Iron Skin Needs To Be Buffed

[SteaKnight-X]

Also it shouldnt be ferrite how about alloy like bombards 

Would be awesome(damage wise)

But wouldn't fit the lore (Commonly used by grineer)

And also not fitting the name( IRON skin = ferrite)

Maybe give Iron Skin a similar treatment to Frost's Snow Globe by giving it 4 seconds of invulnerability and the amount of damage done to Iron Skin is converted to extra Ferrite Armor during those 4 seconds and Rhino's armour adds more Ferrite Armor to Iron Skin.

 

Like I've said^^

 

 

 

So here is my suggestion:

 

The ability is the same at it was before. Just change how the amount of your iron skin points(ferrite armor) is calculated.

Instead of having flat 400/600/800/1200 points

I would to change it to

Iron Skin points = (your armor)*2/3/4/6 

 

This way, strength mods would affect it as well as "steel fiber"

 

 

 

May be allow recasting?

 

 

 

The second suggestion is more of an idea im currently playing with

So, what if depleting parts of the of Iron Skin armor, would increase the density for the Iron skin points that are left.

Explanation:

You have 1200 Iron Skin points. If you reach 600 points(half you your max points), your skin density is doubled.

Which mean you need twice the amount of damage to take away the next point.

 

[KnightCole]

Iron SKin rework, make it where its like Planetside 2's Heavy Assault Resist Shield, reducing damage to the shields by a %, rather then being godmode.

 

Then, apply armor to the shield and health.  Give rhino a new armor type, void of resistance vulnerabilities and boost Rhino base armor up a good portion. 

 

Have Iron skin reduce damage by given %, up to a certain damage threshold, at which point it breaks and must be recast.

 

So, just as an example

 

350/700/1050/1400 damage threshold

 

reducing incoming damage by

 

15/30/45/60%. 

 

With numbers stacking alongside the Rhino's own armor values.   So if the Rhino has like 60% dmg reduction by armor, +48%, could give him like 108% dmg reduction...idk how that would work, but thats the basic idea.  Giving him not god mode, where rhino skin makes him invulnerable, but rather, where rhino skin is like a serious improvement to his innate armor damage reduction. 

 

Also, maybe make it where if he has Rhino skin active, and he dies(Phorid's Through shield kill move) and the like, the iron skin will act like Quick thinking, preventing lethal damage. 

 

 

 

 

 

THen, on his abilities, make his Roar, not a damage increasing roar, but rather one that massively reduces enemy accuracy and maybe even acts as a stun of sorts.  

 

2/4/6/8s stun

 

-10/20/30/40% chance the enemies might panic and start wildly shooting massively inaccurately.

[Lord_LongFace]

Well, your quote just gives it more hitpoints, doesnt make it tankier.  Right now, it doesnt matter if I have 1200 or 3000, I am finding that even at like 20-30minutes in survivals on like Ceres and stuff, the mobs are chewing right through all my armor/shields/health in just 1-3 shots. 

 

 

What needs to happen, is if Rhino is going to be the tankiest of them all, is he needs ot be the tankiest of them all, no rivals in any way.  He needs innate damage reduction, Armor in general needs an overhaul and a buff I think, it means absolutely nothing.  But Rhino's armor should apply to IS, Shields and health.  

 

 

 

I quitte like the idea of Rhinos Shields to also be affected by his armor value. This could be the Rhino series' passive. Slap some more armor in him like up to 500 and he is actually the best passive tank there is. No need for it to affect IS though, that stuff needs more work than just that. I had some ideas posted earlier, and while option 3: add Agressive Shout might be a little bit to powerfull, I think it might be a step to the right direction. He needs to actually be the tank, for there are none atm. He needs to be able to draw aggro awway, and let that be his bread and butter, because he isnt that interesting in terms of mechanics atm.

Edited August 29, 2015 by IvoD409

[Lord_LongFace]

I think Iron Skin should multiply his armor x5 or so, for a certain number of hits (maybe 100 or so, not sure). That would allow the ability to scale with mods.

 

 

If you may allow,

I would like to suggest a QoL change(something that would still keep core traits of the ability)

 

So here is my suggestion:

 

The ability is the same at it was before. Just change how the amount of your iron skin points(ferrite armor) is calculated.

Instead of having flat 400/600/800/1200 points

I would to change it to

Iron Skin points = (your armor)*2/3/4/6 

 

This way, strength mods would affect it as well as "steel fiber"

 

 

 

May be allow recasting?

 

 

 

The second suggestion is more of an idea im currently playing with

So, what if depleting parts of the of Iron Skin armor, would increase the density for the Iron skin points that are left.

Explanation:

You have 1200 Iron Skin points. If you reach 600 points(half you your max points), your skin density is doubled.

Which mean you need twice the amount of damage to take away the next point.

