Rhino Changes Feedback [U18 Megathread]

[shut]

26 minutes ago, AnzeBozic said:

Well as long as we have rhino charge i really dont see that much point in this passive.

That's like saying that there isn't much point in Zephyr bulletjumping since she has Tailwind, or that there isn't much point in Atlas using melee since he has Landslide. Yes, those abilities do the job better, but the downfalls are that they cost energy, have long animation times, and prevent you from doing literally anything else during the animations. They also might be complete overkill (especially in Zephyr's case), which can potentially be very dangerous for the player.

Giving Rhino the "shove-everything-out-of-his-way" passive would let him position himself more easily before attacking crowds of enemies around him, jump up to nearby ledges without worrying about ospreys getting in the way, roll away from explosions without getting stuck on some lone fodder unit, and (most importantly) allow him to completely ignore, and casually stroll through, crowds of low-leveled enemies that are not worth the player's attention. These are all things that Rhino Charge is absolutely godawful at doing.

 

On the other hand, Rhino's current passive is redundant-- unless you're using Fangs or something, the passive does nothing that ground slams can't already do better. Rhino's gameplay did not change at all from the addition of the passive, and if it weren't for the blinding light and the ill-fitting sound effect every time he drops from a height, many players wouldn't even notice or care about the passive's existence.

I'd be fine if Heavy Impact were changed to complement ground slams, rather than replace them. For example, allowing the slam radius of HI to add to the slam radius of melee weapons would be absolutely fantastic; and it would not only make the mod worth using, but it would let Rhino's passive actually contribute to his gameplay as well.

Edited April 26, 2016 by SortaRandom

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

At the moment he is better, than he used to be, but he needs those changes, however he won't get any soon, because DE focuses on other frames now.

[shut]

Sheesh. All right, man, if you really want to do the whole point-for-point thing:

 

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

Manovers we have now do that better.

I was thinking mostly of melee combat. It's incredibly irritating when there's a priority target just out of my reach, but I can't close in because of a bunch of not-priority-targets in the way. Maneuvering around or over them is time-consuming, but a "shove-everything-out-of-my-way" passive would let Rhino casually stroll right through them as though they're not there.

Remember that I'm suggesting a QoL improvement, not a gamechanger.

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

I never ever had that problem, lol you must be a master to hit your head in ospreys butt.

It doesn't happen to me often, but definitely enough to be noticeable. This was just an example off the top of my head, mind; they aren't in order of most appearances or anything.

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

Rolling isnt running so it wouldnt work anyway and same point as at first quote.

What are you talking about? Do you never take advantage of the speed burst and the ~80% damage reduction that rolling offers?

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

You sure?

That's not an argument.

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

Not more than any other frame.

What does that even mean? I was talking about situations in which a "shove-everything-out-of-my-way" passive would be helpful but Rhino Charge wouldn't, like repositioning yourself a couple feet when surrounded by a sea of enemies. I'm not seeing any relevance in your response.

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

In both cases its about ability and something thats in game by default with every frame, in this case however its about ability rhino has and then this possibility for a passive, why give him passive for something which is kinda already covered by ability? Why not give him passive for something his abilities dont already handle pretty well despite their energy cost?

Because the passive is not something covered by his ability. The two are only similar in theme; ingame applications would be wildly different.

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

It breaks reload and not to mention it has animation which leaves you vulnerable for a moment afterwards which is huge downside that heavy impact doesnt have. I cant say this passive is much better right now due to how inpractical it is but like i sad if we would just improve it

This is true. To be fair, though, the vulnerable moment isn't all too significant if you've got Fury or something on your melee weapon. Heavy landings are definitely dangerous, but ground slam animations are far faster and far safer (especially if you roll away the instant the animation finishes).

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

And lol in first part of your post you are trying to show how your passive would still do just fine even when we have similar functioning muchanic on disposal 

We don't, though. "Move a set distance for 25 energy" is not even close to the same role as my suggested "ignore enemy collisions when doing any sort of movement whatsoever".

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

Thats would be nice yes, with out 2m radius passive we have now. But would still be better to just increase its default radius so it can stand on its own without the slam contribution, but should overwrite the slams radius then because suming up both would could be just ridicilous with some melee weapons.

I think that increasing its radius without letting it add to slams wouldn't fix the "overlapping role" problem at all. People wouldn't care about the improved passive for the same reason that people don't bother equipping Heavy Impact-- it just doesn't offer anything new.

Summing the radii together won't be too problematic on the Jat Kittag and such, either. Remember that you need to drop from a certain height for it to work; it's not like you can just bounce around and stunlock entire maps by mashing the space bar and E.

