Mesa+Frost (Toxicity And My Gaming Experience So Far)

[Dom1nati0n]

It's been my experience in competitive gaming, Dota 2, League of Legends, Heroes of the Storm, that there is a phrase people use for fundamental gameplay aspects that are easily abused, overly abused (despite ease), or generally unfavorable to some or all of the people playing the game at the time.

I realize Warframe is not a competitive game in the same sense as a MOBA, and is not immediately comparable to a MOBA. However they do share some similarities. They're both seeking a balance. They're both so chock full of stats/characters/mechanics, that not everything works out optimally for everyone all of the time.

More often than not, players are referred to as being Toxic, when their behavior is immature, irresponsible to their teams, or generally unpleasant for a number of potential reasons. The less used but more important thing here, is that Champions, Heroes, And in this case, Warframes, can be Toxic for the same reasons. You might have guessed at least one of the frames I'm interested in addressing by this point. But here goes nothing.

Mesa.

Is the most Toxic frame of them all. Most of you know why, but I'll be fair and brief. She is the seed of evil that plants negative emotions in video games. She is the Riven, She is the Sniper. Here's why.

1. Her Number four

2. The gameplay that ensues.

It's that simple. I've never seen anything so Toxic since wallhacks, aimbots, and World of Warcraft was invented. This should have been addressed by now, It's gross. Just that simple. No excuses, Unless we're going to add behind cover shooting as a proper mechanic. Which is also gross, but then at least we're on the same page, and I know to just put the lipstick on and embrace the fact that I'm probably not top tonight.

Frost.

This might surprise some people. Why, you say? But I luuvvv me some frost, Doesn't everyone? It's simple really.

1.Snowglobe

2.The gameplay that ensues.

But I'm not going to break down frost, and why he's ridiculous. He's not, It's a core gameplay issue that lay behind our frosty friend. There are too many abilities in the game that say "Camping is cool".

I'm gonna break this down:

I play MOBA's. There are Characters, Mechanics, Rules to be bent and sometimes broken, And glorious, oh glorious balancing issues up the wazoo. Here's the thing. No matter what anyone says to me, I understand the fundamental process of winning a game, because it's like a board game. You take objectives, you gain power, you win the game. This is a process that is for me personally most relative to board games such as chess, so I'll reference that as well for you non-MOBA fish of the sea.

MOBA PLAYERS READ HERE - Despite all balancing issues, I have never played a game that had a champion that literally, stopped you from being able to lose. Ever. It's not a thing. No champion ever said hey guys I have this really cool move where I you know, Stop objectives from being taken. Because that would be silly. Wouldn't it.

CHESS PLAYERS READ HERE - Imagine you're playing against Frost. He is down to his knight, his bishop, his queen and his king. You are dominating this game. He then proceeds to Snowglobe his king. See what I'm saying? Are you ever gonna %#^!ing checkmate him. Or is the whole point of the game now mute because this just pressed one button.

NON CHESS/MOBA PLAYERS READ HERE - Enjoy your girlfriend, This isn't muggle business.

Now I understand, there are counter-arguments to both of these lines of reasoning (LOL) No. There's not.

Frost impinges on core aspects of certain game modes making them heavily reliant (solely?) on frost based teams, and "I can't believe it's not MESA" destroys effort, and the model of "Work hard and you can in fact achieve your goals" that this game carries as a core value up and only up until you reach a certain point in the star chart we all love/hate.

I want people to enjoy this wonderful game. And with 24 frames to choose from, some are going to shine, and some are designed to shine. Establishing a balance that allows players to freely choose how they play the game, and making the game a fun experience for all involved, really is the hard part. But I have faith that DE sees this Meta-game as the Toxic environment is has become, and will choose to resolve this issue. Because I only need two frames, And a AAA with an EV build to satisfy the current Meta.