 

 

A buff to his armor (we consoles don't have that yet) and iron skin multiplying his armor stat sounds like something I'd like to see with him. I think it would work well together with his ironclad charge augment, will make you feel like a juggernaut like he should be. 

 

EDIT: He doesn't really have a lot of damage skills, so prioritizing his skills to increase his armor sounds like what he SHOULD be specializing in. Stomp already provides good CC for him and he has Roar as a buff. All around would be a very good versatile frame.

The problem in changing IS to be just a boost to armor is that armor ONLY AFFECTS HEALTH. Rhino should have a larger HP-pool or, like many ppl seem to agree on this thread, his shields should be affected by armor. That last sugestion is interesting bcs Rhino would be the only one with this mechanic.

[SteaKnight-X]

The problem in changing IS to be just a boost to armor is that armor ONLY AFFECTS HEALTH. Rhino should have a larger HP-pool or, like many ppl seem to agree on this thread, his shields should be affected by armor. That last sugestion is interesting bcs Rhino would be the only one with this mechanic.

Thats why I think that IS should benifit from armor. Because right now, the armor boost is kinda pointless. I dont think he needs more health.

This is how I see tanks^^ Lots of shield. 

Making the shield be affected by armor would be a little too OP. (Like a health bar with lots of regen)

 

If IS's hitpoints would be his (current armor)*6 , it would easily outpass the current hitpoints (1200)

 

Also may be my second suggestion would be something I would like to see. May sounds too strong, but he is a tank after all^^

[KnightCole]

 

I quitte like the idea of Rhinos Shields to also be affected by his armor value. This could be the Rhino series' passive. Slap some more armor in him like up to 500 and he is actually the best passive tank there is. No need for it to affect IS though, that stuff needs more work than just that. I had some ideas posted earlier, and while option 3: add Agressive Shout might be a little bit to powerfull, I think it might be a step to the right direction. He needs to actually be the tank, for there are none atm. He needs to be able to draw aggro awway, and let that be his bread and butter, because he isnt that interesting in terms of mechanics atm.

 

 

His main draw is to people who like tanks.  Tanks are generally not that "fun" in terms of mechanics.  Typically they are just supposed to be bullet sponges.  Utility is typically kinda low.

 

Even the Everquest 2 Shadowknight, hes a vicious, bad &#! with all sorts of self healing and stuff, and I find him loads of fun cuz of his sustainability/DPS.  His group wide help is nill, in fact, hes so selfish he has a self rez that takes his health from the group. 

 

Paladin there, hes got poorer DPS, less overall sustainability then the SK, but hes still pretty tough. 

 

Heavy Assault or MAX suit in Planetside 2.  Neither of them have to much utility outside thier weaponry.  The PS2 HA gets a shield, akin to Iron Skin, but really, the only point of either of those classes is heavy guns and more durability over the other classes.

 

I can officially attest to Rhino's sudden uselessness at just the low lvl of 50.  I JUST got out of Appolodorus, 40m survival.  I was godmode, the guys took the first like 10 minutes to shoot off my 1st cast of iron skin.  After 15m, i had to keep casting it every several mobs, after that, every couple mobs.  By 35-40m, it was cast, gone, cast, gone, cast, gone. In fact, the mobs were suddenly burrowing through ALL my shields in just exactly 3 shots.  1 for Iron skin, 1 for half my shield, 1 for half my shield and half my health.  I got in a scuffle with an Eximus, lv54, she shot off my Iron skin in 1 hit, I cast it, she hit it and it died.  I then ran outta power to cast it, so used rage to get some eneryg, cast it, gone, cast it, gone....I ended up dying cuz of how fast Iron skin was being shot off.  My shields never got a chance to even start to recharge. 

 

And I have a MAX Redirection, Vitality, Vigor, Steel Fiber and Armored Agility.  So, I have all the defensive cards I can find to max and its just at a certain point, Rhino becomes totally useless.  Its really stupid. There should not be mechanics in games that basically obsolete classes. 

[KnightCole]

So, really, Rhino, if hes to be the Tank, he needs to be the TANK.  If his draw is to take hits, he needs to take hits.  Even higher up. 

 

Give him like 500 base armor.  Apply that armor to his Shields and his health.  Also, apply it to Ironskin.  Then, Iron skin, rather then being an OP at low lvl godmode, and then useless at hgiher lvl, make it a high amounts of damage reduction to shield/health damage.  Make Iron skin something like the Planetside 2 Resist shield, rather then a set amount, it lasts for a duration, 35/40/45/50s, able to be increased through mods.  Then, while it is active, it affects all damage to health and shields, in addition to armor.  So, yeah, I guess Rhino could have over 100% damage reduction, but idk, maybe it would have ot be such a way that it can only reduce to like 1 dmg. 

