The Gorgon ruins this game.

[UkyoSonoda]

TBH I think a majority of this came from there being so few weapons added to your choices at player rank 2. If they had added 1-2 other rifles more in line in use with the rank 1 rifles with a better stat pool than the rank 1's people wouldnt be complaining over the gorgon being overpowered compared to other rifles because they would have probably did more damage per bullet with more accuracy at a longer range with a much smaller mag size.

IDK the whole issue to me just boils down to to feeling like the equivilent of someone complaining the lv 10 sword in a MMORPG someone is using does more damage than the lv 1 sword you started with.

Rather than nerf the extremely limited upper tier weapons we have access to add more options within that tier for people to upgrade into.

[Azure_Kytia]

Why? Disgaea made a game all about leveling characters up and it also gave you stronger character types as you "ranked up". This creates an interesting dynamic.

Well, it would if there were high-level equivalents of every other weapon. "Do I keep using this gun until I dead-end or do I get a better weapon and suffer from a loss of killing power for a few hours but plateau higher?"

That would be an interesting dynamic indeed, if once you ranked a weapon up to level 30, it could unlock a blueprint/market item to buy <weapon name> II/III/IV/V. Each upgrade could have a percentage increase in base stats over the base weapon. But, I digress, this is off-topic.

[Volume]

That would be an interesting dynamic indeed, if once you ranked a weapon up to level 30, it could unlock a blueprint/market item to buy <weapon name> II/III/IV/V. Each upgrade could have a percentage increase in base stats over the base weapon. But, I digress, this is off-topic.

please no prestiege

[Azure_Kytia]

Prestige? That's the one where the weapons start out exactly the same again and you have to unlock identical stuff, all over again. Right? Right?

Because that suggestion (Ripped Straight out of Disgaea, no less) was about improving your weapon, not starting back again at point 0. I'd be all for rebuilding a weapon to level 0 because compared to lower ranked weapons, they'd do more damage/faster RoF/Greater Clip Size/Faster Reload. It's like you're improving the foundations of it. But yeah. #opinions~

Edited January 20, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[johncage]

ironically, the gorgon is the only weapon that looks like it was designed for this game. anyone notice this? the other guns all lack the organic, smooth look of the gorgon. not to mention the gorgon's the only weapon whosecolor matches your armor.

[Sohberson]

ironically, the gorgon is the only weapon that looks like it was designed for this game. anyone notice this? the other guns all lack the organic, smooth look of the gorgon. not to mention the gorgon's the only weapon whosecolor matches your armor.

Yes, ironically is correct word. Gameplay wise "Warframe" at this moment is "run and gun" game and Gorgot fits this purpose better than other + makes you able to farm bosses more easy. That's it

[EclecticDragon]

ironically, the gorgon is the only weapon that looks like it was designed for this game. anyone notice this? the other guns all lack the organic, smooth look of the gorgon. not to mention the gorgon's the only weapon whosecolor matches your armor.

Well for the most part I think the reason all the weapons really look differn't then the Frames is becuase they were all make NOW rather then some odd centuries like the WarFrames were. that is why the swords look far more elegent/bazzar then the guns, execpt maybe the bolto and the Furis.

[MrWednesday]

The Gorgon doesn't do great damages, it has little ammo for a high ROF gun. On high or solo levels, ammo is ALWAYS a problem, I can barely make it through 2/3 of the match without being low on ammo. And mod slots are for damage increasing only, since the DMG of Gorgon is so freakin low.

I think the problem is the market doesn't offer much variety of play choice, you either go with low rof but high dmg gun - snipertron, a semi - latron or high rof, low dmg - gorgon.

And no, Gorgon is fine as it is right now, no nerf or balance in any form is needed. Just because you play snipertron, doesn't mean everybody must play snipertron to make the game "feel better"

[Expletive]

Weapons should be side grades in my opinion, especially when there are this few weapons in the game.

This. One Hundred Times This.

Also, you fools be posting in a troll thread.

[Eversor]

Most easy fix. Delete Gorgon and HEK from game... Balanced. lol

People complaining about gorgon seem not to have seen a godly HEK (multishot-AP mods) in action. Makes me laugh, THIS GUN is THE gamebreaker, hell i try not to use it to give people the chance to kill anything. You know , something is really wrong with guns here in warframe.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Eversor

[Caernarvon]

You cant nerf its shooting rate because it would ruin concept of minigun

You cant nerf its clip because you cant nefr its speed

You cant nerf its accuracy because its not an accurate weapon anyway

Only thing left is damage,Not sure if anybody would play 20.0 damage Gorgon though

You can nerf your agility when using the weapon.

