Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[MaverickZero]

Seeing how this is most likely going to be feedback ignored (since Scott and Pablo swear that its OP right now) I decided to let it go.

 

I'll play Saryn with Spore and Molt to squeeze some fun out of this reworked mess. Completely ignoring the existence of her 3rd and 4th abilities has improved my experience tremendously. This is almost the same build as Tank Saryn which is without a doubt one of the weakest tanks - the same build I used before the rework which has no role to fulfill.

[L3xhus]

This is a great example of developers trying to slow the game down to extend the overall playtime that it has to offer. Warframe needs nukers, and it sure as hell doesn't need DoT. These kind of nerfs already made me drop games like LoL, Dota and so on, and this little nerf made me think I'll drop warframe in the near future too.

[RexRgisIocus]

The negative duration is supposed to be the downside to using that helmet. The fact that people used it for the downside just shows how screwed up Saryn was.

Edited November 6, 2015 by [DE]Danielle
Removed hidden post

[(PSN)kira4715]

Seeing how this is most likely going to be feedback ignored (since Scott and Pablo swear that its OP right now) I decided to let it go.

 

I'll play Saryn with Spore and Molt to squeeze some fun out of this reworked mess. Completely ignoring the existence of her 3rd and 4th abilities has improved my experience tremendously. This is almost the same build as Tank Saryn which is without a doubt one of the weakest tanks - the same build I used before the rework which has no role to fulfill.

You hit the nail on the head any negative feedback about the rework will fall on deaf ears and it sucks 

[Hecko]

What in getting at is that you have a problem because I he devs changed something in the game, which they are allowed to do.

I'm not against changes, I'm against work poorly done. I still remember we are in beta, that's why I made this topic.

I use aim glide and wall latch.

Of course you do, we all do. But at wave 40 when 2 bombard, and other 22 mobs appears you dont wall latch and shoot, you just shoot. That's the fastest thing to do, that's the simpliest and with logicly saying the better choice to beat them, instead of taking 2-3 seconds to find a wall, latching to it, aiming at their head and start shooting, because at that time maybe a rocket already stunned you.

 

Also, make this clear. Never assume your speaking for everyone. Your opinions are only Yours. Don't force your opinions onto a community, that never works. History is the proof of that. Understand? Saying that everyone hates the rework, or Noone ever uses aim glide and wall latch is a great way to get people to disagree with you.

I never speaked for the community, I pointed out the logic in game.

Again, if you have a braton:

you just dont waste time 1) wall latching and shoot, 2) you just start shooting.

I'm not speaking for everyone, but if everyone from Nightmare raids, to simple defense mission on Earth, from MR20 (I use MR just for refence to been playing for long time) to MR 4 go always for the 2), it's because it's the most logic and then easiest and fastest way, and then the most right one.

Everyone who played Saryn used her as a nuke, and would get in the way of other players.

This is not an issue, there is closed lobby, clan, alliance, other then PUGS. If you dont like PUGS, that's your choice. As I dont like people who speedrun normal solar system mission, you dont like nukers, but that's our problem right ?

The rework makes Saryn more of a team playing frame, but still work as a solo frame. The fact that you haven't yet figured our how means you may not have experimented yet, if any, or you don't know what your doing.

Saryn as it was, was perfect for solo, and useful as a nuke when needed. You didint use her on RAID, that wasnt her role, and you could use her on void defens for minor mobs, while team buff, protect, kill the gunners/bombards with viral/radiation damage.

I could like her as she is now, I literally can spend 5 min reading the stats, looking the % to know how I can use her, but still they took out something from her for no reasons. Again, a nuke in warframe is not requested everywhere, do you see that right ?

 

Welcome to warframe, some things too powerful, or domination over others, it gets put in place with the others.

The nail that sticks up gets beaten down.

Again, Saryn wasnt a nuke with high survaving capabilities well served for a new player. She need hell of mods to reach pure nuke perfection: overextended, transient fortitude, fleeting expertise, regenerative molt (and i'm not including intensify, streamline, stretch, and all the fusion cores to upgrading it).

The problem wasnt saryn, the problem are the mods they keep adding.

And if you want to say the weapons are also unbalanced, devs already said that they were going to re assign master rank requirements for weapons, since it's ridiculous for a mr2 player to run around with a boltor prime and such. All weapon requirements currently are based on the Mr cap being like 8 to 10. People didn't like the Syndicate weapon requirements, but that took into account the cap of 18 to 20.