 

Change his armor type to a new type that has no vulnerabilities.  Uranium: -25% vulnerability to all Damage/weapon/elemental types.  This way, he not only gets insane armor, he then gets an additional resistance through his type of armor.  Next, make him immune to Through shield/armor affects, this way, he can tank and not worry about mobs(Infested/Phorid) eating up his health despite having all his shields and IS on.  Make him immune to slash procs and anything that eats health through shields.

 

In the end, RHino would not have godmode like he does now, but instead his shields and health would just drop at a vastly reduced rate.  Where as now, the lv54 eximus was shooting off my 1200 iron skin in 1 shot, with this new proposal, she woulda done, maybe 30 points of damage to my shield, and  the normal grineer with thier bullets would be doing like 1-5 dmg to my shields.  Even a bombard, that typically can also shoot off my shields, would be doing maybe 50-100.  And lets keep in mind, I have 1280 shields.  So, taking fire from a heavy bombard and only taking maybe 20 dmg, while I might die eventually, it will be significantly slowed down. 

 

OR even higher up, where prolly, those lv 200 mobs simply 1 shot you, dealing like 3000 dmg, even that would be massively reduced to make you prolly be able to tank the hit...

 

Then, give rhino a new set of abilities.  Give him an ability that trades energy to regenerate shields.  So, while active, he will trade, say 1 energy to regen 5 points of shields per second at rank 0. so, like 1E=5/7/9/11 energy, increased by mods. It would be togglable so as not to drain all your energy, but it could I suppose.  It gives rhino a quicker way to kinda replenish his shields in combat.  Maybe not a ton to replace trin, but kinda helpful benefit.

Edited August 29, 2015 by KnightCole

[croxeye]

my own idea for Iron skin is to make it into a duration based power that does 95-99% Damage Reduction instead of it's current iteration.

 

Wait! Please put the pitchforks away and hear me out, they recently slightly reworked rhino's ult so that it benefits from duration as well, his charge range is also based off of duration, and of course Roar is based off duration.

 

Plus this way it'll scale well into endgame which is his main problem right now.

 

So moving Iron Skin to a duration based DR (like shatter shield but with greater protection against melee) and perhaps switch it around with Roar? then make Roar's ability will aggro all enemies on Rhino while it's active, as he has a massive DR so they won't hit for that much with each bullet/rocket/whatever

 

edit: *looks at post above his own* and of course this is what I get for not reading the whole thread :X

Edited August 29, 2015 by croxeye

[Lord_LongFace]

I can officially attest to Rhino's sudden uselessness at just the low lvl of 50.  I JUST got out of Appolodorus, 40m survival.  I was godmode, the guys took the first like 10 minutes to shoot off my 1st cast of iron skin.  After 15m, i had to keep casting it every several mobs, after that, every couple mobs.  By 35-40m, it was cast, gone, cast, gone, cast, gone. In fact, the mobs were suddenly burrowing through ALL my shields in just exactly 3 shots.  1 for Iron skin, 1 for half my shield, 1 for half my shield and half my health.  I got in a scuffle with an Eximus, lv54, she shot off my Iron skin in 1 hit, I cast it, she hit it and it died.  I then ran outta power to cast it, so used rage to get some eneryg.

 

 

Thats why I think that IS should benifit from armor. Because right now, the armor boost is kinda pointless. I dont think he needs more health.

This is how I see tanks^^ Lots of shield. 

Making the shield be affected by armor would be a little too OP. (Like a health bar with lots of regen)

 

If IS's hitpoints would be his (current armor)*6 , it would easily outpass the current hitpoints (1200)

 

Also may be my second suggestion would be something I would like to see. May sounds too strong, but he is a tank after all^^

KnightCole perfectly states the reason why a flat out shield isnt going to cut it. Rhino needs more dmg reduction for his enemys and more rallying CC (bringing large groups of enemys close together) to be able to be that tank we want him to be. Yet, if he gets that potential, he is still to prone to die instantly all the time, so he should get more tanky just by his passive stats. Valkyr shouldnt be the one with the most armor of the bunch, Rhino should. More armor = more weight, and Rhino is the heaviest warframe.

[Ezariel]

maybe it is not a question of Iron skin, but armor. This feature seems to not work as it should.

[SteaKnight-X]

KnightCole perfectly states the reason why a flat out shield isnt going to cut it. Rhino needs more dmg reduction for his enemys and more rallying CC (bringing large groups of enemys close together) to be able to be that tank we want him to be. Yet, if he gets that potential, he is still to prone to die instantly all the time, so he should get more tanky just by his passive stats. Valkyr shouldnt be the one with the most armor of the bunch, Rhino should. More armor = more weight, and Rhino is the heaviest warframe.

Agreed that heavy means tanky.

