Why Coptering And Multi Shot Changes Are Not Equivalent

[(PSN)CrackFoxLegend]

sorry if i came off as rude. i'm sad actually. i genuinely belive that the game will improve a lot and the community would be more open to change if it was not so much loot focused.

I'm not trying to be rude either but if not loot focused, then what? I played the hell out of borderlands for 2 reasons, loot and a half baked attempt at a story that was kind of intriguing. This game has both of those but has focused mainly on loot. They cannot and will not take away my loot, but do you think that it would be better off with more of a story focus?

[BraverLeech37]

sorry to burst your bubble but removing coptering and parkur 2.0 have changed the gameplay on a level that no multishot change would ever do. just swapping multishot whit any other damage mode and the difference is barely notable before like 40+ min survival. there are only handful of people that go that long on a regular basis and most of them would still manage to hang on there even without this mod.

the nerf is mostly psychological. people hear nerf and declare end of the world. most of the weapon's damage is anyways overkill.

 

Ok if you don't mind please explain to me how this nerf makes the game better in any way for the player base. How does reducing player DPS and reducing mod/weapon variety even more benefit the overall gameplay experience of the player base please enlighten me

[Tesseract7777]

The only defense for this change is if they really rebalance weapon ammo consumption in order to balance this change... I'm not holding my breath on that though. Doing it weapon by weapon piecemeal will take them ages. They really need to fix the whole ammo system. 

Edited September 6, 2015 by Tesseract7777

[(XBOX)RFIZZLEDIZZLE]

The only defense for this change is if they really rebalance weapon ammo consumption in order to balance this change... I'm not holding my breath on that though. Doing it weapon by weapon piecemeal will take them ages. They really need to fix the whole ammo system. 

It should be percentage based restores. Plus, some weapons haven't recovered from their nerfs in the switch of damage 1.0 to 2.0.

 

*Cough* Acrid *Cough*

[Dreadwire]

I still need them wall back flip

[Sh0ck-Wave]

Multi shot changes affects player damage which is a key part of this game with out any known plans to addressing Enemy armor and attack scaling to go along with this change.

 

 

Any change affects 'key' parts of the game.

I say let them change it and lets see how it goes.

In the end, it's their game .. can't deny that aspect .. and they know more about whats going to happen in the future then we do.

 

eg. Vaykor Hek

Didn't seem better then normal Hek ? Didn't accept the syndicate mod ? Didn't seem to make sense at all ..

Oh wait, multi-shot now uses rounds in your magazine.

Hey now it makes sense.

 

As soon as the red text comes along with this change you'll be laughing at the funnies it contains and updating your builds with a swath of new options and mods. 

Edited September 7, 2015 by Sh0ck-Wave

[Lightsmith]

If they hadn't added Bullet Jump the situation may be more similar. Basically they balanced coptering (not variant by weapon) and called it bullet jump. What they proposed for Multishot is a straight up nerf. It would turn Multishot into a Corrupted Mod. something that gives a benefit at the cost of something else. Except this is a 1 for 1, many corrupted give 10% and take 5% from something else. This would be shoot shots twice, take two bullets.

 

You also run into issues with a gun like the Vectis. Multishot on it would be impossible, since it only has 1 round or Bows that use single draw.

I'd rather they nerf Multishot with accuracy reduction rather than ammo. Or even a damage trade off fire twice, each shot deals 75% damage or something is preferable (though some may disagree on that part)

 

On the stream they mentioned how running out of ammo isn't much of an issue, but I think that isn't accurate. Running out of total ammo may not be, but having to reload often is, that's why I actually slow down my Boar Prime (I forget the corrupted Mod). If you get 1-2 shots off per reload its going to kill a lot of guns. I use the Soma P, Ammo isn't an issue, even with what they propose it won't be to bad, but for people who use low ammo guns, it will be a killer.

[(PSN)CrackFoxLegend]

Any change affects 'key' parts of the game.

I say let them change it and lets see how it goes.

In the end, it's their game .. can't deny that aspect .. and they know more about whats going to happen in the future then we do.

 

eg. Vaykor Hek

Didn't seem better then normal Hek ? Didn't accept the syndicate mod ? Didn't seem to make sense at all ..

Oh wait, multi-shot now uses rounds in your magazine.

