[Pvp] Please Adjust Ash Prime

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Aparently almost all people here play Ash PvP in the Duel Room not in actual Conclave matches. The abilities (sans Shuriken) walk a fine line between unreliable and useless, the only reason the frame is succesful is because of the stats, now you frogsh*ts who don't actually play ash ever want a nerf on a frame that barely has tools to actually fight? what are you smoking?

And tell me, by chance, any of those overpowered Ash you keep running into are killing you only with abilities and bulletjump or with definetly not overpowered weapons (like Marelok)?

Phased, Benj and Pytha who seem to be praising ash's kit. Are probably the most devout players I know, phased and benj have been playing pvp foo over two years so I assure you they know what they are talking about.

 

I assure you phased and benj and pytha are not smoking anything, "illegal" ;-)

 

But lets go back to reality here, shuriken is by far one of the best 1 casts in the game. His blade storm may be unfavorable but is the only ult in the game that insta targets players in an AOE radius as upposed to to other ults where you can run away from. His smoke screen although situational, can be really usefull in getting the drop on an opponent. 

 

The only instance where I can agree with you on that "ash's kit is bad" is his teleport.

 

But anyways you have 2 reall good abilities and and invis cast, paired with a 1.2 sprint speed and tank-tier EHPs. If that does not make sense I dont know what does.

[Nazrethim]

Phased, Benj and Pytha who seem to be praising ash's kit. Are probably the most devout players I know, phased and benj have been playing pvp foo over two years so I assure you they know what they are talking about.

 

I assure you phased and benj and pytha are not smoking anything, "illegal" ;-)

 

But lets go back to reality here, shuriken is by far one of the best 1 casts in the game. His blade storm may be unfavorable but is the only ult in the game that insta targets players in an AOE radius as upposed to to other ults where you can run away from. His smoke screen although situational, can be really usefull in getting the drop on an opponent. 

 

The only instance where I can agree with you on that "ash's kit is bad" is his teleport.

 

But anyways you have 2 reall good abilities and and invis cast, paired with a 1.2 sprint speed and tank-tier EHPs. If that does not make sense I dont know what does.

1 Good ability, Bladestorm range and targeting make it VERY unreliable to be considered good even if the actual effects are. Smoke bomb wouldn't be situational if it didn't break on anything.

Ash Prime may have good sprint speed and EHP, but he is not nearly as hard as a Frost Prime, nor as agile as normal Ash (I have both and only Ash P is fit for melee because normal Ash lacks the durability necesary)

What I'm trying unsuccesfully to convey is the "No nerf without balance", I would agree reducing Ash P mobility if the abilities are brought up to full usefulness. And DE would probably just nerf ash and give no improvement to abilities (look at how much people complain of WoF, yet it's still broken)

Edited November 29, 2015 by Nazrethim

[JonBenj]

90% of the time i enter every match with Ash, because i prefer the mobility - or if i'm playing very inexperienced players i'll use Loki Prime with a Vectis.

 

If the match is tough and i'm finding mysefl getting melted by a team or a player - I have the choice to go to my Ash Prime build.

 

Two things i can feel straight away - 1/ Lack of vertical mobility 2/ A good 25-30% chunk of survability, sprint speed is not so relevent for me as i have other ways to get around quickly.

 

Should we have such a huge ehp difference between the vanilla and Prime? I would rather have the mobilty and see a reduction in Health/Sheild or Armor.

Edited November 29, 2015 by JonBenj

[Pythadragon]

1 Good ability, Bladestorm range and targeting make it VERY unreliable to be considered good even if the actual effects are. Smoke bomb wouldn't be situational if it didn't break on anything.

Ash Prime may have good sprint speed and EHP, but he is not nearly as hard as a Frost Prime, nor as agile as normal Ash (I have both and only Ash P is fit for melee because normal Ash lacks the durability necesary)

 

Does 16 EHp qualify as 'not nearly as hard as a frost prime?"