But the problem with dmg reduction is the following:

It wouldn't make Rhino THE TANK. Since we already have squishy Warframes (Trinity, Mesa, even Nekros.........) that can even reach like 99% dmg reduction.

 

And If the dmg reduction would go over 100% ,then we would have the Hysteria problem. Which DE is currently trying to fix.

 

 

May be something like that would also fix the problem.

He starts with flat IS Hitpoints:

Lets keep the suggested 2/3/4/6*(current armor)

 

At rank 30 with the non prime rhino you would have 

1140 hitpoints

and add to that shield damage reduction reduction

50%/60%/70%/80%

 

Now with no extra armor or power strength at rank 30 with non prime rhino you have following stats

-1140 hitpoints

-80% damage reduction

 

 

The balance factor:

-While power strength only affects the damage recution

-Armor increases the hitpoints only (cuz (base armor)*6)

 

Even at the base stats without extra strength or armor would be better than other damage reduction frames

without being OP

And with mods, it could scale well to late game

Edited August 30, 2015 by SteaKnight-X

[jinsaotomex4]

Some not fully thought out ideas, I noticed that some suggestions are already similar but whatever. Augment mods are bleh so these were designed pretending they never existed (or if Augments had their own section for customization instead of taking up mod slots)  ;) This is also designed for PvE and not PvP. 

 

Iron Skin absorbs a fixed number of hits instead of having health (number of hits it can take increases with power strength). Skin absorbs X% of the incoming damage and when it expires/is refreshed (can be refreshed at will as long as you have the energy) it creates an explosion that deals damage back to the enemies, knocks them down as well as applying a puncture proc dealing whatever damage was absorbed back to them.  The idea here is to absorb as much damage as possible then dish it back in an explosion or if Iron Skin is broken, it becomes a CC that helps protect Rhino.  I wanted to do slash proc but I think puncture fits better overall thematically.

 

Roar taunts enemies making them attack Rhino for X seconds giving you some Iron Skin + Roar synergy. This one was pretty straight forward.  I wanted to keep the damage portion of Roar but the benefit it provides simply isn't as good as it is on other frames. Some ideas I had were that Roar gives punch through to all allies affected by Roar and/or reduces the armor of all enemies affected by Roar for X seconds. Even have enemies a certain percent of their health/armor as damage works. I also thought of having Roar give your shots a chance to stun enemies . The idea here is to give Rhino a skill that allows him to be a team player both supporting the team and directing the flow of battle. This one is tricky though, too much range and you trivialize everything even more.  However, there's already plenty of frames/powers that can do that already and DE seems to be moving in that direction so let's bring Rhino up to that level.

 

Rhino Stomp causes an earthquake that makes enemies fall over/stumble and get hit as long as they are within the Stomp's epicenter.  Every time an enemy is hit by a shockwave, Iron Skin charges are added to the total max. Enemies outside the main radius are ragdolled. Basically I am replacing Rhino Stomp with Banshee's Sound Quake since I think that Banshee can get a much more interesting moveset. Mechanically it would function similar to how Stomp is now.  You press the Stomp key, enemies are CC'd and take some damage and it can't be refreshed while it is active but enemies being hit help restore Iron Skin. 

 

Rhino Charge was something that I had trouble working into this but here it goes.  Rhino Charge is changed to a channeled ability, you press it once to activate and it drains energy as long as it's active.  Press it again to deactivate. While Rhino Charge is active, Rhino becomes a moving juggernaut, ragdolling any enemies that he hits.  Damage is affected by Power Strength and Movement Speed and Rhino is immune to crowd control while this is active.  Charging while Iron Skin is active increases the damage by X% but consumes an Iron Skin charge per enemy hit.  Also, enemies that are already stunned/ragdolled/knocked down/staggered take increased damage if they're hit by Rhino Charge. I wanted this to work in conjunction with Rhino Stomp mainly.  You can use Stomp for CC/add charges and if a priority target isn't dead you can Rhino Charge them for more control. 

 

I wanted to have Rhino play in a way that you would be using all his skills with each other while having him control where the fight happens and I think the above would all work nicely together.

 

tl;dr : Buff Rhino

[SteaKnight-X]

 

-snip-

 

hmm,......

1.Iron Skin 

So as far as I understood, IS becomes a mobile and cheaper(energy) Nyx Absorb, that isn't even an ult.

I see how strong this would be, but I think you understand why this can't happen

 

2.Roar taunt

I like the synergy with IS and this skill alot

But the buff and debuff are way to strong,  on a tank.

 

3. Stomb

Basically I am replacing Rhino Stomp with Banshee's Sound Quake

You already say it.

 

4 Rhino Charge

I would like that ability. But only if Parkour 2.0 is deactivated,  while active.(No Jumps, no wall running etc.) 

