Rhino Changes Feedback [U18 Megathread]

[(PSN)Daikon177]

Ah if that is the case , I can throw away streamline and put in something else.

Yeah unless your using blind rage

[Qynchou]

Rhino Changes are nice but could be alot better especially Iron Skin....

I ran With Rhino in A Shortie Yesterday & granted I didn't die I was very disappointed to see the HP ticker still depletes Iron Skin way to fast like before the update.

The thing is DE you guys mentioned it would work just like Frost snow globe & atlas Tentonics

But those 2 abilities last twice as long & are more effective then iron skin..

Rhino is supposed to be a tank even u guys admitted he's a tank frame but he doesn't work like one.

In the view stats with mods section I'm only getting 8k farriet Armor with all power str + armor mods

Yet I see people who get there's up to 14 k to 20k I'm not sure how there doing that but if I could get it there then Rhino would work as intended & he would finally be on part with frost & atlas

That said iron skin doesn't work like u guys said & the fact is it won't work until u give it the same health as Frost snow globe & at last Tentonics & able to last as long in high missions

That's the way it should work only then will it be perfect DE can you plz fix this to work as intended

It's better 4 sure but not quite there & clearly not as advertised like u said

A 4k farrairt armor increase with mods is not really much of an upgrade.

I know u guys are looking at feedback & I hope u consider making him work as advertised thx de happy holidays

Use ironclad charge mod.

 

People are saying that you shouldnt need augments for the frame to be good, thats simply not true. Without augments rhino can easily tank up to lv50, using ironclad puts him over lv90.

 

The underwhelming augments rhino has right now are piercing roar and iron shrapnel.

 

It blows my mind that some of you actually complain about augments bringing synergy and you have the audacity to say that a frame should be able to tank lv90 enemies with baseline mods. Dont be ridiculous.

 

edit:

Some people are saying roar is useless now, yeah, doubling your damage is definitely useless, jesus...

To me it looks like only Gelkor knows that rhino is a beast now and the only changes he needs is QoL.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Qynchou

[TheVigilant]

i would add another change to Iron Skin to make it even more useful Tank and Team wise:

 

Make Iron Skin draw Enemy aggro like Saryn Molt, that will help him to accumulate Iron Skin Health during the invincibility phase and with all enemies focusing him, allies will have a good breathe time, just like a tank should do.

Edited December 31, 2015 by TheVigilant

[Ronyn]

Use ironclad charge mod.

 

People are saying that you shouldnt need augments for the frame to be good, thats simply not true. Without augments rhino can easily tank up to lv50, using ironclad puts him over lv90.

Yes level 50, but end game is between 80 and 100.

So...Are you saying that frames should need augments to do their primary job at the level 90 range? It's fine if that is your view.

But personally I don't believe they should. I think augments should offer alternatives and options to take frames in new or more specialized directions. Where without augments a frame should be able to do their core job into end game. That is my take on them. 

 

It blows my mind that some of you actually complain about augments bringing synergy (that's not the complaint) and you have the audacity to say that a frame should be able to tank lv90 enemies with baseline mods.(yet valkyr, chroma, wukong & trinity can)  Dont be ridiculous.

Good grief dude. What makes you think your opinion about how augments should factor in so much more reasonable than other peoples? 

Did DE announce somewhere exactly where augments are supposed to be required for a frames main job? 

Do you even factor in the fact that it's inconsistent among frames? Some rely on augments to remain viable even into mid to high levels, some don't require them at all to stay very strong, some gain whole new uses with augments, some get ridiculously strong with certain augments. So it's not like there is a hard rule to how this currently works in the game. We are all just trying to nail down how we think it should work.

Remember that you're just another person with another viewpoint. Drop the attitude about this already.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Ronyn

[(PSN)LegionOfZoom1410]

Ohmfg that 33k armor is epic I have the Aug mod on like u said & it still doesn't go past 9k

may I get the mod setup u are using because I believe the ui may be bugged or I may need to forma him again for it to update

So wtf beside the Aug mod are u using I've tried everything I'd love to see the setup plz help thx

Use ironclad charge mod.

People are saying that you shouldnt need augments for the frame to be good, thats simply not true. Without augments rhino can easily tank up to lv50, using ironclad puts him over lv90.