And before anyone decides to go ham all over the huge point I missed, Yes. You can decide not to play into the current Meta, but ask yourselves if the overall community doesn't suffer due to Tenno who believe in abusing the current flaws with two of our fellow frames.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Dom1nati0n
Cleaning language

[Grulos]

#1 solution:

 

Don't. Play. PUGS.

[Fifield]

All I can say is you ain't seen nothing yet.  At least Mesa looks great when he's ulting.  Saryn just looks like she farts and everything dies.

 

You think Frost is bad?  Nova can make all enemies on a map incapable of doing anything for about a minute and a half.

 

You've got Trinity who either spends her time spamming 2 every couple of seconds, being the only warframe who can provide significant amounts of energy -- many frames are banned from absorbing that energy while ulting.  Or she nukes herself every 30 seconds, making her whole team invulnerable 95% of the time.

 

The forums are the worst though.  Any suggestions that this mess is reworked bring out howls of protest.  Particularly the General forum.

Apart from that, great game.  Try to not get too addicted.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Fifield

[ThePrimarchSystem]

Frost is mainly used in Defense. And you already "camp" mandatorily in Defense missions generally, Frost is just there to provide protection that is needed. 

Your argument is invalid.

 

On a side note, you dont necessarily need Frost if you can kill enemies faster than they can kill you, or the cryopod, but that is something not highly common in pug games, so people prefer to bring along a Frost just to have some protection, so that you can walk away for a minute to grab a drink, or tab out for a second to put on the music you like.

Also as a person who plays Chess, Snowglobe example on King makes absolute no sense. 

A lots of things can be said against your whining, but I'm too lazy to give you a full counteract. Simple solution, as Grulos said, Do not play with pugs. And leave Frost alone. Mesa is broken agreed, but if you dont one, Get off your stingy arse, Use your own key, set your own rules.

 

[RazrOutlaw]

So mesa and frost actually don't allow you to lose? THEN GG GUYS, excuse me while I delete all my other warframes, playing 'till wave 40 in T1 defense must be quite an enjoyment,  the combo with mesa, frost & trini is great for defense, wanna know why? peacemaker is designed to deal aoe dps, which is great for wave clearings, thus, it's great for defense, frost snowglobe is designed to protect anything that is inside of it, thus, great for defense, and well, trinity <3, she is perfect, a godlike frame that can provide the team with energy and heal them in a long endurance mission is always welcomed, but what happens when the broken enemy scalling that warframe has kicks in? I'll tell ya, mesa, trini, frost, the snowglobe, the cryopod, your specters, your sentinels,your kubrow, everything gets 1 shotted by a bombard's guided missile ogris, saying a great team comp isn't allowing you to loose only means you are retreating early from the fight.

 

Edit: completely forgot about how not only damage enemy scaling is broken, enemy armor is aswell, if you decide not to run with 4 CP, even if you run with 3, It gets to a point where you need to unload a full clip of your 4 forma soma prime to take out a heavy gunner with only 10% of his armor (3 corrosive proyections = 90% armor)

Edited September 6, 2015 by RazrOutlaw

[Dom1nati0n]

All I can say is you ain't seen nothing yet.  At least Mesa looks great when he's ulting.  Saryn just looks like she farts and everything dies.

 

You think Frost is bad?  Nova can make all enemies on a map incapable of doing anything for about a minute and a half.

 

You've got Trinity who either spends her time spamming 2 every couple of seconds, being the only warframe who can provide significant amounts of energy -- many frames are banned from absorbing that energy while ulting.  Or she nukes herself every 30 seconds, making her whole team invulnerable 95% of the time.

 

The forums are the worst though.  Any suggestions that this mess is reworked bring out howls of protest.  Particularly the General forum.

Apart from that, great game.  Try to not get too addicted.

I've been playing since Volt was one of the Warframes you could start with.  I'm familiar with other Toxic elements of the game.  And of course, people will howl.  Cynicism will ensue.  But when someone pisses in my Wheaties in the morning, It doesn't stop me liking Wheaties.  It just sucks.  Also there are reasons I chose Frost, and Mesa.  They are truly the most impactful, with the ability to deny the loss of objectives, and the ability to create a map wide buzz kill.

