Why Is F2P An Excuse, Not A Feature? (Anymore)

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

Get sick of you brats calling Warframe pay to win. You don't even know what P2W is let alone experienced true P2W if you think Warframe fits that model.

Take Jade Dynasty for instance. It is a game built mostly around PvP with some decent PvE raids sprinkled here and there but PvP content definitely takes the cake with various group PvP raids, events, even dungeons thrown into the game. There is a refinery system in game with gear going as high as +20 in how many ranks you can increase your stats by. To be even remotely competitive you need +9 but to keep up with the top players +10 to +11. Then on top of this there is three sets of gear you will have to go through to PvP because from Lv150 to Lv160 Ascension (total levels on the game is 310, 150 pre-ascension 160 post ascension) you will need to upgrade those sets before hitting the advanced ones and going up from there. Refinery rate from +1 to +5 is quite low OK these sets and if you fail your gear shatters forcing you to buy new gear. But alas, you're in luck the cash shop is here to save the day! There is Star Charms for $0.50 each or a bundle of 10 for $3.50 which slightly increases success rates, doesn't break your gear on fail, not does reduce its rank by one if you do fail. Don't like that, well we have another better item Bronze sigils! 100% chance to increase rank up to a cap of +4 costs $2.50 per sigils or $12.50 for twelve of them with the added perk that when you trade in three bronze sigils you get a silver sigils which works on gear +5, and if you trade in three silver you get gold for +6 and it keeps going until +10! It's like 300 Bronze sigils per armour piece (there is a minimum of four slots to deal with, eight if you are maxing everything as much as possible) if you don't want to gamble with Star Charms which can easily be more expensive than the sigils. This is for ONE full set, not including the sets above the level of what you're currently using, the cost of Yuan Crystals that will transform your current set into the next level part without losing your refinery, the cost of upgrade your esper, soul stone, etc. A fraction of what you have to deal with. Far more than just this to be competitive as well.

So, tell me, what components of Warframe are required to be competitive that you can't get in game with trading or a bit of time? All that I mention you HAVE to buy. All that I mentioned is even needed in PvE if you want to enjoy any of the end game content. How is Warframe anything like this? Yeah,it's pay for expediency but nowhere near pay to win. Can't get Wukong yet? Get Valkyr. Can't get Ivara yet? Get Loki. Can't get Nezha yet? Play Rhino, Nova, Nyx, etc. All these frames fit similar roles and you can use them until you can get the new frames.

Edited December 25, 2015 by (PS4)FunyFlyBoy

[MumblesMcphatty]

That's a hyperbolic statement if i've ever seen one. Care to name 3?

Ha! Name just one F2P model that is "better" (whatever that means) than Warframe.

[es.iiden]

TERA has a fairly successful F2P model. League is also good(granted my experiences are limited and mostly experienced 2nd hand). Why warframe doesnt do well as the others? because of the nature and the game. yes in F2P you will work abit harder to achieve results or obtain items that someone who spent abit more money otherwise wouldn't have to go through but look at the hoops you have to jump through just to achieve objectives and desires in Warframe. its absolutely insane. the amount of time and timewalls in the game is asinine and completely unnecessary at some points. granted i completely understand the time=money equivalent of the thing but sometimes in WF you have to question of its even worth it at times.

[tinyranitar]

So, tell me, what components of Warframe are required to be competitive that you can't get in game with trading or a bit of time? All that I mention you HAVE to buy. All that I mentioned is even needed in PvE if you want to enjoy any of the end game content. How is Warframe anything like this? Yeah,it's pay for expediency but nowhere near pay to win. Can't get Wukong yet? Get Valkyr. Can't get Ivara yet? Get Loki. Can't get Nezha yet? Play Rhino, Nova, Nyx, etc. All these frames fit similar roles and you can use them until you can get the new frames.

You guys forgot someone has to pay for the plat to get you that plat, right...? And in ANY of my post do you see me complain about Nezha and Ivara? 