The underwhelming augments rhino has right now are piercing roar and iron shrapnel.

It blows my mind that some of you actually complain about augments bringing synergy and you have the audacity to say that a frame should be able to tank lv90 enemies with baseline mods. Dont be ridiculous.

edit:

Some people are saying roar is useless now, yeah, doubling your damage is definitely useless, jesus...

To me it looks like only Gelkor knows that rhino is a beast now and the only changes he needs is QoL.

[Qynchou]

Yes level 50, but end game is between 80 and 100.

So...Are you saying that frames should need augments to do their primary job at the level 90 range? It's fine if that is your view.

But personally I don't believe they should. I think augments should offer alternatives and options to take frames in new or more specialized directions. Where without augments a frame should be able to do their core job into end game. That is my take on them. 

 

Good grief dude. What makes you think your opinion about how augments should factor in so much more reasonable than other peoples? 

Did DE announce somewhere exactly where augments are supposed to be required for a frames main job? 

Do you even factor in the fact that it's inconsistent among frames? Some rely on augments to remain viable even into mid to high levels, some don't require them at all to stay very strong, some gain whole new uses with augments, some get ridiculously strong with certain augments. So it's not like there is a hard rule to how this currently works in the game. We are all just trying to nail down how we think it should work.

Remember that you're just another person with another viewpoint. Drop the attitude about this already.

Well, you said it yourself then, at least for this specific point of argument that augments give frames various viability so it goes both ways, who is to say this isnt the intended design for rhino? At this point only Scott can confirm/deny this himself.

 

Ohmfg that 33k armor is epic I have the Aug mod on like u said & it still doesn't go past 9k

may I get the mod setup u are using because I believe the ui may be bugged or I may need to forma him again for it to update

So wtf beside the Aug mod are u using I've tried everything I'd love to see the setup plz help thx

[Ronyn]

Well, you said it yourself then, at least for this specific point of argument that augments give frames various viability so it goes both ways, who is to say this isnt the intended design for rhino? At this point only Scott can confirm/deny this himself.

Once again, without a dev statement to go buy it is fine to have either point of view.

The problem is when you call someones opinion "ridiculous" and "audacity" as if yours is better.

 

Consider this. Should trinity need an augment to be an effective healer at end game?

If not, why should rhino need an augment to be an effective tank at end game?

In case you're unaware the devs did confirm that rhino is meant to be a tank.

[Qynchou]

Once again, without a dev statement to go buy it is fine to have either point of view.

The problem is when you call someones opinion "ridiculous" and "audacity" as if yours is better.

 

Consider this. Should trinity need an augment to be an effective healer at end game?

If not, why should rhino need an augment to be an effective tank at end game?

In case you're unaware the devs did confirm that rhino is meant to be a tank.

I think you fail to understand that people are going to disagree with you on the internet, youre being oversensitive. Well good to know that "audacity" and "ridiculous" and incredibly triggering words, its okay bud, I'll make sure to issue a nice trigger warning before using those words next time.

[Ronyn]

I think you fail to understand that people are going to disagree with you on the internet,

In my last two posts I literally stated that different viewpoints (disagreement) is fine.....

as for the rest of your post. sigh. ...

 

If you'd like to actually talk about the subject matter I'll continue, otherwise I'm moving on to useful conversation.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Ronyn

[Nulak]

I have real doubt the game dmg calculation on IronSkin work as intended right now and/or adding more health to IronSkin really matter unless you go from 5k to 30k and that impossible without ironclad mod. Problem Ironclad duration is a joke and suffer even more for the lack of duration in almost all good str rhino build. 

 

DE should just re-check dmg calculation on IronSkin. What i mean here  is:  how the skill should absorb dmg based on the level of the target who hit him.

Right now Iron Skin sill takes dmg from very low target, yeah it last way longer on low lv target, but it shouldnt works like that. With a fully optimized rhino build, i shouldn't have to recast IS when 15 lv 10 mobs shooting at me. There should be a cap based on target level AND ironskin health. (%armor)

 

This cap do not exist right now, thats why even at 5k armor you actually see the armor disappear really fast when surrounded by S#&$ty mobs. Boost the cap to 7k and you almost don't see a difference with the same low level mobs. 

