"throwing Knives Logic" Or "my Powecreep-Sence Tingling"

[derclaw]

Just so you know, I've started two missions with 210 ammo(base) and finished with 78 or so each time. Thats after making sure I grab all the pistol ammo boxes in that level. So, just leave it alone for now, you can always change it later OR try using some of the new Dojo weapons. Or are you too whiny to be part of a clan?

I like how people go with insulting each other because they disagree with opinion. Nice comunity we have.

[CelsiusPrime]

no. watch closely again. he turn WHEN you throw, what means that it's not silent.

 

if it was silent and he turned on his own(he didn't) and noticed the body he would go cautious state from that distance instead of attacking straight away.

 

you should know that if you ever played stealthy

 

normaly they walk to the door

 

still think you're wrong.

 

Things wrong:

 

1: I find the video inconclusive as to if he reached the end of his route or if he heard you.

 

2: if he didn't hear you, what's to say he didn't see you first instead of the body, there by passing the "caution" state.

[CelsiusPrime]

I like how people go with insulting each other because they disagree with opinion. Nice comunity we have.

 

sorry. it's late but I edited it for you.

[lZerul]

Personally, I feel the clip size for the Kunai need to be nerfed more then anything. The damage as it is would be fine if you weren't throwing 10 (or more with mods) down range instantly.

 

I'd also considering not making it automatic, and make it a click-per kunai thrown, as opposed to hold down the mouse and annihilate a hallway full of enemies.

[_Chaser]

still think you're wrong.

 

Things wrong:

 

1: I find the video inconclusive as to if he reached the end of his route or if he heard you.

 

2: if he didn't hear you, what's to say he didn't see you first instead of the body, there by passing the "caution" state.

he didn't reach the end.

 

get kunai and do it yourself if you don't belive what you see in video

 

and then compare to paris

 

or pause on 0:04 and listen. grineer get in cautius state while kunai is in flight and another grineer start to turn

Edited May 26, 2013 by n7snk

[ssxtriki]

i think i saw it all... i played alot of mmos and i think its first time i see ppl crying over what they seem to be OP weapon in PVE,  tell me atleast ONE game PVE that has more or less not a Better weapon, item or skill thats better than others... srsly i dare you say atleast one game.

 

and btw its not like Kunai kills everything in one hit from any range.

 

dont use it if you dont like it jeez... like some guy sed you can kill everything with your main weapon boltor or hek and dont give a crap about second weapon or even close range weapon

 

srsly this thread should be closed, useless arguing.

[Notso]

i think i saw it all... i played alot of mmos and i think its first time i see ppl crying over what they seem to be OP weapon in PVE,  tell me atleast ONE game PVE that has more or less not a Better weapon, item or skill thats better than others... srsly i dare you say atleast one game.

 

and btw its not like Kunai kills everything in one hit from any range.

 

dont use it if you dont like it jeez... like some guy sed you can kill everything with your main weapon boltor or hek and dont give a crap about second weapon or even close range weapon

 

srsly this thread should be closed, useless arguing.

 

Let me guess, you're a Kunai/Despair user?

[ssxtriki]

Let me guess, you're a Kunai/Despair user?

 

ofc i have them i like new stuff i always buy/make them to try them out and i have arkbolto and vipers so whats your point?

[krisp]

Interesting proposal: reduce the accuracy by a lot and introduce a 1-2 second charge-up move in which you take the time to "aim" the weapon. Instead of a damage increase, you get an accuracy increase depending when you let go. Letting go at the end of the charge gives you maximum accuracy. Doesn't break stealth use, puts it on par with other weapons, and make sense from a realistic standpoint: if you're throwing knives around like crazy, you're not gonna have pinpoint accuracy.

 

 

Not my problem. I honestly don't care what weapon i use to kill hordes of NPC enemies. you're arguement seems to be: don't make weapons that are powerful so everyone won't feel compelled to only use those weapons.

 

you said there's NO reason to use anyother weapon? i can think of several: you don't like how the kunais look, you don't use pistol weapons, you already have the weapons that you want and couldn't care less about new ones, you're an elitist and want more or a challenge so you don't use anything other than melee.....etc...etc....there's some reasons for you.

 

you're all making the assumption that every single person is going to use the kunais because they are powerful. the freaking boltor is pretty much the same thing. there's "no reason" to use any other rifle because it's so powerful.

