Eliminating The Copter - Bad Or Good?

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

The new moves look like a welcome addition. But I don't think it's superior to what we have now as a Melee player.

o-o to be fair you bring a good point, so far all they've shown us is how the new moves affect overall parkour and some gunplay. Was there even remotely how those play out on melee attacks? (wall-attacks or maybe something with jump attacks right after bullet jump or .. something)?

[Rakosta_Kai]

https://twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/620749603336368128

 

Those look like neither afuris or dex afuris he's carrying in that clip to me.  It looks like the Dex body with the Afuris clip.

Anybody else?

 

If it's an accidental spoiler ... I'd just like DE to know I liked the banana style clip on the version from the sentient reveal more.

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

Those look like neither afuris or dex afuris he's carrying in that clip to me.  It looks like the Dex body with the Afuris clip.

Anybody else?

 

If it's an accidental spoiler ... I'd just like DE to know I liked the banana style clip on the version from the sentient reveal more.

By the way: is it just me or the left hand appears to be shooting backwards at the second "clip" where he bulletjumps>Aimglides and shoots the grineer?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Ah look a meta-complaint about something that is not even out yet.

In Before The Lock!

Why not? DE can be freaking slow and stuborn sometimes. A revert could take up to a year. Now is definitly the best time to talk this out.

Coptering kinda relys on a fast melee build whats far from productive for the best weapons in the game. It's a trade. Replacing it with a bullet-copter could therefore be a good thing. I'm strictly against a complete deletion tho.

[Gelkor]

Coptering kinda relys on a fast melee build whats far from productive for the best weapons in the game. It's a trade. Replacing it with a bullet-copter could therefore be a good thing. I'm strictly against a complete deletion tho.

 

Keep in mind coptering is primarily going away because of the removal of the movement lock bug that causes both coptering and getting stuck on terrain for 5 to 10 seconds when moving at high velocity (ever directional melee-ed a camera and got stuck with your head in the ceiling for 6 seconds? That's the bug that makes coptering work).  They aren't getting rid of slide melee, only the momentum lock bug.

 

I for one look forward to not getting stuck on walls and ceilings. 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Gelkor

[Malikon]

I'm leaning towards "let's try it and see what happens". 

 

The best thing that can happen is the game starts rewarding skillful movement and navigation and allows folks to diversify melee weapons.  Only those who are too lazy to learn or actively want to skip as much of the game as possible would be negatively affected by this.

 

The worst thing that can happen is it can fail horribly; in which case the community uproar will be so loud that the response will be an overly swift kneejerk that will go through multiple iterations before a harmony is found again.

 

We as players, provided that we are patient and do our due diligence in accurately and objectively reporting issues, stand to lose nothing here.

 

Edit: corrected some typographical errors.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Malikon

[Rajal]

Let's be honest here, no one will use the Magistar, because of it's stats, it was NERFED with the Heavy weapon BUFFS ( XD LOL ).

 

Ah, I had no idea about that. Sorry, my noob is showing.

 

...Still gonna level it up to 30 though, even if it makes me cringe.

[_FrostPrime_]

Gonna laugh when I see people a week later that were screaming they'll "quit the game" over a glitch being fixed.

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

Ah, I had no idea about that. Sorry, my noob is showing.

 

...Still gonna level it up to 30 though, even if it makes me cringe.

XD If I remember correctly it's attackspeed was LOWERED with the "buffs" and the fact that the other heavy weapons got much more of a dmg buff makes it outshined by pretty much all of them. (which is a shame, I love how the Magistar looks.)

I'm leaning towards "let's try it and see what happens". 

 

The best thing that can happen is the game starts rewarding skillful movement and navigation and allows folks to diversify melee weapons.  Only those who are too lazy to learn or actively want to skip as much of the game as possible would be negatively affected by this.

 

The worst thing that can happen is it can fail horribly; in which case the community uproar will be so loud that the response will be an overly swift kneejerk that will go through multiple iterations before a harmony is found again.

