"throwing Knives Logic" Or "my Powecreep-Sence Tingling"

[derclaw]

Ok, Powercreep - is a term that means that at some stage of a game devs start to introduce game elements that make old elements obsolet.

 

So today's topic is - Kunai.

A humble throwing knives, that for magical reason ignore thik metall armor, can be throw at speed of sound, silent and have dmg-per throw equal to Kraken shot (but also ignores armor).

 

Ok, people were arguing that Bolto\AkBolto was king of sidearms.... well long live the King - seems like we have new King here.

Kunai are owerpowerd as hell. There is no reason to use anything else right now, except for some cosmetic\swag thing when peole just cant stand the look of Kunai. Even the fact that they have curved trajectory doesnt help - you throw them at such speed that you can easly adjust your aim, cause you dont need every shot to count.

 

Base dmg 45, its the base dmg of taping Paris. and you cant tap Paris shots as fast as you throw Kunai.

On top of that - standart pistols ammo pool. 210 knives, that can be brought to 400 with mods.

 

Devs imo - think of introducing diffeent ammo reserves as a balancing option, not only DPS or Crit chance. Yes kunay doesnt crit - but base dmg is so high and reload speed is so fast that you just dont give a damn about anything else and just stack dmg on top of dmg.

 

Make sub categories for sidearms in ammo types:

Throwing - 80 max ammo, but huge dmg and armor penetration.

Heavy pistols - 100-120 max ammo. Huge dmg, pin-point acuracy, slow fiering speed.

Medium pistols (Lato, Bolto, Sicarus) - 210 ammo. Semi auto, medium dmg with some tweaks.

Machine pistols - 400 ammo. Low dmg, huge fire rate, full auto, bullet hoags.

 

WIth this you can still keep the power of throwing knives, but people wont be able to use them as main source of dmg, unless they will run a Pistol Scav artifact.

 

Also make ammo pick-ups being something like 5-10% of max ammo.

That also will addres issue with machine pistols, when they need 2-3 ammo pick ups to get the same ammount dmg output where Lex will need like 1/2 of ammo pick up.

Edited May 25, 2013 by derclaw

[Anceto]

then say hello to its god then

 

despair - 55 damage (basically an upgraded kunai)

[derclaw]

then say hello to its god then

 

despair - 55 damage (basically an upgraded kunai)

Yes I know

For the sake of not making useless comments like that, assume that Despair=Kunai.

Despair being upgraded Kunai, just has the same issue and can be balanced exactly the same way.

Edited May 25, 2013 by derclaw

[MyXmaN]

I think the kunai is going to get nerfed pretty soon. These knives have perfect accuracy (compared to akbolto), high fire rate, viper-like reload time, armor ignore...

 

You suggestion is nice, but...

But i really think it will just be a plain nerf. Like -20 damage, accuracy halved.

We have seen it before - instead of some interesting tweaks, we are getting plain nerfs or plain buffs (remember the gorgon).

[Venarge]

I think the kunai is going to get nerfed pretty soon. These knives have perfect accuracy (compared to akbolto), high fire rate, viper-like reload time, armor ignore...

 

You suggestion is nice, but...

But i really think it will just be a plain nerf. Like -20 damage, accuracy halved.

We have seen it before - instead of some interesting tweaks, we are getting plain nerfs or plain buffs (remember the gorgon).

I would say yes to damage nerf, but no to accuracy nerf.

Id say 25-30 dmg

Edited May 25, 2013 by Venarge

[derclaw]

I would say yes to damage nerf, but no to accuracy nerf.

Id say 25-30 dmg

thats around 30-40% dmg nerf - people will go outrage mode on such drastic nerfes. Also that will be a sign that Devs have no idea about how to make a balanced weapon that is NOT a remodel\recolour of existing ones.

 

That why I suggest solution that will keep POWER of knives as is, but will make other sidearms not obsolet.

 

Also they have perfect acc cause they dont fly in staright line but rather in a curve - adding spread to the curved trajectory is not needed imo.

Edited May 25, 2013 by derclaw

[GuerillaGorilla]

my question is....why do you guys even care about nerfs or buffs? there's not really a pvp scene in this game so if there's an overpowered weapon it only helps us. This topic is just seems like complaining because the creator was probably using ak boltos and is mad that those aren't the top weapons now. nerf the weapons? pfft....makes no sense in a PVE game.