 

 

TL;DR

- Letting Rhino shove enemies aside by bumping into them is not even close to Rhino Charge's "slide ___ meters forward for 25 energy". The two wouldn't complement each other in any way, but their roles don't overlap, either.

- Rhino's current passive sucks. Increasing its range wouldn't change that; it's the Heavy Impact mechanic itself that needs a buff.

Edited April 26, 2016 by SortaRandom

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

Seems like relatively good idea Anze

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

You know that there will always be somebody to simply call it "too OP" or "broken" because he does not like this particular warframe (or it could be superior to his favourite one) and he will not listen to the arguments. That is the reason why many frames get nerfs.

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

Because here, we have a discussion rather than angry rant of nerf army.

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

Well, good for us then :) We can focus on the main topic without worrying about them.

[Zarozian]

21 hours ago, TheHUNKMrDeath said:

At the moment he is better, than he used to be, but he needs those changes, however he won't get any soon, because DE focuses on other frames now.

Really?

He still feels the same. e .e

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

You can not deny armor affecting IS is really sweet, and RS with IS on sends enemies into an orbit, however he NEEDS some love in any other department stated earlier.

[magusat999]

6 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

yeah for some reason those guys dont like to post on megathreads set by devs

I noticed the whole different atmosphere depending on who posted the thread. Shows that this toxic people KNOW they are being toxic when they know to avoid threads like this where the Dev is more likely to pay attention.

I'm not sure what to make of this, Rhino used to be my fav - cuz I like wrecking house. But then they touched his Iron Skin, like a bad little boy - they had matces and toy soldiers and couldn't HELP but burn something... And took all of Rhino's "mojo" - or as Austin Powers would say "mew-joew" away. Its been a while, but I'd like to use Rhino again - but only if he is the raging Hulk of Warframe rushing headlong into danger that would kill other frames - cuz he's got dat skin to win... We'll see.

[Zarozian]

1 hour ago, magusat999 said:

I noticed the whole different atmosphere depending on who posted the thread. Shows that this toxic people KNOW they are being toxic when they know to avoid threads like this where the Dev is more likely to pay attention.

I'm not sure what to make of this, Rhino used to be my fav - cuz I like wrecking house. But then they touched his Iron Skin, like a bad little boy - they had matces and toy soldiers and couldn't HELP but burn something... And took all of Rhino's "mojo" - or as Austin Powers would say "mew-joew" away. Its been a while, but I'd like to use Rhino again - but only if he is the raging Hulk of Warframe rushing headlong into danger that would kill other frames - cuz he's got dat skin to win... We'll see.

WE SHALL SEE!!!

 

[Zarozian]

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

The question is when we will see it.

DE! WHEN?! D:

[shut]

14 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

Ah so you are one of those melee fans. ... Well not all of us are.

I know that. But the reloading-during-landing thing aside, it doesn't really affect my argument that much. It's not like you'll magically stop bumping into enemies if you've got a gun equipped (even if it does happen less frequently depending on gun choice).

14 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

First of, i dont go just melee very often but when i do i really dont have that problem. Second, "Maneuvering around" its maneuvering trough or above actually, who goes around? You can just bulletjump+glide+roll+your-so-beloved-slam towards your priority target. And belive me its faster than running, especially if you have rhino lol. And again if you just rhino charge trough, even if you hit that priority target, you have your path cleared to it, and everyone is also knocked down for cherry on top.

I just want to whack that one blocked-off priority target that's two or three metres in front of me. "Bulletjump+glide+roll+my-so-beloved-slam" would could be needlessly (and, on occasion, dangerously) long and tedious to do for such a simple task; and while Charging into it would certainly be the safer option in most cases, it's also way, way more time-consuming. I mean, you send the guy flying, you chase him down and shoot/whack it to death, then you turn around and realize that the dense crowd that you could have easily dealt with afterwards has been scattered all over the place as well.

It's not like it'll kill you in high-leveled missions or anything, but it's quite tedious to deal with. Being able to simply press W to get the job done quickly and cleanly would be a nice convenience here.

14 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

Hahahaha xD. Like i said, you must be a master. And this is bulletjumping so this passive wouldnt work in this case because its for running.

...

"...any sort of movement whatsoever" hm, could have said that before, your original idea was only when running. So even when walking? That would seem just wierd.

I should have clarified from the start; I meant for it to apply to all movement, not just sprinting or something. My idea was that colliding with an enemy will never be able to obstruct your movement, at all, period. Makes sense considering how heavy Rhino is by concept.

