Mesa+Frost (Toxicity And My Gaming Experience So Far)

[Ziegrif]

I feel that Frost is needed at least in defense.

For solo guys like me getting to wave 40 in T3-4 requires a Frost (unless you're THAT good). I have to have a way to either kill everything on the map immediately or protect the objective while I divide my attention across the map.

I do understand. No protection on objective = more frantic/ exciting missions. But it also means that people will shift into all out dmg, requiring things to rather die immediately or not move making the video on the first page the next meta or slow Nova the next meta.

Protecting the objective gives people space to breathe and use whatever they want to use. It helps with leveling as you're not forced into Optimus prime loadouts to keep dmg off the pods.

Snowglobe will probably keep getting rebalanced as it started with being Invincible and having duration (which actually put a few frosts to asleep on the wheel) to having health and duration to just having health.

I love the current frost. I hated his 2 previous incarnations. He's way more offense oriented now than ever. Which is silly for a defense frame but... defense is kinda boring as we saw with sleeping/ afk Frosts before the Snowglobe nerfs.

If we remove Snowglobe Frost will just be another DPS/Control frame which is already dominated by many other frames like Nova and Mirage. He'd need considerable buffs to offset the removal of Snowglobe.

The game is also not a MOBA so we can have (and DO have) a more slower meta as MOBAs need a faster meta to keep people who follow esports interested. No one wants to see the same old team when it comes to competitive stuff. Here it's a bit more accepted.

Oh and, Mesa can be nerfed beyond the bloody ground for all I care.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Ziegrif

[Thaumatos]

So mesa and frost actually don't allow you to lose? THEN GG GUYS, excuse me while I delete all my other warframes, playing 'till wave 40 in T1 defense must be quite an enjoyment,  the combo with mesa, frost & trini is great for defense, wanna know why? peacemaker is designed to deal aoe dps, which is great for wave clearings, thus, it's great for defense, frost snowglobe is designed to protect anything that is inside of it, thus, great for defense, and well, trinity <3, she is perfect, a godlike frame that can provide the team with energy and heal them in a long endurance mission is always welcomed, but what happens when the broken enemy scalling that warframe has kicks in? I'll tell ya, mesa, trini, frost, the snowglobe, the cryopod, your specters, your sentinels,your kubrow, everything gets 1 shotted by a bombard's guided missile ogris, saying a great team comp isn't allowing you to loose only means you are retreating early from the fight.

 

Edit: completely forgot about how not only damage enemy scaling is broken, enemy armor is aswell, if you decide not to run with 4 CP, even if you run with 3, It gets to a point where you need to unload a full clip of your 4 forma soma prime to take out a heavy gunner with only 10% of his armor (3 corrosive proyections = 90% armor)

 

I'm sorry but this makes no sense at all.

 

You're saying that DE's enemy scaling is broken at higher levels yet that's what you use to say certain broken frames are actually balanced.  If anything you've just agreed with the OP that, on all balanced content, certain frames will just win without consequence.

 

You might want to re-think your stance on this one...

[Ronyn]

I'm sorry but this makes no sense at all.

 

You're saying that DE's enemy scaling is broken at higher levels yet that's what you use to say certain broken frames are actually balanced.  If anything you've just agreed with the OP that, on all balanced content, certain frames will just win without consequence.

 

You might want to re-think your stance on this one...

Eh...this is kind of a catch 22. Balance, by definition, is about how things stack up in relation to each other.

If the enemy scaling is overpowered then the only way to be balanced against it is to be just as overpowered. And vice versa.

Heck. Even using the word "overpowered" is kind of a misnomer in that context. lol

There isn't really an easy way to discuss "balance" under these circumstances.

 

When one guy says "X frame is too strong for level 40" they are right.

When another guy says "Y frame is too weak for level 80" they are also right.

Right now it seems as though certain frames are balanced for one level and other frames are balanced for another.

The game SHOULD not put us in that kind of posistion....but here we are.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Ronyn

[RazrOutlaw]

I'm sorry but this makes no sense at all.

 

You're saying that DE's enemy scaling is broken at higher levels yet that's what you use to say certain broken frames are actually balanced.  If anything you've just agreed with the OP that, on all balanced content, certain frames will just win without consequence.

 

You might want to re-think your stance on this one...

I think you didn't understand what I said, if enemy scalling is broken, there aren't op frames, if we need these so called "overpowered" frames in order to fight them, they stop being overpowered, they are balanced and the other frames may be underpowered. I haven't agreed with OP in any sense, he said MESA & FROST DON'T ALLOW YOU TO LOSE, saying that makes no sense at all, since enemies scale to the point not even the most suitable frames for X-mission type can handle them (and I'm talking of all frames and all endless missions, not only mesa, frost and defense).

When a so called "tank" can't handle 1 single shot from the enemy without dying, there's when balance starts lacking, when I'm better off using a squishy frame with lots of CC, than a chroma, because both will get 1 shoted anyway, might as well have the crowd control capabilities.

Eh...this is kind of a catch 22. Balance, by definition, is about how things stack up in relation to each other.