 

TO DEVS: thank you for the kunai. i am absolutely satisfied with them in there current state. no tweak required.

[_Chaser]

errr.. if you play stealthy and you can't kill enemy in one shot - whole your mission is failed. fire rate change will be rather logical. for example lex fire rate would not be gamebreaking for kunai

Edited May 25, 2013 by n7snk

[derclaw]

TO DEVS: thank you for the kunai. i am absolutely satisfied with them in there current state. no tweak required.

Thats why.

Kunai is broken, because everything else is inferior in every way. And if no tweaks to Kunai - then they will need to bring all other weapons to its lvl.

Because I am not satisfied with how Akbolto or Vipers or Lex work in comparison to Kunai, which means there is something wrong with that weapon.

[derclaw]

errr.. if you play stealthy and you can't kill enemy in one shot - whole your mission is failed. fire rate change will be rather logical. for example lex fire rate would not be gamebreaking for kunai

If you fail to stealth - whole mission just become normal mission. And Kunai is more then cappable of just crushing through any foes that will spawn in alarm.

Oneshoting with pistols - yolololol. Yes they could have made it something like Pistol-Paris. With charge attack that gains power, but leave tap dmg misserable. Instead they made it into full auto rapid throwing weapon. AND thats where high and armor piercing dmg is unjustified with given ammo pool.

 

Gosh people. Why you so eager to derail? My proposal was to introduce smaller ammo reserve for numericaly stronger weapons as balance measure, so devs wont need to expirience the ANOTHER outrage of now proud kunai lovers. because of nerf 

 

But what I see is a bunch of random kunai thoughts that are off-topic.

The whole idea that we now have "BEST WEAPON EVAR" is just wrong and I have no idea how devs gona fix it without causing huge mess or outrage. Kunai are design flaw, they work better then any other weapon, while having only one drawback of shooting not in straight line.

 

And even in PvE game - if one of the weapons outperforms others by huge margin - people will end using it 95% of time, excluding elitists or deviants. So yeah - for sake of diversity and future of the game - nerf needed here. I can use my Vipers and be out of ammo after two-three fights or use Kunai and kill every mob and a boss on the map and still be nearly full ammo at the end of mission. PvE game is so PvE.

 

And BTW I Have Kunai and Despair. Both potatoed. And I felt that those weapons need to be toned down somehow  after the very first mission with them, cause even unmodded they were outperforming any other sidearm (and not only sidearms). Adding mods only made it worse cause 2 free V polarity slots on top of everything else.

 

So yeah - I am definitely a cry-baby who mourns about my Akbolto no longer being best weapon.

 

AGAIN MY PROPOSAL IS:

Leave the power of kunai as it is(to avoid outrage).  Nerf ammo pool and ammo recovery of it (to promote precise usage rather then mindless spamming through 400 ammo max and to actually bring it in line).

Introduce system for weapons where even straight inferior in over all dmg or ammo efficiency weapon will be a valid option to use, cause of indirect bonuses like bigger ammo pool and more ammo recovery per ammo drop. That will also allow devs to introduce more unique weapons without need of making EVERYTHING sidegrade to each other.

Edited May 25, 2013 by derclaw

[Paradoxbomb]

although I absolutely love them as they are now, there's no doubt that they're way OP and need to be toned down somehow. Perhaps they should reduce the base damage but add a charge mode like the Pairs, that way they become less efficient during heavy gunfights, but can one-shot certain enemies during stealth missions. I also agree that they need to rework how ammo reserves and drops work.

[_Chaser]

if you reduce damage you make it useless and harmful for stealth. i see reasonable total ammo limitation and rate of fire. armor piercing lex that shoot through enemies while being silent - i like it.

[Mainabi]

honestly I don't understand the fuss, though I love the kunai, tbh it feels like the kraken is better on longrange it also handles better and faster than with the kunai,

 

especially against fast flying objects

[Anceto]

Thats why.

Kunai is broken, because everything else is inferior in every way. And if no tweaks to Kunai - then they will need to bring all other weapons to its lvl.

Because I am not satisfied with how Akbolto or Vipers or Lex work in comparison to Kunai, which means there is something wrong with that weapon.

