Why Do People Complain About Mesa But Not Frost?

[BaronVonBangin]

Damage frames power spam has always been an issue. I am merely explaining why people complain about them, and why Frost isn't a contender in that debate. Way back when there were only 4 frames in the entire game, Volt was 4 spam master and was complained about, until it was nerfed into the ground.

 

How to "deal" with them is a delicate issue, with no clear solution that will please both sides. It is either too powerful and makes other player inconsequential, or is too weak and not worth the energy cost. There was once a suggestion that "ultimates" should have cool down timers, to restrict their spam. However, the stat inflation that comes with "endgame" enemies, made spam of damage abilities necessary. The better solution would've been to keep abilities tied to utility, instead of straight damage; but we're too far down the road to pick that other path now.

How do you think tying a "percent health" damage mechanic to damage abilities would work? Not so much that high level enemies are being one-shot, but enough that the damage is more respectable than guns in that situation.

[BaronVonBangin]

Oh look the same line of thinking that got Mag nerfed into irrelevance is being brought back to try and nerf Frost. When will you accept the real issue is Mesa's peacemaker and stop trying to throw other warframes under the bus? What will be next? Let's nerf Limbo because his cataclysm makes Mesa invisible while also giving her energy? Sure, lets also setup an appointment to have Trinity's EV nerfed another patch after that one too.

Well, if you read a bit more into the thread, I'm trying to find out what the community thinks is an acceptable amount of damage for a damage focused frame to do is. I've raised the question, 'do you think invincibility holds back the balancing of late game enemy damage?'

I think they're perfectly valid questions to ask and I used Mesa as an example since she is (in the forum's mind) an effective damage dealer. If I were to use Ember's WoF as a hypothetical effective damage ability, would she need a nerf too? If so, in what regards and why?

[DxAdder]

Oh look the same line of thinking that got Mag nerfed into irrelevance is being brought back to try and nerf Frost. When will you accept the real issue is Mesa's peacemaker and stop trying to throw other warframes under the bus? What will be next? Let's nerf Limbo because his cataclysm makes Mesa invisible while also giving her energy? Sure, lets also setup an appointment to have Trinity's EV nerfed another patch after that one too.

 

Trinity EV is going to get Nerfed that's for sure, it's a major cause of Frames having unlimited energy to spam there abilities.

 

If anything Trinity should get Nerfed first. Unlimited energy allows any frame to spam there abilities NOT just Peace Maker.

[BaronVonBangin]

Trinity EV is going to get Nerfed that's for sure, it's a major cause of Frames having unlimited energy to spam there abilities.

 

If anything Trinity should get Nerfed first. Unlimited energy allows any frame to spam there abilities NOT just Peace Maker.

Do you think that will result in energy restores being looked at as well?

[DxAdder]

Do you think that will result in energy restores being looked at as well?

 

Ya Im sure that they would put them on a timer so that cant be abused as well.

[Fyos]

Really no need to get overly emotional/hostile. But I do wonder at what point is invincibility okay and high damage isn't.

Other Tenno have said, if Frosts ability to make allies invincible is gone then other invincibility powers would be used instead. To me, that raises issues on how much damage enemies are doing to the point that high duration invincibility is a MUST.

I also use the Mesa as an example of a high damage frame. If, for instance, Ember's WoF ability was worth using, would that warrant a nerf? Is direct killing power on abilities bad?

 

When enemies start scaling too high for their damage to be ignored, it's inevitable that people are going to be looking for survivability options.

 

Why do you think enemies doing too much damage at high rounds is a problem? Because it's hard?

 

It's supposed to get out of hand. That's the entire point.

[Chhkt]

Here's an idea. Reduce the base damage and range of all abilities cast by 50% when used within snow globe, cataclysm, absorb, etc.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Xcedis

[Fyos]

Here's an idea. Reduce the base damage and range of all abilities cast by 50% when used within snow globe, cataclysm, absorb, etc.

 

What does that really accomplish?

[S0V3REiGN]

What does that really accomplish?

 

It accomplishes nothing. At the end of the day Mesa can achieve 95% damage mitigation as is. For the hell of it took her and tested her ability to face tank 20 level 100 heavy gunners and let me tell you she can take a lot of damage before going down. she doesnt even need frost bubble. Players are just lazy enough to not want to come off peacemaker to activate shatter shield.

