My Issue With The Void Trader Fiasco...

[Hypernaut1]

Its sad when it seems like some people would be HAPPIER without the Baro, instead of looking at the Baro as a chance to get something cool every 2 weeks.

 

Personally, i only expect him to have a killer game changing item only a few times a year. We got the prisma skana a while ago- i dont expect much from him until next season.

[pauli133]

The most probable scenario was DE forgot to make something new (or was busy with U17 and nerfing Hydroid) and had to scrap by the stuff they had previously and a random S#&$ty gun (mastery fodder is nice).

There is essentially zero probability of DE "forgetting" to have content ready for a scheduled and publicized content drop. All three platforms got the same offerings as last time - this was a hiccup in the system. They kept us amused with some red text while they tracked down the issue, tested the fix, and implemented it. We got exactly what was planned, a couple hours late.

[FelisImpurrator]

 

*sigh* And yet again people miss the obvious problem and the obvious solution.

 

If DE fixes the grind without getting rid of all the blatantly broken ways the community uses to work around said grind, no one will stop doing it, because that's how people work. Then everyone will have Draco at twice the speed, all the players who spend their time in "efficient" farms will be maxed out in a week, and the forum will be flooded with rage threads about not having enough content.

 

And yet, if DE hammers down the cheese farming methods without fixing the grind, it drives people to find new ones. Constantly. So, you get this endless cycle of nerf/exploit/nerf/exploit/nerf/exploit, ad nauseam, until one side gives up. Community pushes? DE pushes back. Community pushes harder in response? DE pushes back harder. Something has to give eventually.

 

What I've been actually suggesting for months now is simple in concept, but presumably difficult to execute, because I'm sure they've thought of this by now despite not having done it: Do both at once. Shut down the "sit in one spot and shovel loot into your face with zero effort" methods while rebalancing the grind to give a fair, even, and reasonably brisk rate of progression across every playstyle and every game mode. Strike from two angles and solve both problems. Of course, they probably can't do it because they're horribly understaffed and expected to constantly release new content... because of course, if they take a break from content, the community will complain again.

 

In an ideal game state, the efficient method and the intended progression are not at odds, and in fact may be the same thing, because every method is more or less equally efficient - proportionally speaking; of course, there would be rewards for good teamwork and maximizing equipment composition. But the important difference is that the gap between a maxed-frame resource farm and a regular mission that takes the same amount of time would be far smaller. More than that, ideally, there would be no such thing as "maximum rewards for no effort" - rather, there would only be "more rewards for the same effort used in a more efficient way".

 

The current situation has two extremes - not enough/too slow rewards (ordinary progression) and too many/too fast rewards ("efficient farming"). What needs to be done is to buff the lowest extreme (the former) and nerf the highest (the latter) to hit a point that's somewhere between them. And at this point, I'm not sure DE has the capacity to work on both while STILL pumping out new content every other week.

[Rhodan]

And no - rabid farming techniques should always be tackled by the devs - much more mercilessly in my opinion. Just because gamers will always seek to find a way - does not mean you just sit back and let them ruin the longevity of the game. It's bad for business.

 

And here's the point I was trying to make; just because you don't agree with farming doesn't mean nobody else should be able to make use of it. Pilfering Swarm on Ophelia wouldn't exactly have ruined the longevity of the game, because remember? You choose how you play this game.

[FelisImpurrator]

And here's the point I was trying to make; just because you don't agree with farming doesn't mean nobody else should be able to make use of it. Pilfering Swarm on Ophelia wouldn't exactly have ruined the longevity of the game, because remember? You choose how you play this game.

It could have done what Greedy Mag was doing - created a toxic community mindset, an attitude of "you must have this frame and play this way to be accepted or find a proper game" - and yes, that was becoming a thing, which was readily apparent from simple observation. "Play how you want" stops working when people start shoving other playstyles out of the way and becoming the dominant majority (see also, usage of Pull being 4x that of every single other ability in the game).

 

I don't suppose you've read my response, either.

[Rhodan]

It could have done what Greedy Mag was doing - created a toxic community mindset, an attitude of "you must have this frame and play this way to be accepted or find a proper game" - and yes, that was becoming a thing, which was readily apparent from simple observation. "Play how you want" stops working when people start shoving other playstyles out of the way and becoming the dominant majority (see also, usage of Pull being 4x that of every single other ability in the game).