Also it you have a slow acceleration, (slower then normal speed) but the top speed should be faster.

And then it should not be a 1st ability. I mean : Zero CC works on you.... This is ultimate level

[jinsaotomex4]

hmm,......

1.Iron Skin 

So as far as I understood, IS becomes a mobile and cheaper(energy) Nyx Absorb, that isn't even an ult.

I see how strong this would be, but I think you understand why this can't happen

 

2.Roar taunt

I like the synergy with IS and this skill alot

But the buff and debuff are way to strong,  on a tank.

 

3. Stomb

You already say it.

 

4 Rhino Charge

I would like that ability. But only if Parkour 2.0 is deactivated,  while active.(No Jumps, no wall running etc.) 

Also it you have a slow acceleration, (slower then normal speed) but the top speed should be faster.

And then it should not be a 1st ability. I mean : Zero CC works on you.... This is ultimate level

Tanks having strong buffs/debuffs is really nothing new.  Tanks in most games bring extremely useful utility with them on top of being able to soak damage mainly because you don't want to pigeonhole classes into just one thing and Warframe is no exception.  The utility itself is never stronger than something a dedicated damage/utility character brings so the percentages would be adjusted accordingly.  

 

Yeah Iron Skin would basically become a much weaker version of Nyx's ult in terms of damage, since enemy EHP scales much faster than their damage, the damage portion is just a bonus rather than something you would be depending on, the CC on break is the important part to prevent deaths with being able to refresh at will. I made it a percent so it will always be somewhat useful even if you're fighting level 200 enemies. 

 

My suggestions for Roar is not to have ALL of those things, maybe just two of those effects tops.  I was leaning more towards the Stun version for Rhino Charge synergy and an armor debuff that stacks per shot (with a cap of say 25%).  Basically I want to make Corrosive Projection not a mandatory thing on everyone since I am not really a fan of mandatory mods. In this scenario, Corrosive Projection would still be better in a party of 3 or 4 since the benefit is instant but you can live without it. It would also allow for Corrosive Projection + debuff to give you more killing power when solo at higher levels since it's something that Rhino severely lacks atm.

 

Having CC immunity on Rhino Charge is just an added perk, probably not needed seeing as how Iron Skin protects you from all CC already that is not Blast. I agree that it should have some sort of momentum behind it, the faster your movement speed the faster you reach max momentum would work nicely. A way to balance the CC component on Rhino Charge is have the prevented CC effects drain Energy or Iron Skin Charges if Iron Skin is active.  That way you can't just go to town and call it a day.  It can have exponential energy drain as well so the longer you're charging the harder it is to maintain. The damage wouldn't be the main factor either, you'd ideally want to Charge for the CC more than anything. 

[SteaKnight-X]

Tanks having strong buffs/debuffs is really nothing new.  Tanks in most games bring extremely useful utility with them on top of being able to soak damage mainly because you don't want to pigeonhole classes into just one thing and Warframe is no exception.  The utility itself is never stronger than something a dedicated damage/utility character brings so the percentages would be adjusted accordingly.  

 

Yeah Iron Skin would basically become a much weaker version of Nyx's ult in terms of damage, since enemy EHP scales much faster than their damage, the damage portion is just a bonus rather than something you would be depending on, the CC on break is the important part to prevent deaths with being able to refresh at will. I made it a percent so it will always be somewhat useful even if you're fighting level 200 enemies. 

 

My suggestions for Roar is not to have ALL of those things, maybe just two of those effects tops.  I was leaning more towards the Stun version for Rhino Charge synergy and an armor debuff that stacks per shot (with a cap of say 25%).  Basically I want to make Corrosive Projection not a mandatory thing on everyone since I am not really a fan of mandatory mods. In this scenario, Corrosive Projection would still be better in a party of 3 or 4 since the benefit is instant but you can live without it. It would also allow for Corrosive Projection + debuff to give you more killing power when solo at higher levels since it's something that Rhino severely lacks atm.

 

Having CC immunity on Rhino Charge is just an added perk, probably not needed seeing as how Iron Skin protects you from all CC already that is not Blast. I agree that it should have some sort of momentum behind it, the faster your movement speed the faster you reach max momentum would work nicely. A way to balance the CC component on Rhino Charge is have the prevented CC effects drain Energy or Iron Skin Charges if Iron Skin is active.  That way you can't just go to town and call it a day.  It can have exponential energy drain as well so the longer you're charging the harder it is to maintain. The damage wouldn't be the main factor either, you'd ideally want to Charge for the CC more than anything. 

The CC on IS is not bad, I agree with that. (Just like augumented mod) But not if the dmg depend on how much you have taken,

It would scale well to late game. I see what youre aiming for. But the main reason should bee the cc aspect^^.

 

 

2.Roar taunt

I like the synergy with IS and this skill alot

But the buff and debuff are way to strong,  on a tank.

