Mesa+Frost (Toxicity And My Gaming Experience So Far)

[Ryjeon]

I actually think Peacemaker should be a short range domination ability emulating the gun-kata of films like Equilibrium. It should likewise have a bit of mobility and feel more action-packed than just being a stationary sniper turret simulator. Peacemaker just doesn't satisfy her theme. I'd prefer it if was 25 meters and adjustable by range mods. Then people can mod for extra range to get current Peacemaker like just about every other area domination frame has to. Until she sees changes Mesa seems to me like a training wheels frame that basically plays itself and doesn't live up to its gun-kata theme. Her other abilities have a lot of promise but she suffers from Saryn syndrome to where its too easy to just hunker down and let one simple ability do all the work.

 

As for Frost, I think he's a bit problematic. But enemy types make him a necessity. Lategame void defenses you have to cheese so that bombards don't one-shot the defense object. I think the defense object should be resistant to getting one-shot. It should go down due to overwhelming enemy pressure not to stray splash damage. Currently in later defenses we're stuck playing freeze tag with the enemies just in case they breath on the cryopod and it breaks and we lose an hour of work. I don't think Snow Globe is the problem here.

 

Before bombards and nullifiers a mix of various crowd control and teamwork was sufficient to keep the defense object safe. I do think these additions are good challenging anti-warframe units, but those units in particular should have their damage focused on the players and enable other units to damage the pods. Making the crypod resistant to bombard and nullifier damage would alleviate and balance out the pressure.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Ryjeon

[TheGundamFrog]

This is a PvE game. Frost and Mesa are here to help you. Enbrace them, become them, absorb them. I don't understand why you dislike Frost and Mesa. There abilities are useful and really help the team.

[CombatPastor]

Ok. So I was reading through this thread and thought it would be an interesting exercise to think of 1 or 2 frame combinations that are just as effective as Frost and/or Mesa. Should be fun:

 

Limbo Cataclysm + Excal Exalted Blade

Zephyr Turbulence & Tornado? Maybe toss in something for damage (Saryn?)

We've seen how absurd Limbo Cataclysm + Volt Shield can be.

Mirage's Prism (Blind spam) + Trinity Energy Vampire

Loki Irradiated Disarm (or just Disarm) + Nova Molecular Prime

 

...anyone else got some?

 

edit - Toss Tonkor on Zephyr for absurdity. Loki's Irradiated Disarm is probably OP all on it's own...poor Nyx. Maybe get som Oberon SlamSpam or Mag's Crush or Banshee's Soundquake going for constant stationary CC?

 

tl;dr - this game is about team mechanics. Some things do require rebalance, but I doubt Frost is one of them. Mesa? ...maybe.

Edited September 9, 2015 by CombatPastor

[--Q--uaint]

i was running an ods today, and around the 45 min mark i was getting one shotted. I was a valkyr with 1140 armor and a max str war cry build that gives me a supposed 142% armor boost. ( not sure how the armor boost is applied but it should be a lot of damage reduction..... ) frost's snow globe acts like a team iron skin so I'm applying to what you said about mesa to frost. Eventually even a strong snow globe gets shredded by high level enemies.

Frost's Snow Globe also has 4 seconds of invulnerability that increase its health by whatever damage it takes during that time. (Personally tested and verified)

Sufficient Efficiency/Energy income will allow you constant invulnerability.

 

Yeah, I know about how to confront the void, but I was making an example with the frames OP named, mesa & frost, and for some reason my specters seem to be bugged, as they adquire enemy level when I release them, but don't scale at all (if I throw an specter when the enemies are lvl 24, it stays 24 the rest of the game, well, unless it gets killed).

Nullifiers ain't a thing anymore, with a powerthrow glaive or a synoid simulor you can destroy him instantly.

I believe them not scaling with the enemy is intended; you get the benefit sooner, but less benefit overall. TBH, you can just redeploy if they survive for too long....

Torid, Ogris, Opticor, Kulstar... the list of weapons that oneshot Nullifiers from outside the bubble is fairly long, actually. It doesn't change the fact that they oneshot people randomly and disrupt CC.

Edited September 10, 2015 by ChronoEclipse

[vaugahn]

Nerf Mesa range ult by 75% and all probleme solved....

 

That wouldn't really solve the problem. It would still be a boring cutscene pretending to be an ability, it would just be more frustrating to use.

