Why I Dislike The New Quest/tenno Thing (Spoilers)

[Rexlars]

The Orokin civilization is dead, Alad himself says this. The Corpus are a "spin-off" of the Orokin.

 

I think Hunhow calls Alad "Orokin" because he was sort of dead back then and he hasn't fully caught up with the news.

 

Not all of it. As we can see, the Tenno are still alive & one of the Synthesis bio's gave us info about Darvo's dad surviving & other Corpus escaping as well. Even Darvo himself was alive during that time period. The Orokin way of life is dead, yea, but not all Orokin are gone. Just the Orokin that are of the same caste of the ones that created us, for example. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by Rexlars

[(PSN)Lowk721]

At this point its clear "Lotus" doesnt do anything until some one else pushes the issue.

Typically parent

"I'll tell you when you're older"

Edited December 16, 2015 by (PS4)Lowk721

[Rivy]

Not all of it. As we can see, the Tenno are still alive & one of the Synthesis bio's gave us info about Darvo's dad surviving & other Corpus escaping as well. Even Darvo himself was alive during that time period. The Orokin way of life is dead, yea, but not all Orokin are gone. Just the Orokin that are of the same caste of the ones that created us, for example. 

Well, their society, culture and way of life are their civilization. Some individuals surviving doesn't mean "The Orokin" (as a whole) didn't get destroyed.

But this is more of a semantics discussion -_-

 

(also, are you sure Frohd Bek was there ? I think it's implied it was millenia ago and that nobody who was alive back then remains.... otherwise he'd know what the Tenno are. Do you have any links ? Wiki says nothing.)

Edited December 16, 2015 by Rivy

[UrielColtan]

Orokin were not aliens  something, all the people you see now are human descendents of Orokin. Orokin was a nationality, not a race. The nation is long gone, so they don't use that title anymore.

Hunhow still remembers Corpus lineage though so he still uses it.

 

Alad V doesn't seem to have all the intel. We know from synthesis that it was a combination of Grineer rebllion and infested outbreak tah are implicated in wiping out the civilization. Tenno seem to have merely made it easier when they killed the emperors.

 

There is no confirmation of the Moa synthesis being Darvo and his Dad. Darvo is only 100+ years old, it seems this synthesis is from just a few after the fall of the Orokin empire. Though I guess the kid could be Darvo, or even Frohd Bek or even Alad, we aren't quite clear how old they really are.

Edited December 16, 2015 by UrielColtan

[EmptyDevil]

So you're saying he found it AFTER that? Well why couldn't he just lead Hunhow there himself, I mean it seems pretty well presented that Lotus was quick about hiding the moon in the Void after the fall of the Orokin, for Stalker to have been there before but not be able to find his way back he'd have to have ventured to it before Lotus hid it.

 

The way the quest puts it makes it seem like he physically went into the place, "the secrets within drove him mad", not "the secrets he learned about it".

 

He had to have learned of it after the empire fell. Hunhow was the one leading him to it by tapping into Lotus' mind. Stalker'd have spent his time tracking the place down to hunt the Tenno if he had been there. Did you forget the intro? "Someone has hidden the Tenno essence from you, their truth, from you." "I know where she hides the Tenno heart. A womb in the sky, forbidden to my kind, but where you will take me."

 

Is there a point in arguing the semantics of the dialog? I could do the same thing you just did. It said "But the secret is dangerous, it drove the Stalker to madness", not "But the secret is dangerous, when he found it, the Stalker was driven to madness". 

 

 

the orokin are dead ? why is calling hunhow alad v a orokin in the quest, and not only one time ?

 

there are some possibillities for a close to "neverending-story" ... ^^)

 

I facepalmed so hard at this reply. Keep up with the conversation if you're going to reply.

[UrielColtan]

Quote please. I've been here since the beginning of open beta and I've never heard the Lotus refer to the cryo-pods in defense missions as Tenno.

