Now That It's Been Out A While: Lots Of Feedback On The Jordas Verdict Trial

[TGDM]

Original post can be found on Reddit with (probably) better formatting here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/3u3w3n/now_that_its_been_out_a_while_lots_of_feedback_on/

Feedback relevant as of 17.11.1

Sections will be split into stage-specific and mechanic-specific. Bugs and general feedback.

 

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STAGES

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  >>Stage 1:
  
  
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  First spore section: Collision with walls and spores seems a bit off. sometimes it seems to hit it prematurely, sometimes it has to be right up on it. Might have to do with spore mechanics rather than the walls though. See mechanics section.

  
  
  
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  Related to above: Though not necessarily immediately recognized, the mechanics of how this portion of the raid work are somewhat easy to discover. You eventually shoot the buttons and see the spore come out. You eventually see the spore destroys the glowing orange wall mess. You eventually figure out shooting = bad, melee (and some abilities) = faster. Nice and intuitive stuff which you then expand upon.

  
  
  
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  Hallway section: Really straight forward and intuitive design, given that the raid already establishes that shooting yellow buttons to turn green = objective path. Good audio queues as well, though the premature venting bug was annoying to deal with.

  
  
  
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  Second spore section: Seems like there's a host/client disconnect with the mines that come from the wall. They simply do not appear for clients.

  
  
  
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  Farming the Antiserum Injector Fragments was a bad design choice for a variety of reasons. Here they are:

  
  
  • Day 1 Feedback for new content was severely hampered. Initial research costs (in antiserum fragments alone) were absurd (and quickly resolved with a boosting script), but beyond that there was the fact that you had to get the key (rush with premium currency for day 1 responses) only to be met by the realization you cannot progress. Farming aside, you would have to rush with plat again to obtain your antiserum injector. This defeats the point of a "beta" raid to receive feedback. Further demonstrated by the weekend following the initial release of the raid being super buggy with hotfixes that broke way more than they fixed.
    
  • Segregated the player base immediately and created a raid requirement impossible to prove in-game. Injectors were necessary for progression (at least 1 to complete, at least 3 for convenience). You have no way of determining if anyone joining the raid actually has their antiserum injector yet or not.
    
  • While refunding the key spent on the farming phase is nice, it seems as if the chance of rares spawning was taken into consideration. See below on rare container spawning stuff, specifically about the tumor room.
    
  • Creates unnecessary clutter within the raid once you have completed your injector. Those green orbs are nothing but a waste of processing power after you're done. Plus it's super annoying Carrier's Vacuum doesn't grab them for cleaning up the mess.
    
  • Antiserum Injector Fragments should never have been part of the raid. They should have been a quest, a prerequisite to being able to join the raid. The attunement process, if you would. It should have come out around the time when Atlas did to allow players to have it before the raid was available. They should not be clan tech at all and at the very least if they change nothing else it should not be a 24hr craft time. I was one of the suckers that rushed my antiserum with plat only to find that I could not complete the raid due to progression blocking bugs.
    
  
  
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  Decryption: Way too slow. Intuitive design and I definitely love the fact that it's actually worth it (and necessary!) to kill enemies as opposed to CC & ignore. It's just way too slow and not a whole lot changes from 0% to 100%. I'd cut the time in half or even down to 1/3 of what it is now or at least add some kind of mechanic to speed it up. Suggestion: The longer you're at "high performance", the faster it goes. Rewarded for maintaining the vaporizers at max power.

  
  
  
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  >>Stage 2:
  
  
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  First portion: Weird that there's a 2-man locked door but not really all that important one way or another. Introduction of the Esophage for on-foot sections is weird considering what they were in Stage 1 archwing sections, but things flow together smoothly. Combines elements of gameplay you saw in Stage 1 and had time to digest while adding some new ones.

  
  
  
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  Elevator section: The elevator ride is smooth and makes sense. Lots of options for feeding vaporizers, lots of opportunity to min/max your timing and quantity of antiserum necessary to climb. Combat is necessary once again, but it's not an obstruction to the objective.

  
  
  
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  Extraction section: This is dumb. The timer is way too short. Really annoying in regards to the rare containers (again, see below). It feels like it was initially intended to be a transition into archwing with a mini-cutscene that merges Stage 2 and Stage 3 but was abandoned in favor of having the golem and tumor maze on a separate loading screen. Also there's still that room with the doorway into the void there right before the explosive barrel. Weird bug.

  
  
  
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  >>Stage 3:
  
  

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  Spores are inconsistent when shoving them into the Golem's face. Sometimes a clear hit will not trigger the tunnel sequence. But a really simple and fun mechanic that takes things you established in Stage 1 in a new way.