 

I don't suppose you've read my response, either.

I have, actually. However, we both know exactly how DE handles suggestions at this point. They don't. The fact you admit at the end that you pretty much know it won't happen doesn't exactly help either.

I can however agree with you on the fact that Gmag toxicity was at high levels, but that says alot more about the people playing than the game itself. Also, note that there's quite a difference between Gmag and Pilfering Hydroid. I haven't seen any toxic crap like there was around Gmag on recruiting channel, but that might just as well be because I try to avoid the larger part of region/trade/recruit chat to preserve my sanity. Hydroid was essentially just a Nekros with higher drop chances and CC that nobody really cared about for a while, not nearly as gamebreaking as Greedy Pull was.

 

What I can however completely disagree with you is that there is still a chance or way in which DE would in any way reduce grind. They have done absolutely nothing, rather the opposite, with the past updates. In fact, they have completely ignored the community's opinions concerning that very same subject and just pulled on through with their decisions without responding to any feedback on them whatsoever. ''We want to reduce grind''. There goes Viver. E-Gate. R5 cores nerf. Gmag. Pilfering Swarm. The hope for reduced grind crushed with Operation False Profit. Didn't get the Slash mods? Here's an event of 25-wave defense with a walking target that can randomly F*** your group over, with around 0,1% drop chance for any out of those four mods or this really rare sigil everybody wants, except we bet you guys will be happy with these craptonnes of detonite ampules, mutagen samples and fieldron samples that we have almost completely flooded these droptables with instead! Because you know, you could always just buy those slash mods off trade chat. For an amount of platinum worth enough to feed a family for a week.

 

At this point I'm not sure what'd happen sooner, DE actually reducing grind for once, or DE admitting that ''we want to reduce grind'' was a wish they completely failed to fullfill. And I'm very much leaning towards the latter.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Latravysas

[FelisImpurrator]

I have, actually. However, we both know exactly how DE handles suggestions at this point. They don't. The fact you admit at the end that you pretty much know it won't happen doesn't exactly help either.

Unlike you, I'm not completely consumed by cynicism. What I outlined was that their hands, in some capacity, are tied by the current situation, not that they "simply don't want" to reduce grind. I described the ways it could go, based on how this community works and reacts to DE's actions.

 

As for not taking suggestions whatsoever? Confirmation bias, pure and simple. They don't take suggestions regarding the cheesiest ways to farm, particularly, because what the community generally seems to want is MORE POWER and MORE CHEESE and even less interaction, because it's "easier". By and large, the most vocal segments of the community appear to not know what the game actually needs, considering the threads they made this week - for example - were more often labeled "Please don't nerf Pilfering Swarm, it's his only good ability" than they were "Rework Hydroid, he needs to have more good abilities than Pilfering Swarm". Just as an example. Other posts regarding Mag? "RIP Mag", "Mag is useless without Greedy Pull", very little "This is what I think is wrong with Mag's kit outside of Greedy Pull". What do you expect, when the best threads on reducing grind get buried under the threads basically requesting band-aids for lazy people instead of the rework the game needs?

 

Hydroid was just a preemptive strike. Before it got to Draco/Gmag levels of poison. If a location is the single best place for loot by a huge margin, it will happen eventually; this is not a "maybe" statement, given people's track record.

 

As for suggestions actually taken... they implemented, for instance, the Juggernaut. They did so in a way its creator, SilverBones, was satisfied with - and what did other people do? Get angry about its in-game design on SilverBones' behalf. This should illustrate how the Warframe forums generally react to change.

 

Also, they are working on Starchart 3.0, which people keep judging before actually seeing. This is quite possibly the lead-up to the actual initiative to change the system - at this point, considering we are not privy to DE's internal decision-making in this respect (despite the fact that I've talked to devs, and found them by and large very receptive to player input), it's also entirely possible that their approach is to break all of the community's cheapest tactics one by one, get to the bottom, and rebuild from the scattered remains of Gmag, Pilfdroid, Desekros, Peacemesa... tear it all down, and start anew with what is presumably U18. At that point, I would honestly be satisfied, even if I disagree with the method.