 

I also doubt that anything inside the pods has changed since the window frosting, but I'll check that myself tonight.

 

I've been here just as long.

 

The pods are labeled as Warframe Cryopods, Lotus refers to Warframe Cryopods as Tenno.

 

"Sergeant Nef Anyo oversees operations of the Solar Rails in this district. Intelligence reports indicate that Anyo has been using the rails to acquire recovered cryo-pods containing dormant Warframes. Kill him and save your fellow Tenno."

 

Pretty sure I didn't say that anything changed since the frosted window either.

Edited December 16, 2015 by UrielColtan

[aoguro]

Not all of it. As we can see, the Tenno are still alive & one of the Synthesis bio's gave us info about Darvo's dad surviving & other Corpus escaping as well. Even Darvo himself was alive during that time period. The Orokin way of life is dead, yea, but not all Orokin are gone. Just the Orokin that are of the same caste of the ones that created us, for example. 

 

and as i can remember the devs asked us if we wanna have civilians in the game

 

also the different syndicates, is there any clear lore about ? the origin of them ?

as well as having civilians in the game right now would be strange, there is no "architecture" anywhere on whatever map for ...

as well as i leave that in the hands of DE ... i think they know best to bring the puzlle together ^^)

[--Q--uaint]

Can you use your focus powers inside of a nullifier bubble?

Because if you tell me that the corpus found a way to neutralize the Tenno before the Sentients....

 

You can wander inside the bubble and it won't shut your power down, but you can't affect anything inside. So you'll be sitting there e.g. lazoring and not doing any damage.

[Mak_Gohae]

What are you blabbing about? Are you still trying to find some excuse for your Lotus-is-evil obsession?

 

She didnt wake tenno up until Grineer and Corpus started digging up the drones.

She didnt tell us she was a Sentient until the Grineer opened up that tomb.

She didnt wake the tenno up until her pops came in knocking.

 

She doesnt do anything until she gets pushed.

That's the stories that we have gotten from DE.

[EmptyDevil]

She didnt wake tenno up until Grineer and Corpus started digging up the drones.

She didnt tell us she was a Sentient until the Grineer opened up that tomb.

She didnt wake the tenno up until her pops came in knocking.

 

She doesnt do anything until she gets pushed.

That's the stories that we have gotten from DE.

 

[AdachiAme]

Why do people always forget that moment when the Warframe pulled the sword out of itself?

 

 

It's not just a puppet clearly  

I also have an add on to this, the current Warframes are often called puppets on strings, but have developed individual "Ghosts" as it were in a limited sense. Hints to this that moment in between pod transference  the operator needed to be in direct contact with the frame to control it.  Near the end, it was the Frame that broke War on their own, not being controlled by the operator. Thus the term Ghost in the Shell.  Or in otherwords the Frames may contain a soul of their own, could also explain the Stalker in a more extreme case.

[UrielColtan]

I'm so glad that my Warframe shows less personality and sentience in a cutscene(where people merely assume it acted on its own in), than the mere ingame idle animations.

Really makes me care about their being alive, when they need to be puppeted to do anything warranting any semblance of behavior belonging to a sentient being, regardless. The slave implications from being an autonomous body manipulated by the Tenno, are especially gnarly.

-_-

This is another reason why I just wanted a suit.

Edited December 18, 2015 by UrielColtan

[AdachiAme]

I'm so glad that my Warframe shows less personality and sentience in a cutscene(where people merely assume it acted on its own in), than the mere ingame idle animations.

Really makes me care about their being alive, when they need to be puppeted to do anything warranting any semblance of behavior belonging to a sentient being, regardless. The slave implications from being an autonomous body manipulated by the Tenno, are especially gnarly.

-_-

This is another reason why I just wanted a suit.

That is your belief, not mine, I find my theory facinating personally.  Like I said a "Ghost" does not outright mean sentience.  You completely glossed over what I meant. 