  
  
  
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  Tunnels are fun. Sure, there are ways to trivialize them, but they are the best version of archwing content: go fast and be precise. Though they might want to take a second pass at it with certain graphics settings to ensure the contrast is clear enough to show the path. The weaving of white/beige into orange/red is a great way to show progression. There are a few clipping issues you might run into when bumping and banging into things you are a bit liberal with your super boosts. Possible to get stuck inside terrain or pushed out the map.

  
  
  
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  They did a great job of cleaning up the visual clutter for the tumor maze, but there's still a bit more room for improvement (visually). Phase 2's button glass part for example is a bit awkward. Specifically the glass - the opening isn't very clear or wide. But maybe something like using lights to sort of guide the players toward what needs to be done at a given time. Not necessarily a direct line on the spoonfeed express, but something that could help completely new players realize what is going on without having to stall for more time with the spores outside. I would strongly recommend being more generous with vaporizer timers as well (more on that in mechanics section).

  
  
  
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  On that note: Phase 1 and Phase 3 are easily manageable within the time available after knocking in one spore (and not leaving anyone outside to refresh the timer), but Phase 2 is much slower with the moving of vaporizers. Requires you to farm/waste more antiserum as a result. Maybe speed up the transition sections.

  
  
  
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  There appear to still be some host/client issues. Example: Phase 2 tumor maze esophage will not grab the vaporizer properly if the host is outside knocking spores in.

  
  
  
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  Burn phases where you damage the golem are straight forward but I'm really not digging how you can't really avoid the heat nova thing. Really minor but very unsatisfying.

  
  
  
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  The death scene is a bit cheesy (and kind of underwhelming) but fun. Wish it was a bit more hype but it's probably fine.

  
  
  

MECHANICS

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  >>Antiserum
  
  
• All things considered, this mechanic is not terrible. It could be made better, and I think having the drops shared between the party rather than individual drops is a mistake, but it works.
  
• It also interestingly made Nekros a viable raid member.
  
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  >>Spores
  
  
• While they are intuitive for pushing around, there are several issues with them. Hitbox detection seems off in many instances, such as connecting to walls or other environmental objects. Some ability interactions seem terrible while others work well. Odonata's Repel (#4) is example of good interaction while Elytron's Thumper (#3) is bad interaction.
  
• Another issue with the hitboxes is that navigating around the spores to angle yourself in a way to properly knock it down the objective path is rough. You will collide with the spore as you try to fly around it, making it pointlessly more difficult to get into the right spot quickly.
  
• And related to the two above points: Stage 3's interaction with the Golem's face plate... things and the spores is a bit off. For a brief period around release it was fine (can't remember if it was initial version or one of the hotfixes) but somewhere in the later hotfixes they made a change to this which caused difficulty in connecting spores. It's not great.
  
• There is a major issue with the spores that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later: At seemingly random times, possibly due to the way they spawn, some spores will take damage from your melee attacks while pushing them whilst others are completely fine when melee is used to push. Ability use as far as I have seen does not affect spore health.
  
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  >>Esophage
  
  
• While they're not the most intuitive or immersive part of the raid, they definitely serve their purpose. The only problem is that there is a long delay between using and being ported to the other side that in some instances it is better to ignore them if possible. A great example of this would be the Stage 2 elevator sequence in which you could just bullet jump up to the platform rather than take the clunky and slow esophage if you happen to have been left behind on the bottom floor. It doesn't have to be instantaneous travel, but I do think it's worth taking a second pass at to get rid of the clunky elements.
  
• However, one tiny oversight is that if your group happens to not have any weapons that can shoot through the grate on Stage 3 then you're screwed. Really low chance of this kind of loadout nightmare happening, but just something to keep in mind.
  
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  Vaporizers
  
  
• These are... interesting. They're necessary to the objective, but only necessary to gameplay without a blessing Trinity. They're intuitive as to how they function (after using the very first one), but they're not intuitive as to why they function. They have interesting visual cues, but they lack clear visual indicators. Overall, I like this mechanic, but I see room for improvement in a few ways:
  
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  The 'charge bar' on the side of the vaporizers should be reworked to show when decay is about to kick in rather than just chunking to the 0, 1, 2, 3 states. Not necessary, but a nice aesthetic touch.

  
  
  
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  There are several bugs with interaction range on these things. Sometimes you can stand next to them and it's fine, sometimes you have to stand 5m away, sometimes you have to stand right up inside of them. Noticeable as client and as host. Stage 1 and 2 are mostly fine in this regard, it's mostly in Stage 3, but all of them have that weird "Only from this side!" kind of thing going on.