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/550458-reference-ehp-mobility-by-frame/

 

Ash prime with +health mod has 427 EHP

Frost prime with +shield mod has 443 EHP

Ash normal with +health mod has 356 EHP

 

These are the ideal mod choices for tankiness. 16 EHP is nothing, yet Ash p has both a higher bullet jump speed and +0.25 sprint speed.

Normal Ash is faster because normal ash does not have the EHP to back it up. He follows the regular ehp vs mobility curve.

[Phasedragon]

Does 16 EHp qualify as 'not nearly as hard as a frost prime?"

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/550458-reference-ehp-mobility-by-frame/

 

Ash prime with +health mod has 427 EHP

Frost prime with +shield mod has 443 EHP

Ash normal with +health mod has 356 EHP

 

These are the ideal mod choices for tankiness. 16 EHP is nothing, yet Ash p has both a higher bullet jump speed and +0.25 sprint speed.

Normal Ash is faster because normal ash does not have the EHP to back it up. He follows the regular ehp vs mobility curve.

 

 

That's also not to mention that with the 50 over shields mod, ash prime literally takes over 3 vectis shots as far as I know. Something that can tank that much should be nigh unmovable. This is almost the case with frost prime, but not even close with ash prime. This is exactly why I say warframe should not have tanks. Make the only major distinction between frames the abilities they wield.

 

I just ran into a match where I joined 3 minutes late and won with 15 kills, but then the next match match everyone switched to ash prime. I only got 3 kills after 5 minutes. Except that's because the fact was I wasn't fighting players, I was fighting stats. Nothing changed in my loadout, excalibur and vectis. Nothing changed in the players I was fighting. All that changed was the frame they were using. Obviously I am very rusty because FO4 and all that, but why should I tryhard just to beat some players because they have way better gear than I do? Am I being forced to grind in pve for a frame that I don't like, or perhaps I can buy one for 300 plat? What happened to everything being balanced?

Edited November 29, 2015 by PhaseShifted

[Nazrethim]

That's also not to mention that with the 50 over shields mod, ash prime literally takes over 3 vectis shots as far as I know. Something that can tank that much should be nigh unmovable. This is almost the case with frost prime, but not even close with ash prime.

You are forgeting that Frost Prime does have abilities to complement how slow he is, while Ash's basic desing is about mobility and his abilities are really poor in effectiveness sans shuriken.

Still, even if you are right about stats my point still stands: Ash Prime is the ONLY warframe that currently can be used in pure melee until DE decides to buff  pure melee survivability and mobility. And considering we have monstrosities like Ember's WoF and Excalibur's EB I don't see a problem with Ash P stats.

[Shin]

That's also not to mention that with the 50 over shields mod, ash prime literally takes over 3 vectis shots as far as I know. Something that can tank that much should be nigh unmovable. 

To be perfectly honest, thats sniper rifles problem not the Tanks EHP. If nothing, rest of the frames surviveability should be buffed if you ask me. Then turn the Snipers into something that kills in two shots if you land shots on your target in a couple of seconds. Being slow is just annoying. I dont wanna see any frame's movement speed etc get nerfed at this point. Supposed tanks like Valkyr etc easily gets murdered by Puncture weapons still. Broken loadouts are still out there but we nerf frames instead of balancing the weapons and damage types first.

 

 

but why should I tryhard just to beat some players because they have way better gear than I do? Am I being forced to grind in pve for a frame that I don't like, or perhaps I can buy one for 300 plat? What happened to everything being balanced?

Adapting to the equipments of your enemy is important aswell. Its not called being a Tryhard. 

 

Also im sorry but thats called being lazy. If you dont wanna adapt and counter your enemies playstyle with different weapons and frames etc, you're going to have to deal with it or get better at what you are doing to counter them. I myself got killed by overshield frosts but i know the reason why i died. Sometimes i die a lot because im trying to get used to the new load out im trying or i just switch to my anti tank loadout to mess with them.

 

Balance is out there so you can deal with them with something else if you cant do it with your current one. I repeat again, its not called being a Tryhard. If anyone is accusing you of being one, just laugh at them and hunt them even more.