 

We as players, provided that we are patient and do our due diligence in accurately and objectively reporting issues, stand to lose nothing here.

 

Edit: corrected some typographical errors.

Honestly, I agree with almost everything you say. BUT! I dont think Melee diversification will happen, not in a scale that makes it notable.

Look at it this way: people use copter weapons JUST for coptering. That's it. Remove those and they'll probably either use no Melee at all or use the regular meta-weapons like Dragon Nikana or Scindo Prime. What would make people use different types of melee more often would be a REAL look into melee stuff:  Buff some weapon types that need, rethink the melee combo counter, et cetera.

As it stands, I dont think neither WITH or WITHOUT copter would change much.

 

Gonna laugh when I see people a week later that were screaming they'll "quit the game" over a glitch being fixed.

Eh I feel like those are always fake threats in a pitiful attempt to attract attention. I mean, really, if u're quitting the game because DE is inventing something new that gives us some smooth, controlable ways to move around the tilesets that dont look like permanent glitches (which makes the game look bad, real bad) it can only mean that those who quit are people who hate change in an ever-changing world.

I mean, by all means people can voice their complaints, just don't do it in a way that make you seem like you're a poor victim being PUNISHED.

(aka: D; I am quitting the game if you dont do what I say!! )

Edited July 14, 2015 by (PS4)Dan_Aria

[Malikon]

Honestly, I agree with almost everything you say. BUT! I dont think Melee diversification will happen, not in a scale that makes it notable.

Look at it this way: people use copter weapons JUST for coptering. That's it. Remove those and they'll probably either use no Melee at all or use the regular meta-weapons like Dragon Nikana or Scindo Prime. What would make people use different types of melee more often would be a REAL look into melee stuff:  Buff some weapon types that need, rethink the melee combo counter, et cetera.

As it stands, I dont think neither WITH or WITHOUT copter would change much.

I see what you're saying and that is a decent point, but if people can't copter, then that opens up "no melee" or "meta-melee" options that are there but are less attractive currently due to speed "requirements"*.  

 

Having people with no melee weapon or with melee weapons that they would actually use to fight is already a diversification from how things currently are.

 

* I use the word requirement here spitefully, not because it is truly a requirement.

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

I see what you're saying and that is a decent point, but if people can't copter, then that opens up "no melee" or "meta-melee" options that are there but are less attractive currently due to speed "requirements"*.  

 

Having people with no melee weapon or with melee weapons that they would actually use to fight is already a diversification from how things currently are.

 

* I use the word requirement here spitefully, not because it is truly a requirement.

I agree, it would indeed remove the weapon-for-copter requirement, it would change things a bit, yeah. But still,I believe the change would be greater if coupled with a few revisionings/tweaks to melee. If anything, the removal of stamina is already a good thing.

I think DE should try to implement more melee-related stuff for the new parkour system, I see them showing us gunplay and all but what about the wall-melee and jump attacks, those could use some tweaking with the new system aswell.

[Ryjeon]

I'm leaning towards "let's try it and see what happens". 

 

The best thing that can happen is the game starts rewarding skillful movement and navigation and allows folks to diversify melee weapons.  Only those who are too lazy to learn or actively want to skip as much of the game as possible would be negatively affected by this.

 

The worst thing that can happen is it can fail horribly; in which case the community uproar will be so loud that the response will be an overly swift kneejerk that will go through multiple iterations before a harmony is found again.

 

We as players, provided that we are patient and do our due diligence in accurately and objectively reporting issues, stand to lose nothing here.

 

Edit: corrected some typographical errors.

