Make The Game Harder Without Impacting Players Playing 'properly': Cover Ignoring Attacks

[smiljem]

Yes. Perhaps some kind of female grineer enemy that has some kind of grappling hook that stuns you and pulls you. It also requires no line of sight, and works through terrain. Oh wait, those exist.

[Xylia]

All of those things exist precisely because people hide in cover. Rollers, scorpions, etc were all clearly introduced because a number of players were hiding behind cover instead of actually playing the game. You have to do something about people hiding in cover first before you can deal with them, because otherwise those selfsame players will whine about how you're "removing content" or "making the game too easy."

 

Simple: Ignore the whiners.

 

I don't understand why that is so hard to do. It is clearly a vicious circle -- we hide behind boxes because we MUST.

 

They put stupid crap that forces us to hide behind boxes because people were hiding behind boxes... *rolls eyes*.

 

If you force us out of hiding behind boxes before making the stuff Do-able, then guess what? People can't solo anymore 'cept the uber-modded people and people just simply say "screw this" and quit the game instead when they can't do anything solo or 2-man for getting killed constantly.

 

That is why you must tone down the ridiculousness of mobs BEFORE adding "No-Cover" mobs. That is why people HATE Grineer Scorpions to this day -- nobody likes being hooked and dragged out of Line of Sight when there's 20+ mobs pew-pewing you to death while you're stunned and unable to do anything in retaliation until it is too late.

 

And the LAST freaking thing we need is MORE RIDICULOUS OVERPOWERED MOBS.

 

Oh, and Disruptors? Who "hides behind boxes" during Infested maps? Are you seriously saying they added Disruptors because people were taking cover? lol. Seriously?

 

So yes, stop it with the ridiculous situations and I'll stop taking cover. Don't force me to stop taking cover and THEN wait for the ridiculous situations to go away. I'll just simply say "Screw it" and stop playing (and paying) until it is fixed and that is never a healthy situation for any game.

 

So, recap:

 

If you make things less ridiculous FIRST and then add Cover-Busting Mobs SECOND, you get some whining the game is "too easy". They'll probably hang out on Pluto or Tier 3 of the Tower where stuff is still hard.

If you add Cover-Busting Mobs FIRST and then make things less ridiculous SECOND, you get a lot of low-to-mid geared players going "Screw this, I quit" because they can't handle the stuff.

[ValhaHazred]

You do realize MJ12 wants alot of that stupid stunlock stuff gone too, right? Ideally all his suggestions would be granted in one of the large updates, rather than multiple hotfixes.

[Xylia]

You do realize MJ12 wants alot of that stupid stunlock stuff gone too, right? Ideally all his suggestions would be granted in one of the large updates, rather than multiple hotfixes.

 

But yet he wants cover nerfed first, stunlock/mob swarming/etc nerfed second, though.

 

I want stunlocks/ridiculous OP stuff nerfed first and THEN cover nerfed second.

 

And trying to do all this in one patch is going to be messy. It would basically change the gameplay all in one patch which SW:G taught us, IS NOT A GOOD THING TO DO.

[Kyte]

What, like how they changed the mod system?
Being beta this is the perfect moment for radical gameplay changes.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Simple: Ignore the whiners.

Nice idea, but impossible to put into practice.

And the LAST freaking thing we need is MORE RIDICULOUS OVERPOWERED MOBS.

I'm not seeing how cover-denying napalm grenades or enemies with puncture would be overpowered. Plus, introducing such enemies would let you strongly nerf all the ones that are actually overpowered.

 

Oh, and Disruptors? Who "hides behind boxes" during Infested maps? Are you seriously saying they added Disruptors because people were taking cover? lol. Seriously?

On infested, it's less "hide behind boxes" and more "hide on top of boxes."

[Xylia]

On infested, it's less "hide behind boxes" and more "hide on top of boxes."

 

Uh, yeah I tried that once. Promptly got slapped around by a bunch of dogs, and one of the ancients was able to throw his......thing.... up at me anyways.

 

I'm not seeing how cover-denying napalm grenades or enemies with puncture would be overpowered. Plus, introducing such enemies would let you strongly nerf all the ones that are actually overpowered.

 

In of themselves? No.

 

When you've got 20+ mobs in each room? Yeah. You need that cover or you will DIE unless you're uber-modded or have Frost/Rhino.