[-Kryptyk-]

To be perfectly honest, thats sniper rifles problem not the Tanks EHP. If nothing, rest of the frames surviveability should be buffed if you ask me. Then turn the Snipers into something that kills in two shots if you land shots on your target in a couple of seconds. Being slow is just annoying. I dont wanna see any frame's movement speed etc get nerfed at this point. Supposed tanks like Valkyr etc easily gets murdered by Puncture weapons still. Broken loadouts are still out there but we nerf frames instead of balancing the weapons and damage types first.

 

 

Adapting to the equipments of your enemy is important aswell. Its not called being a Tryhard. 

 

Also im sorry but thats called being lazy. If you dont wanna adapt and counter your enemies playstyle with different weapons and frames etc, you're going to have to deal with it or get better at what you are doing to counter them. I myself got killed by overshield frosts but i know the reason why i died. Sometimes i die a lot because im trying to get used to the new load out im trying or i just switch to my anti tank loadout to mess with them.

 

Balance is out there so you can deal with them with something else if you cant do it with your current one. I repeat again, its not called being a Tryhard. If anyone is accusing you of being one, just laugh at them and hunt them even more.

This ^

[Phasedragon]

To be perfectly honest, thats sniper rifles problem not the Tanks EHP. If nothing, rest of the frames surviveability should be buffed if you ask me. Then turn the Snipers into something that kills in two shots if you land shots on your target in a couple of seconds. Being slow is just annoying. I dont wanna see any frame's movement speed etc get nerfed at this point. Supposed tanks like Valkyr etc easily gets murdered by Puncture weapons still. Broken loadouts are still out there but we nerf frames instead of balancing the weapons and damage types first.

 

Lower ehp frames are perfectly balanced. 2 vectis shots works fine. Nothing needs to change their. 4, however,  is far too many, especially when the frame that can take that many can move nearly as well as the others. I'm not saying their movement speed should be nerfed, in fact I'm saying they should be buffed to the point of the others. It's their crazy high ehp that needs to be nerfed to be down to the level of literally everything else. 

 

Adapting to the equipments of your enemy is important aswell. Its not called being a Tryhard. 

 

Also im sorry but thats called being lazy. If you dont wanna adapt and counter your enemies playstyle with different weapons and frames etc, you're going to have to deal with it or get better at what you are doing to counter them. I myself got killed by overshield frosts but i know the reason why i died. Sometimes i die a lot because im trying to get used to the new load out im trying or i just switch to my anti tank loadout to mess with them.

 

Balance is out there so you can deal with them with something else if you cant do it with your current one. I repeat again, its not called being a Tryhard. If anyone is accusing you of being one, just laugh at them and hunt them even more.

 

 

Now that's just BS. Up to a certain point, there is no adjusting to someone's playstyle, because it wasn't a playstyle being changed, they just literally got as much as double their health. There is no adjusting to that. I've just played several more matches today and quite literally 80% of players were using ash prime because he's straight up better than everything else by a very wide margin. This needs to be fixed.

[Shin]

Lower ehp frames are perfectly balanced. 2 vectis shots works fine. Nothing needs to change their. 4, however,  is far too many, especially when the frame that can take that many can move nearly as well as the others. I'm not saying their movement speed should be nerfed, in fact I'm saying they should be buffed to the point of the others. It's their crazy high ehp that needs to be nerfed to be down to the level of literally everything else. 

2 Vectis shot is not going to kill the future tanks, my suggestions would be reasonable against tanks. I was pointing at the Sniper's effectiveness on tanks. Im not against Snipers killing me with 2 shots however i am cold towards this whole EHP and Speed buffs because they are strictly dependant to each other. 

 

Why? Because we got Puncture damage. This thing feels like it makes the whole tankyness thing irrelevant. Furis, Boltor series, or hell almost every Fast firing weapon will murder anyone in between 4 seconds and we're not even talking about Headshots. A Single bullet from Furis can deal 74 crit damage to frames like Loki. Why is this a thing is beyond me. Everyone seems to ignore the whole 2x Headshot damage while calculating things, that is why i dont depend on any EHP calculations, you cant know how many Headshots your opponent will land.

 

If im going to have a reallly really low mobility, that Tankyness must worth a damn because as sure as hell i am being slow makes you totally squishy.