Edited September 3, 2015 by S0V3REiGN

[SpaceBucket]

I wonder if using Mesa as an excuse was how Mag's  augment got nerfed.

 

Let's nerf every frame that can help Mesa so that the only viable party is to use 4x Mesa.

[(PSN)Redemption_015]

Stop trying to get other frames nerfed because you love the 'win without effort' button on Mesa.

The major difference between other frames and Mesa, is that their ultimates don't automatically target everything within a mile radius and insta kill it. Mesa's 4th doesn't require much strategy and can be spammed easily, subsequently making her dull to play and annoying to other people.

[Clemency42]

if people are enjoying spamming one key, let em . why all the fuss about mesa anyway ?  it's not like it hurts you is it ? if you dont like em just dont use em . 

Mesa is the community's new trigger word.

[DxAdder]

Stop trying to get other frames nerfed because you love the 'win without effort' button on Mesa.

The major difference between other frames and Mesa, is that their ultimates don't automatically target everything within a mile radius and insta kill it. Mesa's 4th doesn't require much strategy and can be spammed easily, subsequently making her dull to play and annoying to other people.

 

Like it takes any skill to press #2, #3,#4 onTrinity...

Button Mash E for Exalted Blade

Press #4 for Sayrn or Nova...

Or just run around invisible the entire mission.

 

The only reason Peace Maker or any of the above are an issues is that the have access to nearly unlimited energy and no cool down timers.

[BaronVonBangin]

Stop trying to get other frames nerfed because you love the 'win without effort' button on Mesa.

That's definitely not what I've been saying at all this thread.

[Ryme]

How do you think tying a "percent health" damage mechanic to damage abilities would work? Not so much that high level enemies are being one-shot, but enough that the damage is more respectable than guns in that situation.

 

That is still essentially the same problem, just on a different scale. People will either complain that abilities that don't kill enemies aren't worth the energy cost, or are too powerful and makes it pointless for other players to be in a mission, especially with the hoard/swarm enemy spawning format the game uses, which essentially encourages spam of weapons and powers.

 

Because here's the thing. not everyone is in agreement on what "difficulty level" the game should be at. Some people want frames that run around with an "Iwin" button. Others want a game that can randomly kill players with no direct means of countering. It's why some people play Diablo 3 and others play Dark Souls; different strokes for different folks.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Ryme

[BraverLeech37]

even if you took out frost's bubble and limbos banish mesa would till be op as nothing would get close enough to hurt her so mesa needs her 4 nerfed

[Mistyclown]

Since we have this thread..

 

I dont like his/her? skill to pass around like the "Shootingg Gallery" that jam the guns. Im selfish so I want the skill to stay with me until the duration ends. Because the skill transfer to other and I will be left defenseless sorrounded by enemies. The skill should be help me to escape or my chance to kill enemies while their gun is jam. So selfish am I?-_-

[BaronVonBangin]

That is still essentially the same problem, just on a different scale. People will either complain that abilities that don't kill enemies aren't worth the energy cost, or are too powerful and makes it pointless for other players to be in a mission, especially with the hoard/swarm enemy spawning format the game uses, which essentially encourages spam of weapons and powers.

 

Because here's the thing. not everyone is in agreement on what "difficulty level" the game should be at. Some people want frames that run around with an "Iwin" button. Others want a game that can randomly kill players with no direct means of countering. It's why some people play Diablo 3 and others play Dark Souls; different strokes for different folks.

You could also make damaging abilities scale depending on enemy level+base damage or whatever. That way you can have nuking frames still making it through the wimp enemies and still doing damage to tougher enemies without necessarily destroying then in one shot.

While I understand the whole Diablo to Dark Souls analogy, I don't think it really applies when your just trying to find balance to an already existing game mechanic (press button, blow hordes of enemies up with space magic) in a game wl that has an established gameplay pattern no matter how much you mix up damage balance. That's like saying changing how the Paladin's damage for Smite is applied changes the game into something else.

[(PSN)Redemption_015]

Like it takes any skill to press #2, #3,#4 onTrinity...

Button Mash E for Exalted Blade

Press #4 for Sayrn or Nova...

Or just run around invisible the entire mission.

The only reason Peace Maker or any of the above are an issues is that the have access to nearly unlimited energy and no cool down timers.