 

 

Let me rephrase that. It would be too stong for a 3rd ability.

I see a tank as someone who taunts the enemy to make them focus you and you only. 

He already have that dmg buff on roar. Which is not bad^^

The armor reduction would be a bit overkill in my opinion

 

Drawing enemy fire that focus your allies would be actually one of the best utilities in game.

Squishy Frames wouldn be a problem in late game(as long as a rhino is there^^)

 

Well I think we agree on Rhino Charge. Growing momentum that decreases your Parkour 2,0 capabalities

A little visual addition I would like to see:

While the Charge is active is steps should be heavy(like little earth quakes)^^

This would be really enjoyable. Like making the enemy know "Here I come!!!!

You would also hear that "Boom Boom Boom" that gets faster as your speed increases

[CGs_Knackie]

Agreed.

[jinsaotomex4]

The CC on IS is not bad, I agree with that. (Just like augumented mod) But not if the dmg depend on how much you have taken,

It would scale well to late game. I see what youre aiming for. But the main reason should bee the cc aspect^^.

 

 

Let me rephrase that. It would be too stong for a 3rd ability.

I see a tank as someone who taunts the enemy to make them focus you and you only. 

He already have that dmg buff on roar. Which is not bad^^

The armor reduction would be a bit overkill in my opinion

 

Drawing enemy fire that focus your allies would be actually one of the best utilities in game.

Squishy Frames wouldn be a problem in late game(as long as a rhino is there^^)

 

Well I think we agree on Rhino Charge. Growing momentum that decreases your Parkour 2,0 capabalities

A little visual addition I would like to see:

While the Charge is active is steps should be heavy(like little earth quakes)^^

This would be really enjoyable. Like making the enemy know "Here I come!!!!

You would also hear that "Boom Boom Boom" that gets faster as your speed increases

 

Personally I would change every single skill in the game to scale well into endgame, not every skill needs to be OMG BEST THING EVER but they should be usable within the niche they're supposed to fill. There's a lot of skills on damage frames that become not useful once the mobs are level ~25 or so that just don't really become worthwhile for the damage from a risk/reward/energy usage standpoint which just results in just using the "safest" skills and nothing else. However it's obvious that DE is just trying to design a lot of the new stuff around CC power rather than killing power but we'll see.

 

As for Iron Skin, the percentage of the damage absorbed can just be low. It can just be 1% and it'd be significantly less effective than Nyx's which is why I used X% instead of flat out putting a percent on it. Next paragraph has a better explanation. 

 

The damage bonus on roar is... meh compared to what a lot of other frames (even tanky frames!) can bring to the table and falls under the "Good enough for everything but end game content" which is something I hope DE wants to fix. This becomes even more apparent when certain frames can bring damage buffs almost an order of magnitude stronger while still being tanky. Percent based debuffs are a good way to handle the scaling if you want to design abilities that are useful at all level ranges.  You can also use formulas that take both your warframe level and enemy level into account and adjust the scaling that way. Fixed debuff numbers work if the values you're trying to lower have a hard cap on them, so you can balance around maximum number of stacks and such, with the way enemies scale percentages are the way to go. If DE refuses to change this, then we'll all just be running corrosive projection forever basically.  

[KnightCole]

Agreed that heavy means tanky.

But the problem with dmg reduction is the following:

It wouldn't make Rhino THE TANK. Since we already have squishy Warframes (Trinity, Mesa, even Nekros.........) that can even reach like 99% dmg reduction.

 

And If the dmg reduction would go over 100% ,then we would have the Hysteria problem. Which DE is currently trying to fix.

 

 

May be something like that would also fix the problem.

He starts with flat IS Hitpoints:

Lets keep the suggested 2/3/4/6*(current armor)

 

At rank 30 with the non prime rhino you would have 

1140 hitpoints

and add to that shield damage reduction reduction

50%/60%/70%/80%

 

Now with no extra armor or power strength at rank 30 with non prime rhino you have following stats

-1140 hitpoints

-80% damage reduction

 

 

The balance factor:

-While power strength only affects the damage recution

-Armor increases the hitpoints only (cuz (base armor)*6)

 

Even at the base stats without extra strength or armor would be better than other damage reduction frames

without being OP

And with mods, it could scale well to late game

 

Yes, but the thing with trin and all them, with my proposal to apply it to his armor/shields/health, would allow him to be tankier in that his shields would also be affected by the armor reduction. 

 

So, while trinity might have 99% reduction, her shields still get shot off very quickly, her armor is nill.  Trin is not inherently tanky, she has to use abilties and the like in order to obtain that defense.  Then, hers is situational based on the skill you cast and its short duration anyway.