[tinyranitar]

No. They are fundamentally different. 

 

About Frost.

 

Of course, one would reasonably camp around the defense Objective. If you don't, then you are the one that has to change.

 

About Mesa:

 

She is discussed a lot actually, so I won't have any comment on that. But there are a few things:

- "Everyone wants to be her". Nope.

- "Aimbot" - Then AoE is fine?

 

And she is no Riven. Don't compare LoL to Warframe. One is a PvP and one is a PvE game.

 

You have to put this through your head: Warframe is a PvE game. PvE game. PvE game. PvE Game. PvE GAMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[tinyranitar]

with the ability to deny the loss of objectives, and the ability to create a map wide buzz kill.

How is protecting your pods that have no means of offense a deny of Objective? 

 

Mapwide buzz kill? Expect tatical nukes when you have an objective to fullfill. If you want kicks and giggles go solo.

[p3z1]

You do know that this is a co-op game, and you are comparing this game to PvP games (MOBAs like DotA 2 and LoL, chess).

 

Frames are built for specific purposes. Some excel at none (TBH ember), some excel at some (frost = defense, nekros = survival), and some excel at everything (loki, mesa).

 

Now I agree with mesa, she needs a rework on her 4, badly.

 

Frost is another thing. He is actually in a good spot IMO. As mucha s you see his snowglobe as a camper's wet dream, it's supposed to be like that. He excels in defense-esque missions (MobiDef, Def, Excavation, interception to some extent). Removing his snow globe means removing utility in his kit, making him less useful.

 

Instead of focusing on frames being OP but are balanced (frost), why not focus on the useless/broken frames atm (mesa).

 

Edit: Frost becomes mandatory for defense, especially when you don't have a full squad (1-2 players only) and in a hard scenario (T4Def, high waves in general)

Edited September 6, 2015 by p3z1

[Dom1nati0n]

So mesa and frost actually don't allow you to lose? THEN GG GUYS, excuse me while I delete all my other warframes, playing 'till wave 40 in T1 defense must be quite an enjoyment,  the combo with mesa, frost & trini is great for defense, wanna know why? peacemaker is designed to deal aoe dps, which is great for wave clearings, thus, it's great for defense, frost snowglobe is designed to protect anything that is inside of it, thus, great for defence, and well, trinity <3, she is perfect, a godlike frame that can provide the team with energy and heal them in a long endurance mission is always welcomed, but what happens when the broken enemy scalling that warframe has kicks in? I'll tell ya, mesa, trini, frost, the snowglobe, the cryopod, your specters, your sentinels,your kubrow, everything gets 1 shotted, saying a great team comp isn't allowing you to loose only means you are retreating early from the fight.

 

Edit: completely forgot about how not only damage enemy scaling is broken, enemy armor is aswell, if you decide not to run with 4 CP proyections, even if you run with 3, It gets to a point where you need to unload a full clip of your 4 forma soma prime to take out a heavy gunner with only 10% of his armor (3 corrosive proyections = 90% armor)

I've played enough dungeon defenders to understand what you're saying just fine.  But that's not the broken part of the game.  How many 40+ minute games have you been in that don't have a frost present.  I'll take my leave in telling you that, I'm fully aware that if any, not many.  I'm all for 40+ minute games, working as a team to complete the objective.  Synergies, I'm familiar with them.  If that's what we're intending, then tell me why he's the only answer.

[Husla]

Mesa has been around for so long. She hasn't be changed at all. Why is she toxic all of sudden? Because she was the next big thing behind Excalibro pre-EB/pre-RJ nerf.

 

Who will be the next meta? any frame can be with the right combination/sync, it may be even worse{or better}

[Dom1nati0n]

You do know that this is a co-op game, and you are comparing this game to PvP games (MOBAs like DotA 2 and LoL, chess).

 

Frames are built for specific purposes. Some excel at none (TBH ember), some excel at some (frost = defense, nekros = survival), and some excel at everything (loki, mesa).