[RazrOutlaw]

Ok. So I was reading through this thread and thought it would be an interesting exercise to think of 1 or 2 frame combinations that are just as effective as Frost and/or Mesa. Should be fun:

 

Limbo Cataclysm + Excal Exalted Blade

Zephyr Turbulence & Tornado? Maybe toss in something for damage (Saryn?)

We've seen how absurd Limbo Cataclysm + Volt Shield can be.

Mirage's Prism (Blind spam) + Trinity Energy Vampire

Loki Irradiated Disarm (or just Disarm) + Nova Molecular Prime

 

...anyone else got some?

 

edit - Toss Tonkor on Zephyr for absurdity. Loki's Irradiated Disarm is probably OP all on it's own...poor Nyx. Maybe get som Oberon SlamSpam or Mag's Crush or Banshee's Soundquake going for constant stationary CC?

 

tl;dr - this game is about team mechanics. Some things do require rebalance, but I doubt Frost is one of them. Mesa? ...maybe.

Get 4 CP a banshee, maim equinox full range, full strenght & efficiency + ev trinity, instakill everything.

[shoopypit]

frost is fine, and great for defense, considering even his stats. high in armor,health, shields, low in energy and sprint speed. his one and 2 are cheap, deal decent damage, and have good utility, what with the whole slowing the enemy. globe is great for reviving, setting up offensive stations in choke points, or even an "oh S#&$" button for when multiple enemies are up your butt. his 4th deals great damage while also freezing enemies in place for x amount of seconds. you dont like using him for defense? then you can use vauban. or loki (for non infested defense missions). or use hydroid. (though he is unpopular, he is perfectly capable for defense) or you can Limbo it up. (he is also hated, but he works just fine if you know how to use him). or you can use nyx. or banshee, ULT all day. seriously, there are so many frames that perform just fine in defense. but frost is the best for the mission type. it's like saying Volt is broked because he is the best for rushing cap missions.

 

mesa. i dont use her. dont have her. she looks cool. but, i dont like being recruited in recruiting channel for draco, because it is goddam boring. i'd rather carry a bunch of randoms than do that S#&$. but if people want to abuse it, fine. shows they suck at the game, and would rather do that than get better. again, ill just play with some lower MR noobs and play with them.

[Guardian_Legion]

I've played enough dungeon defenders to understand what you're saying just fine.  But that's not the broken part of the game.  How many 40+ minute games have you been in that don't have a frost present.  I'll take my leave in telling you that, I'm fully aware that if any, not many.  I'm all for 40+ minute games, working as a team to complete the objective.  Synergies, I'm familiar with them.  If that's what we're intending, then tell me why he's the only answer.

But frost isnt the only answer. Both limbo and zephyr allow for protection of vulnerable objectives. Limbo has his aoe rift ability, while zephyr has turbulence. I would ask that before people make overarching statements like this they learn the ins and outs of the topic they are discussing. If only so they dont sound like an uneducated douchebag trying to sound smart.

[Serialkillerwhale]

MOBA PLAYERS READ HERE - Despite all balancing issues, I have never played a game that had a champion that literally, stopped you from being able to lose.  Ever.  It's not a thing.  No champion ever said hey guys I have this really cool move where I you know, Stop objectives from being taken.  Because that would be silly.  Wouldn't it.

[HAYABU5A]

oh look another one of these threads

 

welcome to like 2013

[xLordKogax]

It's been my experience in competitive gaming, Dota 2, League of Legends, Heroes of the Storm, that there is a phrase people use for fundamental gameplay aspects that are easily abused, overly abused (despite ease), or generally unfavorable to some or all of the people playing the game at the time.

 

I realize Warframe is not a competitive game in the same sense as a MOBA, and is not immediately comparable to a MOBA.  However they do share some similarities.  They're both seeking a balance.  They're both so chock full of stats/characters/mechanics, that not everything works out optimally for everyone all of the time.

 

More often than not, players are referred to as being Toxic, when their behavior is immature, irresponsible to their teams, or generally unpleasant for a number of potential reasons.  The less used but more important thing here, is that Champions, Heroes, And in this case, Warframes, can be Toxic for the same reasons.  You might have guessed at least one of the frames I'm interested in addressing by this point.  But here goes nothing.

 

 

Mesa.  

 

Is the most Toxic frame of them all.  Most of you know why, but I'll be fair and brief.  She is the seed of evil that plants negative emotions in video games.  She is the Riven, She is the Sniper.  Here's why.

