Euthyphro's Dilemma

[Institute-Marksman]

I don't intend to spread hatred or start it, and I hope that the comments can remain civilized and that we can discuss this like decent human beings:

Why is murder wrong? Does God say murder is wrong, because it's wrong? Or is it wrong, because God says it's wrong?

In other words, this is the Dilemma:

If murder is wrong whether or not God says it's wrong, then knowing morality doesn't require God.

But if murder is wrong just because God says it's wrong, then morality is based off of personal judgment(arbitrary), because your belief in God is a personal belief, and not everyone believes what God says. But then we end up again on the first sentence: 

If murder is wrong whether or not God says it's wrong, then knowing morality doesn't require God.

I've been very interested in revelations like this lately, and would love to hear what this community has to say about it, other then TL;DR or 'inb4lock'. If you wish to discuss this, please do that below, but I urge you to keep it civilized AND ACCORDING TO THE FORUM RULES.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Institute-Marksman

[RafaelFuchs]

From a PoV of someone who believes that either a god doesn't exist, abandoned us or is evil due to causing obvious suffering to its creations: 

 

Murder is wrong because you're taking someone's possible only chance to experience life. We don't have any clue what happens after death no matter how much faith you have in your believes. There will always be that shred of doubt in the back of your mind. It's interesting how much effort some people put forth to console themselves that death isn't just the end spite having no substantial proof of another existence. 

 

So, no. Morality doesn't require a god in my opinion.

Edited November 13, 2015 by RafaelFuchs

[Artekkor]

From a PoV of someone who believes that either a god doesn't exist, abandoned us or is evil due to causing obvious suffering to its creations:

Murder is wrong because you're taking someone's possible only chance to experience life. We don't have any clue what happens after death no matter how much faith you have in your believes. There will always be that shred of doubt in the back of your mind. It's interesting how much effort some people put forth to console themselves that death isn't just the end spite having no substantial proof of another existence.

So, no. Morality doesn't require a god in my opinion.

This.

I see religion and god as early ways for humanity to say what's good and what's wrong and make sure that people will actually avoid bad things and do good things.

However, it's 21st century. We are very inteligent at this point. We are rational creatures that can use logic and act based on this alone.

Religion is a Plan B for those who can't deal with the world this way, or those who just can't accept the concept of absolutely pointles existence with no great goal to it. I understand and do not judge. You want to believe in god - i'm fine with it, just don't bring it to conversations with me without a good reason, i might get slightly upset.

At least that's how i see it...

I think i went a little bit off-topic there (kek) but here is some more: murder is wrong as long as it unjustified by rational reasons. And even if it is: it still stays a bad thing in it's concept of permanently ending someone's existence, but sometimes it's the most rational and/or effective thing to do.

[Vyrn]

I feel like any answer I give might be slightly biased (or at least come across that way) because I happen to be religious. Here goes, though.

I feel murder is wrong for far more than simply "because God said so." Even before I had a trace of religious thought or belief in my mind, it was not something I can say I would ever consider. Granted, I was pretty young, but hey, details.

Of course, that begs the question, "What if that is simply because society tells us murder is wrong?" Our society's morals have been influenced (directly or indirectly) by religion in the past, after all. I don't think we can ever escape that.

Anyways. As has been stated already, taking away someone's only chance to experience this thing called life is just not right, at least in my eyes. I see the good in life, and I think that far outweighs the bad. To deny another being the right to life would be the most heinous thing I can do. If I take someone's life, I am also, in a way, playing God. I assume a role not given me, and I act in and through my own fallible emotions, effecting my own imperfect, biased judgment. It's also not just the direct victim who would suffer. I would also be hurting the people around them, and I would even (potentially) be harming myself emotionally and/or psychologically in the process. There are special cases where few (or none) of those would apply, sure, but I'm being general.

