Long Saryn Build Analysis Comparing Old And New Miasma - Lots Of Math

[-ODIN-Charizard_Prime]

Are we going to forget the fact that when we Miasma we want the enemies to affected by Viral status anyways? With the way viral works it halves the afflicted unit's Health and when viral duration ends they're left with their current HP even when their Max goes to normal?

Doesn't this mean that in reality Miasma does x4 damage with just viral proportionate to their maximum health?

PS: Viral increases the damage of Miasma by 100%.

350 per tick, 4 ticks = 1400 total damage.

With Viral: 700 per tick, 4 ticks = 2800 total damage.

In relation to HP:

Assume no damage mitigated through armor or flesh makeup.

A Hypothetical Enemy has 10000 HP

Miasma alone does 1400 (14% of the enemy's health)

With Toxin Status:

Miasma does 2800 (28% of the enemy's health)

Viral:

Miasma does 2800 (28% of the of an HP total of 10k)

BUT. Viral reduces their Max HP to half, new max HP becomes 5000.

Miasma now deals 2800 of 5000 HP (56% of the enemy's health). When viral duration runs out health remaining would be 2200 of 10000 (22% remaining health). So with Viral, miasma does x4 damage proportionately to the targets health and around x5.56 damage relative to the remaining health at original max HP value.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Gadriel08

[GallyYum]

If you're only looking at Miasma's damage then you are forgeting the damage spore does and the viral hp reduction effect.  Her damage is great still, but it just requires a bit more setup to get there.  The only issues are the energy costs and her survivability when using Toxic Slash.  Damage is fine even in the high levels.

[Hammahness808]

Saryn needs something more than just direct damage to make Miasma useful.

[RHuckebein]

If you're only looking at Miasma's damage then you are forgeting the damage spore does and the viral hp reduction effect.  Her damage is great still, but it just requires a bit more setup to get there.  The only issues are the energy costs and her survivability when using Toxic Slash.  Damage is fine even in the high levels.

 

Actually that math is counting the viral HP reduction (as an effective doubling) for post-17.10 saryn and NOT counting it for pre-17.10 saryn even though pre-17.10 saryn could spread viral around too.  It's being generous with viral to new saryn.

[-ODIN-Charizard_Prime]

Actually that math is counting the viral HP reduction (as an effective doubling) for post-17.10 saryn and NOT counting it for pre-17.10 saryn even though pre-17.10 saryn could spread viral around too. It's being generous with viral to new saryn.

Pretty sure he just calculated the fact that viral doubles Miasma's damage and not that it halves their HP.

PS: Nvm I see where he put it, but the damage is 100% increase in proportion to the maximum health but remaining health would be different...

Edited November 6, 2015 by Gadriel08

[-dicht.Amducias-]

I think you failed to take into concern that the old miasma did not only always have 4 tics on this low duration then, no the damage was divided by the duration (0.12) which means u did about 13k damage in a max range build...

[hukurokuju5]

factoring in viral status' 50% hp reduction is only relevant for 1 shot calculations

[Vardog]

The problem with Saryn never was her Miasma, I wish people stopped being hung up on this one skill. The reason why she's being considered a low/mid tier Frame is because her kit does not work well in end game situations and she doesn't bring anything of significant value in party play, except for her Viral proc but we had that before the rework and nobody wanted Saryn in a party anyway.

 

For a Frame that's supposed to be at least partially engaged in Melee combat Saryn does not have the tools to survive such encounters at a high level, her Health/Armor values are laughable compared to other Melee oriented Frames such as Valkyr, Rhino, Atlas, Chroma etc and she does not have any damage nor CC mitigation. In terms on Melee, she's a suicidal Frame with no protection.

Molt, due to being a flat Health/Shield-based ability is not a reliable way of survival, at higher levels it gets destroyed in less than a second leaving Saryn completely open to damage. In short, Saryn lacks the stats and/or the Skillset to be a successful Melee Frame.

 

Aside from an insignificant, short range stun from her Miasma, Saryn doesn't have any form of CC, the only way she can contribute in party play is by spamming her first ability and spreading those Viral procs but as I said earlier that was also the case before her rework and nobody wanted her in a party anyway. Why you would you bring a Saryn when you can bring a Nova that does the same thing with her Ultimate plus much more. Nova's M.Prime does essentially the same thing as a Viral proc since it doubles the damage taken by the enemies AND it slows them down significantly AND it turns them into living bombs. Saryn's only party contribution is a slow spreading, mid range Viral proc that needs extra prep time to work meanwhile all Nova has to do is press 4. There's absolutely no reason to consider Saryn when composing a high level party, she brings nothing of significant value to the table, just as before the rework.

 

Because of Saryn's lack of CC and Utility all she's left with, at high level gameplay, is her flat, unscaling damage which as we all know falls off pretty quickly and Saryn is reduced to using her weapons as means of Survival.