  
  
  
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  There is an issue which only affects the host: If you mash your interact key while waiting by a vaporizer there is a chance it consumes your antiserum without doing anything.

  
  
  
• Oh and just to clarify on the "why do they work" comment I made: I get that they cleanse the infestation off of things, but that doesn't make sense with how electronics suddenly start working again. Just because you cleansed a terminal doesn't mean you cleansed all the circuitry or the power source connecting to it. Anything outside the bubble is still dysfunctional, right? :V
  

And one last thing: I think stage 3 Vaporizers should last a bit longer. Some specific examples:

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  Phase 1 Vaporizer under the hack terminals. Even if you wait to pop it up until someone is standing by the hack terminal, it will still deplete before the hack can be finished (without ciphers) on the second terminal.

  
  
  
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  Phase 2 Vaporizer upstairs when it transitions on the rail. The travel time is too slow (+interaction bugs are common).

  
  
  
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  Phase 3 Vaporizer on the lowest point, under the esophage that leads to the final room. Even on a super-fast run you're likely to have to feed it at least one more to take the esophage after the hack is done and the upper esophage is prepped.

  
  
  
• All three of those could stand to last longer in particular. The pacing as they are now is fine, it's just some tedium that feels rough.
  
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  >>Armor Integrity
  
  
• Overall a good mechanic. The one problem I think needs to be addressed are the Stage 3 'surge' events after breaking the tumor. Exiting before the purge timer runs out will most likely still completely deplete your armor integrity which means you will have to use an Antiserum from your gear wheel in order to not instantly die upon re-entering, especially now that the vaporizers disappear when not being used and there's no long an immediate safe spot in the first room.
  
• Oh, related note, you can use the gear wheel to manually activate antiserum to restore armor integrity. Really neat function, but it's never explained in gameplay.
  
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  >>Enemy Armor
  
  
• 4x Corrosive Projection is still essential.
  
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  >>Trinity Dependence
  
  
• While it's true that you do not need a Trinity to complete this raid and it is definitely much easier to complete without Trinity than TLOR, it is still essentially a mandatory spot. EV and Blessing Trin do not trivialize the objectives, but they dramatically reduce your dependence on consumables (such as team restores). You are not dependent on abilities and therefor not dependent on an energy battery, but I can only imagine what the Nightmare version will be like combined with the Infested faction's notorious Parasitic eximus variants. And Toxic. Being able to use Blessing to mitigate the Armor Integrity mechanic and facilitate the tunnel sequences on Stage 3 seem fine as is.
  

RARE CONTAINERS

• Not gonna sugarcoat my opinion on this: I think it's bad as it is now. In about 22 runs so far I've seen 3 rare (0 reinforced) containers. Every single one of these runs we've had someone dedicated to looking for them. From using unscanned Codex scanners to find them sticking through walls in the telltale orange to running around with syndicate weapons to have the procs open up anything we might have missed in the tumor maze. We even dedicate 1-2 people per Stage 2 elevator run to sweep the bottom/top floors as we progress in order to scout them out. I'm not going to say we're entitled to them or anything so bold as that, but it is definitely disappointing relative to how common they are in TLOR. Plus it's literally the last part I need for my Mantis so I'm super peeved at the 0 reinforced ^{insert angry emoticon here}. Now specifically:
  
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  >>Stage 1
  
  
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  On foot section part 1 (AKA antiserum farming): The tumor-locked room (preview of stage 3!) is super neat but I have not seen a single rare/reinforced spawn in there. Nor in the upstairs loot room hidden from the vents. Kind of dumb but it seems as if the key preservation nullified the opportunity for these hidden rooms to contain rare containers.

  
  
  
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  Decryption: I have actually found a rare in the decryption enemy spawn rooms, but only once.

  
  
  
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  >>Stage 2
  
  
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  I've seen one spawn in one of the side rooms of the first section on the upper level and one in that basement level (side rooms where enemies spawn).

  
  
  
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  I've heard they can spawn in the elevator base floor or top floor but have yet to find any with dedicated scouts.

  
  
  
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  Extraction path has a 'hidden' room behind an explosive but very little time to explore and lots of loot radar blips on the map.

  
  
  
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  >>Stage 3
  
  
• Assuming they only spawn within the tumor maze but I have never seen them there. There's a whole lot of visual clutter and not a lot of time to explore and find a rare container. Ultimately it's just disappointing Stage 3 starts off immediately in the thick of things unlike TLOR which gives you the build up to the boss and a chance to explore and hunt for rare containers.
  