I'd like to think I would feel the same way even with absolutely no external influence of any kind. Will I ever truly know? No. That said, morals in general (including this idea that murder is wrong) did have to spring up at some point, and there must have been some substance to them if they lasted throughout the ages (with high and low points, of course). That can at least give some credence to morality. Whether that was through divine intervention, a shared feeling among man, or something else is an argued subject, but I'd say it can exist (and often stayed alive) apart from religious thought or ideology.

tl;dr No, I do not believe you need God or gods to have morals or a strong sense of morality.

I will say, however, that I can only speak from the view of someone who sees a reason to live. If my view on life were far darker and marred, it might appear a disservice to allow someone to live. In that case, "murder" might not be a bad thing at all, and it might even be seen as the savior. This might be a little off topic, but it's a sad truth.

Edit: Wow, I type a lot when I'm tired. Hopefully it at least makes sense.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Vyrnaazus

[RafaelFuchs]

Of course, that begs the question, "What if that is simply because society tells us murder is wrong?" Our society's morals have been influenced (directly or indirectly) by religion in the past, after all. I don't think we can ever escape that.

 

I will say, however, that I can only speak from the view of someone who sees a reason to live. If my view on life were far darker and marred, it might appear a disservice to allow someone to live. In that case, "murder" might not be a bad thing at all, and it might even be seen as the savior. This might be a little off topic, but it's a sad truth.

I personally don't think moralities are only based off society, but then again I'm sure my view on that is skewed. 

 

Onto the topic of 'darkened' outlooks on life, that begs a great question. My experiance with said mindsets are extremely limited and that would be an interesting addition to the topic. 

Edited November 13, 2015 by RafaelFuchs

[Institute-Marksman]

I feel like any answer I give might be slightly biased (or at least come across that way) because I happen to be religious. Here goes, though.

I feel murder is wrong for far more than simply "because God said so." Even before I had a trace of religious thought or belief in my mind, it was not something I can say I would ever consider. Granted, I was pretty young, but hey, details.

Of course, that begs the question, "What if that is simply because society tells us murder is wrong?" Our society's morals have been influenced (directly or indirectly) by religion in the past, after all. I don't think we can ever escape that.

Anyways. As has been stated already, taking away someone's only chance to experience this thing called life is just not right, at least in my eyes. I see the good in life, and I think that far outweighs the bad. To deny another being the right to life would be the most heinous thing I can do. If I take someone's life, I am also, in a way, playing God. I assume a role not given me, and I act in and through my own fallible emotions, effecting my own imperfect, biased judgment. It's also not just the direct victim who would suffer. I would also be hurting the people around them, and I would even (potentially) be harming myself emotionally and/or psychologically in the process. There are special cases where few (or none) of those would apply, sure, but I'm being general.

I'd like to think I would feel the same way even with absolutely no external influence of any kind. Will I ever truly know? No. That said, morals in general (including this idea that murder is wrong) did have to spring up at some point, and there must have been some substance to them if they lasted throughout the ages (with high and low points, of course). That can at least give some credence to morality. Whether that was through divine intervention, a shared feeling among man, or something else is an argued subject, but I'd say it can exist (and often stayed alive) apart from religious thought or ideology.

tl;dr No, I do not believe you need God or gods to have morals or a strong sense of morality.

I will say, however, that I can only speak from the view of someone who sees a reason to live. If my view on life were far darker and marred, it might appear a disservice to allow someone to live. In that case, "murder" might not be a bad thing at all, and it might even be seen as the savior. This might be a little off topic, but it's a sad truth.

Edit: Wow, I type a lot when I'm tired. Hopefully it at least makes sense.

I appreciate your comment and your views, but "if murder is right or wrong" was never the subject of this dilemma. Off-topic, indeed. Okay, so according to you, you don't need God to show you morals. But God killed so much people. Is He not all good, or does He not consider murder a bad thing? There is no sin in Heaven, yet God has clearly committed murder (which is a sin), but there is no sin in Heaven?

I HAVE SO MUCH QUESTIONS!!!

[izzatuw]

This.

I see religion and god as early ways for humanity to say what's good and what's wrong and make sure that people will actually avoid bad things and do good things.

However, it's 21st century. We are very inteligent at this point. We are rational creatures that can use logic and act based on this alone.