 

She's exactly at the same spot she was before the rework, none of her problems were adressed. She's still a squishy (even more with the nerf the HP), semi-melee Frame with flat damage-based Abilities and no significant CC/Utility to contribute in a party setup.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Vardog

[Obus]

I applaud OP, myself thought about that. A bit surprised that so many people can't do a simple math. It's not rocket sience or quantum physics.

More than once i saw funny (fraudent) calculations for new Miasma: "viral procs half HP, so we can count that as x4 damage". With both viral and toxic procs take x6 damage multiplier for equalization and now we got a big shiny numbers. How someone can doubt? I have one negligible question: is it double damage under viral proc exclusive for new Miasma? Not for any damage from ability or weapon, including old Miasma? Why do I think only +100% damage exclusive for new Miasma if viral proc on? Or you just discovered the wonderful world of viral damage?

For me, Saryn now in state close to Ember before last rework. You need so many stats/mods and have not enough space. But even worse: Ember has only one prerequisite for damage boost with build-in CC. And Ember was in bad shape more than year.

[Empiren]

Nova's M.Prime does essentially the same thing as a Viral proc since it doubles the damage taken by the enemies 

Who told you this?

Viral halves the red-bar. The "health" bar. It doesn't halve the Blue or Yellow bar.(shields/"armor").

 

You have to realize that the "health" is generally a lot less than the total  damage to take down an enemy.

 

:/ Really surprised you had a good post but don't understand that.

 

 

M.Prime doubles the damage take for 100% of the enemy's defense, it's a LOT better than a single viral proc lol.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Empiren

[Empiren]

There are some heavy downsides we skipped, however. We spend 75% more energy and 2 extra casts to fulfill the conditions of this analysis, for one. New miasma no longer corrosive procs. We can meet parity, but only with viral and toxin procs. However, remember from earlier when we talked about molt having only 10m explosion range? A huge chunk of our range isn't going to be properly toxin procced, so we're going to go down to 2/3rds of our previously calculated damage if we only have viral. And, of course, this damage is spread out over time and you can't followup Miasma with Miasma cause it refreshes instead of stacking. Further, much of this was prefaced on assuming viral procs were actually a novel advantage of the new saryn, when anyone, including old saryn, can have mass AoE viral procs on demand with torid or ignis or another AoE proc weapon. If you take away the viral proc advantage, we're at a severe damage disadvantage - half damage! If you just naked miasma, you're doing a about a sixth of your old damage. If you just molt miasma, you're at about 1/3 the old miasma damage (since you lost the doubling power of viral).

If you always perfectly only cast new Miasma when everything is perfectly toxined and viraled, you're almost dead even with old Miasma. If you cast Miasma under ANYTHING OTHER THAN IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES, you're facing a severe nerf. This is not synergy. This is dependency.

 

Yeah.....this part is kind of what I was afraid of.

[Vardog]

Who told you this?

Viral halves the red-bar. The "health" bar. It doesn't halve the Blue or Yellow bar.(shields/"armor").

 

You have to realize that the "health" is generally a lot less than the total  damage to take down an enemy.

 

:/ Really surprised you had a good post but don't understand that.

 

 

M.Prime doubles the damage take for 100% of the enemy's defense, it's a LOT better than a single viral proc lol.

 That's why I used the word 'essentially' and not 'exactly'. Besides, Armor and Shields require specific damage types to deal with so you're not always going to be taking full advantage of that 100% damage increase meanwhile a 50% reduction to Health is always a 50% reduction to Health, regardless of your layout so in the end it kind of balances itself out when comparing Viral to M.Primes x2 damage multiplier.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Vardog

[Empiren]

Besides, Armor and Shields require specific damage types to deal with so you're not always going to be taking full advantage of that 100% damage

Wo wo wo, yeah, you will.

 

Nova prime is double the damage taken, regardless of how much damage you do to the armor originally you will do double that.

 

I could say the same thing to health regarding viral. "Oh you are doing puncture so it doesn't do as much".

 

M.Prime outclasses a viral proc by miles in effective use.

[Empiren]

Bump cus math is fun.

[Brynslustafir]

My biggest problem with the Saryn rework is all the setup that is required to make Miasma effective. Other AOE frames don't need to go through a long setup process to make their ults effective. After seeing the results of the Frost and Excal reworks I had hopes that this rework would actually improve Saryn, but it the end it just made here more difficult to mod and less enjoyable to play. I just hope Volt doesn't get the short end of the stick like Saryn did.

The pre-rework issue with Saryn was that only here Ult was worth using, and maximizing it meant sacrificing every other ability.

But now that you need to use every single ability to make her ult any good, you can't really maximize anything anymore. I'm afraid to use any corrupted mods because putting any value below 100% will make her ult weaker in some way. 