 

1. Her Number four

2. The gameplay that ensues. 

 

It's that simple.  I've never seen anything so Toxic since wallhacks, aimbots, and World of Warcraft was invented.  This should have been addressed by now, It's gross.  Just that simple.  No excuses, Unless we're going to add behind cover shooting as a proper mechanic.  Which is also gross, but then at least we're on the same page, and I know to just put the lipstick on and embrace the fact that I'm probably not top tonight.

 

 

Frost.

 

This might surprise some people.  Why, you say?  But I luuvvv me some frost, Doesn't everyone?  It's simple really.

 

1.Snowglobe

2.The gameplay that ensues.

 

The frost community is probably frothing at the mouth by now imagining how if they only knew where I lived how they're going to ^#$^ing burn down my house.  But I'm not going to break down frost, and why he's ridiculous.  He's not, It's a core gameplay issue that lay behind our frosty friend.  There are too many abilities in the game that say "Camping is cool".

 

 

I'm gonna break this down:

 

 

I play MOBA's.  There are Characters, Mechanics, Rules to be bent and sometimes broken, And glorious, oh glorious balancing issues up the wazoo.  Here's the thing.  No matter what anyone says to me, I understand the fundamental process of winning a game, because it's like a board game.  You take objectives, you gain power, you win the game.  This is a process that is for me personally most relative to board games such as chess, so I'll reference that as well for you non-MOBA fish of the sea.

 

MOBA PLAYERS READ HERE - Despite all balancing issues, I have never played a game that had a champion that literally, stopped you from being able to lose.  Ever.  It's not a thing.  No champion ever said hey guys I have this really cool move where I you know, Stop objectives from being taken.  Because that would be silly.  Wouldn't it.

 

 

 

CHESS PLAYERS READ HERE - Imagine you're playing against Frost.  He is down to his knight, his bishop, his queen and his king.  You are dominating this game.  He then proceeds to Snowglobe his king.  See what I'm saying?  Are you ever gonna %#^!ing checkmate him.  Or is the whole point of the game now mute because this just pressed one button.

 

 

 

NON CHESS/MOBA PLAYERS READ HERE - Enjoy your girlfriend, This isn't muggle business.  

 

 

 

 

Now I understand, there are counter-arguments to both of these lines of reasoning (LOL) No.  There's not.  

 

Frost impinges on core aspects of certain game modes making them heavily reliant (solely?) on frost based teams, and "I can't believe it's not MESA" destroys effort, and the model of "Work hard and you can in fact achieve your goals" that this game carries as a core value up and only up until you reach a certain point in the star chart we all love/hate.  

 

I want people to enjoy this wonderful game.  And with 24 frames to choose from, some are going to shine, and some are designed to shine.  Establishing a balance that allows players to freely choose how they play the game, and making the game a fun experience for all involved, really is the hard part.  But I have faith that DE sees this Meta-game as the Toxic environment is has become, and will choose to resolve this issue.  Because I only need two frames, And a AAA with an EV build to satisfy the current Meta.

 

And before anyone decides to go ham all over the huge point I missed, Yes.  You can decide not to play into the current Meta, but ask yourselves if the overall community doesn't suffer due to Tenno who believe in abusing the current flaws with two of our fellow frames.

 

Yeah i play League abit.

 

Ill tell You another Hated frame that brings Toxic behaviour in the Community and I compare him to his Counterpart in League of legends

 

Ready?

 

ASH!

 

His League Counter part..... ZED tho zeds more refined and not buggy as Ash or trolled on by fellow teammates aslong as You play Zed right noone will trip.

You soo much as bring Ash in a squad of Toxic players and you get trolled, called a Fan boy, Ash is Trash, and the common Edge Lord puns arise.

 

Mesa isnt the only one getting Hate Ash has been around longer and been getting hate before Mesas release

[Dom1nati0n]

MOBA PLAYERS READ HERE - Despite all balancing issues, I have never played a game that had a champion that literally, stopped you from being able to lose.  Ever.  It's not a thing.  No champion ever said hey guys I have this really cool move where I you know, Stop objectives from being taken.  Because that would be silly.  Wouldn't it.

Lol. I have a 53% win rate with techies. But playing him as a wall is only effective against hmm...less skillful opponents. And still suffers the same fate as frost. Standing around, forced into a build, only to lose at a later point in time. Now if we had the ability to scale into the late game as a response, perhaps he would be as useful as a techies defense.

