Helping to fix Ash's 'Underpowered' status.

[Konnstruct]

This is just one of a bunch of proposals on how to fix it (as well as a revival of the topic).

As most of you know, Ash is pretty underpowered. Such an expensive warframe is not very effective on the battlefield, especially when compared to other frames.

So here are my thoughts on the matter:

1. The shuriken ability should throw out three shurikens, instead of one, and should seek out enemies. The ability as it is feels like I'm throwing styrofoam.

2. The smoke screen should have a larger AoE and should last longer, it's simply too small in too short of time to do very much.

3. The teleport ability feels like it was put in because no one could think of anything else. It's relatively useless and mostly a novelty. Now since Ash is more of a melee-oriented frame, I say this ability is replaced completely with 'Blade Flurry', this is an attack that propells the user forward a few feet while spinning, dealing damage to enemies surrounding the user. The attack should also have increased damage and should hit several times in rapid succession. This would, of course, raise the energy cost again.

Here's a little visualization...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A95pUDGhg-s

It's about 1:50 in.

[Zakalwe]

So basically give Ash a version of Excalibur's 1 skill?

Doesn't sound too intriguing..

Edited January 19, 2013 by Zakalwe

[sambarpowder]

So basically give Ash a version of Excalibur's 1 skill?

Doesn't sound too intriguing..

I don't think that's what he meant

[Zakalwe]

I don't think that's what he meant

"an attack that propells the user forward a few feet while spinning, dealing damage to enemies surrounding the user."

Sounds very similar: an attack that throws you forward damaging enemies in your path.

OK, so it's a little shorter range and has slightly more aoe? Still, hardly an inspiring idea.

[MJ12]

Why do you want yet another forward charge attack? Don't we have enough of those?

I think teleport should immediately unleash a charge melee attack when you come out of it, with extra ranks in teleport giving you bonus melee damage and damage resistance for a few seconds while you come out of teleport. That'd make it unique and interesting.

Alternatively it should stun enemies around the exit point.

Edited January 19, 2013 by MJ12

[PhantomWay]

Garen's spinattack?

3. The teleport ability feels like it was put in because no one could think of anything else. It's relatively useless and mostly a novelty. Now since Ash is more of a melee-oriented frame, I say this ability is replaced completely with 'Blade Flurry', this is an attack that propells the user forward a few feet while spinning, dealing damage to enemies surrounding the user. The attack should also have increased damage and should hit several times in rapid succession.

Garen's spinattack? XD

I think teleport should immediately unleash a charge melee attack when you come out of it, with extra ranks in teleport giving you bonus melee damage and damage resistance for a few seconds while you come out of teleport. That'd make it unique and interesting.

Katarina's Shunpo? :p

[ArcanumMBD]

Why Ash is solid:

Shuriken:

This lil guy is a beast, but the trickiest skillshot to pull off in the game.All three upgrades plus a ~24% power damage mod (I forget the exact number I'm using) and it deals ~600 damage (and it ignores armor). With a headshot that's ~1200 damage. Even without getting headshots, unloading four or more of these suckers into a single target is some serious damage.

With that said, I feel the base damage should be higher, with less damage from upgrade boosts to compensate. The total damage should be about the same, but make the shuriken more effective for non-supercharged Ashes.

Smoke Bomb

This isn't Loki's cloak. For one it costs less, so the cloak time should be less. It also has the added benefit of a short daze. Plus when you're cloaked you have the guaranteed crits with melee, so don't forget to take advantage of that. The only problem I have with Smoke Bomb is that 35 energy is a weird cost, and I like having my energy at nice clean multiples of 25.

Teleport

Fun mobility skill, especially for a melee and/or shotgun Ash. Allows you to get in close, retreat to a teammate, it's plenty versatile in the right hands. And since they dropped the cost down to 25, I have no qualms with the skill.

Blade Storm

Fantastic skill, if a little buggy. You can get knocked out it if something staggers you, and sometimes you won't teleport to a moving enemy properly, or you'll teleport to a corpse, but the damage more than makes up for the missteps.

I feel like the people complaining about Ash are the folks used to Excalibur dashing through entire rooms and murdering everything, or Volt blasting everything to smitherings. If you want Ash to be a skill-based damage character, you need to get power damage mods and specialize into that. Ash is an advanced frame with versatility. If you can't channel that versatility, well then that's on you.

[Labcat]

Garen's spinattack? XD

Katarina's Shunpo? :p

Garen's Judgment does not boost Garen's speed at all.