I suggest giving Miasma a base range and strength buff and a reduction to its energy cost to compensate for its over-reliance on every other ability. It should at least be somewhat useful on its own.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by Plasmaface

[RealPandemonium]

People keep pointing to this thread as the triumph of math over the rework, but the entire essence of the thread is basically that the slot efficiency nerf caused by requiring range mods killed the OP's build of choice, or made it somewhat worse since he can't fit all the mods while also maximizing Miasma.  He also inflates the effort and energy investment required to prime enemies for max Miasma damage, which means casting 1 and 2 or 3 one time in the worst case.  In the best case, you brought an Ignis and just have to press 1 one time to keep an entire room affected by both procs indefinitely.   Otherwise, he concedes that Miasma is hardly nerfed at all if you can keep it synergized effectively.  OP also mentions Corrosive procs on old Miasma that never actually existed, which brings his credibility into question.  People rally behind this post because it looks ambitious, has math, and acknowledges its opponents, but in the end what it offers is far from a complete picture of what the changes mean on the whole.  It's more of a case study on the OP's experience than anything else.  

 

Another disappointing thing is that many of the detractors of this thread are also uninformed.  I saw many misconceptions just skimming over the replies.  I think what DE really needs to do is to send us to Warframe School (the wiki.)  

[GhostLacuna]

So real how do you balance as frame without dumpstats?

 

What do you remove without sacrifice how effective your frame is?

 

All other frames can completely dump one stat and focus on the other 3 but not saryn.

 

Also i done the math against my old build. Net miasma damage lost was around 2500 depending on how i wish to build the new saryn.

 

Now in any real situation aka not a perfect setup like in the Simulacrum. Viral procs on enemies will out range both your toxin lash as well as your miasma by far.

 

the spread range on spore alone is larger then the total radius on Miasma. No matter how high your range is modded for. Even at maximum possible range a single spore can spread 37.6 meters and you got 3. Miasma only reach 35.25 meters.

 

You will never hit all enemies that have viral procs from spore with toxic lash nor will your miasma has enough range to cover them all.

 

As such you will always have targets outside of your range that at most has viral procs on them. But those procs wont last forever so its fully possible that the viral procs have stopped on more distant targets before you can kill the ones you are engaging in combat.

 

Not to mention that if you play in a group many targets are killed before you can reach them and use toxic lash anyway.

 

weapons are far more effective at spreading toxin.

 

As far as knowledge go why have you never brought up the fact that venom was 6 spores and spore only is 3? Or was that also a mathematical buff in your eyes?

 

As for how to use her as a effective frame, well quite frankly you can deal far more damage by just ignoring miasma and focusing on spreading viral and toxin procs over the whole map.Its also faster to combo weapons with spore then it is to use miasma.

 

Before she was a low tier nuke frame, now she is still a low tier nuke frame. It just starts slower.

[RealPandemonium]

snip

Few frames can totally dump one stat with little consequence.  Those that can (Loki, Nova, and Mesa come to mind) tend to be overpowered, partially because of that.  Warframe mods were designed with trade-offs in mind. Whether or not that design actually succeeds is debatable, but trade-offs enforcing different styles of play being possible with different builds (vs one BEST BUILD that does everything better than everything else or makes everything else not matter) is definitely a good thing.  Warframe is about variety and choice.  It's not a hard game, no matter how much people people try to pretend that infinite content matters.  Variety and engaging gameplay are the heart of this game, not factory farming and trivializing gameplay.  

 

Viral (and Toxin if you added one in) procs usually spread all the way out and then bounce back to the source, and worst case scenario you spend a pittance of energy to restart the proc chain.  Implying dependence on Toxic Lash is fallacious since you can also use Molt or a Toxin/Gas status weapon (never mind Ignis, lol.) Your weapon needn't apply the Toxin in AOE, as long as it can pop spores, you're good.

 

Venom had more spores but now you can pop them more reliably with most weapons, the Viral proc is guaranteed on every pop, and Toxin procs also spread with each proc, which can contribute significant damage on its own.  If you compare the two powers side by side, there's a very clear victor overall.

 

Miasma was bar none the strongest radial nuke in the game before.  It still is now, as long as you fulfill the conditions to maximize its damage.  I think that's a very fair trade-off, to say nothing of all the other perks you get alongside that in the new Saryn.  (I'm still baffled how people aren't hype about perma Viral proc on everything in the room.)

Edited November 11, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Aquasurge]

My biggest problem with the Saryn rework is all the setup that is required to make Miasma effective. Other AOE frames don't need to go through a long setup process to make their ults effective. After seeing the results of the Frost and Excal reworks I had hopes that this rework would actually improve Saryn, but it the end it just made here more difficult to mod and less enjoyable to play. I just hope Volt doesn't get the short end of the stick like Saryn did.

The pre-rework issue with Saryn was that only here Ult was worth using, and maximizing it meant sacrificing every other ability.