[Serialkillerwhale]

he still drags games on for up to 40 minutes longer than they should be

 

And of coures, the enemy support has to buy millions of sentries.

[Verdha603]

Just my two cents, simply because I will proudly admit I am a Frost user 99% of the time on Warframe; he's good, but he's not OP.

 

His Snow Globe is GREAT for holding an objective, and for defensive gameplay, but thats it. Bombards can still wreck me in the globe, other enemies can get inside and even slowed down and force me to react rather than sit there and let the team kill them.

 

And maybe its just me, but Frost is still not what I consider fast or a fully offensive frame. I can't keep up with the likes of Loki and the people who can parkour all over the place, and I certainly can't kill enemies anywhere near as fast as Mesa, Saryn, Nova, etc. 

 

He's balanced, and he fills the niche of a defensive tank very well, but throw him outside of that and it takes a bit of work to have him keep up.

 

Now I will admit Mesa is OP when it comes to her ult, but honestly that can be fixed fairly easily; make it cost more energy over time.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

-doublepost

Edited September 17, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Just my two cents, simply because I will proudly admit I am a Frost user 99% of the time on Warframe; he's good, but he's not OP.

His Snow Globe is GREAT for holding an objective, and for defensive gameplay, but thats it. Bombards can still wreck me in the globe, other enemies can get inside and even slowed down and force me to react rather than sit there and let the team kill them.

And maybe its just me, but Frost is still not what I consider fast or a fully offensive frame. I can't keep up with the likes of Loki and the people who can parkour all over the place, and I certainly can't kill enemies anywhere near as fast as Mesa, Saryn, Nova, etc.

He's balanced, and he fills the niche of a defensive tank very well, but throw him outside of that and it takes a bit of work to have him keep up.

Now I will admit Mesa is OP when it comes to her ult, but honestly that can be fixed fairly easily; make it cost more energy over time.

A piece of advice: go for max range. The bombards can't pierce the globe so you just gotta cover the ex range. For mesa, she allready has a insane drain. Wanna change her? Take care of the root of the problem. The missing interaction and effectivity. Change it to another EB, more damage, less drain, less range and auto-aim in a cone so you can't just sit there and do nothing.

That aside, you know my standpoint for frost. You wouln't blame a tank in other mmo's would you?

Edited September 17, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[--Q--uaint]

The missing interaction and effectivity. Change it to another EB, more damage, less drain, less range and auto-aim in a cone so you can't just sit there and do nothing.

 

Thought: Add the auto-aim in a cone, allow moving, increase the drain and the damage, but only drain while firing. Now it becomes a choice instead of a dull necessity to hold down LMB.

[YasaiTsume]

TLDR: Whaaaaaaattttt?

[Unholyrequiem]

Try an excavation mission without frost and see how long you can keep the excavators alive especially on high level planets. Then try an argue about how he isn't a necessity.[ Limbo can probably do it but he is slower and suffers from issues that snow globe doesn't have]

 

I've thought Frost was a problem for a while now. A single stretch is more than enough for a globe that also slows enemies and freezes them. Frost is overall pretty strong especially damage wise with his abilities.

 

Personally, I play frost often. Interception, defense, survival, and excavation are missions where he becomes vital to the team.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Unholyrequiem

[--Q--uaint]

Try an excavation mission without frost and see how long you can keep the excavators alive especially on high level planets.

 

Limbo/Mag/Trin/probably another nuker

 

Protects you from AoE, kills the Corpus, gives you energy, and a nuker to finish off the Corpus that survive the Polarize.

 

Bonus points for using a Banished Mirage to kill nullifiers (Yes, it works. Tested personally.)

[Unholyrequiem]

Limbo/Mag/Trin/probably another nuker

 

Protects you from AoE, kills the Corpus, gives you energy, and a nuker to finish off the Corpus that survive the Polarize.

 

Bonus points for using a Banished Mirage to kill nullifiers (Yes, it works. Tested personally.)

Read my edited post. Further more LImbo is virtually inferior to Frost's snowglobe on the basis that it offers disadvantages to the team like restricting weapons fire, can only use one at a time, stops you from being able to pick up items, etc.