Each new armor "cap" should be handle by the game dmg calculation to reward the rhino. 

 

Example: at 5k armor lv 15 target can't really dmg your skin.

                at 5k armor lv 25 target can damage ur skin for 1.5% for each hit 

                at 7k armor lv 25 target can damage ur skin for 0.95% for each hit 

                at 30k armor lv 25 target can't damage ur skin

 

Of course its 100% example i don't ask for this value or anything but i really thing DE should re-think the way the IronSkin %armor value react to dmg in the game. Right now it feels like boosting %armor without Ironclad have zero effect. And IronClad feel like a cockblock mod. Duration is way too low and force you to do one build. And only one not 2.

[Khrushprush]

Also, the double damage from charge when enemies are stomp stunned doesn't sound like anything that I would ever use to any practical level.

 

THAT.... :(

[Nulak]

Does DE is aware of that : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/571430-iron-skin-bug-u18/

 

Because they should. And all Rhino must be aware of this bug too. I heard it also happens to other frames.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Nulak

[TheBrsrkr]

Came back to say that the passive is just.... Bad. It barely knocks down anything, doesn't do damage worth a damn and you have to go out of your way to use it in the first place. How would I fix it? Hmm...

Well, you could triple the range at this point and it wouldn't be OP. It doesn't really need to do any damage. Having it trigger on ground slams would be an excellent addition too.

[lookindown]

SITLL No Fix for Rhino........

[Nulak]

Lets see if its fixed with today hotfix.

[dodyouserious]

Lets see if its fixed with today hotfix.

nop

[NogginMasher]

Putting this here so DE will read it, hopefully. It's taken directly from my other post, https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/590732-iron-skin-total-rework-make-rhino-the-tank-he-was-born-to-be/

To keep iron skin viable into later content without making early content trivial, iron skin needs to scale with enemy level effectively. Attaching the enemy level scaling equation directly to iron skin would be a little clunky, need to account for different enemy types and their unique base levels, and terribly confusing to new players. A simpler system I propose is factoring enemy damage directly into iron skin in a similar method as to what we have now. Rewording that cryptic sentence, I say split Iron Skin into two phases, a charge phase and an active phase.

Charge Phase (read this, it's important)

Currently, iron skin absorbs enemy damage in the first three seconds of activating the ability, and adds the damage absorbed to iron skin. This is very useful in theory, but pitiful in practice. Let's make that a lot more important.

Upon activating Iron Skin, Rhino enters a charge phase. While in this charge phase, Rhino walks around slowly, immune to all damage, and unable to deal damage himself. Rhino taunts the enemy, making all enemies in the room attack him with maximum ferocity. Rhino will draw all the aggro, enemies will stop shooting team mates, critical objectives, and stop wandering around aimlessly. Rhino will fire his gun in the air, dealing no damage and consuming no ammunition. If enemies are in melee range of Rhino, Rhino will kick, punch, shove or otherwise knock the enemy back 5 meters, dealing no damage, all in an effort to enrage the enemy and draw aggro.

While the enemy is incredibly angry with Rhino in particular, all damage dealt to Rhino is stored in the charged phase to be used in the active phase. Incoming enemy damage is absorbed and multiplied by 1.5*Power Strength*Armor, (actual values subject to change). Energy is consumed during the charge phase using the toggle ability mechanic, 15 energy to activate, 15 energy per second during the charge phase. Energy cost is affected by the usual efficiency and duration stats that other toggles are affected by. Rhino cannot restore energy from energy plates or EV trin, but can wander over and pick up energy orbs (remember, Rhino can't kill anyone during the charge phase). While Charge Phase is active, Rhino can accumulate a total of 50 000 damage, after multiplication by power strength and armor (this will determine iron skin health).

Active phase (works similar to what we have now, plus some new features)

After accumulating enemy damage during the charge phase, Rhino deactivates the charge phase to enter the active phase. Stored damage is added to Iron skin health, with a minimum 1 000 iron skin health (affected by power strength and/or armor). Enemies still hate Rhino, but aggro can be drawn else where, such as Valkyr ripping lancers and butchers to shreds or the big shiny ancient cryopod in the center of the room. In the active phase, Iron Skin behaves almost as what we have now, but with some slight tweaks. For every 1 000 iron skin health, Rhino's speed, aim glide, bullet jump and wall latch time is multiplicatively reduced by 1%. At 40 000 iron skin health, Rhino cannot roll. At 50 000 iron skin health, Rhino cannot bullet jump or wall latch. While iron skin is active, allies and objectives in a 15 m radius (affected by range) gain 50% damage resistance affected by power strength, but each ally is still capped at 95% damage resistance, so Shatter Shield Mesa cannot become essentially invincible.