 

Now I agree with mesa, she needs a rework on her 4, badly.

 

Frost is another thing. He is actually in a good spot IMO. As mucha s you see his snowglobe as a camper's wet dream, it's supposed to be like that. He excels in defense-esque missions (MobiDef, Def, Excavation, interception to some extent). Removing his snow globe means removing utility in his kit, making him less useful.

 

Instead of focusing on frames being OP but are balanced (frost), why not focus on the useless/broken frames atm (mesa).

If frost was balanced there would be more than one answer to a defense 40+ minutes in.  I'm not just smashing on frost, I'm more concerned with gameplay that is accessible to Frost, but hardly without him.  It's nonsense.  At the very least, create a Frost alternative.   

 

*edit*  Also to address the whole moba thing.  I'm not directly comparing any aspect of them.  Only using my experience to relate the use of phrases and balancing issues from my point of view.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Dom1nati0n

[Dom1nati0n]

Mesa has been around for so long. She hasn't be changed at all. Why is she toxic all of sudden? Because she was the next big thing behind Excalibro pre-EB/pre-RJ nerf.

 

Who will be the next meta? any frame can be with the right combination/sync, it may be even worse{or better}

 

How is protecting your pods that have no means of offense a deny of Objective? 

 

Mapwide buzz kill? Expect tatical nukes when you have an objective to fullfill. If you want kicks and giggles go solo.

It's your enemies objective.  -_-  That's how.

[RazrOutlaw]

I've played enough dungeon defenders to understand what you're saying just fine.  But that's not the broken part of the game.  How many 40+ minute games have you been in that don't have a frost present.  I'll take my leave in telling you that, I'm fully aware that if any, not many.  I'm all for 40+ minute games, working as a team to complete the objective.  Synergies, I'm familiar with them.  If that's what we're intending, then tell me why he's the only answer.

40+ minute games that didn't have a frost in it? almost every single game mode I played in warframe, except for defense missions, which is kinda obvious, frost shines there, aswell as mesa's ult does, what should scare you it's that if you change the mod setup for mesa and if you have somewhat of skill you can pretty much solo every mission in the game (except endeless, because of scalling or defense), I'll just leave this link here: 

and I'll point out that equinox IS able to receive energy from trini's ev, while mesa isn't, so why is mesa better? she isn't, people got used to her, and that's the only reason she is still the DPS frame in the defense meta, also frost isn't the only answer in defense, here's your alternative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwy92pX_VAc 

Team synergy has always been a thing in Co-op games.

Edited September 6, 2015 by RazrOutlaw

[Dom1nati0n]

40+ minute games that didn't have a frost in it? almost every single game mode I played in warframe, except for defense missions, which is kinda obvious, frost shines there, aswell as mesa's ult does, what should scare you it's that if you change the mod setup for mesa and if you have somewhat of skill you can pretty much solo every mission in the game (except endeless, because of scalling or defense), I'll just leave this link here: 

and I'll point out that equinox IS able to receive energy from trini's ev, while mesa isn't, so why is mesa better? she isn't, people got used to her, and that's the only reason she is still the DPS frame in the defense meta, also frost isn't the only answer in defense, here's your alternative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwy92pX_VAc

Team synergy has always been a thing in Co-op games.

That's a wonderful alternative, but let me point out, that only one of those setups didn't utilize frost to ensure their survival.  He's an almost mandatory part of the Warframe experience.  He's the go to guy, one frame to rule them all.  Now I appreciate what you've shown me, I really truly do, and I watched and enjoyed both of those videos (I'm watching the second still).  But this is exactly what I'm talking about.  These players have 100% maxed frames, forma'd weapons, the ability to choose from what they will.  And they still utilize frost.  Because it's crazy not to.  Because you have to literally exploit mechanics to fill the gap that is left in your team when he's not there.  