 

I don't think it's fair to characterize people who have misgivings about the new system this way. I don't use Copter strictly as a travel power the way most people dismiss it. It's a vital and fun part of my melee combat maneuvers. And I value it because it's been satisfying learning new ways to incorporate it into new techniques. I hardly ever copter forward in a straight line anymore. I'm nearly always coptering sideways and chaining it into a wall-vault. Or I'm coptering backwards and then again into an arc to slice an enemy in the face with melee. Or I'm slide-flipping past an enemy and then arcing back into him. In short the current system enriches my gameplay and gives me something I enjoy honing and learning new techniques with.

 

So I do my best to illustrate what I value in the current system and why I've stayed personally invested in this game as long as I have. I do this in the hopes that my concerns will be addressed in future iterations and that the game can be recognizable as what I loved about it in the first place. Not because I want to skip content or don't want to learn anything.

 

To me the new system might be like replacing manually aiming and firing your gun with the mouse with an auto-target aiming system. Sure it would be easier and "better for controllers" but it would de-legitimatize the the aiming and gun techniques I honed the years playing it as a Third Person Shooter. I'm not crying Doom, or saying I definitely won't like the new setup. But I am saying that what I see concerns me and leaves me with misgivings. I don't think the new system will be as deep or as versatile as what we have now speaking as a melee player and enthusiast of the current system.  Like anyone I'll have to wait and see. But I would like my concerns accounted for in development so the game controls can continue to feel like an extension of myself.

 

I think the new techniques could be a great way to distinguish the mobility and character of the melee and gun stances. 

[Malikon]

I agree, it would indeed remove the weapon-for-copter requirement, it would change things a bit, yeah. But still,I believe the change would be greater if coupled with a few revisionings/tweaks to melee. If anything, the removal of stamina is already a good thing.

I think DE should try to implement more melee-related stuff for the new parkour system, I see them showing us gunplay and all but what about the wall-melee and jump attacks, those could use some tweaking with the new system aswell.

Do you mean like movement-specific melee attacks that give added effects?  Ex: doing the sliding front flip into a melee attack doing permanent armor reduction as a secondary effect, or sliding through enemies tripping them?

[Malikon]

-snip-

My statement can be a bit unfair if applied equally to all at all times.  Perhaps I should choose my words more wisely, or more strongly imply a condition to their application.  I do think that my assessment wasn't too far from the mark (or exactly on target) though for a noticeable portion of the playerbase, and folks like you are the outlier more than the standard.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Malikon

[Ryjeon]

My statement can be a bit unfair if applied equally to all at all times.  Perhaps I should choose my words more wisely, or more strongly imply a condition to their application.  I do think that my assessment wasn't too far from the mark (or exactly on target) though for a noticeable portion of the playerbase, and folks like you are the outlier more than the standard.

 

I think that particular characterization detracted from your overall tone which which was otherwise plenty reasonable and evenhanded. As I've been participating in the thread already I fell under the description as a voice dissenting to the changes as presented. I know I'm an outlier. Melee as a whole is dismissed by most players. But that's no reason to carelessly dispense with the techniques that support the playstyle. I'd be happy with the coptering being removed as a travel option but still usable as a quick horizontal slash. Even just to quickly switch from in front to behind an enemy while doing damage. Attacks have doubled as movement-extending effects for ages in gaming. It's not unusual for techniques to do double duty this way. It's one way to get more agency out of button presses. Flickering around an enemy keeps them off balanced and fits the agile fighter mold.

 

If "bullet-jump" into slide attack is as responsive and satisfying in an acrobatic melee style and works as a safe gap closer I'll be happy. But if it feels stiff and plastic I'm going to feel like something was lost.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Ryjeon

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

Do you mean like movement-specific melee attacks that give added effects?  Ex: doing the sliding front flip into a melee attack doing permanent armor reduction as a secondary effect, or sliding through enemies tripping them?

Well currently we have a different melee-attack-type that is used while we're wallrunning, assuming they're makin wallrun smoother and easier to control the same needs to be done about wall-melee.

But it could use an additive bonus to make said feats worth it. Jump attacks could also get some sort of buff from using.. say: Bullet Jump>Ground slam or something.