(And now I understand what you meant when you said "bulletjumping isn't running and that's why it wouldn't work" and such regarding dodging explosions. xD)

14 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

You said rhino is godawful at doing this stuff, but who are you comparing him to so hes seems godawful at this stuff? All frames are exacly same at this stuff.

That's not what I said. I said that Charge is terrible at doing this stuff; not the Rhino warframe itself.

14 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

I do but if you really want to get out of some crowded situation then you should use bulletjump+glide+roll, not just roll. Much higer chance of escaping that explosion and no one will get in your way.

Bulletjumping in the air and rolling over everyone's heads tends to be pretty slow. I've found that it's great for getting away from crowds of trash mobs, but not so great for dodging explosives unless I see them coming from a mile away. And even that would be pushing it with Bombard rockets, with the homing and the gigantic cover-ignoring AoE and what not.

Rolling produces easy, reliable results while letting you play more aggressively (i.e. you don't have to spend forever setting up the dodge like you would with the bulletjump+aim+roll combo; so you can spend more time attacking before starting the dodge). My suggestion simply makes the rolling even more reliable when, well, obstructed by trash mobs.

14 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

When you say "etc." it means there are more examples, but i am not sure thats the case here.

Do you expect me to list off every possible application of "enemies don't block your movement" that could ever possibly happen or something? Those were just examples off the top of my head.

"Bulletjump+doublejump+roll+aimglide combo through thick crowds of enemies that you don't feel like fighting" (i.e. speeding through hallways without draining energy) is another example off the top of my head.

14 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

I said kinda covered, not completly of course, and no they are not so wildly different. Whenever i want enemies to get the hell out of my way i use rhino charge, i asume this passive has same purpose only in smaller form

...

In bigger scale they kinda do with charge being clearly superior, in shorter scale basic maneuvers do the job better too (actually in bigger scale too).

The point of my suggestion is to conveniently move right by enemies unobstructed, sometimes for fine-tuning your position and sometimes to just get from point A to point B without issue. When you get past the "heavy-guy-pushes-weaklings-away" concept, it's frankly more similar to Ash's Teleport than it is to Rhino Charge in terms of actual ingame application.

Again, it's "move past those guys in front of you" versus "launch yourself across the map and send your clumped-up targets flying all over the place while draining your energy". You don't use a chainsaw to do a steak knife's job.

14 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

Once enemies reach lv100 even those short moments cant be fatal.

I groundslam regularly on level 100 missions, and I can say with confidence that you're overestimating how long it takes to do a ground slam on most weapons. By the time the enemies aim their guns at you after you plummet from the sky like that, your animation will already be complete and you'll be ready to roll out of the way. (This is especially true against Sniper units. It's only especially untrue for units like Techs and Seekers, which can down you in one or two bullets and can aim stupidly fast.)

(And yes, I'm aware that you can slide to cancel heavy landings, and yes, I'm aware that you cannot roll while locked in a groundslam animation. Tbh I'm a little offended that you really thought you needed to inform me of that.)

14 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

... Still rhino charge gets the job done five times better even if costs only 25 energy. You can always just bulletjump+glide+roll back if you wnt too far and you would still come to destination faster than with running. Not to mention just how vulnerable you are running trought crowd of high lv enemies.

I think you're severely overestimating the time it takes to run forward a couple steps.

Regarding that last bit, obviously you're not going to just hold W when surrounded by level 100 heavy gunners or something. I've found that bulletjumping forward, and groundslamming to cancel if I don't want to go very far, does the trick just fine (and safely, mind you); and my suggestion would allow this to work just as quickly and easily when there's a barricade of fodder units in your face.

14 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

Now when i say "improve" i dont meand just increase the radius, when i say "improve" i mean something like this (direct quote from my personal rhino rework topic):

 

"- Rhino no longer has just the heavy impact, he has improved heavy impact over the mods one (tho implimenting these changes into mod too would also nice).

- Range increased to 5m radius. Also equiping heavy impact mod would increase range for 1 meter per mods rank giving total of 11 meters at max rank.

- Now activates from any fall that is longer than double jumps hight. The trigger mechanic now actually works my calculating falling distance because as of now it seems to calculate falling air time or something similar which makes some mistakes when using melee slam attack and also in some other instances.