Religion is a Plan B for those who can't deal with the world this way, or those who just can't accept the concept of absolutely pointles existence with no great goal to it. I understand and do not judge. You want to believe in god - i'm fine with it, just don't bring it to conversations with me without a good reason, i might get slightly upset.

At least that's how i see it...

I think i went a little bit off-topic there (kek) but here is some more: murder is wrong as long as it unjustified by rational reasons. And even if it is: it still stays a bad thing in it's concept of permanently ending someone's existence, but sometimes it's the most rational and/or effective thing to do.

You're assuming we only gained free will in the 21st century

[izzatuw]

I appreciate your comment and your views, but "if murder is right or wrong" was never the subject of this dilemma. Off-topic, indeed. Okay, so according to you, you don't need God to show you morals. But God killed so much people. Is He not all good, or does He not consider murder a bad thing? There is no sin in Heaven, yet God has clearly committed murder (which is a sin), but there is no sin in Heaven?

I HAVE SO MUCH QUESTIONS!!!

Arguably, in Muslim beliefs our God has killed couple of cultures due to their acts. Defiling him, ignoring him and trying to stand above Him.

If you're talking about now, why do people die? It's because your life is a test, there will be ups and downs. Like why did God let this person die? It's to see how you will react in that situation, if everything was great and happy it wouldn't be a test, there would be no Heaven or Hell.

It's not murder that's bad, it is the motive. Did this guy murder a psychotic murderer that had a tally of 50 people? Than no it's not bad, he did "evil" to clear of greater evil. Did this kid murder this kid because he just wanted more game time? Than no, pretty idiotic and quite a waste of life.

In the religion they don't truly say murder is bad, going outside of Muslim is eligible for execution.

[Institute-Marksman]

Arguably, in Muslim beliefs our God has killed couple of cultures due to their acts. Defiling him, ignoring him and trying to stand above Him.

If you're talking about now, why do people die? It's because your life is a test, there will be ups and downs. Like why did God let this person die? It's to see how you will react in that situation, if everything was great and happy it wouldn't be a test, there would be no Heaven or Hell.

It's not murder that's bad, it is the motive. Did this guy murder a psychotic murderer that had a tally of 50 people? Than no it's not bad, he did "evil" to clear of greater evil. Did this kid murder this kid because he just wanted more game time? Than no, pretty idiotic and quite a waste of life.

In the religion they don't truly say murder is bad, going outside of Muslim is eligible for execution.

This just shows how arbitrary morality is.

[izzatuw]

This just shows how arbitrary morality is.

You don't really need god or morality to know that plain murder's bad.

[dacond3]

You don't really need god or morality to know that plain murder's bad.

But if there was someone to grow under a rock and then out into the "wild concrete jungles"

 

THey would mostlikely murder a few times...

[RafaelFuchs]

Arguably, in Muslim beliefs our God has killed couple of cultures due to their acts. Defiling him, ignoring him and trying to stand above Him.

If you're talking about now, why do people die? It's because your life is a test, there will be ups and downs. Like why did God let this person die? It's to see how you will react in that situation, if everything was great and happy it wouldn't be a test, there would be no Heaven or Hell.

It's not murder that's bad, it is the motive. Did this guy murder a psychotic murderer that had a tally of 50 people? Than no it's not bad, he did "evil" to clear of greater evil. Did this kid murder this kid because he just wanted more game time? Than no, pretty idiotic and quite a waste of life.

In the religion they don't truly say murder is bad, going outside of Muslim is eligible for execution.

My question though is: How does one stand above a god? Metaphorically speaking obviously, but a god is almighty and powerful. Humans are not. Why would a god care if someone is trying to do such an act? That's an unobtainable goal in almost any regard. It seems like a squabble that they should be above. 

 

I agree that motive is important, but the goal rarely justifies the means of murder. 