However it is done, I'm bad for IDEAS, we see the Aimgliding for Primaries and secondaries, they could get Melee some sort of tweaking to go along with the usage of Parkour 2.0.

[Ceryk]

The new system utilizes things people normally do as it is but makes that even easier to pull off than it is now since BulletJump eliminates the slide portion of the slide jump we use to mitigate stamina drain while sprinting (which we won't need to do anymore anyway), which benefits those of us that don't copter. Eliminating coptering and directional melee movement also allows the devs to make spin attack and air melee momentum more manageable to actually be used for melee instead of throwing you so far beyond your target that you may as well have not bothered in the first place.

So Death to Coptering. All Hail BulletJump!

Edited July 14, 2015 by Ceryk

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

 but still usable as a quick horizontal slash. Even just to quickly switch from in front to behind an enemy while doing damage. Attacks have doubled as movement-extending effects for ages in gaming. It's not unusual for techniques to do double duty this way. It's one way to get more agency out of button presses. Flickering around an enemy keeps them off balanced and fits the agile fighter mold.

 

If "bullet-jump" into slide attack is as responsive and satisfying in an acrobatic melee style and works as a safe gap closer I'll be happy. But if it feels stiff and plastic I'm going to feel like something was lost.

^ Exactly, since they are removing coptering, I believe they could come up with additional stuff for Parkour 2.0 in Melee usage, something that, maybe, only works when u're with your melee equipped (not quick slashing while using primary).

 

They are adding a lot of new maneuvers which look awesome in my honest opinion, they could also work on creating melee-only maneuvers to make melee more worth it when things get to the point where you begin takin quite a lot of damage.

Without stamina I'm assuming we can block as long as we want, but that leaves our backs open AND leaves us open to get hit while we're attacking, it would be nice if they gave us means to counter these openings we leave for the enemies to attack us with additional maneuvers to melee, something that would reward skillful usage of aforementioned maneuvers.

Edited July 14, 2015 by (PS4)Dan_Aria

[Ceryk]

^ Exactly, since they are removing coptering, I believe they could come up with additional stuff for Parkour 2.0 in Melee usage, something that, maybe, only works when u're with your melee equipped (not quick slashing while using primary).

 

They are adding a lot of new maneuvers which look awesome in my honest opinion, they could also work on creating melee-only maneuvers to make melee more worth it when things get to the point where you begin takin quite a lot of damage.

Without stamina I'm assuming we can block as long as we want, but that leaves our backs open AND leaves us upen to get hit while we're attacking, it would be nice if they gave us means to counter these openings we leave for the enemies to attack us with additional maneuvers to melee, something that would reward skillful usage of aforementioned maneuvers.

I don't think that should have anything to do with Parkour 2.0. That needs to be part of Melee 3.0 where they they make all weapons viable rather than only Crit weapons being viable.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Ceryk

[Ryjeon]

^ Exactly, since they are removing coptering, I believe they could come up with additional stuff for Parkour 2.0 in Melee usage, something that, maybe, only works when u're with your melee equipped (not quick slashing while using primary).

 

They are adding a lot of new maneuvers which look awesome in my honest opinion, they could also work on creating melee-only maneuvers to make melee more worth it when things get to the point where you begin takin quite a lot of damage.

Without stamina I'm assuming we can block as long as we want, but that leaves our backs open AND leaves us upen to get hit while we're attacking, it would be nice if they gave us means to counter these openings we leave for the enemies to attack us with additional maneuvers to melee, something that would reward skillful usage of aforementioned maneuvers.

 

That's what it looks like to me. They're coming up with so much stuff to supersede the old manuevers and re-integrate into people's play. But they may have to go back and consider it from a melee perspective afterwards and give melee stance more love after bricking the melee-based movement techniques.

[Malikon]

-snip-

Dismissing melee is a failure of a player to determine the value of a rounded set of abilities.  That sort of offhanded dismissal will diminish the player's capability overall, and they're the ones who will (eventually) suffer for it.

