Does Ash Need A Rework?

[Magneu]

Ash has been around for quite some time, and is our in house "ninja". His signature gameplay is (usually) Bladestorm spam to annihilate entire armies, and Teleporting to VIP units and assassinating them. His kit has gotten some changes, mostly Bladestorm and Teleport, but does he need more? I'm of the yes camp, but would like to get other player's opinions (if someone could throw together a strawpoll, I would love you long time).

 

Personally, changing Smoke Screen to a stationary cloud that Ash throws, blinding enemies in a good area, making Teleport free aim, and making Bladestorm more interactive would let me love Ash again. As is, his ultimate especially gets a little boring after the millionth Grineer mook you stab in the back. Reward players for coordinated interactivity with uber power, instead of just the good ol P42W.

[(XBOX)SylvEmily]

He's OP as is, making him more OP is madness.

[Flashwire]

Honestly I feel as if Ash falls short with his smoke screen being a stationary ability. If they were to allow him to cast mid-jump or while running, I feel he would have more options in terms of gameplay. My ninja needs some more love to that Teleport too.

[Drazhar14]

How to solo high level void missions:

Step 1, spam blade storm.

 

Step 2, keep spamming blade storm.

 

Step 3, see nullifier, hit cloak and shoot shield

 

Step 4, spam blade storm some more

 

What is wrong with this strategy? ;)

[Adaptor-Face]

bladestrom needs a rework, you press 4, you watch a cutscene, and things are dead

[Lord_of_Lords]

Someone made a post with some nice suggestions already about this.  You're referencing a lot of them.

 

I personally would love bladestorm to be a drain where my clones popped out of the shadows of enemies in a range around me and did their current animation.  I could watch or shoot my paris prime but either way the clones need the melee multiplier to still stack.

There could also be an ability augment that causes the smokebomb to cause melee attacks to count as stealth finisher damage for enemies caught inside.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Just making Teleport free aim with no other limitations will never stop being a bad idea. It would make Ash the highest mobility frame in the entire game, far exceeding both Volt and Zephyr. Not only that, it would be impossible to buff Volt and Zephyr to the point where they would have higher mobility than Ash, because it's not possible for anything to exceed the mobility of a free aim Teleport. A free aim Teleport is straight up superior to Tail Wind, and it doesn't make any sense that Ash, a non-mobility focused frame, should have higher mobility than the frame that was specifically designed to have the highest mobility.

 

Imagine if the following augment was added to the game:

Tornado augment - Cutting Winds. Tornado is now recastable. Casting Tornado on an enemy will deal 2000 finished damage and a guaranteed slash proc to all enemies within a 25m radius of the target. Tornadoes are summoned as normal.

 

This augment would obviously make Tornado straight up superior to Bladestorm, thus making Ash far less useful. A free aim Teleport would do exactly the same thing to Zephyr. If a free aim Teleport is okay, then Cutting Winds is okay as well.

 

That being said, I could support Teleport being changed to be a viable mobility tool. There are a ton of different ways to do that that don't involve destroying Zephyr's niche. I think my personal favorite is allowing Ash to teleport to shurikens he's thrown.

Edited September 2, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Eldnacpeek]

Honestly I feel as if Ash falls short with his smoke screen being a stationary ability. If they were to allow him to cast mid-jump or while running, I feel he would have more options in terms of gameplay. My ninja needs some more love to that Teleport too.

 

 

This^. That's all, in my personal opinion. If any drastic changes are made to Blade Storm, I'll accept them, but no way in hell am I agreeing with any fan concept, poorly made, 3rd Hysteria Blade Storm rework.

 

 

---

 

 

You will never stop with this argument.

Edited September 2, 2015 by LazerSkink

[Doom_Bunny]

Shuriken: The number of shuriken should increase per rank and it's homing capabilities need a fix (they are just all over the place at the moment)

 

Smoke screen: An actual smoke screen would be awesome. However I think having it come from his arm would be better then having an generic smoke grenade. That way you could spread a large smoke cloud without having to stand still.

 

Teleport: Having a free teleport would allow for Ash players to easily rush great distances. A better idea is to have one part free and one part targeted. So say within 1/4 of your maximum range you can free teleport. However outside that range you can only teleport to selected targets i.e allies, enemies, defence pod.

