Datamined Mission Rewards Are Bad. If True, Please Change Them.

[Kamael.Prime]

Oh my...

Ok. Let's stop this righteous anger posts, and propose solutions :-)

I do understand devs have families to feed, but I can also see that something went wrong during void look table creation process.

So my idea is to let all void droprate values intact, with an exception of t1 and t2 keys which values should be changed so they can drop as often as hellfire mods. Both sides should be happy this way ;-)

[Skeloton]

She mentions Diablo, presumably the series. Not D3 in particular.

 

Action RPG loot systems, you know, you kill stuff, loot drops out of them. Based on a better or worse RNG system. The staple of all Action-RPGs.

 

Some call those games Diablo-clones. Or games like Diablo. Its a fairly common term for people who had their first contact with the game style through said game.

Yeah, D3 is the only one I can comment one though.

 

But at least you could buy gear strait up with real money / in game money. And content wasn't hidden behind a <2% drop chance.

I guess theres that, thinking about it D3 and Warframe have few things in common lol.

[TehJumpingJawa]

Has anyone asked the question as to why these values are even present in the client?

If the Warframe servers are just dumb databases, and it is the (untrustable) Warframe client that is relied upon to perform the logic & updates.... then uh oh!

The first hack that circumvents the client side protection, and whatever server side cheat heuristics exist, will seriously harm the game.

[f3llyn]

Yeah I'm dubious as well. According to this I should've gotten at least 1 T3 void key after 667 defense missions. This is simply not the case, so clearly drop chance is not that high.

 

That's not how it works. If you run 1000 missions your chance to get an item does not increase by 1000 by the time you've ran it 999 times. It's the same on the first run as it is on the second and the 999th. It's entirely possible to never get something you're after. RNG is fun.

[Mainabi]

Has anyone asked the question as to why these values are even present in the client?

If the Warframe servers are just dumb databases, and it is the (untrustable) Warframe client that is relied upon to perform the logic & updates.... then uh oh!

The first hack that circumvents the client side protection, and whatever server side cheat heuristics exist, will seriously harm the game.

go solo, you're disconnected from the game servers when you, you can pick up mods, you can play offline WHILE inside the mission and still receive mods etc, in the end there's the reward, the you can still be offline there, THEN the data will be uploaded to the servers, if you're online there, you would receive anything you got

[ImaginaryFacepalm]

I play games for fun.

New stuff is always fun: Starting to play, progressing, getting new stuff. Therefor Warframe was my favourite game for some time and everything seemed good, devs caring, good community, good gameplay.

But now i just got nothing new to enjoy in Warframe, because i experienced that filling your time with something else than monotonous farming for new things is more enjoyable, yet still i check the alert notifications and login rewards, just to get bored watching the menu, not knowing what to do that i haven´t done.

 

The most diversity in gameplay you get from new weapons and frames (10 missiontypes and 3 factions are not that much diversified, especially if all you do is kill stuff. Even if it´s spread over 207 missions, you always do the same)

 

After U8 I enjoyed playing Warframe again, I mean, Void is beautiful, lot´s of new weapons ´n stuff, but then i noticed: hours and hours of monotony are not worth one single peak into the void just to not get anything usefull.

 

Atleast one can´t complain about the frost prime bp from the exterminate event wasn´t special, if it´s only in T3 void obtainable otherwise.

[Nerokerubina]

 

Atleast one can´t complain about the frost prime bp from the exterminate event wasn´t special, if it´s only in T3 void obtainable otherwise.

 

You can get the Frost Prime Master Blueprint in T2 Void runs; I got one.

[JamnikPucek]

Are you being sarcastic? Because she doesn't say that at all in that quote. She didn't even specify the datamined information in question. She just said generally ' Reverse engineered data is not perfect ' If she wanted to say that the tables shown were wrong, she would have just said it.

 

 

Arguing with each other over datamined content that has already had to be corrected seems troublesome. The issue here is two fold:

1) Reversed engineered data is not perfect.

2) The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed.

 

 

Emphasis mine. Unless there is another set of 'datamined' content anywhere, seems to be directly referring this one. Hells, not only that, but as several other Dev posts, it confirms in the later part that the drops are indeed skewed.

 

I've only had experience with direct database access to one loot table in the past, but I seriously doubt that they are neatly printed out in percentages, typically loot table use an internal logic that is parsed by the game. I already posted my doubts about the validity of the data presented in this thread, I can also add to that that in some cases the loot odds add up to more then 100% (100.2% to be exact) making me think they were parsed as well. I probably couldn't tell if those values are correct or not, even if I had access to raw data and how its parsed in-game. That is why live data from beta testers is typically recorded on implementation and values are adjusted according to feedback. Beta and all that (inb4 it does not matter its Beta since I can already play it!)