 

That is honestly why I tend to be very distrusting of religions. These ridiculous rules and such are just so strange to me. Like wearing fabrics made of more than one material, for example. Just why? I also could never understand why such a powerful being would demand death upon non-believers. If life is the test, why did it demand life to be prematurely ended? That seems so unreasonable to not let them finish it. If the god's word is truly the right way to exist, wouldn't that become evident as they aged?  

 

This just shows how arbitrary morality is.

In the large scale, it could be arbitrary, but it seems to have more direction than just random choices due to how oddly specific cases can get. We seem to keep a direction that the path continues to slowly narrow. Look to the past for example, we've done a lot of things that we now deem awful. I personally don't see an end to our changes either. We learn from our mistakes... eventually. 

Edited November 13, 2015 by RafaelFuchs

[izzatuw]

My question though is: How does one stand above a god? Metaphorically speaking obviously, but a god is almighty and powerful. Humans are not. Why would a god care if someone is trying to do such an act? That's an unobtainable goal in almost any regard. It seems like a squabble that they should be above.

I agree that motive is important, but the goal rarely justifies the means of murder.

That is honestly why I tend to be very distrusting of religions. These ridiculous rules and such are just so strange to me. Like wearing fabrics made of more than one material, for example. Just why? I also could never understand why such a powerful being would demand death upon non-believers. If life is the test, why did it demand life to be prematurely ended? That seems so unreasonable to not let them finish it. If the god's word is truly the right way to exist, wouldn't that become evident as they aged?

In the large scale, it could be arbitrary, but it seems to have more direction than just random choices due to how oddly specific cases can get. We seem to keep a direction that the path continues to slowly narrow. Look to the past for example, we've done a lot of things that we now deem awful. I personally don't see an end to our changes either. We learn from our mistakes... eventually.

Similar to how people try to stand someone above their rank, they don't realize how weak they are till they face it for themselves.

In Muslim beliefs afaik they don't demand death to non believers. They do try to persuade them into the religion though. Don't think the IS represent Muslim in any form. If they did Malaysia would be a very dangerous country.

But if there was someone to grow under a rock and then out into the "wild concrete jungles"

THey would mostlikely murder a few times...

Because that person for whatever reason would not even know what religion is, much less morality.

[Artekkor]

You're assuming we only gained free will in the 21st century

Ofc i do. Religion was pretty much mandatory in the past, idea of god was pretty much forced onto the kids from early age by their parents. If you did not believed in god or believed in a different one - you are pretty much screwd because nobody would ever forgive you that.

History almost creates an impression that tolerance wasnt invented until recent centuriers and with tolerance brought up those who were skeptical finally managed to come out without being afraid of being burned alive for so called heresy.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Artek94

[Artekkor]

But if there was someone to grow under a rock and then out into the "wild concrete jungles"

THey would mostlikely murder a few times...

If i understand right you're pretty much refering to Mowgly syndrom.

Simple: in this case the subject it pretty much an animal.

Animals don't have morality. At all. They kill not because they want to, but because they have to. Survival is number 1 priority, there is nothing else to it. Predators kill their prey to eat, prey kills predator in self-defence, some species kill before finding out if you're predator or not because this is the only way to be sure.

Very few animals kill for fun or without any good reason and, ironically, those are often the smart ones like dogs or monkeys.

Edit: probably should've refer to animals as wild animals since human, technicaly, is an animal too.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Artek94

[RafaelFuchs]

Ofc i do. Religion was pretty much mandatory in the past, idea of god was pretty much forced onto the kids from early age by their parents. If you did not believed in god or believed in a different one - you are pretty much screwd because nobody would ever forgive you that.

History almost creates an impression that tolerance wasnt invented until recent centuriers amd with tolerance those who was skeptical finally managed to come out without being burned for heresy.

That, however, just isn't true. History has some interesting rises and falls in religions and beliefs. It's either greek, roman or both that were quite accepting of non-religion and other things such as homosexuality. However, I'm not saying they were all love and hugs. Even in our current time, athiests are shunned by a very large percent of the population. They're even killed in others. We're getting better, but it's still not good. 