 

Bladestorm: Complete rework. It only hits 18 enemies, doesn't involve the player, and in pvp it's nerfed so hard that you wonder why you pressed 4 in the first place. It's really no wonder why people spam bladestorm it's terrible but you're practically immortal. Combine it with arcane trickery you practically go beyond god-like. 

 

My only idea for this is to see invisibility/smoke screen combine with the clones to do something that involves the player.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Postal_pat

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Teleport: Having a free teleport would allow for Ash players to easily rush great distances. A better idea is to have one part free and one part targeted. So say within 1/4 of your maximum range you can free teleport. However outside that range you can only teleport to selected targets i.e allies, enemies, defence pod.

 

That's a pretty decent idea, but keep in mind that 1/4 of 60m (Teleport's base range before mods) is still 20m, which could also be expanded to more than 40m with range mods. The exact stats are just details that can be easily modified, though. This concept is one of many good Teleport possibilities.

 

You will never stop with this argument.

 

As long as it retains its validity.

[Karlox]

Yes. Rework every single thing on Warframe. After the rework, rework the rework. Let's do reworkception until we even rework ourselves.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Yes. Rework every single thing on Warframe. After the rework, rework the rework. Let's do reworkception until we even rework ourselves.

 

So I herd u liek reworks...

 

So I reworked your rework so you can rework your reworks while reworking your reworks.

[Salacavalini]

Does Ash need a rework? If people want him to be desirable in high level teams, yes. Shuriken is weak, Smoke Screen is worse than Invisibility in most cases (and the cases where it isn't are very niche), Teleport and Blade Storm are just too damn slow to be useful in a team with properly modded guns.

 

Teleporting to one enemy and performing a slow finisher animation?

 

Or very slowly killing 3 enemies at a time up to a max of 18, or less if your team just shoots the marked enemies?

 

Not very useful in a horde shooter game. If Warframe rewarded fast kills of single targets, sure, Ash would be great. So would sniper rifles, but we all know what a terrible spot those are in, hence the upcoming buff in U18.

 

Ash is a pretty good solo frame. Not the best, but pretty good. Maybe that's his intended role. If not, then yes, he needs a rework.

[BlitzkriegBob]

I've been maining Ash for quite a while now, either solo and multi, and I don't think he needs a complete rework. Tweaks? Yes. Major change? No.

 

Shuriken: feels good as it is; would need a better homing though, but is quite usefull for killing flying ennemies. And you can cast while reloading, which is always good. Plus augment is kinda interesting.

 

Smoke screen: This ability already pops a cloud, which range is already affected by range mods. What about stagger time affected by duration mods as well? Also, the ability for the cloud to reduce damage taken inside (like, ennemy accuracy reduced by smoke)could be intersting. I think this would be a much more interesting augment than the current one, actually... But the ability to move outiside while remaining invisible MUST stay, otherwise you kill this frame.

 

Teleport: More or less fine; could target more objects (crates, cameras,...) and needs a few bugs to be removed (impossible to teleport to a guy on a stair or any floor that is not flat, no finisher triggered if ennemy is already affected by status, like radiation). Af first, I was thinking free teleport would be OK, but people stating it will kill Zephyr and Volt are right. More teleport-able object would be fine.

 

Bladestorm: THE big issue. Some people find it OP, some find it useless. I think the base is good, but it needs polishing. First, animation speed: should be increased, or maybe affected by Natural Talent. Second, multiple attacks on target: should be limited to 3 (one for Ash, one per clone), so that bleeding effect is finaly usefull. Finally, clones: I would like them to be affected by smoke screen and become invisible as well. No melee damage boost or anything, just invisibilty to avoid triggering alarms when cast.And of course, a few bugs need to be addressed. Everything else is fine to me. 

 

I still think Ash is a balanced frame: not too strong, not to weak, great for solo, good DPS for teamplay (depending on mission, though), and most important very fun to use.

[(XBOX)BAMMM Lightning]

The only issue I have with Ash is Shuriken. I recently got Ash Prime so I'm still learning the ropes, but it feels like Shuriken is like old Excal slash dash, a lackluster ability. lvl 30 and below sure it kills, but I'm only interested in end game/raid viability. Maybe have it's damage (both impact and bleed) increased by the melee counter? It would work well as a follow up to Blade Storm and maybe if you run Rising Storm. Also activating Smoke Screen in mid air is something I'd like. Sometimes the game tells me "Cannot activate in the air" just because I step on slightly higher flooring. That gets really annoying when you're surrounded by lvl 40 peeps. 