Firing from the hip wouldn't be instant like it is for other weapons, and aiming would take a bit more time than it does on other guns.

Firing would make you much slower, and static when aiming.

Reloading would take longer, and force you to walk slower during the reload.

Those are changes which I think would force the Gorgon into a support role, as should be for an MG.

[Zenatsu]

TIL:

--OP only accepts those who are agreeing with him, and bashes those whom are agianst.

--OP said take out the 'semi-auto' and add a 'wind-up' when there already is a wind up. In fact the 'semi-auto' has the same spread as if it was shooting full auto. as well as, the wind up is just a slow steady increase of fire-rate.

--OP finds a group of gorgon users, and mocks at how easy things get mowed down. Same thing happens if you have a group of anything, pure lawnmowers. (2 sniper's can clear a room just as effectivly as 2 gorgons)

Gorgon OP? More like Warframe OP

hue hue

Edited January 20, 2013 by Zenatsu

[Kilikaji]

As i mentioned in the pseudo version of this topic, "Gorgon is useless after nerf", ive noticed that the majority(not all) of the players who keep claiming the gorgon is too weak now are the ones who havnt even leveled the gun past 10. It seems like when they nerfed it they focused much more on the early levels then the later levels. I hardly noticed any difference with my lvl 29 gorgon post nerf, it still kills armored/shielded enemies on pluto in less then 10 bullets, and just about anything else in 3-5.

--OP said take out the 'semi-auto' and add a 'wind-up' when there already is a wind up. In fact the 'semi-auto' has the same spread as if it was shooting full auto. as well as, the wind up is just a slow steady increase of fire-rate.

When we were talking about wind up we meant a period where it it isnt shooting at all, rather then now where it starts shooting and takes a while to reach max speed. The current "wind up" is a joke because everything is already dead before you even reach max speed.

[lamiadomina]

You can nerf your agility when using the weapon.

Firing from the hip wouldn't be instant like it is for other weapons, and aiming would take a bit more time than it does on other guns.

Firing would make you much slower, and static when aiming.

Reloading would take longer, and force you to walk slower during the reload.

Those are changes which I think would force the Gorgon into a support role, as should be for an MG.

I like all of these ideas -much- more than the people demanding that the weapon's ammo efficiency be nerfed too hard to even use it as a primary weapon anymore. The difficulty of consistently headshotting with this weapon already ensures that in practice it's much less ammo efficient than other rifles. Garaunteeing it runs dry if you don't main your sidearm instead is incredibly unreasonable... and still would not do a thing to address the issue with it shutting down boss fights.

I actually could condone dropping the weapon's base accuracy slightly. It definitely does suffer at extreme ranges, but at present it still seems accurate enough to function at the ranges that the majority of encounters are taking place at - most importantly, it's still very possible to engage with a Gorgon from outside the range where Grineer lancers or Corpus crewmen are accurate enough to pose a serious threat, and I think that's the really major breakpoint that defines a weapon as a long- or short-range weapon. The recoil at full auto can be kind of extreme - I wouldn't mind if the base accuracy was lower but the full auto accuracy a little bit higher.

I'm in agreement with several other posters that the issue with close-range weapons like the Gorgon and assorted shotguns probably has more to do at this point with level design issues - we're fighting in a lot of tight closed environments and powerful, close-range weapons are the tactic that naturally implies. I think a lot of the problem might also be that a lot of the difficulty scaling right now is based on giving enemies more HP instead of more offensive output. Coupled with the huge difference in defense between a level 1 and 30 warframe as well, the kind of close, aggressive tactics a HEK or Gorgon encourage just aren't as dangerous as they rightfully ought to be, so the tradeoff those weapons ought to be suffering starts to feel nonexistent - and at the same time, it becomes increasingly difficult for long-range weapons to actually pin down targets at long range as their DPS just becomes insufficient to control the waves being spawned (But I say this with the caveat that I am still working on levelling my Snipetron whereas my Gorgon is 30 with decent armor piercing mods, and if more experienced snipers say otherwise I'll defer to their opinions. It is getting easier for me). I've commented in another thread that it would be cool if difficulty scaling had less to do with HP scaling and more to do with more challenging enemy patterns, and I think that this is another problem that would answer very well.