 

Rhino, atleast with my proposal, his tankiness would be a passive.  He woudl always have it active and it would be applying to all portions of health all the time.  So, while trin and them need to work to get it, Rhino would just have it.

 

 

I also drummed up another idea to replace some of his abilities to be a little more defensive minded overall, while giving him a sort of offensive abilities as well.

 

1: Counter Attack: 75energy (could maybe be his #4)

 

When active will reflect

 

20/35/60/85% of unmitigated damage outward in a blast of energy, putting all hit into stasis for

2/3/4/5 seconds with a

10/20/30/40% chance for each time hes hit

When activated it lasts for

10/15/25/35 seconds

Radius is 2/4/7/10m

 

Basically, while he is taking massively reduced damage, when this ability activates, it will return a % of the full damage he would have taken back at the enemy.  So, for example, a 100 point hit, he reduces it to like 20 points.  He takes the 20, but when active, this ability would return 85 dmg back to all enemies in the radius.    This could buy him time to regen shields, should he be getting low, a sort of "oh S#&$" spell.

 

2: Channelled Rage<<I cant think of something else

 

When active, Rhino will transfer energy into shields at a rate of

 

1 energy for 4/8/12/16 shields per second for

20/25/30/35 seconds

 

Pretty much this is a sort of aid to help Rhino recover quickly mid fight, so he does not need to hide and regen, while he might still, this can aid him, or help him reduce damage further. 

 

Affected by +duration and efficiency, where 30% eff would reduce the 1 energy for x shields into 0.7energy for X shields.  Power str would improve the shield regen amount. 

 

3: Fearsome Roar: 75 energy

 

When activated all hostiles within

 

2/4/6/8m will have thier damage and accuracy reduced by

10/12/15/20% for

10/15/20/30seconds. 

 

Upon activation, all hostiles affected are hit by a

1/2/3/4s stun.  

 

4: Unbreakable Wall: 100% energy cost, cannot regain energy while active. *yes, im sure this one is waaayyyyy to fking OP*

 

When activated, for

 

10/12/15/20s, when Rhino would receive Lethal damage, he instead is instantly restored of

15/20/25/30% of his health and shields

[Awazx]

bump.

Personally I would change every single skill in the game to scale well into endgame, not every skill needs to be OMG BEST THING EVER but they should be usable within the niche they're supposed to fill. There's a lot of skills on damage frames that become not useful once the mobs are level ~25 or so that just don't really become worthwhile for the damage from a risk/reward/energy usage standpoint which just results in just using the "safest" skills and nothing else. However it's obvious that DE is just trying to design a lot of the new stuff around CC power rather than killing power but we'll see.

 

We have one year in this forum saying.

 

Everything remains the same.

[KnightCole]

Personally I would change every single skill in the game to scale well into endgame, not every skill needs to be OMG BEST THING EVER but they should be usable within the niche they're supposed to fill. There's a lot of skills on damage frames that become not useful once the mobs are level ~25 or so that just don't really become worthwhile for the damage from a risk/reward/energy usage standpoint which just results in just using the "safest" skills and nothing else. However it's obvious that DE is just trying to design a lot of the new stuff around CC power rather than killing power but we'll see.

 

I would stop the lvling at all at like lvl 50.....since we stop being able to ramp up our toons, why keep letting the mobs just infinitely scale onwards?

[jinsaotomex4]

I would stop the lvling at all at like lvl 50.....since we stop being able to ramp up our toons, why keep letting the mobs just infinitely scale onwards?

Enemies getting stronger and stronger in endless modes is pretty common, the issue is just how much stronger they get. In Warframe, it just highlights the game's glaring issues with various enemy scaling mechanics (eHP, armor, accuracy, damage and damage multipliers) while other games you can still survive by not getting hit. Only real way to do that in Warframe is to strip them of all their damage and CC them so they become irrelevant as accuracy scales so high that moves that decrease accuracy do nothing so you just end up getting one shot anyway. We have a bunch of things that are scaled for endgame content and some that clearly aren't so you just end up with a huge mess. 

 

 

bump.

 

We have one year in this forum saying.

 

Everything remains the same.

 

 

Oh I'm pretty sure this has been going on longer than that. It's hard to see the direction they want to take things in sometimes because there's no focus, it's more like traversing an infinitely expanding spider web more than anything and that's not a good thing.

[Lord_LongFace]

Yes, but the thing with trin and all them, with my proposal to apply it to his armor/shields/health, would allow him to be tankier in that his shields would also be affected by the armor reduction. 

 

So, while trinity might have 99% reduction, her shields still get shot off very quickly, her armor is nill.  Trin is not inherently tanky, she has to use abilties and the like in order to obtain that defense.  Then, hers is situational based on the skill you cast and its short duration anyway.

 

Rhino, atleast with my proposal, his tankiness would be a passive.  He woudl always have it active and it would be applying to all portions of health all the time.  So, while trin and them need to work to get it, Rhino would just have it.