 

I just looked it up and greeks were the larger proponents to this. They even had a military division just for homosexuals. They thought that the bonds between tribes weren't strong enough, but bonds between lovers were near unbreakable. 

Edited November 13, 2015 by RafaelFuchs

[izzatuw]

That, however, just isn't true. History has some interesting rises and falls in religions and beliefs. It's either greek, roman or both that were quite accepting of non-religion and other things such as homosexuality. However, I'm not saying they were all love and hugs. Even in our current time, athiests are shunned by a very large percent of the population. They're even killed in others. We're getting better, but it's still not good.

True enough.

Religion still plays a big part in some people's lives. In most 3rd world parts of Earth there are still people that cling onto religion since they need something to believe in.

[Artekkor]

That, however, just isn't true. History has some interesting rises and falls in religions and beliefs. It's either greek, roman or both that were quite accepting of non-religion and other things such as homosexuality. However, I'm not saying they were all love and hugs. Even in our current time, athiests are shunned by a very large percent of the population. They're even killed in others. We're getting better, but it's still not good.

Good to know it wasn't that bad all the time. But still: religion was more important in the past than it is now. Goverment often was under control of Church, or at least under great influence. These days religion is more of an optional thing and i prefer it that way.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Artek94

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

From a PoV of someone who believes that either a god doesn't exist, abandoned us or is evil due to causing obvious suffering to its creations: This is true most of the time but God makes it much easier...

Murder is wrong because you're taking someone's possible only chance to experience life. We don't have any clue what happens after death no matter how much faith you have in your believes. There will always be that shred of doubt in the back of your mind. It's interesting how much effort some people put forth to console themselves that death isn't just the end spite having no substantial proof of another existence.

So, no. Morality doesn't require a god in my opinion.

[Ibro156]

In Islam we're tough that life is a test. Our God is the teacher, while we are the students. We will have to live our lives to see if we're worthy or not. We will not know till judgement day. For the ISIS situation, it looks like they're failing as they ignoring all major rules for war. The rules are:

- Don't kill injured Soldiers. In fact care and look after them.

- Do not conquare lands

- Do not kill or harm civilians

- Do not force Islam.on those who don't want to accept it. It must be truly believed in your heart.

- Only kill in self defence.

- Do not kill unarmed Soldiers.

- Only start war if you have been attacked

- If you are given a chance to have peace, take it.

- Abide by the land of the law.

The rules changes a bit when it comes to taking vengeance. We are allowed to kill those who have killed our family or family member, but it said it's better to forgive, then kill. If you do decide to kill the person, no one would judge you. But if you don't, people will consider you good person

I know am bit late, but if I did get something wrong feel free to correct me :P

Edit: I just wanna clean up what Jihadi means. It's mean Inner and Outer balance of life. Outer is balancing you life with work, family and friends. Inner is about being mentaly smart (you must learn) physically healthy (treat your body with respect) and spiratly kind (learn the Quran and be kind to others). That's all really. Also Islam actually agrees with Science and Evolution :3

Edited February 18, 2016 by Ibro156

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

First you need to understand God before you talk about him/it. You all view God kind of as a human being but in most cases he's not...when you pass you'll understand the nature of the universe and what God is, what demons are, what WE are and why God calls us HIS CHILDREN. This world is just a game that we come to to learn things and to become better people. The next world is much better because we get to be "admins" if you will. I may sound insane but I am correct...though everything I say here will probably make you think "This guys crazy he has no idea what he's talking about" but I assure you I am right. For more info look up near death and pre birth experiences you cant trust them all but I know the truth not only from my on "eyes" but from comparing to others and getting the same ideas, visuals and descriptions. And for your answer Both because God is Good...literally.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

So since I'm basically a nihilist, does that mean murder is right?

[Uzpian]

For me, who doesn't really follow religion 100%, murder is neither right or wrong.

[Artekkor]

Was surprised to see this thread again...

Where you people find these dusty things?

[Uzpian]

Was surprised to see this thread again...

Where you people find these dusty things?

Unexpected necromancy always happen in the WF forums.

 

Even I didn't see the damn date.