 

That being said, I see what you are say and I am ok with differing types of melee attacks in differing mobility situations.  I can most certainly see the value of a midair slide attack performing a quick horizontal slash.    I can also see and know the value of directional melee being of use as both an attack and mobility enhancer.   And you are correct, as a "space ninja" we should be aspiring to be agile mobile fighters and not brawlers.  I just feel that the current methods of melee assisted movement are too effective in some ways (hence copter weapons), and not effective enough in others (non-copter weapons).  That difference in effectiveness, I think, negatively impacts what melee and mobility could both be.

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

I don't think that should have anything to do with Parkour 2.0. That needs to be part of Melee 3.0 where they they make all weapons viable rather than only Crit weapons being viable.

To be fair, we are talking about additional maneuvers to melee that could be included in Parkour 2.0, even if only as an introduction to a Melee 3.0 system of sorts.

Also: u're speaking of stats and mechanics, I'm talking about actually having different parkour maneuvers that feel best suited for melee play and countering weaknesses and openings thru skillful usage.

[Ryjeon]

Dismissing melee is a failure of a player to determine the value of a rounded set of abilities.  That sort of offhanded dismissal will diminish the player's capability overall, and they're the ones who will (eventually) suffer for it.

 

That being said, I see what you are say and I am ok with differing types of melee attacks in differing mobility situations.  I can most certainly see the value of a midair slide attack performing a quick horizontal slash.    I can also see and know the value of directional melee being of use as both an attack and mobility enhancer.   And you are correct, as a "space ninja" we should be aspiring to be agile mobile fighters and not brawlers.  I just feel that the current methods of melee assisted movement are too effective in some ways (hence copter weapons), and not effective enough in others (non-copter weapons).  That difference in effectiveness, I think, negatively impacts what melee and mobility could both be.

 

I feel this too. I'm actually really excited for what the new maneuvers open up for aerial gunplay, and for players looking for new mobility alternatives. And I actually find the upper range of coptering too unwieldy and unnecessarily long-range. The long-range of it is what detracts from people understanding it as a melee-range dash and not just a travel ability. The new Wall-jump looks great as a travel ability. I'd just like to see slide-slash and aerial melee retain functionality, while also seeing the parkour expanded upon with the new techniques. This way coptering can be re-focused as a quick short-range more surgical technique. I'm pretty much hoping to salvage the arcing and scything gameplay slide-attacks enable and which are suggested by the design of Kronen and Boltace.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Snake]

Wow thanks for all the comments on this thread - A lot of really great discussion. This is definitely helping me feel more confident in the changes to come. :)

[(PSN)Dan_Aria]

I'd just like to see slide-slash and aerial melee retain functionality, while also seeing the parkour expanded upon with the new techniques. This way coptering can be re-focused as a quick short-range more surgical technique.

^ this.

I feel like they could make different types of Parkour maneuvers for when in melee stance, since you've switched your offensive and defensive approach to battle the way you maneuver should too.

With that said: they could add further tweaks and changes to aerial melee (aka, not primarily an OP mobility tool but something to benefit your Melee reach even for flying targets)  and make it usable while in Melee stance + add maneuvers that benefit the way u approach enemies in melee (mobility tools for melee).

 

------

That could also come with boosts to melee based on your movement:

for instance:

Let's say they create some sort of dashing mobility asset for melee: since this is an offensive maneuver primarily used for closing the gap between you and your target, it could give you an attack boost since you've shifted to an offensive approach.

Let's also say that they change the ROLL in melee, make it more dynamic and used as a dodge feature: further lower enemy accuracy while in the animation and maybe give a minor speed buff since you've shifted to a defensive/Evasive approach.

(Don't judge, I'm crap for ideas so I'm just rambling about... or u can judge `-` doesn't matter.)

Edited July 14, 2015 by (PS4)Dan_Aria