[swizzybeatzjamz]

Yeah I think he needs a rework a cutscene isn't very rewarding and fun

[xLordKogax]

That's a pretty decent idea, but keep in mind that 1/4 of 60m (Teleport's base range before mods) is still 20m, which could also be expanded to more than 40m with range mods. The exact stats are just details that can be easily modified, though. This concept is one of many good Teleport possibilities.

 

 

As long as it retains its validity.

 

Theres no Validation Your topic is always No to Free-aim Teleport.

 

I made a sugguestion about Free-Aim Teleport and You and most ignored when I said Free-aim should be Short Ranged 10ms say

Teleport should drop choke clouds that stun enemies like My Smoke screen concept

 

Choke Cloud seems to be popular now amoungst Ash fans.

Its common sense, this will grant Ash major CC and add Validation to Ash players in Coop instead of Folks being mad for Ash being in the Squad

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Theres no Validation Your topic is always No to Free-aim Teleport.

 

I made a sugguestion about Free-Aim Teleport and You and most ignored when I said Free-aim should be Short Ranged 10ms say

Teleport should drop choke clouds that stun enemies like My Smoke screen concept

 

Choke Cloud seems to be popular now amoungst Ash fans.

Its common sense, this will grant Ash major CC and add Validation to Ash players in Coop instead of Folks being mad for Ash being in the Squad

 

I don't remember you saying that. I'm fairly certain I didn't see that post for some reason.

 

A short-ranged free aim Teleport that drops smoke clouds is an excellent idea. It would mean that Teleport's primary usage would still be for combat, but now it would give you an additional option for disorienting enemies and gaining a combat advantage. Very ninja-ish. There could even be an animation for Ash dissolving into smoke when he uses Teleport and re-materializing where he teleports to.

Edited September 3, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Rabidbluedeath]

Just making Teleport free aim with no other limitations will never stop being a bad idea. It would make Ash the highest mobility frame in the entire game, far exceeding both Volt and Zephyr. Not only that, it would be impossible to buff Volt and Zephyr to the point where they would have higher mobility than Ash, because it's not possible for anything to exceed the mobility of a free aim Teleport. A free aim Teleport is straight up superior to Tail Wind, and it doesn't make any sense that Ash, a non-mobility focused frame, should have higher mobility than the frame that was specifically designed to have the highest mobility.

 

Imagine if the following augment was added to the game:

Tornado augment - Cutting Winds. Tornado is now recastable. Casting Tornado on an enemy will deal 2000 finished damage and a guaranteed slash proc to all enemies within a 25m radius of the target. Tornadoes are summoned as normal.

 

This augment would obviously make Tornado straight up superior to Bladestorm, thus making Ash far less useful. A free aim Teleport would do exactly the same thing to Zephyr. If a free aim Teleport is okay, then Cutting Winds is okay as well.

 

That being said, I could support Teleport being changed to be a viable mobility tool. There are a ton of different ways to do that that don't involve destroying Zephyr's niche. I think my personal favorite is allowing Ash to teleport to shurikens he's thrown.

Aren't you forgetting that wormhole exists? And teleports more than one person? And yes I've read the other posts in this thread. I just don't get this argument as nova has been out for awhile. Volt and Zephyr are still played as well. So clearly a free aim teleport wouldn't murder either frame. Loki can already come close by switching with his decoy and he hasn't caused Volt or Zephyr to go extinct either. Speed its a great ability, I don't think its THE reason why people play Volt though. If it is then the tailwind augment would seem to attack it pretty hard, just my 2 cents. Zephyr also has Turbulence which is a great damage reduction, a great CC ult (maybe not for allies but just to get enemies to stop shooting its really good), and a sweet sweet passive of low grav; I love Zephyr and would still play her plenty with a free aim teleport. 

 

Shuriken: Sure, add some small utility. We can't forget this is a 1 ability and few of those are incredibly powerful. Or change it to be a debuff instead of damage. (shuriken were for distractions not killing IRL) 

 

Smokescreen: As long as you don't touch it making me invisible I don't care what you do. More than a stagger (3 second disorient?) would be nice but I think this ability is more or less fine as is. (Its not as long as Loki's but its 20 energy cheaper).