 

but if you make everything more or less the same, then why bother use anything at all ? Heck, might as well use Lato all the way and not care about the secondary slot at all, what the kunai lacks is long range accuracy because it falls off after a certain range and that's more than enough for it, while you can completely snipe with vipers without worrying any of those (if you shoot in  bursts it will definitely hit at long range, but even if you shoot kunai/despair in burst, it will still have the range fall-off)

Edited May 25, 2013 by Ferrick

[Mainabi]

but if you make everything more or less the same, then why bother use anything at all ? Heck, might as well use Lato all the way and not care about the secondary slot at all, what the kunai lacks is long range accuracy because it falls off after a certain range and that's more than enough for it, while you can completely snipe with vipers without worrying any of those (if you shoot in  bursts it will definitely hit at long range, but even if you shoot kunai/despair in burst, it will still have the range fall-off)

 

agree, the kunai for example CAN'T crit I think that's a downside big enough

[derclaw]

but if you make everything more or less the same, then why bother use anything at all ? Heck, might as well use Lato all the way and not care about the secondary slot at all, what the kunai lacks is long range accuracy because it falls off after a certain range and that's more than enough for it, while you can completely snipe with vipers without worrying any of those (if you shoot in  bursts it will definitely hit at long range, but even if you shoot kunai/despair in burst, it will still have the range fall-off)

You cant snipe with Vipers - at long range you can random headshot trash mobs by burning through ammo. Even if you can - its hardly effective.

Pro-sniping in huge rooms with Kunai doesnt work, what a big flaw, oh my. They are silent, so they have range issues - same logic as Paris. 

But from mid to close range Kunai are unbeatable in dmg and in overall functionality. Damn they even make Paris obsolet except for rare instances of silent headshoting, cause they beat Paris tap-spamming any day.

 

agree, the kunai for example CAN'T crit I think that's a downside big enough

 

Cant crit argument doesnt work here, since base dmg is over the top and so you can just keep staking dmg over dmg for same or better result.

Grakata can CRIT alot, but overall low dmg makes that weapon frustrating to use, better to just go with Gorgon if you need machinegun.

Edited May 25, 2013 by derclaw

[fauxhb]

i could maybe agree on fire rate nerf. not cutting the dmg in half, that would be downright stupid.

[Mainabi]

You cant snipe with Vipers - at long range you can random headshot trash mobs by burning through ammo. Even if you can - its hardly effective.

Pro-sniping in huge rooms with Kunai doesnt work, what a big flaw, oh my. They are silent, so they have range issues - same logic as Paris. 

But from mid to close range Kunai are unbeatable in dmg and in overall functionality. Damn they even make Paris obsolet except for rare instances of silent headshoting, cause they beat Paris tap-spamming any day.

 

 

Cant crit argument doesnt work here, since base dmg is over the top and so you can just keep staking dmg over dmg for same or better result.

Grakata can CRIT alot, but overall low dmg makes that weapon frustrating to use, better to just go with Gorgon if you need machinegun.

if you compare something with anything else use every point

 

but it looks like you compare it like this:

xbox 360 has less exclusive titles than ps3

so the 360 sucks

 

now you're even talking about the grakata,

the snipetron has a super high critchance, and it can easily crit up to 4.5k dmg per shot

 

the kunai aren't overpowered some other weapons just need a little bit tweaking in the critchance rates that's all

 

and about armorpen, who cares about armorpen against grineer if you can headshot with the kraken pretty easily? and more accurate? and even faster? I'm not talking about  360° snipes but turning ina  90° angle and headshot someone who's 20m far away is 100x easier with the kraken,

 

the ammo efficiency is exact the same as the kraken.

Edited May 27, 2013 by SeiraSunmin

[Anceto]

You cant snipe with Vipers - at long range you can random headshot trash mobs by burning through ammo. Even if you can - its hardly effective.

Pro-sniping in huge rooms with Kunai doesnt work, what a big flaw, oh my. They are silent, so they have range issues - same logic as Paris. 

But from mid to close range Kunai are unbeatable in dmg and in overall functionality. Damn they even make Paris obsolet except for rare instances of silent headshoting, cause they beat Paris tap-spamming any day.

 

 

Cant crit argument doesnt work here, since base dmg is over the top and so you can just keep staking dmg over dmg for same or better result.

Grakata can CRIT alot, but overall low dmg makes that weapon frustrating to use, better to just go with Gorgon if you need machinegun.