Again, you havent read what I wrote, or you cant see facts. Warframe is not only based on DPS damage, but mostly on CC and AoE, so weapons changes doesnt affect us as mush as warframe changes. This is not an opinion, it's a fact.

 

I don't care what a video said, even if it's from someone like Mogamu. That is just one perspective

No it wasnt a perspective video, as the damage 2.0 system is it now, 3 on 4 types of enemies suffer the highest damage from corrosive and heat (grineers, infested, corrupted). If you have to forma build a weapon to the top, you better be doing it thinking about putting corrosive and fire.

The video simply explained this referring to the datas on wikis. So even if the system allows creativity with 3 base damage and other 6 elements, you'll end up using always corrosive and heat. This simple fact make the system useless if the best choice for 3/4 of the game is just one.

Just like the movement 2.0 which is good as it is, but useless in long term playstyle, and I already explained it showing you the facts and not the opinions.

Edited November 5, 2015 by [DE]Danielle

[AutumnBramble]

You hit the nail on the head any negative feedback about the rework will fall on deaf ears and it sucks 

 

I'd kind of hope with so much of this feedback being negative and constructive and actually explaining exactly why this is a bad change (and like everyone is in agreement why this is a bad change) they'll actually fix it and make Saryn interesting to use?

 

It's okay to have faith in DE, right...? Valkyr and Frost and Excalibur were done so well...

[Hecko]

The negative duration is supposed to be the downside to using that helmet. The fact that people used it for the downside just shows how screwed up Saryn was.

But the positive effect from downsiding duration on Saryn came from DE rework 1 years ago. WTF cant u remember ? How can you trow it back at the players ?

 

She was good.

Then it came out transient fortitude, and she went from good to powerful nuker.

Then it came out regenerative molt, and she went from powerful nuker, to powerful nuker with perfect survival capabilities and excellent efficiency-Aoe damage balance.

The problem is the mods, not the frame. As mogamu said, "there will be always a viver" or a loot cave, or an OP thing.

Understanding this is the key to stop commetting the same mistake.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Hecko

[Meatuchu]

Too much synergy between powers:

 

You can't build for any specific attribute without gutting the rest of her powers, and because they're all so codependent, it weakens them all. All in all, I'm disappointed.

[JamXmed]

I'd kind of hope with so much of this feedback being negative and constructive and actually explaining exactly why this is a bad change (and like everyone is in agreement why this is a bad change) they'll actually fix it and make Saryn interesting to use?

 

It's okay to have faith in DE, right...? Valkyr and Frost and Excalibur were done so well...

then again, remember how they applied bandaid fixes to Limbo and, more recently, Atlas after people trolled with them... hard... They've never really had great foresight towards matters like this but they may possibly fix it to where it's playable. *Crosses fingers waiting for the inevitable ban for insulting the gods*

[NKDG]

Wow 40 pages of QQ and it hasn't even been 24 hours.

 

Talk about something that needed to happen...more people were abusing Saryn than I thought!

Not everyone is complaining about miasma, i'm personally annoyed that i lost 200 health on my tank build, (and she's supposed to be a melee frame mind you!) and regenrative molt is still locked to 10 seconds! i can't get up close with a gimp melee powers, less health, and less than satisfactory regen that used to suffice when i had that health!

[TheBrsrkr]

You hit the nail on the head any negative feedback about the rework will fall on deaf ears and it sucks 

Negative feedback is heard perfectly well. This isn't negative feedback. It's whining. "I don't like it" is not constructive feedback.

[NKDG]

 

Also GIVE MEH BECK MEH 25 HP!!1! seriously though... 872HP with the arcane hemlock helmet as opposed to her old 1100(ish)HP? why?

 

this is what pisses me off

[(PSN)kira4715]

Negative feedback is heard perfectly well. This isn't negative feedback. It's whining. "I don't like it" is not constructive feedback.

You seem to ignore the vast amount of constructive feedback lol 

[JamXmed]

 

-EDIT-

HOLY CRAP! THAT'S IT! THAT'S WHAT I FELT WAS SO OFF! SHE'S TOO SYNERGISTIC!

 

Compare her to Excalibur who's abilities are complimentary of each other, Slash dash being great mobility with panic control on Radial Blind. A decent emergency clear on radial javelin, if you built him with that in mind. And all his abilities are buffed when you activate his ult.