If the enemy scaling is overpowered then the only way to be balanced against it is to be just as overpowered. And vice versa.

There isn't really an easy way to discuss "balance" under these circumstances.

This pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Eh...this is kind of a catch 22. Balance, by definition, is about how things stack up in relation to each other.

If the enemy scaling is overpowered then the only way to be balanced against it is to be just as overpowered. And vice versa.

There isn't really an easy way to discuss "balance" under these circumstances.

When one guy says "X frame is too strong for level 40" they are right.

When another guy says "Y frame is too weak for level 80" they are also right.

Right now it seems as though certain frames are balanced for one level and other frames are balanced for another.

The game SHOULD not put us in that kind of posistion....but here we are.

Not even mentioned factors that come with builds. Singletarget damage, tanky builds, support builds. Frames that have potential for several playstyles have to perform vs frames that do excellent against crowds. The game needs a flat on damage executions as well as variety on enemy types to offer true balance.

Setting limits also works great for others games. X heal and tankable damage out + Y health several damage types can perform on.

Edited September 18, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Thumper3]

Step one in a playbook designed to destroy games.

Whining about every little thing that doesn't fit your personal cookie cutter game experience.

Hey, how come there's no whine threads about Loki and Spy missions? If it's boring to play defense with Mesa, why isn't it boring to play Spy with Loki? Loki breaks every Spy mission apart, it's pointless for anyone NOT in a Loki to try anything Spy........same exact situation (except Loki doesn't have the issue Mesa does with damage fall off and scaling).

But no one is filling the forum with nerf Loki threads.

This is a PvE game, if you don't like how Mesa/Frost works......play without them how YOU want to, someone else playing Mesa has no effect on how YOU play the game.

[Gilmaesh]

Hey, how come there's no whine threads about Loki and Spy missions? If it's boring to play defense with Mesa, why isn't it boring to play Spy with Loki? Loki breaks every Spy mission apart, it's pointless for anyone NOT in a Loki to try anything Spy

 

Maybe because most loki do spy solo so it's affecting nobody else gameplay? 

[Thaumatos]

Eh...this is kind of a catch 22. Balance, by definition, is about how things stack up in relation to each other.

If the enemy scaling is overpowered then the only way to be balanced against it is to be just as overpowered. And vice versa.

Heck. Even using the word "overpowered" is kind of a misnomer in that context. lol

There isn't really an easy way to discuss "balance" under these circumstances.

 

When one guy says "X frame is too strong for level 40" they are right.

When another guy says "Y frame is too weak for level 80" they are also right.

Right now it seems as though certain frames are balanced for one level and other frames are balanced for another.

The game SHOULD not put us in that kind of posistion....but here we are.

No you've missed it.

 

He's saying that enemies aren't balanced at all beyond a certain point, and that's what balances the unbalanced frames.

 

It's not a Catch22, it's an illogical assumption.

 

if enemy scalling is broken, there aren't op frames, if we need these so called "overpowered" frames in order to fight them, they stop being overpowered,

 

I didn't misunderstand.  I understood completely.  You have broken logic.  Just because enemy scaling is broken doesn't mean broken frames deserve to exist.

 

Think of it this way.  If, for some odd reason, I get away with murder...does that mean you should as well?  Hell no...  Just because the system of justice fails for one doesn't mean it should fail for all.

[Ronyn]

No you've missed it.

He's saying that enemies aren't balanced at all beyond a certain point, and that's what balances the unbalanced frames.

It's not a Catch22, it's an illogical assumption.

 

I didn't misunderstand.  I understood completely.  You have broken logic.  Just because enemy scaling is broken doesn't mean broken frames deserve to exist.

Think of it this way.  If, for some odd reason, I get away with murder...does that mean you should as well?  Hell no...  Just because the system of justice fails for one doesn't mean it should fail for all.

oooooook. You say I don't understand him, he says I do understand him. Whatever.

 

All I'm trying to say here is that defining "broken" requires some basis of balance to go on.

Where is that line in this current game? 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

No you've missed it.

 

He's saying that enemies aren't balanced at all beyond a certain point, and that's what balances the unbalanced frames.

 

It's not a Catch22, it's an illogical assumption.

 

 

I didn't misunderstand.  I understood completely.  You have broken logic.  Just because enemy scaling is broken doesn't mean broken frames deserve to exist.

 

Think of it this way.  If, for some odd reason, I get away with murder...does that mean you should as well?  Hell no...  Just because the system of justice fails for one doesn't mean it should fail for all.

 

 

Your analogy is bad.

 

In this case an enemy is completely overwhelming. Do you fight fire with fire? or do you try to beat fire with a small tiny hose?

 

This leads to two options.

 

Option #1 Powers do low damage, Low utility and enemies generally have an advantage over players. Game changes name from warframe to weak sauce

 

Option #2 Warframes are as strong as described. swiping aside lower level enemies. Real challenge/fun is when you an unstoppable force meets an immovable object ( valkyr vs juggernaut )

 

Option #2 is preferable as people don't like to shoot at enemies that have the defense tougheness of the juggernaut. If we spend all day killing every enemy over the course of five minutes we'd be playing monster hunter, Not warframe. 