 

Therefore, mobs that force you out of cover = overpowered when combined with pre-existing conditions.

 

Nice idea, but impossible to put into practice.

 

I disagree.

 

Most of the people who whine about the game being "too easy" are usually trolls (everybody gains when you ignore/ban a troll) and/or elitists. Elitists are the very first thing that ruins an MMO's community. They are like a steaming pile of crap -- they make everybody's life miserable.

 

There's challenge in the game. They want EVERYTHING, ALL levels to be challenging. You just can't have that with how the game works today. There has to be some easier content to do to try to gear up for the harder content. The elitists want everybody to have to have hair-pulling frustrating gameplay.

 

I think the Elitists can bugger off IMO.

[Xylia]

What, like how they changed the mod system?

Being beta this is the perfect moment for radical gameplay changes.

 

There's a limit to how radical you should be, though.

 

Some things are best done gradually, rather than try to re-invent the whole game in a single patch.

[KageNoShini]

On infested, it's less "hide behind boxes" and more "hide on top of boxes."

pretty much.

 

I do wish that the dodge/roll mechanics would actually save you, as it is right now it slows you down most of the time, I'd be running and diving even more.

 

maybe a .2 second invulnerability, that way skilled people can timely dodge whatever while making the window so small that messing up basically means you get wrecked by whatever you try to dodge.

 

I do want to be able to stick to walls and ceilings though, would be great fun for stealth or being ninja in general, also helps get rid of "I'll stay behind(top in case of infested) this box and slowly gun away at the enemies" when this is clearly suppose to be a run n gun. Exception with snipers, but even then you're still 100% accurate w/o having to zoom.

 

as it is i just run, dive sideways and throw shuriken/kunai like a ninja and watch the bodies hit the floor as ash. or jump straight at a guy and put an arrow in his face with the paris.

[KageNoShini]

When you've got 20+ mobs in each room? Yeah. You need that cover or you will DIE unless you're uber-modded or have Frost/Rhino.

 

Therefore, mobs that force you out of cover = overpowered when combined with pre-existing conditions.

 

Actually, Ash and Loki are pretty much fine too, not just Frost/Rhino, Nyx probably has a chance, so does Vauban, Ember with ok modding and overheat might survive, so maybe 7 out of the 11-12 frames can do it with 1 or 2 of their skills, it's not so bad if you prioritize targets.

Edited May 28, 2013 by KageNoShini

[Xylia]

Actually, Ash and Loki are pretty much fine too, not just Frost/Rhino, Nyx probably has a chance, so does Vauban, Ember with ok modding and overheat might survive, so maybe 7 out of the 11-12 frames can do it with 1 or 2 of their skills, it's not so bad if you prioritize targets.

 

Assuming you've got the mods you need, maybe.

 

What if you are terribly unlucky with mods OR you're somewhat new to the game yet?

 

Balancing the game around Pro Players with all the mods is not the right direction to go because those without said mods/frames feel useless/squishy/etc.

[ValhaHazred]

But yet he wants cover nerfed first, stunlock/mob swarming/etc nerfed second, though.

 

I want stunlocks/ridiculous OP stuff nerfed first and THEN cover nerfed second.

 

And trying to do all this in one patch is going to be messy. It would basically change the gameplay all in one patch which SW:G taught us, IS NOT A GOOD THING TO DO.

Personally, I just want both issues solved. It doesn't matter to me in what order they do it in.

It's in Beta, a radical change is occassionally needed. And I really don't think anyone with any brains will complain about better gameplay (after the first weekend anyway).

Even the roller/scorpion apologists will probably come around when they start having fun instead of experiencing stockholme syndrome.

[Xylia]

Personally, I just want both issues solved. It doesn't matter to me in what order they do it in.

It's in Beta, a radical change is occassionally needed. And I really don't think anyone with any brains will complain about better gameplay (after the first weekend anyway).

Even the roller/scorpion apologists will probably come around when they start having fun instead of experiencing stockholme syndrome.

 

That is, of course, assuming the patch goes smoothly.

 

The more things you change in the patch, the more chance that something will end up farked up beyond all belief.

 

Either by bugs, or by seriously imbalanced stuff. Either/or.