 

That is why im saying that every frame should be brough to Ash P's stats. After we can see people using different frames because they wont be squishy.

 

 

Now that's just BS. Up to a certain point, there is no adjusting to someone's playstyle, because it wasn't a playstyle being changed, they just literally got as much as double their health. 

I was in a TDM where i was up against a guy who was using Gorgon and i was using my Valkyr with + armor mods and was using Latron prime with Double tap mod on. Needless to say his surviveability was close to zero as i was strictly going for headshots. After dying to me like 5 times, he switched to Dera and he started destroying me. Why? Because his damage type changed and my tankyness wasnt a problem against his Dera. 

 

He adapted to my playstyle, me using Valkyrs ability to soak up damage and deal damage at the same time with my Latron P. 

 

He adapted and we kept switching loadouts to conquer each other and that was a goddamn fun game. Why? Because my opponent was adapting to me and he wasnt bad at doing it. You see what happened there? Stats changed, Game play changed, Results changed.

 

 

There is no adjusting to that. I've just played several more matches today and quite literally 80% of players were using ash prime because he's straight up better than everything else by a very wide margin. This needs to be fixed.

I cant talk for sure about this as im not that active these days while waiting for U18. I played like 4 or 5 games today and i havent seen an Ash P in my games. All i see is Mags with Karaks or  Embers running with Gorgons(now i do this aswell because i like fighting fire with fire). I dont mind the change so long as they do something about the whole thing before deciding to nerf the whole frames. There's an Elephant in the room, nerfing Ash or Frost wont make a difference in the long shot.

[Phasedragon]

I was in a TDM where i was up against a guy who was using Gorgon and i was using my Valkyr with + armor mods and was using Latron prime with Double tap mod on. Needless to say his surviveability was close to zero as i was strictly going for headshots. After dying to me like 5 times, he switched to Dera and he started destroying me. Why? Because his damage type changed and my tankyness wasnt a problem against his Dera. 

 

He adapted to my playstyle, me using Valkyrs ability to soak up damage and deal damage at the same time with my Latron P. 

 

He adapted and we kept switching loadouts to conquer each other and that was a goddamn fun game. Why? Because my opponent was adapting to me and he wasnt bad at doing it. You see what happened there? Stats changed, Game play changed, Results changed.

 

 

 

....Seriously? That's because valkyr has a huge weakness, being puncture damage. Ash prime does not. Simple as that. 

 

 

That is why im saying that every frame should be brough to Ash P's stats. After we can see people using different frames because they wont be squishy.

 

Weapons are balanced around the average frame like oberon and saryn, not ash prime. Time to kill is already far too long. Making everyone have as much as twice as much health.....I mean, I've seen some dumb suggestions, but that's just absurd. In most average games it's rare to get a full 25 kills already; doing that would mean like 10 kills at most per player in a full game. No, ash prime needs to be taken down to the level of the others, not the other way around.

[Nazrethim]

....Seriously? That's because valkyr has a huge weakness, being puncture damage. Ash prime does not. Simple as that. 

 

 

 

Weapons are balanced around the average frame like oberon and saryn, not ash prime. Time to kill is already far too long. Making everyone have as much as twice as much health.....I mean, I've seen some dumb suggestions, but that's just absurd. In most average games it's rare to get a full 25 kills already; doing that would mean like 10 kills at most per player in a full game. No, ash prime needs to be taken down to the level of the others, not the other way around.

And Frost Prime EHP needs to be nerfed too, and Chroma's, and pretty much any frame until we are 100h /100s/65armor frames with 0.5 mobility. That would be balanced. Also,  I played 7 matches in anihilation, 3 on team deatmatch and 5 cep cap yesterday. Number of Ash Primes: Me and none else, I saw a lot of Embers, Excaliburs and Rhino tho. Ocasionally a Nova or Loki. Where the f**k do you see everyone using Ash P?! And please, tell me those you found weren't using Gorgons or Mareloks or Kittags or Karaks or Boltors or any other op weapon

[Shin]

....Seriously? That's because valkyr has a huge weakness, being puncture damage. Ash prime does not. Simple as that. 