But now that you need to use every single ability to make her ult any good, you can't really maximize anything anymore. I'm afraid to use any corrupted mods because putting any value below 100% will make her ult weaker in some way. 

I suggest giving Miasma a base range and strength buff and a reduction to its energy cost to compensate for its over-reliance on every other ability. It should at least be somewhat useful on its own.  

this is the problem of the rework - corrupted mod builds are bad on saryn as she is reliant on all four stats of maximization.

[GhostLacuna]

I could lists builds for nearly all frames and their various dump stats Real ash for example has 2 depending on build. Duration or range can be dumped on him without hassle. 

 

nova can use both duration and negative duration creating 2 builds directly from just one stat.  And due to how duration works with her abilities it does not cripple her in anyway to do so. 

 

increase any of saryns stats above 150% and you cripple at a minimum on of her other stats. 

 

Saryns abilities make use of duration, efficiency, range and power just by how the powers are designed. 

 

Novas m prime make no use of range mods what so ever the ability itself is designed to work completely independent of range mods. 

 

This can be said of many other frames abilities. They are not dependent on all stats. Saryns abilities however are dependent on all 4 stats. 

 

That alone weaken her as a frame since she is so inflexible. 

 

Viral spread far yes. toxin however from just toxic lash dont spread nearly as far and is dependent on how close other mobs are. We both agree weapons with just toxin or gas is far more effective at spreading the toxin proc around then toxic lash is. 

 

The point about venom was that DE cut the amount of spores in half and didnt even mention why in the patch notes. Now since it spread more reliably and has a guaranteed viral proc its most likely due to those factors but we will most likely never know. 

 

Spore is the better ability that is easy to see. 

 

Miasma was the strongest nuke up to around level 50 enemies then i used it to stun. along side casting venom to soften them up. But frankly i mainly used her for ext missions, capture etc and alerts to speed run them. 

 

So nothing really changed...

 

except that i use her less now for those missions.

 

ext well i have ember or mag depending on targets

 

capture volt or zephyr.

 

alerts well why not take valkyr, rhino, loki or excalibur they all do it faster, safer and with less energy.

 

Saryn is not bad she just lack a niche at the moment. If DE wants her to be a DoT based frame they could promote that niche further by extending base skill duration and range. 

 

If they truly want her to be a melee frame they can make further tweaks to her durability by reverting the health drop and make toxic lashs damage reduction work as Mesas shatter shield. Those changes alone would maker her a far more effective melee frame. 

 

If they want her to be a support frame they could just give spore a slow % per spore and make miasma a lingering gas cloud that stagger enemies within it for its duration. For her to be an excellent CC frame that would be great in a group setting. 

 

There are plenty of time left to improve saryn further. 

 

As to why people are not hyped about the very strong viral proc everywhere saryn. I think that has to do with expectation on what the frame should do and the fact that they dont get a instant effect. 

 

Now personally i dont care if it takes longer to kill i have played plenty of DoT characters over the years and i enjoy playing characters that have that role. 

 

I have also played games enough to have seen reworks in other games where not even the name of the character remained when they where done. But then again very few characters in any game would stay the same over a 8 year period. 

 

But that also means that i am in no hurry for this saryn rework.  I can wait and see how it ends up. 

 

I am however annoyed that it took me so long to find a new build that works for me i am usually faster then this to adapt. 

 

Still has to browse eye cancer trading chat to find someone selling primed continuity since i missed it last time baro had it for sale. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by GhostLacuna

[RealPandemonium]

Viral spread far yes. toxin however from just toxic lash dont spread nearly as far and is dependent on how close other mobs are. We both agree weapons with just toxin or gas is far more effective at spreading the toxin proc around then toxic lash is. 

When a spore pops it spreads any Toxin proc that affected the host.  Toxic Lash's proc will spread as far as the Viral procs will.  

 

 

ext well i have ember or mag depending on targets

 

capture volt or zephyr.

 

alerts well why not take valkyr, rhino, loki or excalibur they all do it faster, safer and with less energy.

 

Saryn is not bad she just lack a niche at the moment. If DE wants her to be a DoT based frame they could promote that niche further by extending base skill duration and range. 

 

 

I'm tired of people (not necessarily you) basically claiming that each frame can only be useful for cheesing or automating specific aspects of gameplay.  If farming is the only thing that matters, then what's the point?  What are you even farming for besides more farming?  I play all the frames at some point or other because I like variety and I like exploring the potential of various gameplay mechanics.  If you just try to make the game as easy as possible you're gonna get bored fast.  

 

I'm glad that you found a way to adjust, though.  Let's hope DE knocks us down a peg with Damage 3.0 and makes those Viral procs more appreciated (and let's hope that armor scaling dies a brutal death as well.)

Edited November 11, 2015 by RealPandemonium