[ViolentSweed]

I dislike it aswell. It's taking away the mystery, all those personalities I developed for the frames that I became attached too. The game is VERY hard to play now for me, I'm not gonna leave the game, but it is really impacting how often i'll play it for sure, maybe a single mission then i'll just go. eh it's not the same.

 

You disregarded all the lore that was there before, why can't you do it now? All this lore was in the game already, but because it's now in a quest it's too much to handle? Live in your little bubble with your pretendlore if that's what makes you happy. Never press 5, don't use the lenses, disable the operator narrating in missions in the options and never travel past your arsenal.

[Rhekemi]

I get where you're coming from, and have mixed feelings. I am overly positive about the Second Dream though.

 

At first, I was intrigued, but wasn't setting myself up for the hype and let down cycle.

 

I played the whole quest solo (not on purpose), and it was great. Loved the music, the level design, the story, the feeling that a journey had ended, and a new one began. 

 

DE did a great job on giving our first journey/story arc as Tenno an ending, and our lives in the game definition, form identity.

 

The disappointment and bit of a let down was when the mask came off and I, the Tenno, am an ancient wonder-child. It makes perfect sense with all the story hints and existing lore, but my initial reaction was to laugh from the shock, turn off the screen, and get up to use the moment for a short break before I designed my Tenno. (That initial default Tenno face didn't help. It just made me laugh really hard for reasons.)

 

I can't say it was the most exciting part in an immersive quest (customizing the Tenno). The high point was the entire reservoir sequence, and the liset battle. I mean come on, the warframe I'd controlled for so long fought side by side with me as the operator (no idea how DE tops that as a cinematic quest, but I look forward to them trying). 

 

So, yeah, I empathize with you that losing that sense of mystery, and the ability to fill in whatever we wanted as the answers is tangible.

 

That said, the answers make perfect sense and in time, we'll all get used to it, and DE will continue to build on it. As a story, yeah, it really does work. 

 

But as it's an interactive story that we have to accept in order to continue progressing in the game, it will take getting used to.

 

If we can't get used to it, we can stop playing the game, too. It's our choice. If the new content is too much hassle, we can also stop playing. There's actually nothing wrong with that, and no one should feel bad about it. If we feel better about it later, we can log back in and have fun again.

 

For me, I'm still trying to get the hang of the new Focus system. It's cool, but doesn't feel intuitive yet to me because it just wasn't a part of my old kit. (My weapons I've already maxed hit with power I can feel. They handle well. I'm used to them. They're an extension of me. This new power, though it is an extension of me/the operator, doesn't feel right yet. Handles weird.)

 

As for the operator...when the operator says things in-game it's still a bit weird. (No, I'm not turning off his audio. Never turned off Ordis, even when he was annoying.)

 

Operator asks where the long elevator ride on Draco goes...and my gut reaction, not my logical one, is uh...lol, what? I/you/we know where this goes, boy, stop playin'.

 

Logical answer is warframe's can't see, and the link between operator and 'frame means they navigate the world through something other than sight when using warframes...and now that he's awake and the link is stronger/the mental projection version of him is always with the warframe, he can see with a more traditional sense of sight. 

 

Makes sense. Still weird. Still takes some getting used to. Half the time, I'm like, who's mic is that? Then I see the image and I'm like, oh.

 

But to be honest, he sounds a little crazy when he randomly says the Grineer having no honor when we're on an Orokin Void tileset. I'm like...yes, okay...but...

 

Making scrap metal out of Corpus machines made enough sense. 

 

Grineer used to be builders is also a nice line.

 

Why does he say we'll be able to get an upperhand if we remain stealthy/don't alert enemies on Draco, though? I lol'd at that, too.

 

It's still weird, despite it making sense, and that's what the OP (and everyone else) is contending with, as I am. It will take getting used to for many of us. If we can't, we won't, but I suspect in time, we will.

 

The OP's first post is reaction, and that's human. But it's only the first step.