 

Saryn, on the other hand, Requires you to gather the enemies into an area, spread spore around to everyone while also trying to proc toxic. this all done easiest by casting Decoy then Spore followed by a spray from the Sobek modded for Condi Gas to proc an AOE toxic proc (Obviously with any form of punch through) then after that's all done, you finish the enemy with a rather mediocre ult that requires either amazing team play or a ridiculous build. You end up being squishy with a burst that takes almost 10 seconds to pull off (Considering you have to let the DoT do its thing coming to just a little bit more damage than it used to be able to do) and a whole bar of energy.

 

Know that when an ability "Requires" something else to happen before it, it just means it's boring or weak for most players.

Edited November 6, 2015 by [DE]Danielle

[(PSN)kira4715]

I'd kind of hope with so much of this feedback being negative and constructive and actually explaining exactly why this is a bad change (and like everyone is in agreement why this is a bad change) they'll actually fix it and make Saryn interesting to use?

 

It's okay to have faith in DE, right...? Valkyr and Frost and Excalibur were done so well...

We can hope they'll listen but i'm not holding my breath better to plan for the worst hope for the best

[Raniu]

i'm personally annoyed that i lost 200 health on my tank build, (and she's supposed to be a melee frame mind you!) and regenrative molt is still locked to 10 seconds! i can't get up close with a gimp melee powers, less health, and less than satisfactory regen that used to suffice when i had that health!

 

You want to play Saryn BOTH as a tank AND melee? Too bad her Toxic Lash now further reduces damage on parrying and even is affected by power strength :P

[Dojutrek]

I personally hated the pre-rework Saryn, not only did it not mesh with my play style but I definitely didn't feel right just mashing her fourth ability endlessly. The rework allowed me to return to Saryn unbiased and willing to give her a new lease on life, as I haven't played her for well over a year. What I discovered is that she's not bad in her current state, but she needs some work in terms of quality of life improvements.

 

For starters, her first ability "Spore" should soft-lock on targets or be allowed to hit multiple enemies within a straight line from Saryn's targeting reticule. While I was playing, I found it difficult to accurately place spores on targets or Molt while I was moving. I had to actively slow down my play in order to use the ability with any sort of precision. A simple QoL fix for this issue would provide a way to hit her targets while keeping a mobile play style. Also from reading this thread, I noticed a lot of people saying that "Spore" should spread when it expires, but I don't feel that's needed with Molt as a catalyst for spore. It's risky to get in the middle of a group of foes then cast Molt and Spore, but the resulting damage is well worth it.

 

As for Molt, her second ability, I found it to be a perfect addition with the above mentioned Spore. As when it dies or the duration expires, it peppers all enemies within the radius of effect with both Toxin and the Spores on it. It's a great "Get in, Get out" ability for those looking to do hit-and-run tactics, which is mostly what I like to do. I have no problems with this ability, it does what it's advertised to do and is effective when it counts. However, it could use some damage and survivability scaling improvements in the late game a bit (Void T3+). 

 

Her Third ability, Toxic Lash, is sort of a mixed bag. I don't use it often, but when I do it's usually with a weapon I can cleave multiple enemies with. It's sort of a situational deal for me, if I can get into a group of enemies mostly unscathed I usually would rather like to cast Molt rather than Lash. However, I do like that it pops the spores and is reasonably quick to cast, so I have no problems with this ability overall. It adds some flavor for those who don't want to rely completely on Molt or just want to go Melee-only. Overall, nothing wrong here either, but if I could improve it I would provide it with a Corrosive proc which would align itself well with Saryn's passive.

 

Finally her Fourth ability, Miasma, is in a bit of a questionable state with me. I like that it provides enemies under a Viral or Toxin proc additional damage, but it seems a bit lacking in the range and damage departments. I guess if I were to suggest an improvement, I'd say give it at least a small range buff for the trouble and have it scale a bit better with the effects it relies on. If there was any addition I could say about it, I'd allow Corrosive procs to be included in the damage calculation but only at the lowest of scaling possible, as she is a Toxin and Viral focused frame.

 

In conclusion, I do like the new Saryn. I just hope that there will be improvements down the line to give her some better scaling. I will also continue to edit this post with potential improvements.