 

And that puts a sour twist on things for me personally.  I'm not saying it's not possible to utilize a banshee/nova/ember/trin build.  I'm sure there are ways to pull that kind of thing off.  But there's a difference between shining, and being uncontested. And I would just like to say, for the most part, and it's evident in the community attitude about the requirement of frost for any defensive style mission, That Frost is the uncontestablr (maybe not a word) defense champion.  No one can step up to him.

 

 I understand there are other fully potent frames.  That's awesome.  I love seeing that, But I don't.  I don't see it.  That guy playing Limbo said that he loves the amount of choice available in Warframe.  So do I.  But I still stand by what I see everyday.  The community is toxic.  And adjustments could be made to break the meta.  I think highly appropriate and calculated adjustments, that may even make frost more fun to play, or provide us with frames that can or will match his defensive strength.  So that everyone can develop huge raging hard-on's for...not frost. 

[RazrOutlaw]

That's a wonderful alternative, but let me point out, that only one of those setups didn't utilize frost to ensure their survival.  He's an almost mandatory part of the Warframe experience.  He's the go to guy, one frame to rule them all.  Now I appreciate what you've shown me, I really truly do, and I watched and enjoyed both of those videos (I'm watching the second still).  But this is exactly what I'm talking about.  These players have 100% maxed frames, forma'd weapons, the ability to choose from what they will.  And they still utilize frost.  Because it's crazy not to.  Because you have to literally exploit mechanics to fill the gap that is left in your team when he's not there.  

 

And that puts a sour twist on things for me personally.  I'm not saying it's not possible to utilize a banshee/nova/ember/trin build.  I'm sure there are ways to pull that kind of thing off.  But there's a difference between shining, and being uncontested. And I would just like to say, for the most part, and it's evident in the community attitude about the requirement of frost for any defensive style mission, That Frost is the uncontestablr (maybe not a word) defense champion.  No one can step up to him.

 

 I understand there are other fully potent frames.  That's awesome.  I love seeing that, But I don't.  I don't see it.  That guy playing Limbo said that he loves the amount of choice available in Warframe.  So do I.  But I still stand by what I see everyday.  The community is toxic.  And adjustments could be made to break the meta.  I think highly appropriate and calculated adjustments, that may even make frost more fun to play, or provide us with frames that can or will match his defensive strength.  So that everyone can develop huge raging hard-on's for...not frost. 

Actually, only one of those is to show an alternative to frost, that's why you'll see him at the first video, the first one was to show an alternative to mesa as the damage dealer frame, another alternative can be ash or saryn, but saryn's damage falls short & ash clear isn't as nearly as good as mesa or equinox's. Hopefully in a near future we can have more "defensive" style of frames diversity, I agree with you on that, It's always good to have more options where to choose from, but since we are still in beta, we only have to wait, I'm sure more frames as frost or limbo will pop up eventually.

[(XBOX)AyersyBears]

1. Mesa's ultimate, whilst cool looking, is bad. You hold down one button, and complete the objective. This needs tweaking, so that at the very least, you have to aim and shoot for yourself.

 

2. Frost's ability Snow Globe is a very bad thing. God forbid, a Warframe with an ability that helps prevent you from losing an objective, when that gamemode revolves around protecting that objective. (That was sarcasm, for anyone about to jump down my throat). In any gamemode, in any game ever, most people are going to want abilities, that help complete whatever objective they have. Snow Globe is a defensive ability. Differing from Mesa, in the fact you can't press one button and win. You still need to play, shoot/stab/blow up the enemies like everyone else, in order to win. Very good for a defense mission. Pretty crap for a Spy mission, wouldn't you say? Vice versa, Loki's invisibility is great for Spy, pretty rubbish for Defense. So what if Warframes play differently from each other? It's called variety. It would be pretty boring to play this game, if all the frames did the same thing. Likewise, it will be near impossible to make every frame, equally good at every gamemode. You'd have to remove Frost's snow globe, Limbo's rift walk/ cataclysm/ banish, Ash/ Loki's invisibilty, Mag's polarise/ crush (so she isn't just good against corpus) etc etc. 