 

I'm not saying DE is a bad company or that they have bad developers, but simple logic would assume that a huge mega-patch to re-balance the game could potentially introduce a LOT of issues, whether they be bugs or imbalanced situations, or what-not.

 

Then what do we do? Experience a week or so of Hell of "Nerf this, buff that" in a huge cycle of nerf, buff, balance to weapons, warframes, etc?

 

I'm not sure that's what I'd like to see happen.

 

I'd rather they go about it in a gradual pace. Start with the overpowered mobs first. Yeah, that'd make the game easy for a little while. Better than "OMG UNPLAYABLE/IMPOSSIBLE TO SOLO" if you added the Cover-Busting Mobs first. Then, after a week or so of re-balancing mob spawns, tweaking some mobs to work differently in 1, 2, 3 and 4 player games, etc THEN you can add in new mobs that force you out of cover once things are a bit easier.

 

Much less opportunities for bugs and game-breaking issues, that way.

[HellEnforcer]

 Well, even though it was kind of a pain to see this 'fight', I read it. I must say that MJ12 is totally right and it seems that those agaist his idea are missing quite a lot of thing to the point it makes me wonder if they are even reading the suggestion entirely to begin with.

 

 After hiding FOR A FEW seconds, if those wall-piercing enemies saw you, they will shoot. They would need to charge their attack for another few seconds and even after they shot, the shot is not instant, it has travel time and on top of that it anounces is arrival by lighting the point where it will come from the wall or box... Not only that, but those enemies are not the lancers, so they are not everywhere or in huge numbers. I don't see any problem at all with this. You get enought time to recharge some of your shields by taking cover and fleeing once you see the wall to bright up. Also, it does not stun you or make you do the mate dance for the penguins, the shot just takes hp... a lot of it... and only a lot if you are in cover as it gains damage for things it goes through.

 

 As for those saying you can't go Rambo on this game... I do that with Mag all the time, it is not only possible but actually easier and faster that firing with the gun, not to mention a lot more fun.

 New player going Loki? So what? Have you seen shield lancers on the first level? or heavy gunners? They don't have to be low tier enemies...

 

 Energy problems? What are you talking about? Sounds like you use your ultimte skill with 4 enemies around. I get energy orbs drops at an insane rate each time I make a mess to the point they are everywhere once I leave the room (except in defense missions) and rarely run out of energy unless Ancient Disruptors are having a fun with their tentacle arm of Tenno happiness.

 

 Even though it does not present any change on my gameplay style, I would love to see this present just because it adds more variety to the game and also something else you have to take into account when making a mess in a room.

 

 That said, I read the Rollers have been brought into the talk... I see no problem with them at all either, just one step to the side and their jump attack misses you, you tunr around, the ball is history. you are under heavy fire? Well, priorotize the target you think will be more troublesome. Are they annoying when they hit you? Yes, a lot. That does not mean they are the ultimate weapon though, they have vulnerabilities easy to exploit, USE THEM.

 

 Unfoltunately, I can't say the same thing about scorpions. As of now, I have not found a way to easily deal with them other than getting close so they don't use the hook.... which is not much of a problem either, since if they don't pull me, i go to them and show them a few cooking techniques with the sword. Under heavy fire? Well... you are pretty much screwed unless you have the marvelous and life saver Squid Companion, also known as Shade. He is incredibly useful and does not mess your stealth kills. He is available in the the store at a discount price now, but if you buy two, you get its littler box for free... wait, I don't think that's a viable advertizing for it. But, yes, under haeavy fire, the scorpion can and will be a real trouble and nuisance. That hook really needs some rework badly and soon.

 

 Back to topic, RJ12's idea is good if you really read it, analize it and think properly about it. Taking cover will not be totally negated or useless, it will be just harder to use and will force players to think twice when and where to take cover.

 

 Also, just to mention that post that marines already flushes you out of cover. That's not true, at all. That or I never let them live enough. They just sit on their cover and from time to time a courageous marine would try to approach my position while I am regaining some shields, and we all know how dangerous is a lone marine... the food I prepare is more lethal...

Edited May 28, 2013 by HellEnforcer

[KageNoShini]

Assuming you've got the mods you need, maybe.

 

What if you are terribly unlucky with mods OR you're somewhat new to the game yet?