 

 

I also drummed up another idea to replace some of his abilities to be a little more defensive minded overall, while giving him a sort of offensive abilities as well.

 

1: Counter Attack: 75energy (could maybe be his #4)

 

When active will reflect

 

20/35/60/85% of unmitigated damage outward in a blast of energy, putting all hit into stasis for

2/3/4/5 seconds with a

10/20/30/40% chance for each time hes hit

When activated it lasts for

10/15/25/35 seconds

Radius is 2/4/7/10m

 

Basically, while he is taking massively reduced damage, when this ability activates, it will return a % of the full damage he would have taken back at the enemy.  So, for example, a 100 point hit, he reduces it to like 20 points.  He takes the 20, but when active, this ability would return 85 dmg back to all enemies in the radius.    This could buy him time to regen shields, should he be getting low, a sort of "oh S#&$" spell.

 

2: Channelled Rage<<I cant think of something else

 

When active, Rhino will transfer energy into shields at a rate of

 

1 energy for 4/8/12/16 shields per second for

20/25/30/35 seconds

 

Pretty much this is a sort of aid to help Rhino recover quickly mid fight, so he does not need to hide and regen, while he might still, this can aid him, or help him reduce damage further. 

 

Affected by +duration and efficiency, where 30% eff would reduce the 1 energy for x shields into 0.7energy for X shields.  Power str would improve the shield regen amount. 

 

3: Fearsome Roar: 75 energy

 

When activated all hostiles within

 

2/4/6/8m will have thier damage and accuracy reduced by

10/12/15/20% for

10/15/20/30seconds. 

 

Upon activation, all hostiles affected are hit by a

1/2/3/4s stun.  

 

4: Unbreakable Wall: 100% energy cost, cannot regain energy while active. *yes, im sure this one is waaayyyyy to fking OP*

 

When activated, for

 

10/12/15/20s, when Rhino would receive Lethal damage, he instead is instantly restored of

15/20/25/30% of his health and shields

Yes to all you are saying, these ideas are in the right direction.

 

The only problem is, that if shields indeed are affected by armor, my instinct is to put on ALL HP and shield mods I have in Rhino. This is not a bad thing however. There is just one word needed to fix your ideas with the modding.

 

Make everything CHANNELD.

 

That way, the only thing Rhino need is Fleeting Expertise and he can actually work with his skills, for Rhino only has 100 energy. 

 

Ofc your numbers on the skills are WAAAAAAAAAY to strong if he gets channeld skills, but only the roar doesnt work in a channeld way. I would REALLY want to try this monster of a tank. Pair his 3rd and 4th (the OP last stand and the dmg return) with the Rage mod and be like a 99% dmg reduction trinity, until your energy runs completely dry xD.

[Lord_LongFace]

Enemies getting stronger and stronger in endless modes is pretty common, the issue is just how much stronger they get. In Warframe, it just highlights the game's glaring issues with various enemy scaling mechanics (eHP, armor, accuracy, damage and damage multipliers) while other games you can still survive by not getting hit. Only real way to do that in Warframe is to strip them of all their damage and CC them so they become irrelevant as accuracy scales so high that moves that decrease accuracy do nothing so you just end up getting one shot anyway. We have a bunch of things that are scaled for endgame content and some that clearly aren't so you just end up with a huge mess. 

 

Just make it that Armor has a cap. That way, Chroma also gets a little bit nerfed, because the cap I think of would be around 3000 armor, which gives 90% dmg reduction. Chroma can easily get over this cap. 

 

Anyway, the HP-scalling of enemys I do not have a clue of how to cap this without giving up the chalenge of the late game. I would like to see a ramp up after lvl 100, to make the trials a little bit easier, because those things do have a lot of issues, all related to the scalling of the enemys.

[Ronyn]

Rhino, atleast with my proposal, his tankiness would be a passive. 

-----------------------

I also drummed up another idea to replace some of his abilities to be a little more defensive minded overall, while giving him a sort of offensive abilities as well.

Switching rhino's tankiness primarily to passive is an interesting idea. There may be something in that.

---------------------------

As for your specific ideas to replace his abilities. They are just too much of a departure from what the frame is now.

It's basically an entirely different frame. I can't support that kind of thing, Particularly when I don't think it needs to go that far to get rhino to the right place.

[SteaKnight-X]

Switching rhino's tankiness primarily to passive is an interesting idea. There may be something in that.

---------------------------

As for your specific ideas to replace his abilities. They are just too much of a departure from what the frame is now.

It's basically an entirely different frame. I can't support that kind of thing, Particularly when I don't think it needs to go that far to get rhino to the right place.

Agreed, 

Ok to the  tankiness boost.

But the complete rework would be too much