 

3. Camping and sniping are bad? Great, someone else with a negative attitude towards a playstyle. In most shooting games, I play the Sniper. I have a role to play. Just like a Healer/ Tank whatever else in a game. I take out high priority targets first, so my team can deal with other enemies easier. Camping is also a playstyle, and/or a tactic. In a defense mission, where the objective doesn't move, camping is a good tactic. Pretty rubbish tactic for Spy/ Sabotage/ Exterminate etc. Don't like camping/ sniping? Don't do it. Don't like others doing it? Don't play PuGs, or specify that when forming a group.

 

4. In my opinion, whilst not every frame is not equally good at every game mode, some shine in some game modes, others shine in other game modes, you can still use every frame in every game mode, with success. Frost being 'overused' or 'necessary' for defense is just down to the fact that he has an ability that is good for defense. He is not needed, at low level content or high, if your team know what they are doing. Granted, this does not mean that all frames do not require some tweaking, as they do. Snow Globe to me, seems like a good ability, for a certain objective gamemode. It is not the be all, end all of everything though.

[Ezariel]

@ Dom1nati0n

 

It's all about playstyle.

 

You can cavil Excalibur in the same why, like Frost. But what for? Frost is ultimate defender and it's normal you match frame for you playstyle, and next match playstyle for frame abilities.

Frost have def abilities, so thats the point, use them well. Excal have dmg potential, so you must run, slash use 4 and blind enemies. 

 

Mesa or Ash are another story for me. I don't like this frames, want rework for it from egoist reasons.

[EchoesOfRain]

while not really related to mesa/frost/whatever, this is related to camping. I once went into a T3 survival with some randoms, and at some point a couple of them were trying to get all of us into a dead-end corridor to funnel enemies into us. Of course, I refused and enjoyed running, dodging, and killing enemies at my own pleasure. They continued to try to get me into that camping zone with them throughout the game, and I continued to refuse. Ended up with like, 50% overall damage dealt for our team. It's sad that other players are trying to suck out the fun in this game so much

[-dicht.Amducias-]

It's been my experience in competitive gaming, Dota 2, League of Legends, Heroes of the Storm, that there is a phrase people use for fundamental gameplay aspects that are easily abused, overly abused (despite ease), or generally unfavorable to some or all of the people playing the game at the time.

I realize Warframe is not a competitive game in the same sense as a MOBA, and is not immediately comparable to a MOBA. However they do share some similarities. They're both seeking a balance. They're both so chock full of stats/characters/mechanics, that not everything works out optimally for everyone all of the time.

More often than not, players are referred to as being Toxic, when their behavior is immature, irresponsible to their teams, or generally unpleasant for a number of potential reasons. The less used but more important thing here, is that Champions, Heroes, And in this case, Warframes, can be Toxic for the same reasons. You might have guessed at least one of the frames I'm interested in addressing by this point. But here goes nothing.

Mesa.

Is the most Toxic frame of them all. Most of you know why, but I'll be fair and brief. She is the seed of evil that plants negative emotions in video games. She is the Riven, She is the Sniper. Everyone wants to be her, and those that don't, want to ride her coat tails until work the next day, where they imagine being allowed to lick Mesa's face bandages while she spams 4 until the end of the universe. Here's why.

1. Her Number four

2. The gameplay that ensues.

It's that simple. I've never seen anything so Toxic since wallhacks, aimbots, and World of Warcraft was invented. This should have been addressed by now, and I feel like marching outside of the DE offices with banners of "Repent The End Is Nigh" and "I can't believe it's not MESA" (Brownie points go to the best gif of this). It's gross. Just that simple. No excuses, Unless we're going to add behind cover shooting as a proper mechanic. Which is also gross, but then at least we're on the same page, and I know to just put the lipstick on and embrace the fact that I'm probably not top tonight.

Frost.

This might surprise some people. Why, you say? But I luuvvv me some frost, Doesn't everyone? It's simple really.