 

Don't use them if you think they are OP. then you can call everyone else noob for using the easy mode weapon. hey there's another reason not to use them! :)

 

 

The existence of straight-up more powerful weapons hurts the game by making all the other weapons inferior choices by comparison. A well-designed game has meaningful decisions on which weapon to use, and changing dynamics from weapon to weapon. Choosing between a clearly inferior or superior weapon is not a meaningful decision, and it imbalances the game as a direct result. We don't really care if it's not *your* problem, or if *you* don't care. It's the game's problem, and we care.

[Mr.Kazimir]

I like the idea of adjusting ammo pools for weapons, I have always felt that Afuris or Twin vipers simply aren`t viable because of their ammo inefficiency. Why use them when you can use a lex or akbolto that use that 200 ammo more effectively? The current ammo balance just doesn`t work. 

 

I`ve been using the Kunai for a second day and they are insanely OP. They`re spamable because of their high rate of fire and they do more damage than pretty much any weapon in the game AND they ignore armor. I really like them but as I said before, we need adjusted ammo pools for weapons so the Kunai can remain awesome(perhaps with some nerfing) while not being the best there ever was. 

 

I really hope DE reads this thread and bring some adjustments in the next hotfix, all weapons should be viable, there shouldn`t be one weapons that rules them all. 

 

 

 

 

[Argoms]

Personally, I feel the clip size for the Kunai need to be nerfed more then anything. The damage as it is would be fine if you weren't throwing 10 (or more with mods) down range instantly.

 

I'd also considering not making it automatic, and make it a click-per kunai thrown, as opposed to hold down the mouse and annihilate a hallway full of enemies.

Agreed with the first part, but there's no point in changing whether or not it's automatic. Macros are allowed, and spam clicking could achieve the same effect for people that refuse to use them.

[jsrama]

I'd put my two-cents worth in if I actually had Kunai :( But honestly, if the Kunai serve as the best weapon in the game bar-none then I'd agree that there should be a balance nerf (Not a complete nerf). I know it may be trashed as a bad idea, but would it make the weapon a little more balanced if the Kunai had a reduced range, so that it becomes a weapon that is preferrable for short-mid range combat? I mean, personally in my opinion the up-close and personal idea of stealth is a good one, after all the two most common forms of stealth are long-range and short-range, so why not nerf the kunai's effective distance (to provide relativity, I guess make it as useful long-range as the Gorgon, i.e. not that much)?

This way damage nerfs are not a problem, and the weapon can maintain its fire rate. I hope this helps in the consideration of nerfing this weapon, because I'd really like to get my hands on it, OP or not :)

[Argoms]

The problem then is that it still directly competes with boltos. Why would the loud (non-stealthy), more inaccurate projectile weapon be plain weaker than the stealthy one?

[Raijinmeister]

Ok, Powercreep - is a term that means that at some stage of a game devs start to introduce game elements that make old elements obsolet.

 

So today's topic is - Kunai.

A humble throwing knives, that for magical reason ignore thik metall armor, can be throw at speed of sound, silent and have dmg-per throw equal to Kraken shot (but also ignores armor).

 

Ok, people were arguing that Bolto\AkBolto was king of sidearms.... well long live the King - seems like we have new King here.

Kunai are owerpowerd as hell. There is no reason to use anything else right now, except for some cosmetic\swag thing when peole just cant stand the look of Kunai. Even the fact that they have curved trajectory doesnt help - you throw them at such speed that you can easly adjust your aim, cause you dont need every shot to count.

 

Base dmg 45, its the base dmg of taping Paris. and you cant tap Paris shots as fast as you throw Kunai.

On top of that - standart pistols ammo pool. 210 knives, that can be brought to 400 with mods.

 

Devs imo - think of introducing diffeent ammo reserves as a balancing option, not only DPS or Crit chance. Yes kunay doesnt crit - but base dmg is so high and reload speed is so fast that you just dont give a damn about anything else and just stack dmg on top of dmg.

 

Make sub categories for sidearms in ammo types:

Throwing - 80 max ammo, but huge dmg and armor penetration.

Heavy pistols - 100-120 max ammo. Huge dmg, pin-point acuracy, slow fiering speed.

Medium pistols (Lato, Bolto, Sicarus) - 210 ammo. Semi auto, medium dmg with some tweaks.