 

Teleport: Without throwing out the ability I think a free aim is the only thing that can really help it. You could hold down the button for a free aim and just tap it for a targeted, it would still retain its lifestrike synergy it does currently but would be useful in other areas as well. I don't expect the buff for free, a decreased range or increased energy cost on a free aim teleport would be fine with me. It is the ability that needs the most help on Ash currently IMO. Maybe make it so you have to target a surface to teleport to, not just air.

 

Bladestorm: Its great, but I will concede it gets boring sometimes. Instead of doing something ridiculous like some stupid toggle or the clones move with you just make it so all duplicate hits are made with clones instead of ash himself and end the ability early. So if you target 3 Heavy gunners you hit 1 the clones hit 2 then you stop but the clones keep going until your hit count is finished or they are dead. This would fix a lot of peoples complaints about it taking forever while retaining most of the functionality people enjoy currently.

 

Ash needs tweaks not reworks, like plenty of other frames in the game. I really have to wonder at people who "like" a frame but want every ability changed. To me that is liking an idea not the actual frame and should not justify changing things people like currently.

[LAWD]

Well on what i think Ash is missing from other warframes is a theme, Sure he a ninja but what makes him a ninja. In the warframe universe it almost wouldn't make sense, just some ninja dude in a suit. He doesn't have true "powers" from the void if i should put it that way.

My opinion and suggestion on him would be that he should be a smoke typa character, similar to the one from MK series, and have his powers work around that theme. It also has some logistic sense once implemented to the rework of his powers.

Alright since his theme is smoke;

 

SHURIKEN (i basically got nothing here except more shurikens)

 

SMOKE-SCREEN - basically the talk of having the smoke spread out more and choke people is really good, just as quoted below, should come from his hand, probably like a flamethrower, but much faster. (dont wanna waste time while fully crowded)

 OR him running around invisible after activation, and spraying the desired area with smoke, this could be botha toggle and drain fro the smoke, and probably duration for the invisibility. My ideas are still pretty rough.

 

Smoke screen: An actual smoke screen would be awesome. However I think having it come from his arm would be better then having an generic smoke grenade. That way you could spread a large smoke cloud without having to stand still.

TELEPORT - the free aim thing has no limitations whats so ever, so i say, only teleport beyond 10 m, Imagine activating teleport while running round and teleport right into some wall or endless falling pit? i see bugs.

My opinion is with the smoke theme, he transforms into smoke and could just swosh acroosss the map like vapor. I imagine it been like he transfroms into smoke form, similar to the clones in the next power idea i got, and phases through anything, gaining speed, much like Volt's "speed" . In addition he can still teleport by bullet jumping and aiming to desired location. This will have change to game mechanics.

*Note, he doesn't go invisible* but probably untouchable since he'll phase through S#&$.

Now this ability will be a duration based, since it needs hella lot of limitations. Probably some toggle to quickly get in and out of the Smoke mode.

 

 

BLADESTORM - truly needs more control and interaction on it, i saw somewhre in the forums, someody posted about having the clones appear from the shadows and run up to the enemies and put them in a lock. This is actually pretty neat, especially with the smoke theme, the shadows could look smoky instead of just been holograms. But it should feel more ultimate, i say the clones execute them.

How this should work in my opinion- Aim at a target/targets (if grouped) and activate it just like now, and the clones will appear and run up to them.

It's like a mix of Equinox's sleep ability but the enemies still are able to fight for freedom and this effect is still affected by strenght and steel charge mods. The higher the strength, the stronger the lock/execution.

 

With this smoke theme, he will should be quick enought to cast abilities, cause ya know, wind and smoke thing..

[Ezariel]

For me Ash definitly need a rework and redesign.

 

1. Shuriken

 

Becasue Hikou and Kunai weapon is not enough... Useless skill.

 

2. Smoke Screen

Good.

 

3. Teleport

Kinda useless.

 

4. Blade Storm

 

Press 4 to turn on cut scene. Crap like hell.

 

Design:

 

Ash looks condemned. Especialy Ash Prime. Look at this frame. He have a really intresting designed armor, looks like chitin armor, is really, really nice. Ash prime looks totaly like samurai. Just look at that armor on hes arms and legs, and helmet. Is a totaly future samurai! But why he have a flat chestand thighs? This looks horrible.Flat, gray parts of his body looks like if they were unfinished. Ash (especialy Ash prime!) as a whole should be covered with armor for AWESOME LOOKING!

 

Ash Prime with Dragon Nikana looks a totaly, totayl AWESOME. Much better than any other frame.