1.Snowglobe

2.The gameplay that ensues.

The frost community is probably frothing at the mouth by now imagining how if they only knew where I lived how they're going to ^#$^ing burn down my house. But I'm not going to break down frost, and why he's ridiculous. He's not, It's a core gameplay issue that lay behind our frosty friend. There are too many abilities in the game that say "Camping is cool", "Let's pitch a tent, together, guys.." And so on. It's the fourteen year old gamer dream. "If only, I could play my video game, until it plays itself, then I might actually have time to go out into the world and hopefully touch a boob."

I'm gonna break this down in a way that someone may be able to understand.

I play MOBA's. There are Characters, Mechanics, Rules to be bent and sometimes broken, And glorious, oh glorious balancing issues up the wazoo. Here's the thing. No matter what anyone says to me, I understand the fundamental process of winning a game, because it's like a board game. You take objectives, you gain power, you win the game. This is a process that is for me personally most relative to board games such as chess, so I'll reference that as well for you non-MOBA fish of the sea.

MOBA PLAYERS READ HERE - Despite all balancing issues, I have never played a game that had a champion that literally, stopped you from being able to lose. Ever. It's not a thing. No champion ever said hey guys I have this really cool move where I you know, Stop objectives from being taken. Because that would be @#%$ing silly. Wouldn't it.

CHESS PLAYERS READ HERE - Imagine you're playing against Frost. He is down to his knight, his bishop, his queen and his king. You are dominating this game. He then proceeds to Snowglobe his king. See what I'm saying? Are you ever gonna %#^!ing checkmate him. Or is the whole point of the #^!$ing game now mute because this #$&(% just pressed one button.

NON CHESS/MOBA PLAYERS READ HERE - Enjoy your girlfriend, This isn't muggle business.

Now I understand, there are counter-arguments to both of these lines of reasoning (LOL) No. There's not.

Frost impinges on core aspects of certain game modes making them heavily reliant (solely?) on frost based teams, and "I can't believe it's not MESA" destroys effort, and the model of "Work hard and you can in fact achieve your goals" that this game carries as a core value up and only up until you reach a certain point in the star chart we all love/hate.

I want people to enjoy this wonderful game. And with 24 frames to choose from, some are going to shine, and some are designed to shine. Establishing a balance that allows players to freely choose how they play the game, and making the game a fun experience for all involved, really is the hard part. But I have faith that DE sees this Meta-game as the Toxic environment is has become, and will choose to resolve this issue. Because I only need two frames, And a AAA with an EV build to satisfy the current Meta.

And before anyone decides to go ham all over the huge point I missed, Yes. You can decide not to play into the current Meta, but ask yourselves if the overall community doesn't suffer due to Tenno who believe in abusing the current flaws with two of our fellow frames.

1. I think it is kinda funny how everyone cries about Mesa, i have no problem with nerfing her because i know several other tactics, some of them even better in killing than mesa but you wont get them anyway so go ahead, you wont solve anything

2. Frost is making the game unloseable? then you clearly didnt play long enough

[-dicht.Amducias-]

while not really related to mesa/frost/whatever, this is related to camping. I once went into a T3 survival with some randoms, and at some point a couple of them were trying to get all of us into a dead-end corridor to funnel enemies into us. Of course, I refused and enjoyed running, dodging, and killing enemies at my own pleasure. They continued to try to get me into that camping zone with them throughout the game, and I continued to refuse. Ended up with like, 50% overall damage dealt for our team. It's sad that other players are trying to suck out the fun in this game so much

Nice so you were really proud of having 50% of the dmg? You doesnt seem to get the spawning mechanics

[Ronyn]

.....

You are greatly oversimplifying things. There are plenty of counters to frost and mesa that AI and players can do.

This becomes particularly evident in higher level missions (enemies above 50 or 60) and in PVP modes.

Just as there are plenty of counters to Castling in chess or Braum in LOL. Different games, different things to compare, all that matters is that counterplay exists. And it does. So please....come back at your concerns with a different approach and we can discuss them without the oversimplifications.