 

Ultimately even if we assume that the data is correct, what it does prove is that values were seriously lowballed on implementation. And that is exactly what you want to do, especially if you consider that a global wipe is not planned. 

 

What it does not prove is that DE wants all your money and every one rot in low odd RNG hell. People just like to be overdramatic when making their points. Easier to get upvotes and attention if you stir the pot I guess.

 

Yeah, D3 is the only one I can comment one though.

 

Most aRPG fans that I know do not consider D3 representative of Diablo at all. Most point to D2. I've yet to see a case when someone says that something is like "Diablo" and mean the 3rd installment. Hells, Path of Exile players are still hilariously easy to troll into hours of rants about how bad D3 is with two sentences or so.

 

And either way, to my understanding, when you mention a Diablo-like loot system you mean RNG drops from killed monsters, scaling up as you level up, nothing else. Its pretty much the staple of the genre.

 

Jaminek is just a shill desperate to justify his investment.

 

I already told you, I just want my naked sushi time.

 

Also, if I was a shill, wouldn't I be the one invested in?

[Tyroki]

This game had so much promise in closed beta...

U8 has severely #*($%%@ it all up.

DE need to get their act together. Being branded as money grubbing swines is not a good thing in their line of work.

 

You can get the Frost Prime Master Blueprint in T2 Void runs; I got one.

 

 

@Nerokerubina: Hail to you, golden child.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Tyroki

[Nohra]

The only thing you're not farming is Forma and Potatoes... those, you CAMP. you open up a twitter feed and just wait until one pops hopefully you're on your computer and able to drop what you're doing and log in.

...if that 'RNG' weren't too busy giving us dagger axes and scavenger artifacts, anyways.

 

 

She mentions Diablo, presumably the series. Not D3 in particular.

 

Action RPG loot systems, you know, you kill stuff, loot drops out of them. Based on a better or worse RNG system. The staple of all Action-RPGs.

 

Some call those games Diablo-clones. Or games like Diablo. Its a fairly common term for people who had their first contact with the game style through said game.

Diablo 1 didn't have horrible drop rates, by and large. Diablo 2 and 3 both have Magic Find as a stat, and additionally 3 has Nephalem Valor.

 

So, where's my 'space ninja find' mod for myself and my Sentinel, so I can fix these ****ing horrible drop rates and finally get a Barrel Diffusion?

 

Probably hidden behind another .15% drop chance.

[S5alad]

People asserting these values.

People asserting these values are fake.

50:50

 

Thread will defend DE unless proof is specifically given for datamined values despite the fact datamining was 100% accurate for clan weapons.

 

I'd say these values are accurate simply because we have more evidence on the side of them being accurate than them not.

Going with the side that's proven itself once before as opposed to the developers that couldn't even deliver weapons that weren't placeholders yet were happy to take money for rush building to get unfinished content faster.

 

Also, you can get mods from missions. I remember getting mods for my mercury farming a few updates ago. Just because these are potential tables does not mean their drops are actively enabled for missions.

 

As for omni ammo boxes, you are wrong. So wrong.

http://puu.sh/36HMo/d54192133d.jpg

I certainly didn't pay platinum for that, got it from a defense.

 

Why are people so quick to defend DE? They make mistakes. They admit mistakes they're called out on.

If nobody had complained about the Receiver rate, if a key exploit hadn't existed to project the hideous numbers, how much money do you think they would have received before this was noticed legitimately?

 

Honestly. No more words.

So true.

[Tyroki]

I have yet to see a potato in the alerts since returning to the game. :\

[S5alad]

I have yet to see a potato in the alerts since returning to the game. :\

I have yet to even have my daily rewards returned to 7 days after it was reset by hotfix.  Or get any of the components I need after countless void runs.

 

F*** the RNG.  Even with pay to win you don't really win, you pay to gamble for a mission that will maybe get you the drop you want, but never does.  Way to lose my money DE.

[Niryco]

These tables make no sense.

a) you don't get mods as mission rewards, you pick them up during the mission. I've been told that the "Daily win bonus" is a mod, but I'm not sure if it's true.

b) You don't get "omni ammo box" Ever during missions, period. Not for the reward, not as a drop during the level, nothing. It's exclusively a reward for Defence or the daily login (Aside from being purchased of course)

 

 

It makes me curious as to the validity of anything.