Edited January 6, 2016 by NogginMasher

[Nova_Erk]

Charge into battle and stomp enemy hope with Rhino’s new ability changes:

• Rhino has been given a passive: Heavy Impact!

• Rhino Charge has received the following changes:

8]• Rhino Charge can now gore enemies caught in his path!

8]• Rhino Charge now has a re-cast combo counter (mechanically identical to Valkyr's Ripline and Atlas' Landslide).

8]• Duration mods no longer affect Rhino's Charge.

8]• Range mods will now affect Rhino Charge's distance.

8]• Rhino Charge’s distance is now based on his melee combo meter..

8]• Rhino Charge will now result in a Blast proc on targets if Iron Skin is active while Charging.

8]• Rhino Charge will deal double damage against targets affected by Rhino Stomp.

• Iron Skin has received the following changes:

8]• Iron Skin has damage absorb period at beginning and is affected by armour, like Snow Globe and

8] Tectonics.

8]• Rhino Stomp has received the following changes:

8]• Fixed 'double getup' when enemies affected by Rhino Stomp get ragdolled.

8]• Rhino Stomp is recastable now and picks up new enemies in range.

I have a question.

Is iron skin naturally absorbing more damage than a Single globe?

The ferrit health is not so high but the globe of a Single ones Has more health. There is the Name of no health it is ferrite armor! So is There a difference for absorbing damage and if Yes what is the formula how much damage can the irom skin absorb? How much more absorbs the iron skin in comparision of a globe with more health?

I havent found any threads to this and I was interested for this Theme

Thx for a Quick answer. Looking for it ^^

[Qynchou]

@Noggin Sounds very complicated for such a simple ability that you will use quite often. Dont really understand the reasoning behind making such a "charade" out of iron skin. If you want taunt, why not extend absorb duration to 4 seconds and force all enemies within x meters attack you for those 4 seconds?

[NogginMasher]

I figured a tank should be able to take the hits and the aggro away from the squishy frames. It seems unpopular to some, as there really aren't too many exceptionally squishy frames in the game. With so much CC abilities and damage dealing frames that can soak up a few hits no problem (Ash P, Mesa, Wukong), tanks are less useful in this game. Why have one guy soak up all the damage when it is easier to CC or kill all the enemies?

Maybe true tanks just don't fit.

Edited January 10, 2016 by NogginMasher

[Nagisawa]

I agree with buffing his base armour to at least 700.

 

But maybe scale Impact and Charge with Armour instead?

[NogginMasher]

I agree with buffing his base armour to at least 700.

 

But maybe scale Impact and Charge with Armour instead?

Woah, 700? At least?

Isn't that really, really high?

700 armor

Add mods steel fiber and armored agility

~1750 armor

Ironclad buff by smacking three dudes

~6860 armor

Toss in intensify and trans fort

Then activate iron skin.

Get 32000 iron skin health.

That's awfully powerful, basically invincible in anything sub level 50. Cheap invincibility with no drawbacks is never a good idea. Sure it's cool, but it takes all the fun out of the game. Running around where the enemy poses no threat to you whatsoever sort of negates the purpose of the enemy. Why shoot the enemy if they can't kill you? If you aren't playing exterminate, survival or some defense type mission, all the enemies in the game turn into loot/xp pinatas.

I'm all for making iron skin stronger, but not too powerful. Making something that scales effectively is a wonderful idea. Making iron skin turn into god mode for any mission that isn't a sortie is a bad idea. Having damage resistance, or minimum/maximum damage thresholds, or buffing damage absorb periods could all work. Just turning the numbers way up would kinda be like cheating, fun for a while, then boring.

[(PSN)Daikon177]

Woah, 700? At least?

Isn't that really, really high?