 

Don't compare LoL to Warframe. One is a PvP and one is a PvE game.

 

You have to put this through your head: Warframe is a PvE game. PvE game. PvE game. PvE Game. PvE GAMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Warframe is not a moba. That said, the line between things is not entirely so clear as you say.

Warframe has both pve and pvp modes so you can't just say "warframe is a pve game". That's false.

Moreover-

Ever play warframes old dark sector PVP modes? It was literally a moba style mode.

Ever play LOL against BOT's to practice? That is technically a PVE mode.

Many powers in LOL act differently to Ai then to players because Riot understands the different needs of AI and player interaction.

 

Realistically it is best for developers to learn from all applicable sources. I don't agree with the OP's specific argument (I think he is pretty far off) but we can't discount them simply on the principal that Warframe and LOL are very different games. 

[-dicht.Amducias-]

You are greatly oversimplifying things. There are plenty of counters to frost and mesa that AI and players can do.

This becomes particularly evident in higher level missions (enemies above 50 or 60) and in PVP modes.

Just as there are plenty of counters to Castling in chess or Braum in LOL. Different games, different things to compare, all that matters is that counterplay exists. And it does. So please....come back at your concerns with a different approach and we can discuss them without the oversimplifications.

Warframe is not a moba. That said, the line between things is not entirely so clear as you say.

Warframe has both pve and pvp modes so you can't just say "warframe is a pve game". That's false.

Moreover-

Ever play warframes old dark sector PVP modes? It was literally a moba style mode.

Ever play LOL against BOT's to practice? That is technically a PVE mode.

Many powers in LOL act differently to Ai then to players because Riot understands the different needs of AI and player interaction.

Realistically it is best for developers to learn from all applicable sources. I don't agree with the OP's specific argument (I think he is pretty far off) but we can't discount them simply on the principal that Warframe and LOL are very different games.

Warframe IS a PvE game, they only implemented PvP cuz of the ppl that were asking for it all the time so they maybe stop asking for it

[Ronyn]

Warframe IS a PvE game, they only implemented PvP cuz of the ppl that were asking for it all the time so they maybe stop asking for it

Warframe is both because it has both. Period. Warframe started as a PVE game, but it is no longer only that. 

WHY it has both does not change that it does, in fact, have both. That is the game now. It's not a matter of opinion it is fact.

As for the why itself....DE sometimes listens to players, sometimes don't, sometimes have their own debate internally.

Exactly what motivated DE to make the choice to put more energy into PVP is not entirely known to us. Pretending otherwise is false.

 

 

Look there are aspects of the game I personally wish DE didn't put time into myself but I am not going to cherry pick which parts are relevant and which parts aren't based on what I personally care about.

[RazrOutlaw]

I like how everyone just jump into conclusions and say mesa is too op, she prevents you from losing, you only press one button and complete the objective??, this one was the most ridiculous comment I've ever heard about peacemaker.

With frost you still have to play the game, mesa doesn't cover the cryopod like frost does, so, she can't help it getting blown up by 1 single rocket in late game, hence, you don't complete the objective of defending the pod, you only help killing the mobs, her damage ain't even that great, you can burst enemies faster with a nova and a tonkor, nullfiers destroy all that peacemaker implies, and if the problem isn't the damage, it's just how the ability works, all dps abilities in this game are brainded, they are just the press of 1 button, mesa is the same, why would you expect any difference?.

So, stop complaining about her guys, at least she is relatively new, frames like ash and saryn deserve this reworks a lot more than mesa does, since they are as brainded as her, but have been here forever.

 

Also, I almost forgot the fact that peacemaker locks you in place, and you can't replenish your energy with trini's EV, brutally downgrading the time you can "afk" & "complete the objective", since killing mobs seems to be the only objective in the game, or I'm probably missing out on what peacemaker does.

Edited September 7, 2015 by RazrOutlaw