No. If you bothered reading all that, its about Puncture making every frame a joke.

 

 

Weapons are balanced around the average frame like oberon and saryn, not ash prime. Time to kill is already far too long. Making everyone have as much as twice as much health.....I mean, I've seen some dumb suggestions, but that's just absurd. In most average games it's rare to get a full 25 kills already; doing that would mean like 10 kills at most per player in a full game. No, ash prime needs to be taken down to the level of the others, not the other way around.

How so? How is Opticor half charge, Marelok, Akvasto, Akmagnus, Gorgon Series, Shotguns and hitscans weapons balanced around those frames ? Excuse me but they are not. That TTK you are talking about is extremely low when used against those frames and again ,you are ignoring Headshots.

 

Making everyone have that surviveability would make the Speed valuable. Its not a dumb or absurd suggestion. Its your dislike towards Ash P is whats making you think that way. Never once i thought that Ash p was op in anyway even when i was playing against them. The thought didnt even cross my mind, all i could think at those situations was the mistakes i made. I think people should work on that before calling things "OP".

 

The TTK and Mobility are directly related to each other, if you are going to change one, you are going to need to change the other aswell. 

[BoyTitan]

....Seriously? That's because valkyr has a huge weakness, being puncture damage. Ash prime does not. Simple as that. 

 

 

 

Weapons are balanced around the average frame like oberon and saryn, not ash prime. Time to kill is already far too long. Making everyone have as much as twice as much health.....I mean, I've seen some dumb suggestions, but that's just absurd. In most average games it's rare to get a full 25 kills already; doing that would mean like 10 kills at most per player in a full game. No, ash prime needs to be taken down to the level of the others, not the other way around.

Shin has a really good idea. Slightly buffing every warframes ehp but also buffing weapons damage would give a lower ttk with out making everything tanky or squishy.

Edited November 29, 2015 by BoyTitan

[Phasedragon]

Shin has a really good idea. Slightly buffing every warframes ehp but also buffing weapons damage would give a lower ttk with out making everything tanky or squishy.

 

For one, he never mentioned anything about buffing weapons. He just wants to increase the TTK to the point of making every battle drag on for eternity. Even with weapons being buffed equally, what's the point of that? Buffing literally everything? Don't you see that would do nothing? We can multiply every single number in the game by 10, make warframes have 2-4 thousand health, make a vectis do around 1200 damage. It would be the same thing. There's no point.

[Shin]

For one, he never mentioned anything about buffing weapons. He just wants to increase the TTK to the point of making every battle drag on for eternity. Even with weapons being buffed equally, what's the point of that? Buffing literally everything? Don't you see that would do nothing? We can multiply every single number in the game by 10, make warframes have 2-4 thousand health, make a vectis do around 1200 damage. It would be the same thing. There's no point.

I mentioned weapons because they are related to the Surviveability, and that is related with Movement speed, thats where the topic comes from right? You cant talk about something while ignoring the other parts of the problem.

 

At thins point i dont see what you are trying to prove or say, you need to be more spesific.

[Phasedragon]

I mentioned weapons because they are related to the Surviveability, and that is related with Movement speed, thats where the topic comes from right? You cant talk about something while ignoring the other parts of the problem.

 

At thins point i dont see what you are trying to prove or say, you need to be more spesific.

 

 

Tanks should not be a thing in warframe. They do not work with warframe's high movement speed. At best, they are a crutch for someone who doesn't already know how to properly move, causing them to develop bad habits and never play how the game was designed. At worst, they are used by players who already know how to move well and can get around the restrictions imposed on them through glitches or unintended movements (especially relating to ash p's sprint speed.) This gives them a huge advantage and there is simply no way of playing around someone's play style when they just have more health than you.

 

On another note, slower movement does not actually affect how hard you are to hit. The entire point originally was that they'd be easier to hit but have more health. In reality, though, they are still changing directions just as fast, even if their top speed is slower. This makes the overall survivability of them far higher than other frames with no real downside.