 

And for me this frame should be a samurai instead of ninja, so hes abilities should get a rework.

[(PSN)abb12355]

Aren't you forgetting that wormhole exists? And teleports more than one person? And yes I've read the other posts in this thread. I just don't get this argument as nova has been out for awhile. Volt and Zephyr are still played as well. So clearly a free aim teleport wouldn't murder either frame. Loki can already come close by switching with his decoy and he hasn't caused Volt or Zephyr to go extinct eithewr. Speed its a great ability, I don't think its THE reason why people play Volt though. If it is then the tailwind augment would seem to attack it pretty hard, just my 2 cents. Zephyr also has Turbulence which is a great damage reduction, a great CC ult (maybe not for allies but just to get enemies to stop shooting its really good), and a sweet sweet passive of low grav; I love Zephyr and would still play her plenty with a free aim teleport.

Shuriken: Sure, add some small utility. We can't forget this is a 1 ability and few of those are incredibly powerful. Or change it to be a debuff instead of damage. (shuriken were for distractions not killing IRL)

Smokescreen: As long as you don't touch it making me invisible I don't care what you do. More than a stagger (3 second disorient?) would be nice but I think this ability is more or less fine as is. (Its not as long as Loki's but its 20 energy cheaper).

Teleport: Without throwing out the ability I think a free aim is the only thing that can really help it. You could hold down the button for a free aim and just tap it for a targeted, it would still retain its lifestrike synergy it does currently but would be useful in other areas as well. I don't expect the buff for free, a decreased range or increased energy cost on a free aim teleport would be fine with me. It is the ability that needs the most help on Ash currently IMO. Maybe make it so you have to target a surface to teleport to, not just air.

Bladestorm: Its great, but I will concede it gets boring sometimes. Instead of doing something ridiculous like some stupid toggle or the clones move with you just make it so all duplicate hits are made with clones instead of ash himself and end the ability early. So if you target 3 Heavy gunners you hit 1 the clones hit 2 then you stop but the clones keep going until your hit count is finished or they are dead. This would fix a lot of peoples complaints about it taking forever while retaining most of the functionality people enjoy currently.

Ash needs tweaks not reworks, like plenty of other frames in the game. I really have to wonder at people who "like" a frame but want every ability changed. To me that is liking an idea not the actual frame and should not justify changing things people like currently.

Last time I checked, wormhole can only be casted once. Also, wormhole makes you overshoot your enemies. Tailwind is a better option for accurate landings.

[xLordKogax]

For me Ash definitly need a rework and redesign.

 

1. Shuriken

 

Becasue Hikou and Kunai weapon is not enough... Useless skill.

 

2. Smoke Screen

Good.

 

3. Teleport

Kinda useless.

 

4. Blade Storm

 

Press 4 to turn on cut scene. Crap like hell.

 

Design:

 

Ash looks condemned. Especialy Ash Prime. Look at this frame. He have a really intresting designed armor, looks like chitin armor, is really, really nice. Ash prime looks totaly like samurai. Just look at that armor on hes arms and legs, and helmet. Is a totaly future samurai! But why he have a flat chestand thighs? This looks horrible.Flat, gray parts of his body looks like if they were unfinished. Ash (especialy Ash prime!) as a whole should be covered with armor for AWESOME LOOKING!

 

Ash Prime with Dragon Nikana looks a totaly, totayl AWESOME. Much better than any other frame.

 

And for me this frame should be a samurai instead of ninja, so hes abilities should get a rework.

 

Samurai instead of Ninja? *sighs*

 

Yoshimitsu looks like a Samurai cuz of the Armor and Helmet but that doesnt mean Yoshimitsu is a Samurai

 

 

You call this a Samurai?

Yoshimitsu is a student of Manji Ninjutsu. Dressed in Samurai Battle Armor.

[Rabidbluedeath]

Last time I checked, wormhole can only be casted once. Also, wormhole makes you overshoot your enemies. Tailwind is a better option for accurate landings.

What do you mean by once? Once until it runs out again? I'm not sure what overshooting enemies has to do with it. I was talking about wormhole as a free aim teleport option, I do think wormhole is superior to tailwind for getting to an exact spot on a map while tailwind is superior in terms of overall mobility. My main point was a free aim teleport wont really negatively impact Zephyr or Volt. 

[(PSN)The_Shadow465]

ASH is good and great nothing wrong about him so just leave him how he is if u dont like ash then dont play him