Hey now it makes sense.

 

As soon as the red text comes along with this change you'll be laughing at the funnies it contains and updating your builds with a swath of new options and mods.

Space ninja's make sense to you? You live in a strange world my friend. I'm over the Multishot thing but you need to work on your defense a bit because it doesn't make sense. You said that the vaykor hek doesn't make sense unless Multishot consumes ammo. Maybe you meant to word that differently but that is what you typed turned out to say. If you can't see that then you should keep reading it until you do, because that is what it says. I'll explain: If you summarize the first three things that you typed about the vaykor hek then it says that it doesn't make sense. Then add the second part, now it says that the vaykor hek doesn't seem to make sense but now that Multishot consumes ammo, it does.

[Aschirg]

dont forget this will hugely F*** up status chance and crit weapons

[Sh0ck-Wave]

Space ninja's make sense to you? You live in a strange world my friend. I'm over the Multishot thing but you need to work on your defense a bit because it doesn't make sense. You said that the vaykor hek doesn't make sense unless Multishot consumes ammo. Maybe you meant to word that differently but that is what you typed turned out to say. If you can't see that then you should keep reading it until you do, because that is what it says. I'll explain: If you summarize the first three things that you typed about the vaykor hek then it says that it doesn't make sense. Then add the second part, now it says that the vaykor hek doesn't seem to make sense but now that Multishot consumes ammo, it does.

 

Vaykor Hek has 8 rounds, normal Hek has 4.

200% multishot reduces normal Hek to 1 shot (3 rounds used) + 1 normal

If they add the synd mod after this change to the Vaykor then adding 200% multi-shot to Vaykor Hek means you get 2 shots @ 3 rounds each.

Even if they don't the Vaykor still wins as at 100% you'll be back to 4 shots.

Vaykor = better with multishot bug 'fixed'

 

Does this make sense to you now, or would you prefer I type it in Spanish ?

[atom]

The only defense for this change is if they really rebalance weapon ammo consumption in order to balance this change... I'm not holding my breath on that though. Doing it weapon by weapon piecemeal will take them ages. They really need to fix the whole ammo system. 

and straight +dmg mods, and the enemy scaling, and weapons and warframe power.. the amount of work needed for this change to be considered a good thing seems huge to me. a damage 3.0 kind of thing. and i must ask myself why now? how does this improve the game?

 

p.s. i still miss directional melee and the wallrunning animation that was actually wallrunning hot hopping

Edited September 7, 2015 by ..atom..

[(PSN)wonderwoman814]

this again -_-

[(XBOX)RFIZZLEDIZZLE]

Any change affects 'key' parts of the game.

I say let them change it and lets see how it goes.

In the end, it's their game .. can't deny that aspect .. and they know more about whats going to happen in the future then we do.

 

You really wanna take that bet? It's supposed to be the Year of Quality, and yet they have actually increased the grind. Drop tables are being diluted, primes are being vaulted to shorten supply and increase plat spending, they still haven't changed the rotations back to A,B,C. The only thing resembling quality so far has been PK 2.0, and even that isn't redeeming enough. 

 

Heck, even look at the nerf-buff cycle that has been happening since forever. Trinity and Excal in particular.

 

DE goes out of their way to make syndicate weapon augments work with exalted blade, then out of the blue decides to nerf it because it "wasn't working as intended." Same deal with multishot. It is a two year old mod that they have stated it's working condition as a "Bug," when they decide to say that now in line with a convenient nerf proposal. No other devstream even hinted that multishot wasn't working as intended. "Not working as intended," is a running joke now. These type of stupid, unexplained reasons are riveting to a good chunk of the playerbase.

 

You wanna talk about realism? Then why are you playing Warframe? How is artificially increasing hangtime in mid-air seem realistic? How is moving slowly in a certain direction mid-air decrease enemy accuracy? How am I blocking bullets with my sword, yet I am still taking damage from the gunshot? The list goes on and on.

 

Sure, they produce the game, but we play it way more than they do. We are the customer that makes sure they have a roof to sleep under. If the community is this split about multishot nerf without a revamp to the whole system, they better listen because a lot of promising games are coming out in the fall. 