 

EDIT:

In addition, maybe include a visual numerical representation on the HUD for the amount of damage Miasma absorbed through Saryn's other abilities. I also sometimes question if there's a duration associated with the absorption, but it's something that could be improved upon by just adding more information to the player. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Dojutrek

[InFlames]

Thanks DE well done now the remaining 75% of warframe's players can now play the game.

[Volinus7]

Miasma should guarantee corrosive proc on each DoT.

[Fi-le]

ADD MORE POWER RANGE PLEASE!!!!!

[TheBrsrkr]

you're rather toxic now aren't you? complaining about not discussing things on the mega thread then complaining how everyone is whining about change. Way more toxic than Spore though that's hardly saying much as you seem to be ignoring most of the points people are getting at about how she has been crippled by an attempt to make a warframes abilities synergistic rather than complimentary.

As far as I can see she works perfectly fine on my end. I didn't say she was perfect. Spore could use some tweaking, Molt still doesn't scale, Toxic Lash's increased blocking ability seems a tad redundant at this point, and I do not understand why her health was nerfed. I have said my piece already, many pages ago. That's not what I'm talking about.

 

Seeing how this is most likely going to be feedback ignored (since Scott and Pablo swear that its OP right now) I decided to let it go.

 

I'll play Saryn with Spore and Molt to squeeze some fun out of this reworked mess. Completely ignoring the existence of her 3rd and 4th abilities has improved my experience tremendously. This is almost the same build as Tank Saryn which is without a doubt one of the weakest tanks - the same build I used before the rework which has no role to fulfill.

This is what I'm talking about. This isn't feedback. This isn't "hitting the nail on the head". THis is a person that simply says "I don't like her 3 and 4 abilities now GG DE" and  nothing else.  And most of the comments in this thread amount to the same thing. WHY don't you like the changes? WHAT would you like changed? HOW would you change it? These are the questions feedback seeks to answer, and this and many other comments have failed to even attempt to spark discussion on it. Then you call me toxic when I say that THIS isn't what a FEEDBACK forum is for.

[DSpite]

Enemies pass Level 50 (old system's Lv150) are the ones who isn't balanced for (not counting raids)

T4 past 30 mins is 40-ish

 

Nothing above our own MAXIMUM levels is really "balanced for". The fact is that they are a number that is higher then the maximum level of Tenno's wearing a Warframe.

 

If the word "level" does not mean something, there is no point using it.

[TheBrsrkr]

You must be blind because I already gave detailed feedback earlier.

 

detailed feedback earlier.

 

 earlier.

 

What changed?

[Moghul]

After a full day of playtesting, it is a sidegrade with a slight downgrade.

 

Bare with me...

 

1)

Her DoT mechanics are interesting but they're slow and with how Warframe is a clutch action kind of game, that's a big problem.

Her abilities have been synergized but in the worst possible way. Instead of having good abilities doing interesting things to the enemy (like say, some cc interaction), they combine to just do more damage.

She got an energy buff but her new playstyle uses way too much energy so it's a bandaid.

Her Miasma has been straight up nerfed unless you create the correct environment which may not be possible if you're out of energy, your weapons aren't modded right or you don't have the time.

Her builds are now also rainbow mode which is bad because we don't have good corrupted mods to make that work.

 

2)

She has moved from a pure exterminate frame to a survival non-cc frame (say like, zephyr). Her new mechanics focus around Molt and its augment mod Regenerative Molt rather than Miasma.

I feel like right now you're supposed to walk around farting Molts, putting spores on it and punishing enemies who get distracted with your weapon rather than your ultimate.

 

As for Miasma, I would suggest building for duration and using it as CC for that short stun and taking advantage of the DoT with a radiation and viral status weapon.

 

Up to now, in the first part I have explained why she's no longer a nuke frame and explained in the second part why she's more of a survival/MD/def frame.

 

3)

So, why do I think she was slightly downgraded? The nerf to her health is IMHO completely unnecessary and right now even with her decently large energy pool, she's too energy hungry and demands over 150 efficiency.

 

Is she powerful? Not by herself.

Is she viable? Yes.

Is she fun? Depends on your playstyle.

[Lynxh]

molt is bugged instead of absorbing maisma damage to deal when it gets killed it insta dies when you hit it with maisma

 

It's not suppose to absorb Miasma, Molt absorbs damage done to IT to power MIasma when triggerd in range. Molt functions as a battery FOR miasma, not the other way around. So yes, Molt explodes when you cast Miasma within range.