Reducing the moving/non ADS accuracy on the Gorgon actually would be a pretty good start. I've thought it might also help to make the aiming on it just slightly sluggish - make the reticle follow the mouse a little awkwardly so that it lurches slightly if you try to make fine adjustments. Key it to about the point that it's forgettable at close range but becomes a meaningful disadvantage at longer ranges. Calibrated right I think it could do a lot to reduce the weapon's status as a sniper-machinegun without unfairly ruining its utility at medium-close range.

But seriously, trashing its ammo efficiency? This is a terrible idea from bad people who should feel bad.

Edited January 20, 2013 by lamiadomina

[Steuern]

@ OP "Is it OP or is it that it just doesn't have any competition?" That right there defines this whole game, and the relative strength of everything. There just simply is not enough content to make any -valid- claims of overpowered and underpowered. In my opinion. We just need to wait and see and enjoy the ride.

[eelektrik]

A lot of the reasons cited in this thread to claim its OP really are not an issue of balance, but an issue of the game being in beta and not fully itemized yet.

What other automatic rifles are there besides the Gorgon? The MK-1 Braton, Braton, and I guess the Burston. Thats it. First off we really don't need two different versions of the Braton that are only slightly different in the first place, so I would hope one of those would get removed in favor of something new and different. Most people would agree the Burston needs a buff. But comparing the Gorgon to the Braton makes no sense at all. The Braton is your starting weapon, Gorgon requires you to hit Rank 2 and purchase it. Of course its going to be better. Otherwise what is the incentive of ranking up and buying new weapons? Certain weapons are simply going to be better, particularly anything you purchase after playing a while versus anything you start with.

I think what everyone needs to do, is chill out, wait for more weapons to be added, and more guns that are comparable to the Gorgon in functionality get added before you start calling it OP.

[UkyoSonoda]

Actually the Mk1 Braton is your starting weapon and is pretty much outperformed in every way by the Braton. But if you notice the other weapons you get at the start are also pretty much outperformed in every way by the other pistols and melee weapons in the shop available at rank 1.

However yes the issue with people calling the gorgon un balanced or overpowered the issue is we are still early in this closed beta content wise and there really isn't anything to accurately compare it to as the shop structure hints player rank tier unlocks which in a dungeon crawl sense would imply weapons progressively scaling up as player rank requirement increases.

To those claiming all weapons should be side grades. That works fine when your game's enemies are not level based or when the game only utilizes PvP combat. This is a level based PvE dungeon crawl co-op style game though. The rank 1 guy that just started the game should not be just as strong or powerful as the rank 5 guy that has invested time and money into upgrading their gear.

[lamiadomina]

To those claiming all weapons should be side grades. That works fine when your game's enemies are not level based or when the game only utilizes PvP combat. This is a level based PvE dungeon crawl co-op style game though. The rank 1 guy that just started the game should not be just as strong or powerful as the rank 5 guy that has invested time and money into upgrading their gear.

Mods already provide scaling. There is no need for tiered upgrades to weapons as well, and building a game in that way will just tend to present any player of a given rank with only a very narrow subset of valid options. It's a lot of energy wasted creating extraneous clones of previous weapons with better stats that could have gone to creating a variety of weapons that support meaningfully different playstyles. Upgrading your damage by 10% to negate the enemies' 10% greater HP is already a non-feature that does nothing to actually change the gameplay except gratify the kind of tools who can't do the math and figure out they aren't actually getting ahead. The less energy gets wasted on more of that at the expense of adding actual depth to the game the better.

[UkyoSonoda]

The mods arent really for scaling they're for min/maxing stats or customizing for the most part to suit your particular tastes. Weapon upgrade tree for the gun you are using doesnt give a bonus you want? Stick a mod on that provides it. Want more of a specific bonus? Use a mod to stack with it and multiply the boost. Given the way mods stack multiplicively stacking the right mods on a weapon with say a 10% base damage increase can explode to easily being a 50% or higher boost in damage output. However balancing the game around these circumstances alienates new players and players with horrible luck with the random number generator as they are stuck with using near baseline weaponry. Balancing should be taken from the low to mid end of the spectrum not the high end extreme cases. The bored person with high grade min/maxed gear can always choose to use weaker equipment. The low end guy having issues cant just buy a min/maxed lv 30 gorgon right from the store. And honestly the high end spectrum is pretty much always broken when min/maxing comes into play in a game involving a type of exp or level gain that involves an increase in player stats or attributes.