And Katarina's Shunpo does nothing more than just Damage reduction and the jump itself. And she jumps BEHIND people.

Still unique.

[MJ12]

I feel like the people complaining about Ash are the folks used to Excalibur dashing through entire rooms and murdering everything, or Volt blasting everything to smitherings. If you want Ash to be a skill-based damage character, you need to get power damage mods and specialize into that. Ash is an advanced frame with versatility. If you can't channel that versatility, well then that's on you.

I'm used to Ember and her problems with putting decent damage on anything which isn't already made of paper and dies fast from fire, and Ash still feels underpowered. Massively so.

[Ronyn]

Shuriken:

This lil guy is a beast, but the trickiest skillshot to pull off in the game.All three upgrades plus a ~24% power damage mod (I forget the exact number I'm using) and it deals ~600 damage (and it ignores armor). With a headshot that's ~1200 damage. Even without getting headshots, unloading four or more of these suckers into a single target is some serious damage.

With that said, I feel the base damage should be higher, with less damage from upgrade boosts to compensate. The total damage should be about the same, but make the shuriken more effective for non-supercharged Ashes.

Does the shuriken do something that the gun in your hands cant do?

Teleport

Fun mobility skill, especially for a melee and/or shotgun Ash. Allows you to get in close, retreat to a teammate, it's plenty versatile in the right hands. And since they dropped the cost down to 25, I have no qualms with the skill.

What about how often the enemy just smacks you as your teleport animation is completing?

I think teleport should immediately unleash a charge melee attack when you come out of it, with extra ranks in teleport giving you bonus melee damage and damage resistance for a few seconds while you come out of teleport. That'd make it unique and interesting.

Alternatively it should stun enemies around the exit point.

This is it right here.

Right now you have to try to time the charge attack to release as soon as the telport ends.

Tricky tricky....but you have to do it otherwise youll often get gunsmacked in the head. lol

[Konnstruct]

Why do you want yet another forward charge attack? Don't we have enough of those?

I think teleport should immediately unleash a charge melee attack when you come out of it, with extra ranks in teleport giving you bonus melee damage and damage resistance for a few seconds while you come out of teleport. That'd make it unique and interesting.

Alternatively it should stun enemies around the exit point.

Bro, I never said it was a charge attack, in fact, it's not ven close. The user is pushed forward slightly, like a couple of feet during the attack, in order to increase it's range a little.

In my opinion, Sword Dash is way more suited for Ash, but I doubt a change like that would happen so I thought of something else.

Blade Storm, while extremely effective, is the ONLY blade-based ability, Ash has, which makes so sense to me since he is supposedly melee-based.

Also, the modification to teleport you are describing is the exact same thing as Blade Storm (given that affects less enemies).

You contradict yourself...

Edited January 19, 2013 by FrydHamstr

[ArcanumMBD]

I'm used to Ember and her problems with putting decent damage on anything which isn't already made of paper and dies fast from fire, and Ash still feels underpowered. Massively so.

Fair enough. Personally I went Loki -> Excali Prime -> Ash, so I my progression was "no attack skills and pure versatility" -> "zomg everything dies when I push 1 or 4, this is ridiculous" -> "hey this is a nice mix of damage and versatility"

I mean, Ash probably could use a buff, but a complete skill overhaul like many of these "Ash is UP" threads suggest is not the way to do it.

Does the shuriken do something that the gun in your hands cant do?

Outputs instant high-ish damage that penetrates armor. It's not meant as a gun replacement (like Excali's #1) it's meant to supplement.

What about how often the enemy just smacks you as your teleport animation is completing?

I've never had that happen to me because I either shotgun the enemy as soon as I teleport, or open with a regular slash to stagger before using a charge slash.

[Konnstruct]

I feel like the people complaining about Ash are the folks used to Excalibur dashing through entire rooms and murdering everything, or Volt blasting everything to smitherings. If you want Ash to be a skill-based damage character, you need to get power damage mods and specialize into that. Ash is an advanced frame with versatility. If you can't channel that versatility, well then that's on you.

Then what is the point of getting the warframe? A new warframe is new skills, and if they arent effective, then why on earth would anyone want it?

His abilities simply aren't as effective as they should be, and is not the melee character he is advertised to be.

Just because Ash's energy cost for abilities was reduced doesn't mean that he is suddenly more effective. As ash currently stands, I would take ANY other frame any day.

Edited January 19, 2013 by FrydHamstr

[Ronyn]

His abilities simply aren't as effective as they should be, and is not the melee character he is advertised to be.