I have gotten omni ammo box once and it is there is only one in my inventory

[Nerokerubina]

I wonder if the Devs will respond to this thread or just ignore it.

[whiterain1000]

The mission rewards are... insignificant for the most part, the ones that matter are Keys, and the drop rates of items from Towers. Who cares if the multishot rate is 0.15%, your going to kill tens of thousands of mobs over a month of playing, odds are you will get your multishot.  Remove the frost prime blueprint, make all of the pieces equal % in tier 3, forma the most common in 1 and 2 and be done with it.

 

Toss in ammo boxes, heath restores, make new boosters 60minute exp bonus, credit bonus, and add resources to mission rewards, you get ~1% chance for a key total from bonus rewards and prob solved.... There will be endless rage "i have 0812380 ammo boxes!!!" so make them sellable for credits.

 

Ah, wait a minute I forgot this is a Free to play, there will be rage about everything even if they gave every account every item in the game the minute it got released. Mah bad.

[Ced23Ric]

I wonder if the Devs will respond to this thread or just ignore it.

 

For starters, this:

 

Arguing with each other over datamined content that has already had to be corrected seems troublesome. The issue here is two fold:

1) Reversed engineered data is not perfect.

2) The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed.

So, bearing in mind Steve has addressed the issue of RNG as a whole (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/), and that our current system is largely inspired from games like Diablo (and others), what changes are you looking for? What would you like to see?

Thanks to those who referred to the concept of "rare" items as a whole and how that plays into drop rate systems in other games. Definitegj brings up a good point on "use it an it's gone" in regards to keys and how that could affect arguments.

 

Moving on: Today is the first day the staff is back in the office. Rebecca just works on and off on the weekends.

 

On people asking if this is legit. Rebecca doesn't deny it. Just tries to discredit it.

 

... tries to ask for concrete feedback, too. Rebecca isn't privy to any and all mechanics of the game, and cannot make statements as the designers/programmers can. She plays just like we do, and she knows what is transported to her. Expecting her to deny/confirm things she does not know in detail is a little far-fetched.

 

For now, she is probably asking the same or similar questions as we are.

[Tyroki]

Question number one of course being: "Are you guys @(*()$ serious?"

 

=P

Edited June 3, 2013 by Tyroki

[Nerokerubina]

I have a hard time believing she plays this game on the regular basis.

She plays just like we do

[Wutever]

Since people have calmed down and some even want to get a discussion going on how to unf*ck the drop rates, here's a general idea:

 

Mods in this game are more or less devided into "classes" - we have  rifle, shotgun, handgun, melee, warframe ability, warframe, sentinel ability, sentinel mods and cores (I don't think I forgot anything). Then we also have BPs, keys, components and items. That's 13 classes in total. When somebody goes into a mission this person usually has some sort of farming goal. "Man, I sure do want that Banshee Helmet BP" or "I really could use a Serration now so I can level it up to the next rank" is what goes through somebody's mind when starting a mission.

 

Problems is - it doesn't matter what you do. The drop chances are equally sh*t for everything everywhere. All raids will drop the same things, for example and you can't affect this in any way. The lowest and highest level Raid mission will have the same loot table. Which race you are fighting doesn't matter one bit either, although drops from enemies do seem to get affected by race.

 

All this seems to be a giant mess. Your mission choices don't matter, having high level frames doesn't really make things better and things are counter-intuitive in general.

 

Now that we have a general view of the issue we can start looking for sollutions. First things first - the loot tables are a giant messy clusterf*ck and make no sense at all. Doing a more difficult mission should yield better rewards (or different rewards, at least). Doing a different mission type on a different planet against a different faction should yield different rewards. This would stop people from mindlessly farming Xini all day and have them do other missions for different loot.

 

Here's where the loot classes come in. A certain planet / mission / whatever could have favoured loot classes. Wanna get X? Go do missions A, B or C, because they have the best drop chance. This could further be adjusted by levels or planets. A player doing higher level content would probably be looking for a different kind of loot than somebody just starting out on Mercury. This would prevent the loot tables from getting excessively dilluted over time as well as specific things could be added to specific pools and not just tossed into Tier X Defense pool together with like 50 other things. Somebody starting out with an Excalibur would most likely love to see more Excalibur skill drops than Vauban or Banshee ones, while a player that has been playing for a longer time would be praying for a Flow or Serration drop. Another even more experienced player would like to pimp his stuff out even more with a Retribution mod to accompany his 1k shield.

 

In short: loot tables need to be split up much more using level ranges, factions and locations to satisfied the diverse needs of different players.