[JDP04]

can anyone tell me why suddenly DE decide multishot not consume more ammo was not intended?

and what positive will come out from multishot eat more ammo?

i didn't watch the devstream.. :/

[KillingDyl]

Sure, they produce the game, but we play it way more than they do. We are the customer that makes sure they have a roof to sleep under. If the community is this split about multishot nerf without a revamp to the whole system, they better listen because a lot of promising games are coming out in the fall. 

 

Thats what everyone said when Destiny came out last year... Look what happened now. Also you have to remember that the forum community =/= the playerbase. There are a lot of players that never even touch the forums aside from reading patch notes.

[(PSN)CrackFoxLegend]

Vaykor Hek has 8 rounds, normal Hek has 4.

200% multishot reduces normal Hek to 1 shot (3 rounds used) + 1 normal

If they add the synd mod after this change to the Vaykor then adding 200% multi-shot to Vaykor Hek means you get 2 shots @ 3 rounds each.

Even if they don't the Vaykor still wins as at 100% you'll be back to 4 shots.

Vaykor = better with multishot bug 'fixed'

 

Does this make sense to you now, or would you prefer I type it in Spanish ?

Si multishot "error" fue un error en absoluto y que eran conscientes de ello, y luego había una razón que no "arreglan" durante dos años chico inteligente. Meaning it wasn't a bug at all or they felt like it was going to be needed for the future content they were going to release, like T4 content. Besides, it seems what I said about your post went completely over your head.

[(PSN)CrackFoxLegend]

You really wanna take that bet? It's supposed to be the Year of Quality, and yet they have actually increased the grind. Drop tables are being diluted, primes are being vaulted to shorten supply and increase plat spending, they still haven't changed the rotations back to A,B,C. The only thing resembling quality so far has been PK 2.0, and even that isn't redeeming enough. 

 

Heck, even look at the nerf-buff cycle that has been happening since forever. Trinity and Excal in particular.

 

DE goes out of their way to make syndicate weapon augments work with exalted blade, then out of the blue decides to nerf it because it "wasn't working as intended." Same deal with multishot. It is a two year old mod that they have stated it's working condition as a "Bug," when they decide to say that now in line with a convenient nerf proposal. No other devstream even hinted that multishot wasn't working as intended. "Not working as intended," is a running joke now. These type of stupid, unexplained reasons are riveting to a good chunk of the playerbase.

 

You wanna talk about realism? Then why are you playing Warframe? How is artificially increasing hangtime in mid-air seem realistic? How is moving slowly in a certain direction mid-air decrease enemy accuracy? How am I blocking bullets with my sword, yet I am still taking damage from the gunshot? The list goes on and on.

 

Sure, they produce the game, but we play it way more than they do. We are the customer that makes sure they have a roof to sleep under. If the community is this split about multishot nerf without a revamp to the whole system, they better listen because a lot of promising games are coming out in the fall.

Not to mention that this whole Multishot thing conveniently came along a couple of days after a big thread about it blew up on the forums. Nobody believe that? Feel free to check my very first post on the forums.

[Aesthetic_Dialectic]

They gonna buff overall damage as well

 

it sound like a good trade off

 

 

They never said that. Don't give people false info.

They did say they would balance it out. Whatever that means. As well people are just going to ignore the insane power creep going on? Like are you going to act like turning level 80 enemies into liquid is okay?

[TheBrsrkr]

Not to mention that this whole Multishot thing conveniently came along a couple of days after a big thread about it blew up on the forums. Nobody believe that? Feel free to check my very first post on the forums.

Don't be dense. This was decided long before that thread. Unless you think DE somehow made 3 syndicate weapons in a week.

[(PSN)CrackFoxLegend]

Don't be dense. This was decided long before that thread. Unless you think DE somehow made 3 syndicate weapons in a week.

I'm sure they didn't but are you telling me that the entire reason that they are doing this is because of one syndicate weapon? Now who's being dense. I don't recall being rude to you either.

They did say they would balance it out. Whatever that means. As well people are just going to ignore the insane power creep going on? Like are you going to act like turning level 80 enemies into liquid is okay?

Teach me your ways please, I have never seen a level 80 anything turn to liquid yet.

[(XBOX)RFIZZLEDIZZLE]

They did say they would balance it out. Whatever that means. As well people are just going to ignore the insane power creep going on? Like are you going to act like turning level 80 enemies into liquid is okay?