 

you'd be surprised on how accurate some bullet vomitters can go when you shoot in small bursts... and the problem with kunais is that their long range effectiveness isn't that good, but that's why we have dread/paris, they don't have range issues, and even if they do, can't you just estimate on where will it fall ? I mean its a pretty stupid thing to say that bows have range problems when you can just simply compensate by estimating the trajectory path, for the most part it won't veer off path on the X plane of the XYZ Plane theorem, and from what i see, i don't think kunais benefit from critical points like head shots, also once paris/dread is equipped with thunderbolt mod, it can clear out mobs pretty easily

 

@second sentence, why on earth are you comparing between a sub weapon with main weapon ?

[Mainabi]

you'd be surprised on how accurate some bullet vomitters can go when you shoot in small bursts... and the problem with kunais is that their long range effectiveness isn't that good, but that's why we have dread/paris, they don't have range issues, and even if they do, can't you just estimate on where will it fall ? I mean its a pretty stupid thing to say that bows have range problems when you can just simply compensate by estimating the trajectory path, for the most part it won't veer off path on the X plane of the XYZ Plane theorem, and from what i see, i don't think kunais benefit from critical points like head shots, also once paris/dread is equipped with thunderbolt mod, it can clear out mobs pretty easily

 

@second sentence, why on earth are you comparing between a sub weapon with main weapon ?

and yup a single viper is extremly accurate do 2shot bursts and it's as accurate as a lex

[lautalocos]

my question is....why do you guys even care about nerfs or buffs? there's not really a pvp scene in this game so if there's an overpowered weapon it only helps us. This topic is just seems like complaining because the creator was probably using ak boltos and is mad that those aren't the top weapons now. nerf the weapons? pfft....makes no sense in a PVE game.

 

TO DEVS: thank you for the kunai. i am absolutely satisfied with them in there current state. no tweak required.

but if a weapon is overpowered then there is no reason to have any other weapon, just the best.

[GuerillaGorilla]

but if a weapon is overpowered then there is no reason to have any other weapon, just the best.

Not my problem. I honestly don't care what weapon i use to kill hordes of NPC enemies. you're arguement seems to be: don't make weapons that are powerful so everyone won't feel compelled to only use those weapons.

 

you said there's NO reason to use anyother weapon? i can think of several: you don't like how the kunais look, you don't use pistol weapons, you already have the weapons that you want and couldn't care less about new ones, you're an elitist and want more or a challenge so you don't use anything other than melee.....etc...etc....there's some reasons for you.

 

you're all making the assumption that every single person is going to use the kunais because they are powerful. the freaking boltor is pretty much the same thing. there's "no reason" to use any other rifle because it's so powerful.

 

Don't use them if you think they are OP. then you can call everyone else noob for using the easy mode weapon. hey there's another reason not to use them! :)

[Mainabi]

but if a weapon is overpowered then there is no reason to have any other weapon, just the best.

 

it's not overpowered

 

why another weapon?

- handling/feel

- accuracy

- looks

- ideal builds (short main long secondary)

 

nobody says you have to use the kunai, nobody forces you to use any weapons if you like the mk1 braton you can also use that all the time, nobody stops you,

 

so a weapon is in some stuff strong

then what? it's not like you're competing with other people, it's a pve, where who deals the most dmg doesn't apply.

and don't forget if you can aim well you outperform the kunai with a kraken

 

whatever

 

the kunai is the best allround weapon against grineer, (if you can aim with the kraken, you can do the same dmg or even more)

the kraken does better than the kunai against corpus, also a single bronco does better than a kunai, the bronco is even more ammo efficient it deals more than 200% dmg of the kunai and it has a 1s base reload time

 

op op nerf?

 

the bronco is also better than the kunai if you use them against infested.

 

just because your favourite weapon doesn't shine in EVERY aspect anymore doesn't mean that a specialized weapon is op

Edited May 25, 2013 by SeiraSunmin

[holdenagincourt]

You can usually tell when something is authentically overpowered by the intensity with which people reject any suggestion that it is in fact overpowered.

Weapons that aren't very good tend to have few partisans.

[Guest]

People asking to nerf the damage are insane. The damage isn't the problem, it's the throwing speed. You can throw ten of the things out in practically a second or two. Lower the throwing rate and drop the amount you can have total so players don't spam them and they're fixed. Make them precision stealth tools that can't be wasted.

 

If you lower the damage, they're not going to be able to instant stealth kill which is their purpose. What good is a stealth tool that alerts everybody because it just tickles the enemy you throw it at?