 

Balancing the game around Pro Players with all the mods is not the right direction to go because those without said mods/frames feel useless/squishy/etc.

who needs good or even great mods with ash/loki/nyx/vauban? bastille, shoot everything, even a mk 1 braton can do the job,ash and loki go invis and melee, skana is decent for it, fang/zoren work best I think, nyx can still just chaos and take a step back, stand in the open, and shoot.

 

so no, you don't have to be pro player, you just have to be a smart player.....and lvl 20 mobs are trash, unless ancients, then they are trash bullet sponges.

[Synxxx]

OP believes that we should all play the game *his* way, and is advocating poisonous changes to inflict his playstyle upon the rest of the community.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why this thread even got to 4 pages instead of just being laughed at and ignored is beyond me.

[ZWarhammer]

I would't encourage more enemies like scorpions they are not a threat but pure annoyance when you're trying to get from point A to point B.

[Kyte]

OP believes that we should all play the game *his* way, and is advocating poisonous changes to inflict his playstyle upon the rest of the community.

 

Why this thread even got to 4 pages instead of just being laughed at and ignored is beyond me.

Funny, I'd say the same of the "the game's too easy!" crowd and the "Rollers/Scorpions are fine the way it is!" crowd. At least MJ's playstyle matches what's been stated and shown in trailers.

[MXXVI]

Confusion. So much confusion.

 

A lot of confusion concerning cover, and cover systems.

 

Cover systems suck. They're a console invention, caused by the lack of keys available to gamepads, which resulted in console shooters removing the "crouch" and "lean" buttons in favour of a context-sensitive "one-button-does-all" approach.

 

 

COVER is not a bad thing, nor does it detract from the "ninja" nature of Warframe. Unless, that is, you think Warframe should become a button-mashing slash'em'up.

 

More to the point, the developers have already set the precedent of cover playing a big role in "proper" Warframe gameplay. Or did you not notice the pop-up cover available in Void missions?

 

The enemy take cover all the time. No player should EVER be punished for taking cover when needed. Adding more Railgun Moa-esque enemies to the game would do precisely this: a player in cover would begin taking excessive damage from an enemy that could magically see them, while they could not see the enemy.

 

This would become incredibly frustrating, and quite frankly, would break the game.

 

Put simply, if a significant percentage of enemy fire is coming from enemies that you cannot possibly see, this is bad game design.

 

 

"All of those things exist precisely because people hide in cover. Rollers, scorpions, etc were all clearly introduced because a number of players were hiding behind cover instead of actually playing the game." - Cpl_Facehugger

 

More confusion.

 

These things were introduced to balance the game, not to punish people for using cover that the developers carefully put in the game in the first place. The basic assumption here is wrong.

 

Grenades, and other such "cover-clearing" tools are given to AI in many games featuring cover, as a means to ensure that cover never becomes a sort of godmode, and that the player is never granted absolute certainty or safety.

 

Using cover and "actually playing the game" are not mutually exclusive.

 

If the game is "too easy", and if it can be demonstrated that players are winning fights too easily due to impenetrable cover and limited flanking AI, then the answer is not to change the very nature of the game, but to add more of what currently exists, in small, carefully-tested amounts.

 

More grenades. More AOE effects. More flanking. Just a little more, here and there, until the balance is restored.

 

At the moment, there is no evidence that cover is so drastically screwing with game balance.

 

 

And while we're on the subject of "what the developers intended" and "ninja badassery", I think everyone should stfu and watch the old Dark Sector trailer again:

 

 

 

Tell me: is Hayden Tenno somehow less badass because he ducks into the shadows? Is he failing to "actually play the game"?

[Carcharias]

@op

So I finally broke down and read most of this thread. And as I suspected it's absurd. Never mind difficulty is subjective, never mind the logic of shooting through supposedly solid objects. Big reason this OP is rediculis and almost down right arrogant is me playing a game on my computer. I have fun with this game. Sometimes I use cover (more in solo play) sometimes I don't. No one, not even the development team should tell me how to play the game. You reach more people by giving them a tool box and letting them choose how they would prefer to handle the problem provided. And you do use cover, there are walls. If there was really no cover ever there would just be a blank floor with you and the mobs, have fun. What you're suggesting is like giving someone a car and demanding that they never ever turn left, or never use reverse. I'm trying hard not to go to crazy here but do you really not see the tone of your underlying suggestion? Are you going to tell me what mods I should be using? What I should be drinking as I play the game? Which toon is the best?