 

Another option would be to add different loot tables from which the player could choose his reward after a mission. With trading on the horizon this could add very interesting interactions after a mission is done. The way I'd imagine this is that a player gets to choose between a number of randomly selected loot tables. They can be based on the classes above, adjusted by faction, planet, mission type and level or use an entirely different system. The player then rolls a RNG and gets loot. He can also see what other party members got and can initiate a trade with them. This system removes much of the frustration associated with RNG.

 

In short: a multiple choice loot table system that may or may not accompany the previous system.

 

Obviously both cases need to take into account ways to make money with this kind of system, cause DE aren't doing charity here, but I really doubt this would be difficult, especially with the second system in place (loot boosts similar to affinity boosts that let you choose 2 "booster packs" instead of just one after a mission, for example).

[mrfluffydeath]

I have a hard time believing she plays this game on the regular basis.

How do *you* define regular basis?

Across the entire population of Registered Warframe players, how many do you think play on "on a regular basis"

If you took the average weekly playtime of the entire registered player-base, do you think it would reach the amount of "regular basis"

I will weight it a little more in your favor, you can use the registered playerbase whose play-time is greater than zero hours weekly. 

Remember there are more view-points to the equation than just yours.

[Nerokerubina]

How do *you* define regular basis?

Across the entire population of Registered Warframe players, how many do you think play on "on a regular basis"

If you took the average weekly playtime of the entire registered player-base, do you think it would reach the amount of "regular basis"

I will weight it a little more in your favor, you can use the registered playerbase whose play-time is greater than zero hours weekly. 

Remember there are more view-points to the equation than just yours.

If you're not playing at around 15hrs a day, you're doing it wrong :V

[MrTetsuo]

I'm curious to know when was the last time someone from DE tried to farm for:

 

- Void keys

- Any Void exclusive item parts

- All 3 BP of a Warframe

- A particular mod

 

And how long it took them, in average. As much as they can play the game, I sincerely doubt anyone with decision making power does play like the regular players with limited Platinum to manage.

[ArsVampyre]

My suggested solution:

Divide the rewards into three classes (or more if necessary), Common items, uncommon items, and rare items.

Make pools containing each item of that class (common contains common mods, ammo packs, credits, etc). Give the reward RNG a percent change to pull a particular pool, say 75% for common pool, 20% for uncommon pool, and 5% for rare pool. After the RNG decides on the pool, each item in the pool has exactly the same chance as any other item in the pool. So if your reward rolls rare, then a forma BP has an equal chance with a handspring, or T3 key, etc.

For higher difficulty, adjust the percent. So at Venus defense wave 5, go with this percent. At wave 10, adjust so Common is 70%, uncommon is 24%, and rare is 6%. Start out Pluto defense at something different, like 50% common, 35% uncommon, 15% rare. As you go up in difficulty , the chance for a more rare reward increases, but the chance for a particular reward, especially from the rare pool, is still low.

Add new items? Shove them in the pool. The chance for a particular item decreases slightly but the chance for a particular class of reward doesn't. No need to custom make each loot table for each item, and no getting stuck on a particular piece of loot (or if it was, it'd be massively obvious. The chances of say, 3 items coming up in a row when the table has so many items and they're all equal chance in the pool is exceptionally small).

You could do something similar with the drop tables (and maybe you do), but to me this is a lot more fair. The % values shown above are intended for demonstration only, not as the actual suggested values. But feel free to use them if you want.

The value in this is that while it may or may not make a particular reward more or less likely to be obtained than now, the perception that you're getting better rewards will be there regardless. Unless you set the Rare pool to something ridiculous like .15% I'm fairly certain everyone would think it was fixed, even if the individual chances of getting a T3 void key still ended up at .15%.

[krisp]

Logical fallacy. One set of data being true does not mean that another one is true. Construction material costs are childishly easy to verify since they are provided for you in-game once you get to them. The same logic cannot be applied to drop rates.

 

How long have I played the game is not relevant to what I should or should not know. I do not have access to statistical data to even start drawing any conclusions about how things work internally. Again, no one of us has, no matter how long we've played this game.

A fallacy is not a fallacy until it gives the wrong answer. Datamining the game a second time with a method proven to work is likely to give credible results.

 

Just saying. Don't hand-wave something away just because you don't like the evidence.

 

 

As for my opinion on this:

Values are a bit all over the place and need to be changed somewhat. There's obviously a problem with Hellfire and Heated charge, carpet doesn't match the drapes. Otherwise, I'd really like it if Forma was more common.

Edited June 3, 2013 by krisp