CLOSING THOUGHTS

• The raid design overall, though less intuitive than TLOR's design, is fun. It's not super hard in terms of gameplay, but in terms of discovery and communication. My nightly groups is now regularly clearing it in under 30 minutes even when playing sloppy (26:32 best run yet and no exploits!). It seems completely feasible to get it done around 25 minutes (which is still longer than TLOR).
  
• But I have some definite concerns that DE needs to address at some point.
  
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    1. If they want to release a "Beta" raid, they need to set up a proper dialog with the players where we can provide feedback and receive some kind of affirmation that the feedback is being received. Right now it feels like all of these bug reports are just being cast into a vacuum.

    
    
    
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    2. As more trials (and nightmare variants) are added, something must be done about the method of acquiring arcanes. I appreciate each trial having a unique pool, but those unique pools have fodder arcanes (TLOR particularly). When TJV(NM) comes out, I'm not sure if I can commit to running ~2hrs+ a night to roll the dice and will probably just drop TLOR despite still wanting more Arcane Grace and the like to put on individual warframes. A token system[1] would be a great way to reward repeated play for the trials in particular. I would also recommend eventually transitioning the trials to only offer rewards for a maximum of 3 times a week (and respectively increasing the reward gained per trial). It would allow you to set up raid nights to run X or Y trial without effectively missing a cooldown period.

    
    
    
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    3. They cannot repeat some of the bigger mistakes made with the trials in the past. TLOR had a few major bugs that greatly impeded progression, but nothing as bad as TJV. At the very least, they should never push an update out at a time they cannot follow up on it (i.e. Friday evening). I'd rather have the thing which is slightly broken but still works until Monday than the thing which is completely broken until Monday, for example.

    
    
    
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    4. Trial reward lockouts should be tied to the daily reset rather than 23hr. Just a convenience thing, especially if you happen to miss a day with your regular group and still want to complete the raid on your own.

    
    
    
  
  

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This bullet point thing was the only makeshift solution I could piece together without having to spend too much time redoing the format all over again. Kind of annoying how these forums limit RTE options but that's another case.

[Dobermann92]

I was a sucker too....anyway nice feedback I can agree with you almost every point.

 

I don't like the elevator part because I suck at parkour 2.0.

 

Also tunnels are nightmare, I cannot complete it without a blessing trin inside. The shield drain should be lowered.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Dobermann92

[Eda.Mone]

nEVER PLAYED IT, MR16 BUT LAZY LYFE

[TGDM]

I was a sucker too....anyway nice feedback I can agree with you almost every point.

 

I don't like the elevator part because I suck at parkour 2.0.

 

Also tunnels are nightmare, I cannot complete it without a blessing trin inside. The shield drain should be lowered.

 

I hope the shield drain mechanic punishes you even harder for hitting walls in Nightmare :^)

 

You could try using some Team Shield Restores to buy you more time if you're having trouble navigating inside. It's just a matter of learning how to go quickly and make some of the sharper turns. For the most part it's a fluid line you're riding on with very gentle changes in direction.

[Buff00n]

First I'd like to say that TGDM runs by far the smoothest raids I've ever been a part of.

 

Very good feedback.  The only thing I would add is just the general difficulty of finding your way around the inside section on phase 3.  You can see a waypoint behind a wall and have no idea how to get there.  With all the pathways crossing over top of each other the mini-map is all but useless.  It's hard to tell what parts of the wall are actually doors without watching someone else go through first.

 

I get that it's all twisted and organic, and that's cool.  But it's almost impossible to navigate.  I will admit that I've never had trouble finding the exit before purging, but it's the only point that's easy to find.

 

 

Also tunnels are nightmare, I cannot complete it without a blessing trin inside. The shield drain should be lowered.

 

I find that slow and steady wins the race.  Every time I try to push it I end up wasting more time bouncing off things that if I had just taken it easy.

[TGDM]

First I'd like to say that TGDM runs by far the smoothest raids I've ever been a part of.

 

d'aww

 

Looks like 17.12.0 improved the Vaporizer interactions quite a bit!

 

And I guess this bump is as good of a time as any to clarify on Stage 3: It is completely possible to finish each tumor maze phase within one spore (i.e. no one staying outside to knock in more). Phase 2 just takes a wee bit longer and I'm sure many groups still have to keep the training wheels on as they're learning the layout of the tumor maze. If the intention was to let someone stay outside to knock in spores a feature only for Normal mode, as a way to prepare and familiarize yourself, then that will make Nightmare mode much more interesting (though I hope it's not tied to an instant failure mechanic if you do not). With the improvements to the vaporizer interactions, you're no longer wasting precious seconds trying to fiddle with the damn things to get in range and activate them.