 

You do realize that people build warframes to be exceedingly powerful right? an orokin reactor alone makes any frame powerful and without the urchin reactor frames are more balanced as they are limited to what they can do.

 

So a mesa with an orokin reactor knocks aside enemies. Thats her job, Thats her entire function. getting mad at her is like getting mad that trinity heals teammates or loki goes invisible. 

 

The greatest thing about this game is how warframes can compliment each other.  Banshee and volt make weapon damage insanely high and fun making you go toe-to-toe with level 100+ enemies and it becomes a who can shoot who first ( considering they aim bots they usually win ) But volt shield comes to save the day!

 

Other awesome combos ( Rhino roar + valkyr with eternal war = say hello to my little skana)

nova and banshee ( I heard you like weapon damage and explosions )

Trin and chroma ( surprisingly tanky if built right )

excal + limbo ( long live the KING )

There are a lot of other fun combos and having a team that plays on each others strengths is great

 

( Warcry valkyr and speed volt with 2 jat kittags a mirage with total eclipse and a roar build rhino makes ods so fun )

[Fifield]

I actually think Peacemaker should be a short range domination ability emulating the gun-kata of films like Equilibrium. It should likewise have a bit of mobility and feel more action-packed than just being a stationary sniper turret simulator. Peacemaker just doesn't satisfy her theme. I'd prefer it if was 25 meters and adjustable by range mods. Then people can mod for extra range to get current Peacemaker like just about every other area domination frame has to. Until she sees changes Mesa seems to me like a training wheels frame that basically plays itself and doesn't live up to its gun-kata theme. Her other abilities have a lot of promise but she suffers from Saryn syndrome to where its too easy to just hunker down and let one simple ability do all the work.

 

As for Frost, I think he's a bit problematic. But enemy types make him a necessity. Lategame void defenses you have to cheese so that bombards don't one-shot the defense object. I think the defense object should be resistant to getting one-shot. It should go down due to overwhelming enemy pressure not to stray splash damage. Currently in later defenses we're stuck playing freeze tag with the enemies just in case they breath on the cryopod and it breaks and we lose an hour of work. I don't think Snow Globe is the problem here.

 

Before bombards and nullifiers a mix of various crowd control and teamwork was sufficient to keep the defense object safe. I do think these additions are good challenging anti-warframe units, but those units in particular should have their damage focused on the players and enable other units to damage the pods. Making the crypod resistant to bombard and nullifier damage would alleviate and balance out the pressure.

 

Great, thoughtful comment.

Seems Corpus will have much greater ability to negate warframe powers soon!

[Michelozzo]

I don't see the problem with Frost's Snowglobe compared to say, a Nyx Chaos causing well, chaos in a wave of enemies in a defense mission, or an Excalibur Radial Blind or (insert name of wide AoE CC here) really. Unlike the other CCs, Frost's is designed for Defense and Defense like missions so it thrives there. Its also not as good as a hard CC because well, its -not- a hard CC (even after augmenting it doesn't always freeze things, might only slow). It has the edge on efficiency in those mission types and considering the endless nature of them, Efficiency is important.

 

Mesa's Peacemaker...mmm, I honestly think it should be more like Exalted Blade and soon to be Hysteria - an Ult that is 'break out the special weapon' of the frame. Instead of making her a turret, let her remain a mobile space ninja cowgirl with badass dual pistols. Just a thought.

[Unholyrequiem]

I don't see the problem with Frost's Snowglobe compared to say, a Nyx Chaos causing well, chaos in a wave of enemies in a defense mission, or an Excalibur Radial Blind or (insert name of wide AoE CC here) really. Unlike the other CCs, Frost's is designed for Defense and Defense like missions so it thrives there. Its also not as good as a hard CC because well, its -not- a hard CC (even after augmenting it doesn't always freeze things, might only slow). It has the edge on efficiency in those mission types and considering the endless nature of them, Efficiency is important.

 

Mesa's Peacemaker...mmm, I honestly think it should be more like Exalted Blade and soon to be Hysteria - an Ult that is 'break out the special weapon' of the frame. Instead of making her a turret, let her remain a mobile space ninja cowgirl with badass dual pistols. Just a thought.

Nyx Chaos doesn't really offer as much protection as Frost's shield. Sure it's effective but enemies can still attack you and in higher difficulties it's preferable to have a low duration set up where you can spam Chaos. Chaos alone and Radial blind could never hold defense for as long as snowglobe though they may help ease the burden.

 

Both of those skills are of course useful but don't offer the same level of protection clearly.  If you can argue that it doesn't always freeze them then I can argue that Frost has an ability which can always freeze them while inflicting heavy damage on them. Snowglobe can also knock enemies out of the circle. I call your comparison invalid and poor.

 

Umm about your idea, if mesa were to retain her 360* radius and her mobility then it'd become ridiculous.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Unholyrequiem