[Rhodan]

 

Unlike you, I'm not completely consumed by cynicism. 

 

Spend time and effort farming and browse these forums, it helps.

 

 

As for suggestions actually taken... they implemented, for instance, the Juggernaut. They did so in a way its creator, SilverBones, was satisfied with - and what did other people do? Get angry about its in-game design on SilverBones' behalf. This should illustrate how the Warframe forums generally react to change.

 

There is a great difference between suggestions on how to rework core systems that essentially define the game such as effort->reward, and player fan concepts. 

 

Also, ''tearing down'' Desecrate Nekros and Peacemaker Mesa is going to piss off alot more people than it would please. These abilities have pretty much come to define their frames. If Nekros can't Desecrate I doubt many people would use him at all as it's pretty much his only real desired niche. If Mesa can't tote guns and shoot everything blindly, then what's the point of making her a blindfolded badass gunslinger protected by a double wall of RNG?

As much as I understand you just want the grind in this game to change for the better, we all do, I don't have much hope until DE shows signs of being truly able to do it. Maybe then I'll stop being so cynical, rightfully so.

[FelisImpurrator]

Spend time and effort farming and browse these forums, it helps.

I did. 1.4k hours in, and nearly 1.7k posts. My view remains unchanged, because I trust my own observations far more than I could possibly trust this place's endless parade of salt shakers.

 

Also - if you'll take a good long look at what the community asks for? Much of it involves More Power in a world state where the very last thing we need is More Power - or things like "Don't nerf my stationary loot bots". There are good threads with good suggestions, but they get buried under these. On top of that, a lot of suggestions fail to take into account both sides of the balancing equation - nerf the cheese while buffing other methods, or the whole thing collapses. Hence the current divide between the "nerf brigade" and the people who refuse to even consider the word "nerf" as something that should ever happen. Me? I sit in the middle and get attacked, constantly, by both. Not that it stops me.

 

Also - if a cheesy, uninteractive ability (Greedy Pull, Desecrate, Peacemaker, Miasma), or one that has no purpose other than to smack RNG in the face with a wet noodle because normal RNG is just that bad (Pilfering Swarm), has come to "define" a warframe, then it's obvious that those abilities - or the warframes themselves - are in dire need of a rework. This is what I think people fail to take into account. Again - instead of saying "Don't take it away, it's their only useful ability" - why not spend the same effort making those threads to say "Rework the other abilities to be viable, and replace this ability with a better one"? That's what Hydroid needs. That's what Nekros needs. Saryn, most certainly. Mesa to some extent - her 4 just needs to be more interesting and less of a static aimbot and her kit is solid bar some QoL on Ballistic Battery. Mag is mostly fine but needs QoL.

 

In other words? I built Nekros and Mesa so I could be a badass, not so I could sit there playing Cookie Clicker. I want Desecrate, Peacemaker, and Miasma to stop existing as they are now. I also want those abilities replaced with better things, and other parts of kit overhauled where necessary. Now if the community actually showed just as much interest in such things as they did in "plz don't nerf my automated loot machine", maybe we would have them already.

 

I'm not basing this on "hope". I'm simply refraining from drawing a conclusion based on incomplete evidence. I don't "believe" anything other than the simple fact that without internal access to DE's decisions, there is no way to objectively determine what they'll do next.

Edited August 9, 2015 by FelisImpurrator

[Wotca]

Didn't think for a second that redtext was serious about taking suggestions.  I'm not sure how anyone could have taken it at face value.  How would they process the literal crapstorm of responses that would obviously follow.  Yet another post complaining about nothing.

[Rhodan]

 I built Nekros and Mesa so I could be a badass, not so I could sit there playing Cookie Clicker. I want Desecrate, Peacemaker, and Miasma to stop existing as they are now. I also want those abilities replaced with better things, and other parts of kit overhauled where necessary. Now if the community actually showed just as much interest in such things as they did in "plz don't nerf my automated loot machine", maybe we would have them already.