700 armor

Add mods steel fiber and armored agility

~1750 armor

Ironclad buff by smacking three dudes

~6860 armor

Toss in intensify and trans fort

Then activate iron skin.

Get 32000 iron skin health.

That's awfully powerful, basically invincible in anything sub level 50. Cheap invincibility with no drawbacks is never a good idea. Sure it's cool, but it takes all the fun out of the game. Running around where the enemy poses no threat to you whatsoever sort of negates the purpose of the enemy. Why shoot the enemy if they can't kill you? If you aren't playing exterminate, survival or some defense type mission, all the enemies in the game turn into loot/xp pinatas.

I'm all for making iron skin stronger, but not too powerful. Making something that scales effectively is a wonderful idea. Making iron skin turn into god mode for any mission that isn't a sortie is a bad idea. Having damage resistance, or minimum/maximum damage thresholds, or buffing damage absorb periods could all work. Just turning the numbers way up would kinda be like cheating, fun for a while, then boring.

I would agree with you but when you got unkillable frames like valk trinity and chroma it makes us rhino players a little jealous. 700 does seem like a bit much, id be happy with 400 er so. I think hes in an ok place but he needs work still to be able to compete with these other tank frames.

A big reason id like more armor is when IS pops you still have some survivability and have a chance to reactivate IS before you die. They could nerf the base health of IS but bring his armor up a good bit to where it evened out. Being able to recast IS is a needed change too (dont say iron shrapnel) and i think the 3 seconds of invincibility/Absorb should be at the last 1% of IS heath incase you get in a bad situation you have a little time to get to saftey and recast IS. But thats just how i feel.

[Ronyn]

I'm not promoting 700 armor but...

 

I would agree with you but when you got unkillable frames like valk trinity and chroma it makes us rhino players a little jealous. 

not just jealous but feeling straight up cheated. lol

 

That's awfully powerful, basically invincible in anything sub level 50. 

With the games current scaling and need to fight enemies in the level 80 to 100 range....

any defensive set up that allows one to effectively tank end game is going to make one near invulnerable at the low to mid range.

of course, if this were any other mmo or rpg no one would take take a maxed gear toon to earlier game content and expect it to balance.

 

 

A big reason id like more armor is when IS pops you still have some survivability and have a chance to reactivate IS before you die. They could nerf the base health of IS but bring his armor up a good bit to where it evened out. Being able to recast IS is a needed change too (dont say iron shrapnel) and i think the 3 seconds of invincibility/Absorb should be at the last 1% of IS heath incase you get in a bad situation you have a little time to get to saftey and recast IS. But thats just how i feel.

I agree with most of this. But I do not see why DE should lower iron skins base health just to give rhino more armor. 

 

 And IS is already that complete cheap godmode till lv 25 without moding and base hp is responsible for that.

Rhino isn't unique in that regard..Early game is just kind of like that.

Defense powers make you near unkillable and offensive powers kill almost everything outright.

[Ronyn]

But its easiest to abuse in that way since you really dont need to mod on IS for that and you are just a press of a button away from it for pretty much whole mission at those levels plus a cc imunity as a cherry on top. Where else do you think noob frame expression comes from?

Sure the expression "noob frame" partly comes from how easy is it is to understand how to cheese with rhino. 

But he isn't actually more powerful at that stage in the game than many other frames who can also either survive or kill unmodded, rhino is just super easy to understand for new players. But do we hold back a frames potential capability because folks can pick up on it faster? 

 

Rhino is also largely called a noob frame because he is found on an early planet from an easy boss so there isn't much barrier to get him. Where some other frames make early game even easier but are harder to acquire.

Like Chroma who can walk through early levels killing things that shoot him just by having electric ward active.

Or Equinox who can kill enemies just by being in their vicinity with maim active. 

Or loki who can turn invisible and waltz around not even being shot at. etc.

 

The thing is though....according to Scott all frames are meant to be effectively equal in power only different in play style. 

So we can't base how strong a frame should be based on how easy they are to acquire or hard they are to learn.

At the end of the day rhino is just another one of the many frames who can trivialize the early game. He gets singled out a lot...but it's silly. Or rather it's hypocritical.

The REAL problem is how the games scaling works. That is what needs to be addressed if we are to really fix relative balance..

but that is for another thread. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by Ronyn