 

The presence of trinity negates the need for Cataclysm to give energy regeneration

 

To further cement my argument very few parties have ever asked for a limbo.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Unholyrequiem

[DiosGX]

CHESS PLAYERS READ HERE - Imagine you're playing against Frost. He is down to his knight, his bishop, his queen and his king. You are dominating this game. He then proceeds to Snowglobe his king. See what I'm saying? Are you ever gonna %#^!ing checkmate him. Or is the whole point of the game now mute because this just pressed one button.

That sounds to me like a game in which one player is clearly a superior tactician and is using it to his advantage over another player. In terms of chess, that's frowned on heavily and people that are serious about the game will look at you with disgust.

 

If you actually got your opponent down to that few pieces and couldn't checkmate them, it means you're a bad chess player and/or don't respect the spirit of the game. There are literally about 40 different instances that cause a game to end in a draw, and only one in which a player can legitimately claim victory. It's not about winning; it's about doing so with chivalry.

 

Sorry but that's just a bad analogy. Had to call you out on it. No hard feelings. ;P

[Gebunator]

Proper usage of Nyx's chaos can bring an unseen shield to excavators too. Sure, it's not a perfect shield since chaos'ed enemies target the closest thing to them and having bunch of high level bombards under chaos near an excavator still means lose of the drill!

ANYWHO

Why's OP calling mah Riven toxic? I thought Teemo was the most toxic one! Something happened to her this year?

And yeah, it seems to be a general consensus around here that Mesa's ulti needs a rework to feel more rewarding than holding down button for sometime untill it becomes downright useless (without banshee), but her other skills are just beautiful to use in all missions too. So, the fourth one is just means to cut down the time!

[--Q--uaint]

Read my edited post. Further more LImbo is virtually inferior to Frost's snowglobe on the basis that it offers disadvantages to the team like restricting weapons fire, can only use one at a time, stops you from being able to pick up items, etc.

 

The presence of trinity negates the need for Cataclysm to give energy regeneration

 

To further cement my argument very few parties have ever asked for a limbo.

 

Cataclysm is superior to Globe in that it's truly invulnerable. Restricting weaponsfire can be mostly fixed with Electric Shield. The enemies should not be inside of Cataclysm anyway, so no drops should be there.

 

Sure, but Trin isn't actually needed.

 

Bah. Limbo requires too much team coordination to be worth it in a PUG unless it's just Mesa/Excal/Banshee using 4

The truth is, Limbo scales better than Frost does. He just has... issues that come along with it that make it less useful.

 

 

Regardless, a Banished Mirage can freely kill anything (Nullifiers included) with HoM.

[Unholyrequiem]

>>Restricting weaponsfire can be mostly fixed with Electric Shield. 

*If I'm not mistaken this is no longer the case and was patched a while ago but if that still is the case and I'm wrong, it is a bit of a specific requirement to have Volt on the team just to make cataclysm more useful.

 

>> The enemies should not be inside of Cataclysm anyway, so no drops should be there.

Whether or not they should be there is irrelevant because it is innevitable that they eventually will be especially in high tier defense missions that enable the enemies to tank anything. Once they are inside you must eliminate them quickly because unlike snow globe there is no secondary line of defense against entry.

 

>>Sure, but Trin isn't actually needed.

*She was never needed. We replace her with pancakes.

 

>>Bah. Limbo requires too much team coordination to be worth it in a PUG unless it's just Mesa/Excal/Banshee using 4

The truth is, Limbo scales better than Frost does. He just has... issues that come along with it that make it less useful.

*Limbo scales better in terms of the damage it can take, but in utility it falls short. Furthermore in theory Frost's snow globe will last a minimum of 8 seconds per cast which isn't expensive to repeatedly replenish. It also knocks enemies out of range, Can be stacked on itself 4 times and freezes/slows enemies inside. Frost also has other useful abilities excellent for both crowd control and damage that are relatively cheap compared to cataclysm. Cataclysm for the most part provides only one true utility and that's it's ability to block fire from the enemy but also blocks fire from it's allows. When cast cataclysm causes some damage and a knockdown while being ultimately more expensive than frost's snow globe.

 

>>Regardless, a Banished Mirage can freely kill anything (Nullifiers included) with HoM.

 

Mirage or any other frame for that matter can take out a nullifier without banish pretty easily. Mirage also in darkness has a good 90%ish damage reduction with power strength mods using eclipse or a huge damage boost in bright light which means it isn't entirely necessary to even banish her to begin with.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Unholyrequiem