 

You gotta just let yourself as a listener/reader/viewer/gamer react to new stuff, digest it, understand it, and accept or reject it.

 

Sidenote: when will DE create lines of dialogue between the operator and Ordis? Shouldn't Ordis be overjoyed he actually has the operator to bug with all his quips, questions, and memories? That might be interesting conversation. I guess it will go into a later quest, though, since Ordis' history and memories have been hinted at several times.

 

Sidenote 2: The story plot-point of warrior/super-soldier children (either physically fighting, or piloting drones/armies/machines) is not new, no. But it is a reliable staple of science-fiction/science-fantasy in many works. I think DE's take on it is unique enough (and will have more time to set itself apart) from similar versions in fiction history. 

Edited December 18, 2015 by Rhekemi

[--GOOLOO_GOOLOO_GOOLOO--]

She didnt wake tenno up until Grineer and Corpus started digging up the drones.

She didnt tell us she was a Sentient until the Grineer opened up that tomb.

She didnt wake the tenno up until her pops came in knocking.

 

She doesnt do anything until she gets pushed.

That's the stories that we have gotten from DE.

 

 

You're right.

 

Down with Lotus!

 

Rise together with Triumvirate of Teshin and Stalker and Hunhow!

[AdachiAme]

Ghost in the shell refers to a mind going into an artificial body. Motoko is not inhabiting a body of its own consciouness, its a cybernetic body with no other consciouness but her own, still biological, brain. A warframe having its own consciouness, yet being manipulated by these children, is not the same situation, it is also undesireable to me.

Its just sugar coated slavery. They have to make the frames mentally invalid for it to even be somewhat presentable, thats why Eva's are wild or the Na'vi clones are literally braindead, without a host. Its so transparent in how pitiful a setup this is that I just don't care that their sentient vessel gets killed, its good that they get put out of its enslaved misery. So the Mirage or Limbo deaths lack any impact even if the frames are "alive".

But it is brought up that dolls who didn't have a human mind can form a Ghost as it were.  Moved this to the correct thread.  It is not slavery, it is a form of Symbiosis would be the correct term in a sense.  Think of the link connection as a sort of way to blur consciousness with will, the Frames have a Will, a characteristic, a personality to them that works with the Tenno's mind/presence to function.

 

EDIT: This also doesn't mean that Frames in the past weren't suits as it were, that would be entirely discrediting Hayden Tenno.  It just means the frames in the current era are more akin to Golems that have "Echos of a Ghost" in terms of being.

Edited December 18, 2015 by AdachiAme

[UrielColtan]

But it is brought up that dolls who didn't have a human mind can form a Ghost as it were.  Moved this to the correct thread.  It is not slavery, it is a form of Symbiosis would be the correct term in a sense.  Think of the link connection as a sort of way to blur consciousness with will, the Frames have a Will, a characteristic, a personality to them that works with the Tenno's mind/presence to function.

 

EDIT: This also doesn't mean that Frames in the past weren't suits as it were, that would be entirely discrediting Hayden Tenno.  It just means the frames in the current era are more akin to Golems that have "Echos of a Ghost" in terms of being.

 

Thats actually duplicated AI and not considered real Ghosts. Its also seen as a bad thing in that universe, being illegal. Anyway its not the point, a consciounceness taking over another living consciousness is slavery in my eyes.  Some fiction makes it folksy by making the slave mentally invalid or a pet. Like Tachikomas for the latter, but other works show the true robbery of freedom of it all. This entire idea is unsavory to me. No amount of trying to point out that the Frames are alive is making this setup pleasing to me.

Edited December 18, 2015 by UrielColtan

[AdachiAme]

Thats actually duplicated AI and not considered real Ghosts. Its also seen as a bad thing in that universe, being illegal. Anyway its not the point, a consciounceness taking over another living consciousness is slavery in my eyes.  Some fiction makes it folksy by making the slave mentally invalid or a pet. Like Tachikomas for the latter, but other works show the true robbery of freedom of it all. This entire idea is unsavory to me. No amount of trying to point out that the Frames are alive is making this setup pleasing to me.