The enemies have just as much power creep as we do. Is a rocket that can kill you in one-shot and track you half way across the map balanced? How about a crewman wielding a strun that can fire so quickly, yet only needs one-shot to take you down in later rotations? Let's not forget the nullifier and how enemies can just camp in it's bubble and spam at you. 

[Aesthetic_Dialectic]

I'm sure they didn't but are you telling me that the entire reason that they are doing this is because of one syndicate weapon? Now who's being dense. I don't recall being rude to you either.

Teach me your ways please, I have never seen a level 80 anything turn to liquid yet.

The standard four corrosive projections with viral damage on one of those super over powered guns, like ya know, Soma Prime, Boltor Prime, Torid, Amprex, Formerly the Synoid Gammacor(RIP), and a few others that escape me atm. 

 

The enemies have just as much power creep as we do. Is a rocket that can kill you in one-shot and track you half way across the map balanced? How about a crewman wielding a strun that can fire so quickly, yet only needs one-shot to take you down in later rotations? Let's not forget the nullifier and how enemies can just camp in it's bubble and spam at you. 

Considering almost every team composition has at least one form of CC that makes those bombard's rockets not do anything to you, I fail to see how that matters. Nullifiers are great and I stand by that in every case. They prevent CC spamming, they prevent Shield Polarize spamming, they force you to actually you know THINK about how to tackle to enemies up a head instead of just aiming your weapon in that... kind of general direction... Now there is a problem with swarms of them in later defenses and such, but Torids ignore their bubble, and enemies swarming like crazy is a a fundamental flaw in the game design as a whole, not weapon strength.

[(XBOX)RFIZZLEDIZZLE]

 

Considering almost every team composition has at least one form of CC that makes those bombard's rockets not do anything to you, I fail to see how that matters. Nullifiers are great and I stand by that in every case. They prevent CC spamming, they prevent Shield Polarize spamming, they force you to actually you know THINK about how to tackle to enemies up a head instead of just aiming your weapon in that... kind of general direction... Now there is a problem with swarms of them in later defenses and such, but Torids ignore their bubble, and enemies swarming like crazy is a a fundamental flaw in the game design as a whole, not weapon strength.

Considering how nullifier bubbles make abilities useless, I fail to see how bombard rockets don't matter. Nullifiers are a bandaid patch to fix ability spam. Torid got stealth nerfed and doesn't churn out high damage like it used to. The other solution to nullifiers without breaking composition would be glaive, but that can't keep up with their health in higher end missions. So no, it kind of still is aiming your weapon in that general direction since you have to down their shields. If a player sees a nullifier bubble, they will shoot it because that is an effective strategy, just like any other enemy. Apparently that is a strategy that takes a lot of thinking.

 

Not to mention the ancients that provide huge amounts of damage reduction for enemies. 

Edited September 8, 2015 by (XB1)RFIZZLEDIZZLE

[f3llyn]

The removal of coptering didn't make the game better. It's a silly ballerine fest now.

 

Yes. Yes it did. I offer my opinion as fact because I can.

[Aesthetic_Dialectic]

Considering how nullifier bubbles make abilities useless, I fail to see how bombard rockets don't matter. Nullifiers are a bandaid patch to fix ability spam. Torid got stealth nerfed and doesn't churn out high damage like it used to. The other solution to nullifiers without breaking composition would be glaive, but that can't keep up with their health in higher end missions. So no, it kind of still is aiming your weapon in that general direction since you have to down their shields. If a player sees a nullifier bubble, they will shoot it because that is an effective strategy, just like any other enemy. Apparently that is a strategy that takes a lot of thinking.  

Firstly, Nullifier bubbles don't make abilities useless, they make it so abilities do not affect that area. Which means, yes you can still use your abilities to stop enemies from doing stuff. They also only work if the bubble is up, you can, in fact, remove the bubble, cast an ability and affect them and everything that was covered by them. Secondly, bombards also exist in the raid where there are no Nullifiers to be seen considering they are a corpus enemy. Thirdly, aiming at an enemy is not the same as when you basically swipe your Soma or other top tier weapon across a group of enemies to turn them all into minced meats. Do not conflate two different things as the same thing.