 

I would implore you to find a single game that has balanced tanks with a loadout system like warframe's. When you can apply any weapon to any frame, they cannot be balanced around roles. Choose one: Roles like tanks or customization of loadouts.

Edited November 29, 2015 by PhaseShifted

[Nazrethim]

Then why picking a balanced frame? I don't see you suggesting nerfing Frost or other tanks, just Ash P who is waaaayy slower than his normal counterpart by the way, and I know because I have both and have used both to compare. If you go with normal stats, Ash prime isn't a big deal, and if you build him with tanky mods you esentially can't bulletjump, or dodge properly for that matter due to lack of mobility, the Sprinting speed and reasonable EHP is the only defense Ash P has.

[Shin]

-snip

I know, the most recent one i played was Planetside 2 where you have these " Heavy " class which has access to most dangerous weapons aswell as a straight damage absorbing shield that makes 1 v 1 's boring.

 

On the case of Warframe though, the whole conflict about this situation comes from frames not having properly set amounts of Surviveability, hence why im against straight stat nerfs. I'd be totally okay if the other frames were to get buffed even though that doesnt solve the high damage problem. 

 

Im however, against Stat nerfs while we have these overly dangerous weapons. 

 

On another note, slower movement does not actually affect how hard you are to hit. The entire point originally was that they'd be easier to hit but have more health. In reality, though, they are still changing directions just as fast, even if their top speed is slower. This makes the overall survivability of them far higher than other frames with no real downside.

You see the idea to nerf them would be on point, if our weaponry wasnt as powerful as this, granted any lower than this would turn the tanks into bullsht but low TTK turns the nerfs into Overnerfs because you cant exactly dodge the shots while being slow and even if you did, if your opponent knows how to aim, a good chunk of your hp will go down as you try to leave the combat which cripples the use of skill in combat.

[BoyTitan]

For one, he never mentioned anything about buffing weapons. He just wants to increase the TTK to the point of making every battle drag on for eternity. Even with weapons being buffed equally, what's the point of that? Buffing literally everything? Don't you see that would do nothing? We can multiply every single number in the game by 10, make warframes have 2-4 thousand health, make a vectis do around 1200 damage. It would be the same thing. There's no point.

No you would buff the weapons more. The ehp gets a 15% 20% buff and the weapons each get a 30-50% buff. Otherwise buffing the weapons would either make them op or make lighter warframes useless. Think of how broken overpowered mode is at times.

Edited November 29, 2015 by BoyTitan

[rockscl]

that suggestion would polarize EHP further and put a lot of frames in the 1shot window, making heavy tanks mandatory again, if you intend to put guns around the current 1shot treshold, then as a result tanks would be relatively harder than before as they would gain more EHP and guns would remain in the same RTK values against light frames, making tanks mandatory again anyway

Edited November 29, 2015 by rockscl

[BoyTitan]

that suggestion would polarize EHP further and put a lot of frames in the 1shot window, making heavy tanks mandatory again, if you intend to put guns around the current 1shot treshold, then as a result tanks would be relatively harder than before as they would gain more EHP and guns would remain in the same RTK values against light frames, making tanks mandatory again anyway

How if its made so nothing can be 1 shotted aside from head shots and direct shot gun fire. Look closely at what I wrote.

[Nazrethim]

How if its made so nothing can be 1 shotted aside from head shots and direct shot gun fire. Look closely at what I wrote.

and what about melee? should one-shot too? channeled, combo, quickmelee? slam?

[Shin]

No you would buff the weapons more. 

No need to buff weapons. Pulling the frames to Ash P or Frost P's level would be enough. Only thing that would require a buff i guess would be the Snipers. 

 

I dont have the numbers but people are saying that Ash P needing upto 3 sniper shots to be killed.

[Nazrethim]

No need to buff weapons. Pulling the frames to Ash P or Frost P's level would be enough. Only thing that would require a buff i guess would be the Snipers. 

 

I dont have the numbers but people are saying that Ash P needing upto 3 sniper shots to be killed.

With the +hp/shield/armor -mobility yes, 3 body shots, the same with the overshield, if you have both it's still 3, headshots are instakill regardless of modding.