Machine pistols - 400 ammo. Low dmg, huge fire rate, full auto, bullet hoags.

 

WIth this you can still keep the power of throwing knives, but people wont be able to use them as main source of dmg, unless they will run a Pistol Scav artifact.

 

Also make ammo pick-ups being something like 5-10% of max ammo.

That also will addres issue with machine pistols, when they need 2-3 ammo pick ups to get the same ammount dmg output where Lex will need like 1/2 of ammo pick up.

This crap again?Nerf a sidearm that is pretty much a toy when you get to the higher lvls?Pfff...A SIDEARM!!!

[Argoms]

Erm, why are they toys when you get to higher levels? It's boltos with the damage of a kraken, fire rate of vipers, and stealth.

[_Chaser]

Erm, why are they toys when you get to higher levels? It's boltos with the damage of a kraken, fire rate of vipers, and stealth.

NOT STEALTHY AT ALL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtG0ch7bPqI

Edited May 26, 2013 by n7snk

[pixelsafoison]

Bring back the downvote button for loki's sake! 

[Ferriwind]

Erm, why are they toys when you get to higher levels? It's boltos with the damage of a kraken, fire rate of vipers, and stealth.

You are exaggerating.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Stygi

[IlIlllIO0pallaO0IlIlIlIl]

Hmm, I don't agree with machine pistols getting ammo boost though-throwing knives can be nerfed, but the auto pistols should not be boosted.

 

Vipers are very easy to use weapons that have one of the highest focused-all pallets can be headshotted- DPS. Their bottleneck is the monstrous ammo consumption. If they had double the ammo capacity, it would make Kraken and Sicarius look down right horrible-oh and bronco too.

 

Dual Broncos are also in the OP category, but in practice these throwing knives do much more damage: they are armor piercing, easy to head shot, much more longer range, can attack multiple, larger clip size, faster reload, OMG.

 

They added two polarity slots to the Stalker knives, TWO! What were you thinking DE? Instead of nerfing the base stats, I would prefer if DE would reduce the speed of these knives. Making them much harder to use: good old  days when I had to lead my shots on my spinfusors.

[Slifar]

Erm, why are they toys when you get to higher levels? It's boltos with the damage of a kraken, fire rate of vipers, and stealth.

 

I agree with Stygi, that's nowhere near an accurate description.

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

As someone who was looking forward to the Kunai, I can only echo what the OP said. These are way too powerful right now and definitely could use a nerf in terms of speed and accuracy to make them a bit more in line with the other weapons. As it is now, I'm at level 16 with them and they're essentially a "get of of jail" ticket whenever I get surrounded by anything 40+ in level on defense missions.

 

So yeah, I'm going to level these to max and them put them aside because apart from the boost to my mastery levels, these are far too OP to continue using without feeling like I'm cheating.

[Venarge]

thats around 30-40% dmg nerf - people will go outrage mode on such drastic nerfes. Also that will be a sign that Devs have no idea about how to make a balanced weapon that is NOT a remodel\recolour of existing ones.

 

That why I suggest solution that will keep POWER of knives as is, but will make other sidearms not obsolet.

 

Also they have perfect acc cause they dont fly in staright line but rather in a curve - adding spread to the curved trajectory is not needed imo.

I was just trying to get them close to the normal pistols ^^

But I guess that change would be too much, your right =)

Yep, acc is perfect as it is :D

[Venarge]

NOT STEALTHY AT ALL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtG0ch7bPqI

That just happend because the other guy turned around in the exact moment you threw the kunai.....

[_Chaser]

That just happend because the other guy turned around in the exact moment you threw the kunai.....

no. i can make DOZENS of examples like that.

 

if enemy turn and see body he go to cautious state. he don't run to kill imidiatly. pause on 0:04 or get kunai and try yourself. kunai is NOT silent. it's as loud as lex.

Edited May 26, 2013 by n7snk

[CelsiusPrime]

no. i can make DOZENS of examples like that.

 

if enemy turn and see body he go to cautious state. he don't run to kill imidiatly. pause on 0:04 or get kunai and try yourself. kunai is NOT silent. it's as loud as lex.

 

ok, so you've made your point by posting the same video 6 times in the same thread, (because you can?)  but I think the main request is a accuracy, and damage nerf not a stealth argument.

 

also, is that video with the most recent hotfix?