You see, this I can finally fully goshdarn agree with. I don't care for farming over engaging gameplay. If DE just didn't make the grind less hard, a detail that should not be forgotten, AND made ults such as Peacemaker more actually thought provoking and fun [add a frigging Guitar Hero style minigame for all I care! I'd play the S#&$ out of that], I would smile alot more if asked to play Mesa. Because you see, I do own her. And I in fact choose to play her as little as possible because while Peacemaker is absolutely awesome, it just doesn't feel right. The design is fine, but the system just feels so unfair, particularly because people just ask for a mesa so they can leech off the easy kills and easy exp that generates. She is by far one of if not my favourite female frame, but the way her ultimate has been executed just makes the community see her as a tool instead of a reliable frame, to a point where they even blatantly forget just how powerful Shatter Shield actually is, or ignore the benefits of a properly modded Shooting Gallery. 

I won't trivialize the importance of Desecrate as that is one of the few reliable ways to combat DE's ever-increasing grind we have left. What might be a better idea is to further revamp Nekros' abilities. The same goes for Saryn who is undeniably in need of a rework since all people use her for is Miasma nuking. Frames should be more than that. Frost's current state is a perfect example as his skills are perfectly versatile in terms of both damage and defense and they get the job done. Excalibur's Slash Dash is an effective panic button/dodge, Radial Blind has amazing synergy with almost everything else including Exalted Blade, and Radial Javelin is an extremely effective rapid crowd damager. Even Loki, a frame whose abilities do not at all focus on doing damage through power, has abilities that all complement either eachother or team play. Mesa's general moveset is fine, but Peacemaker needs a good stylish rework. Nekros' moveset might be in need of a rework if people want to break his desecrate-only usage.

 

TLDR; frames like ultimate galactic gunslinger Mesa, venom empress Saryn and undead puppet master Nekros should be badass. Their design is; their abilities partly are but could be greatly improved. On that, I heartfully agree with you.

 

PS, alternate helmet with their rework pls. I love the Mordred and I was so excited for a new Frost helmet with the rework but we never got one. :(

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

Read once more. i Didnt writed he bringed that. I WANT HIM TO BRING ME THAT AND IM HAPPY.

PEOPLE Start reading the posts with your brain. Im starting to being anoyed of Warframe Forum community. In game is very cool community and in Forum ugghhh god da*n.

Im starting to comparing this community to League Of Legends.

Arent you supposeed to read with your eyes?

[FelisImpurrator]

 

This, so much. I honestly wish DE would just take a month or two off before U18 and pour everything into a huge, sprawling rework that overhauls all progression. Yes, all of it. Affinity, Drops, Starchart 3.0. Saryn, Nekros, Mesa, etc 2.0. Tileset reworks on Intercepts, Defenses (make them more like Uranus Defense, for instance), everything. Sweep away the idea that "efficient farming" is the only way to progress at a reasonable pace. Make regular missions fun, rewarding, and reliable; leave the camps in, and the rushes in, but make them only just as efficient as any other playstyle, so "play how you want" is a REAL thing, either solo or in squads, minmaxed or playing with pure fun gear.

 

That's what I want. It's effectively a Warframe 2.0, but at this point, I'm increasingly convinced that's what we need. But I'm not entirely sure they're willing to do it... because they might be worried about even greater backlash from the community, which is so used to having loot handed to them by a turret and constantly clamoring for new content because said turret ensured they would burn through every update in days.

 

Oh, and yeah - I own Mesa, I reactored and 30'd her in a day or so, and now... she's just kind of gathering dust, because I'm fairly sure that playing her in a public squad with a duration or range build is the sort of thing that would get you hate from the people who like Peacemaker... and the people who hate Peacemaker and assume you're another AFKer. And while messing with people's heads can be fun, being obligated to mess with people's heads to play a frame isn't.

[Zeta44]

Well, if he would show up somewhere other than Pluto Then that would scratch one issue off my list......

[Sublimynal]

I honestly want more cosmetics with the void trader ( and not just things clad in "prima" ) not necessarily prime access pieces ( not necessarily not prime pieces ) but something out of the ordinary like maybe exclusively to the trader, but i'm probably alone in that opinion.. 

 

._.

[Genji]

You know what was hilarious? Prime Slip Magazine, that was Heavy Trauma to those who thought it was a joke coming back.

It materialized.