Another issue is lack of content. I agree the game should have side grades however I disagree that it should ONLY have sidegrades in regards to weapon progression. Currently there is really only 1 environment available and limited enemy types which they are working on expanding as well. If they do like you people want and keep everything as only a sidegrade then when they finally get around to adding content higher level than pluto the game is going to eventually end up a grind fest just to complete a mission as the enemie's health and damage continue to increase. Something to note is that even a side grade at this stage can end up seeming overpowered if the limited environment we have available caters to it's usage too much. Given most rooms on the ships are somewhat small it causes most encounters to be mid to short range with enemies clumped fairly close together. Ideal for a Gorgon. I've noticed it isn't the case on those rare extremely large rooms with multi level walkways and numerous spaced out pillars because the enemy tends to be much more spread out and the fighting takes place at a greater range unless you actively run down and approach each cover location they are using.

Edited January 22, 2013 by UkyoSonoda

[lamiadomina]

I'd agree that the present disparity between lucky and unlucky players is a problem with the way that random drops are being implemented, yes. Likewise a problem for players who want to level a variety of gear and frames and thus have to spread their good mods around while players who are fine maining only one setup just stack all of their mods on that one setup. Frankly I'd call that a problem with grinding as a mechanic, period. I'd really like it if it just stopped being a mechanic - it would give players greater freedom to build to their own styles, and reduce the tendency to assume that it's okay for some players to be overpowered because the rng has chosen them. I think that tends to be very problematic for balance in general, just for the way it muddies the waters and makes it unclear who we are actually balancing for. Make mods craftable, make blueprints purchasable, let everybody play on a level field.

Probably won't happen, because a long history of games before this one has shown that there's a bafflingly large audience for tedious grindgames, but I can dream. There's a lot I like about Warframe and I really hope it doesn't make me regret buying founder.

[trickyvicky]

it's kind of a funny gun, and the first post is right on all points :P

i have a level 30 gorgon with reload mods so there's basically no downtime from shooting, and when i run out of ammo for it i use a rifle ammo box and keep on trucking :D i did this even before i had credit booster, so a player without platnum can do it no problem.

this gun definitely needs another damage nerf or some kind of overheating mechanic, because it's literally just mouse 1 run and gun, it oversimplifies and already simple game. that being said, it's still a fun gun for when you just want to blast space dudes! for game balance it needs changes though. or simply buff all the other guns accordingly.

Edited January 22, 2013 by trickyvicky

[lamiadomina]

I've never mained a Braton, so I can't directly compare them myself - but as of my most recent Gorgon run I'm thinking of rescinding what I said about its accuracy. At medium ranges it seems about impossible to headshot and beyond that it becomes difficult to hit at all - I think I'd be having a very, very hard time if I hadn't stacked so much armor piercing damage onto it. The more I read of this it seems like people are always going to complain about weapons that excel in particular circumstances because generalist weapons never get to stand out in the same way, and I'm losing respect for these arguments. It's never going to be possible to drop as much DPS as weapons that are specialized for high risk/high DPS. I really don't see how anybody thinks that is possible without obviating any reason to ever use a shotgun or LMG again. I begin to suspect that people just want them to be inferior weapons for them to feel smug in comparison to while playing whack a mole from across the map with their braton/snipetron and boasting on the forums about those no-skills scrubs who are too busy, you know, taking risks and focusing on evasive maneuvering to get -headshots-. Because "skill" is defined 100% solely by headshots. Fact.

[Liminal]

^What he said :P

I own both a Snipetron and a Gorgon and tbh I find the Snipetron to be way more powerful. (8k damage critical headshot wtfbbq)

Gorgon is way more fun to use, but the Snipetron is more effective: you waste less ammo, you spend less time on each target and you expose yourself a lot less... its only problem is in close quarters, but I have a bronco for that.

[lamiadomina]

I have a l30 gorgon and l18 snipetron. The snipetron fell badly behind on later levels because I hadn't been maining it, but as I start to bring it back up to competitive level I'm falling back in love with it. It creates a very different style of gameplay than my Gorgon/Hek and gives me a chance to use some sidearm options I wouldn't have otherwise and I'm cool with that. Quickly acquiring target and laying down accurate fire is a very different skillset from the defensive awareness and fast reactions required with a Gorgon or shotgun and I'm cool with that too. Disregarding that and creating a purely symbolic definition of "skill" divorced from the tactics that actually win games is pretty much the most classic hallmark of a scrub, though. If you lost the match because you were just too principled to abuse "unskilled" tactics then you are not skilled. Period

[Noctua]

Honestly if you took the Gorgon and stripped it from the game entirely people would resort using the Braton. And then somebody would complain about it too.