapons have "skill curve". So how is "aiming Freeze near a guy and he freezes" different from "aiming Halo rocket launcher near a guy and he eats rocket splash damage"? 

 

Availability?

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Availability?

^ This halo weapons spawn nowhere near as frequent as warframe orbs