I agree about his skills needing to be punched up.

But what are you talking about when you "the melee character he is advertised to be"?

The explination of ash never mentions a melee specialty though the excaliburs does mention powerful sword attacks.

Which is why sayings tuff like that and "slash dash fits ash better" arent based on anything advertised.

Thats just based on your own views.

which is fine...but dont get it twisted.

The closest to it is that teleport brings you to melee range. which is exactly what it does.

Personally Id rather they just improve teleports initial impact through an attack, stun or stealth.

It gives him range to close in on distant targets. used properly it can get you out of kill boxes or take you higher elevations.

That is a very different utility that some sort of aoe slash like you suggest.

Logically the shuriken needs to be improved to take the place of the direct damage to those in front ability and teleport slash should remain the distance closer it is.

Outputs instant high-ish damage that penetrates armor. It's not meant as a gun replacement (like Excali's #1) it's meant to supplement.

Problem is that youre spending energy...

So its competing with both your gun and your other powers.

I can kill anything I'm aiming at with a few shots from my hek (often also staggering and stuning my target)so why would I spend energy to do the same only to then have less for the other powers that add additional utility.

Shuriken needs to offer some utility that shooting does not.

If not we are using it largely just because we feel like it not because proper tactics call it into play.

I've never had that happen to me because I either shotgun the enemy as soon as I teleport, or open with a regular slash to stagger before using a charge slash.

In my experiance the animation is often not done fast enough for a shotgun blast or normal swing to come out before the enemy gunsmacks.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Ronyn

[MJ12]

Bro, I never said it was a charge attack, in fact, it's not ven close. The user is pushed forward slightly, like a couple of feet during the attack, in order to increase it's range a little.

So it's like a crappy version of Overheat? That... isn't balancing it! I've leveled Excalibur, Rhino, and Ember to 30 and am working on Ash. A melee AoE is extremely underpowered in general because most enemies don't get into melee range, and the ones which do you can murder with melee weapons.

In my opinion, Sword Dash is way more suited for Ash, but I doubt a change like that would happen so I thought of something else.

Blade Storm, while extremely effective, is the ONLY blade-based ability, Ash has, which makes so sense to me since he is supposedly melee-based.

Ash is a ninja. Not 'melee-based', like Excalibur (notice every power Excalibur has either involves swords or helps him get into melee faster). Teleport is a really cool power that should stay in, because it has utility, theoretical offensive usefulness, and looks really cool.

Also, the modification to teleport you are describing is the exact same thing as Blade Storm (given that affects less enemies).

You contradict yourself...

Blade Storm is pretty unique and no other character has a teleport attack quite like it. You could have it just stun enemies around the exit point and give temporary damage resistance + immunity to stagger/knockdown to Ash when he comes out of it, which would provide it similar utility (if the stun's long enough that you can get a heavy melee off).

Also, that idea of Shuriken being a "5 energy skill"? I actually like that and hope DE tries it. Make it rapid-fire with a really fast animation and you have a unique combat skill that allows Ash to do something nobody else can, which is 'snipe people with powers repeatedly and cheaply without really caring about the power bar'.

(the irony here is that it means Ash has the alternative to gunplay but still).

Edited January 19, 2013 by MJ12

[Ronyn]

I'm used to Ember and her problems with putting decent damage on anything which isn't already made of paper and dies fast from fire, and Ash still feels underpowered. Massively so.

I was looking at grabbing ember next but i was afraid of that...

guess when im done leveling ash Ill cosndier someone else.

[MJ12]

I was looking at grabbing ember next but i was afraid of that...

guess when im done leveling ash Ill cosndier someone else.

She's not as underpowered as Ash!

Fire Blast is pretty amazing and World on Fire is okay for an Ultimate. Overheat is mostly useful for the damage resistance rather than its actual damage, though, and fireball is pretty bad because it lacks real splash damage and is affected by armor.

[herflik]

1) Shuriken should be more responsive and should teleport you to the target if you succes to hit something with it. That would be nice single target burst and gap closer spell, perfect for melee character.

2)Smoke screen should get some love, its just so short comparing to invisiblity of loki. The smoke screen could cover the area for like 5seconds, and while you are in it, you are invisible and do increased melee damage. Something like Akali skill in league of legends, each time you hit you are briefly visible.

3)Since teleport is in shuriken, you can add another skills. I would go with a buff that change/boost next charge attack you do (or few of them).

4) Blade storm just need some bug fixes.

Edited January 19, 2013 by herflik