- Enemies are now being ... lets just call it ultraknocked down (this is something uniqe to rhinos abilities and his passive so i will just explain it this once): ultraknockdown greatly pushes enemies in the opposite direction of its source (enemy thats standing on ground should be pushed around 20m back if there is only linear flor behind and keeps very low elevation, does not get thrown higher in the air than average enemy units hight which is about 2m i would say. Of course it comes to differences in flying path if there are objects on the way or if there is grounds elevation change or if enemy is not notmaly standing on ground when gets hit.) Uppon hitting a surface, even if its just flor, the enemy gets stunned for 2s, stun prevents enemies from getting up and reopens them to melee ground finisher if they already recived one during same ragdoll state. If it hits another enemy then both get ragdolled to the ground and both recive stun. Stun should have a visual effect above enemies heads and it should be changed by frames energy color. I also thought about auto locking on not-ragdolled enemies withing 15 degree and 15m radius cone to increas chances of hiting another enemy but i think it could hard to put in code and not very smooth working.

- If triggered while having iron skin it will have its stun duration increased to 3s and range by +2m."

 

I am pretty sure this fixes all problems with passive we have now.

Hm... I'm kinda skeptical toward this. Just as you said that not everyone plays melee, remember that not everyone exclusively uses gunplay, either. Sending enemies flying out of my reach every time I drop from a platform is often the last thing I'd want to do.

I also feel as though this doesn't solve the "overlapping-role-with-groundslam" issue (if anything, it just reverses it and invalidates any need to groundslam after long drops) or the "nobody-uses-Heavy-Impact" issue. I mean, the decreased height requirement sounds great all-around, but I think it would better to have the ultra-knockback specific to HI (since it's optional and all) and not stuffed into a popular melee frame where it can't be turned off. And more changes from there would also be nice, namely regarding the overlapping roles of HI/passive and ground slams.

 

 

___

 

 

That was a lot more text than I expected, and oh my god that took me way longer to type out than I'd like to admit, so I think I'm going to duck out of the discussion after I post this.

I don't expect my gross jumbled wall of text to completely flip around your stance on the topic or anything like that (I'm well aware that you've got loads of knowledge and experience behind your posts). But I'd like to at least be able to convince you that my "nothing-can-obstruct-rhino" suggestion will have its uses for players (as opposed to being objectively outclassed by existing moves), and that Heavy Impact and groundslams' roles are overlapping too much for comfort right now. I know this from my knowledge and experience with Rhino and with the game in general.

If convincing you of these things isn't possible, then hopefully we can just agree to disagree and leave it at that. Have a good day, man XD

Edited April 27, 2016 by SortaRandom

[Zarozian]

Hey what about extending the absorption time from 3 seconds to 10 seconds?

That way it will be like the old Iron Skin...but better! O _O

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

The absorption problem is that it adds only flat HP to IS, in my opinion it should calculate resistance of IS. The idea of yours is good to, but be aware of "it's too OP" outbreak.

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

I told you XD
I will stick to my idea :P

[(PSN)Daikon177]

On Saturday, March 26, 2016 at 2:52 AM, AnzeBozic said:

THIS IS DA_HEFF_

 

Cant get rid of this quote. Maybe its just cuz im on my phone.

 Anyways i think it might be cool to have iron skins absorb mechanic work like inaros scarab armor but it could absorb incoming damage, agro all enemies within a decent radius and instead of draining health maybe shields? I would prefer energy though. just a thought.

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

I guess this topic is relatively dead :(

[(PSN)Mazendude]

i guess we said everything

 

[Zarozian]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Mazendude said:

i guess we said everything

 

I said that before Anze here said it.

[Zarozian]

7 minutes ago, AnzeBozic said:

Then i guess his point is triple proven.

Idk man....The stuff we came up with for Rhino wasn't as cool as the rework that Volt's going to get or what Excalibur got. =/

It feels lackluster....like Unairu.... ;<

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Can we just please accept the fact the rhino is lost to us? It's time to move on to the real tanks like chroma, wukong, inaros, and valkyr. The rhino we saw the the first warframe trailer that had Lt. Lech Krill is gone. He's been replaced by a cat, a Dragon, a monkey, and a mummy. Good luck understanding that logic.

[Zarozian]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Can we just please accept the fact the rhino is lost to us? It's time to move on to the real tanks like chroma, wukong, inaros, and valkyr. The rhino we saw the the first warframe trailer that had Lt. Lech Krill is gone. He's been replaced by a cat, a Dragon, a monkey, and a mummy. Good luck understanding that logic.

This person has a death wish saying that here^

[(PSN)Mazendude]

On 5/11/2016 at 8:24 AM, Zarozian said:

This person has a death wish saying that here^

The thing is, he's right

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Mazendude said:

The thing is, he's right

The thing is, if we abandon Rhino and "move on" our efforts to make a difference will vanish into abyss.