You clearly didn't read my post properly. I pointed out that all you had to do with Mesa is press 4, sit back and hold the fire button.

Mesa's ult provides no utility, unlike Nova who provides the speed reduction on enemies. Saryns ult kills large groups its true, but it does not kill everything before it even sets foot in the room your currently in. You also have to be in range to cast it and it's cast time comes into play as well.

Loki is an entirely irrelevant matter so I'm not going to comment on that.

Excal's exalted Blade, again, does not insta kill everything in every single direction imaginable under five seconds. In many cases I've swiped at an enemy, only to have Mesa one-shot it before my wave even reached the enemy.

All of these frame ults require timing and a certain level of effort. Mesa's does not.

[(XBOX)BAMMM Lightning]

I read lots of complaints about Mesa, ranging from 'she's too strong' and 'she's boring/makes the game boring.'  But wouldn't a lot of those problems be solved if she couldn't sit inside a bubble of invincibility?

 

The whole downside to her 4 is the fact that she can't move at all.  She's a sitting target that's trying to kill as much as she can before she herself is killed. Frost completely takes away that weakness and then incorrectly turns people's ire towards the frame getting all the kills.

 

How many farming and camping issues would be solved if there wasn't a massive bubble of 'you can't kill me'?  It seems to me Frost is the real reason we aren't allowed to fight against high level enemies. His bubbles are the only thing that are strong enough to counteract the insane damage that high levels put out.  If that mechanic didn't exist,wouldn't that damage imbalance be looked into? 

 

I don't hate on Frost, but I think his Snow Globe is waaaaaayy strong.  It seems to me that since everyone playing with a Frost benefits from his Snow Globe they don't complain since he isn't the one 'stealing' all the kills. 

 

What do you think Tenno?

 

When/if Mesa's 4 gets scaled down, it's going to be that much more difficult to get to wave 40. More time/energy for the same rewards, when people could have simply asked for no Mesas or stop treating the game like it's a competition.

 

It's like that saying "You don't know what you have until you lose it". Mesa's 4 doesn't bother me one bit. With nullifiers and healers, I'm definitely not simply standing idly watching our Mesa do work.

 

But that's just me.   

[(PSN)lupowolfen]

Are you serious? Pressing 4, without the need to hold another button, to kill everything ( even if it is not in sight ) in 1 sec isn´t braindead?

Saryn, Excalibur, Frost only to mention a few can kill faster, more effective and higher level then Mesa is capable of.

 

Don't think so.

[federally]

if people are enjoying spamming one key, let em . why all the fuss about mesa anyway ? it's not like it hurts you is it ? if you dont like em just dont use em .

It doesn't "hurt" me, however it decreases my enjoyment of the game.

The problem isn't that it's too easy for mesa, the problem is that 4 spam takes away opportunity for the rest of the team to actually play the game and Mesa is the current best example of the problem.

[SoulSpectre]

Because Mesa Hate is the next "cool" thing. It's the new version of "YOLO", "SWAG", "420", etc.

Seriously, these people need to stfu because they are selfish and think only of themselves. They feel like they should have their say in a game they don't own. They feel like others should play the way they do and view the game in their own perspective. Mesa lovers like me get to see 1000+ hate posts a day and those haters say 'rework' like it's their game! I don't like spamming Peacemaker, but no! I get insulted in the forums daily!. I love using Mesa? Then I am labeled as a lazy player. I am labeled as someone who watches a movie while holding LMB. I am labeled as a skilless player. In all honesty, I am not. Stop saying rework like you own the game, play solo or with friends if you don't like seeing a Mesa! Oh you feel like you are cheated because you have to "work" to aim and shoot while a Mesa kills everything in sight? Well, let me remind you that this is a video game. If you feel cheated in a co-op PvE game then I seriously urge you to reconsider your views in life.

Sincerely, a player who's tired of Mesa hate bs.

Edited September 3, 2015 by SoulSpectre

[Helch0rn]

One of Frosts changes was that his Snowglobe now has a health pool. At higher ranked missions, this becomes highly inconvenient, especially with HRoF mobs.

Bu-but mah precious build! Why would I drop efficiency, survivability and damage for something as silly as Rush?!

Snow globe always had a 4sec invulnerablility phase and a health pool. They just removed the timer