Last part, I didn't say take over, I said work with, like synergy connection, the Tenno provides the Energy for the Frame to move. 

 

Alright, you have your way of seeing, and I have mine.  Let's call it here and say that we all decide to view it our own way.  I have mine, you have yours, I'm finished here.    I stated how I viewed it and have stated my view on the topic.  I'm not going to go into a philosophical discussion of the line between AI and the concept of the Soul, I doubt either of us have a degree in the field anyways.  I will merely state we must all respect the opinions of others and move on.

[N2-Power]

It is possible to return by creating a new account and avoiding the Second Dream quest in the future. Might be an extreme solution.

 

Let's just hope DE won't still force it down our throats.

[Rhekemi]

It is possible to return by creating a new account and avoiding the Second Dream quest in the future. Might be an extreme solution.

 

Let's just hope DE won't still force it down our throats.

 

Reverting your own progress and growth is extreme, but whatever works for you.

 

Taking a break from the game is less extreme, and might also be good for those still in shock/disappointed. You can always come back later.

 

What I hope is they'll continue to build on and improve it. It isn't going anywhere.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Rhekemi

[UrielColtan]

Last part, I didn't say take over, I said work with, like synergy connection, the Tenno provides the Energy for the Frame to move. 

 

Alright, you have your way of seeing, and I have mine.  Let's call it here and say that we all decide to view it our own way.  I have mine, you have yours, I'm finished here.    I stated how I viewed it and have stated my view on the topic.  I'm not going to go into a philosophical discussion of the line between AI and the concept of the Soul, I doubt either of us have a degree in the field anyways.  I will merely state we must all respect the opinions of others and move on.

 

Its obvious I am just explaining what I personally like and don't like.

To me, if one can't act without the other then they are slaves to the whim of the other depending on who is actually controlling those whims of the body at the moment. Its not like they were born like that either, surrogates were forced to be vessels for the Tenno. And a synonomous consciousness is also an affront to the freedom and individuality that I so value and not really any better sounding. To me one dominant consciouness is actually coercing the other. Its inhuman for people to be in constant agreement, and people need their space. They are little more than hiveminded insectoid drones otherwise, or infested.

Its what made the goals of Sofia Lamb and results like Gilbert Alexander's fate, so horrendous.

For this setup, it is better if the surrogate is a mere lifeless vessel, and not truly alive,  though this takes emotion out of their "dying" like with Mirage.

Stuff like this is part of why I just wanted them to be suits. I want straight forward autonomous identities, head-mates are of no interest to me here.

 

Warframes as suits is already amusing enough on its own, no need for this transference stuff to "spice" things up.

Edited December 18, 2015 by UrielColtan

[SilentMobius]

For this setup, it is better if the surrogate is a mere lifeless vessel, and not truly alive.

 

I would argue you mean "sapient" (personhood) or maybe "sentient" (capable of feeling) here rather than "alive". Bacteria is "alive" and I don't think there is any issue with machinera made from engineered bacteria.

Edited December 18, 2015 by SilentMobius

[UrielColtan]

I would argue you mean "sapient" (personhood) or maybe "sentient" (capable of feeling) here rather than "alive". Bacteria is "alive" and I don't think there is any issue with machinera made from engineered bacteria.

 

Did not use that word in what you quoted there.

And people don't care about making stuff out of bacteria due to an invalid mind, I pointed this out already in prior posts. Undermining the mind of the surrogate is how stories make this idea presentable. Though this does not make one feel so bad about their vessel dying.

Edited December 18, 2015 by UrielColtan

[KorbanGado]

-snip-

Out of curiosity, do you know the Spiderman villain (or I guess hero nowadays?) Venom or his red counterpart Carnage? If yes, what's your take on them?