I'm fine with your suggestion of whatever you want to do, after all this is place for opinions. I disagree with your idea of removing cover. But where I really have a big problem is when you tell me how to play, which is in essence what you have attempted to do over the space of several posts. If the devs take out the boxes I can shoot the mobs from all the way down the hallway. If the mobs can shoot through cover and not the players it will probably kill the game because "it won't feel fair". So I'll basically play however I most enjoy it (without hacks of course) and don't tell me how I should be playing, that sir is your opinion and the rest of us are not subject to it.

A little strongly worded and sarcastic, yea maybe, but this concept that I should play a certain way is IMO just as bad. Only difference is I am admittedly tactless.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Carcharias

[ValhaHazred]

He's not advocating the complete removal of cover damn it! He actively advocates what's know as dynamic cover where you stay in long enough to save you from a few bullets and then move to the next bunch, killing and being awesome as you go. All he dislikes is the people who hang out in one piece of cover and plink enemies from absolute safety forever.

Personally I advocate more aggressive AI and more powerful enemy grenades, but at least he is offering constructive ideas.

[Xylia]

He's not advocating the complete removal of cover damn it! He actively advocates what's know as dynamic cover where you stay in long enough to save you from a few bullets and then move to the next bunch, killing and being awesome as you go. All he dislikes is the people who hang out in one piece of cover and plink enemies from absolute safety forever.

Personally I advocate more aggressive AI and more powerful enemy grenades, but at least he is offering constructive ideas.

 

Um, hello?

 

I dislike the OP's suggestion and I hardly hide behind stuff and plink enemies from absolute safety forever...

 

1). THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE SAFETY. If you hide long enough, they WILL come and find you. Not right away but it WILL happen. If you've been seen/detected, MORE crap will continue to spawn. That room of 20+ enemies becomes 30+ enemies. You're not doing yourself any favors hiding for long periods of time. Not to mention, stuff will spawn BEHIND you and you'll get flanked if you wait long enough.

 

2). Why would you hide behind stuff endlessly when you can kill stuff much faster, and duck behind cover only to regen your shields?

 

3). In Multiplayer.... WHO GIVES YOU TIME TO HIDE? Right, nobody. Read the numerous threads about Rushing. Why would you hide when anybody with a Frost or Rhino can refill your health and shields with 3-4 seconds if you actually die?

 

4). In Singleplayer... WHY DO YOU CARE WHAT I DO IN SINGLEPLAYER?

Edited May 28, 2013 by Xylia

[Xylia]

who needs good or even great mods with ash/loki/nyx/vauban? bastille, shoot everything, even a mk 1 braton can do the job,ash and loki go invis and melee, skana is decent for it, fang/zoren work best I think, nyx can still just chaos and take a step back, stand in the open, and shoot.

 

so no, you don't have to be pro player, you just have to be a smart player.....and lvl 20 mobs are trash, unless ancients, then they are trash bullet sponges.

 

Vauban? How many newer players have Vauban, considering how freaking hard he is to obtain/build without plunking down plat?

Nyx? Same. She comes off of a somewhat later boss fight.

Ash? I forget who even drops Ash, same for Loki.

 

What about the people who are still using Excalibur or Mag? What are they supposed to do when they can't take cover long enough to fully regen their shields? You might say stuff like "use Bullet Attractor" etc... what happens when you run out of energy? Then what?

[NotaCobra]

I would say that another method to achieve the same result is to add more things like corpus turrets;

Enemies which have sight of many angles within a room and must either be focused first, or completely avoided.

[Xylia]

I would say that another method to achieve the same result is to add more things like corpus turrets;

Enemies which have sight of many angles within a room and must either be focused first, or completely avoided.

 

Or, yaknow, more flying enemies.

 

Like Ospreys.

 

Seems kinda dumb that Corpus make Ospreys that drop mines, Ospreys that leech from you, Ospreys that shield other Corpus.... but no Ospreys that have guns?

 

'Cept for the Fusion Moa drones... but I think those are horribly buggy -- I can shoot them and shoot them and shoot them and never hit the stupid things and then suddenly I'll see a 2 damage after 4-5 shots and it'll explode.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Xylia