 

And you say I don't understand the term P2W. In fact, I rarely use that phrase to describe Warframe, almost never. The worst is "Warframe is HEADING toward P2W". 

 

I am only saying Warframe's F2P nature has been downgraded.

 

Pretty weak argument considering how many weapons there are in Warframe, and you complain about two of them (War and Broken War). As for the "much less enjoyable unless you put cash in." phrase. Again: Sell a maxed corrupted mod or something similar. Earning the in-game currency in Warframe is made very easy. And if you're going to complain about "Oh but it requires cores, credits and time!". Well big news: Everything worth doing does. Especially in life. This game requires patience and it seems you don't have any.

 

Dota 2...seriously? You compare Warframe to a MOBA? And the fact you think Hawken is/was good tells quite a lot. Warframe actually has lore and story, unlike some games like DOTA and LoL. DOTA has what, 3 different types of game modes? Hooray. Go play that then since it is so awesome and earn some in-game curr- oh but wait, you can't. The only option is to use cash for cosmetics. Aw.

DotA has 3 game modes. That says a lot about your knowledge. We actually have a tool for making custom maps and theoretically we have infinite game mode. 

 

HAWKEN was good before it's dead. Its balancing was bad I admit, but its business model is the most free to play one could hope to achieve.

 

I complain about 2 of them since they belong to the latest release and the most relevant example now. Even if Braton was pay to win but it existed since the beginning of time, nobody would complain because that's the way it is. But the fact that Warframe hasn't been doing bollocks like Broken-War -> War Cycle, they doing it now means that they are testing the player's reaction. If we don't voice our opinion now, I am afraid it won't be 2 weapons.

Ha! Name just one F2P model that is "better" (whatever that means) than Warframe.

You don't play much video game, do you? Probably Hat Fortress 2?

[MumblesMcphatty]

-Snip-

Hawken?! You have to be kidding me! The game was abandoned and the devs just ran ... Assuming it actually made any money at all it was hardly an example of a better F2P model.

And don't bring up its current state - assuming Reloaded actually manage to save it - I'm fairly certain it won't be the pay model it started with.

[tinyranitar]

Hawken?! You have to be kidding me! The game was abandoned and the devs just ran ... Assuming it actually made any money at all it was hardly an example of a better F2P model.

And don't bring up its current state - assuming Reloaded actually manage to save it - I'm fairly certain it won't be the pay model it started with.

Uhhh... In case you miss the point, what I meant that Warframe is not the best. Sure it's good, but let's look at: Team Fortess, LaTale, DotA 2, League... etc

[Sloan441]

Lots of folks clearly have no clue at all what P2W means, or what potentially makes is corrosive to a game.

 

WF is a collection game. I hang on to way more stuff than I should just because space packrat. I like it, but that isn't a "win" and, more importantly, doesn't affect you as another player a bit.

 

And that's the key.

 

Whether I have War, BrokenWar, BrokebackWar, or whateverthehell doesn't affect you as another player. If I get the opportunity to pick it up, I probably would, but mostly I don't care. I rarely equip melee and don't regard it as a particularly big deal. If you have one, great, enjoy yourself. It doesn't affect me in the least, however.

 

A lot of people would be far better off minding their own business and not worrying about what others are doing.

[tinyranitar]

Lots of folks clearly have no clue at all what P2W means, or what potentially makes is corrosive to a game.

WF is a collection game. I hang on to way more stuff than I should just because space packrat. I like it, but that isn't a "win" and, more importantly, doesn't affect you as another player a bit.

And that's the key.

Whether I have War, BrokenWar, BrokebackWar, or whateverthehell doesn't affect you as another player. If I get the opportunity to pick it up, I probably would, but mostly I don't care. I rarely equip melee and don't regard it as a particularly big deal. If you have one, great, enjoy yourself. It doesn't affect me in the least, however.

A lot of people would be far better off minding their own business and not worrying about what others are doing.

Well, that is a sound argument. Warframe is not a P2W environment, but its F2P-ness is downgrading, seeing how contents is being locked behind a paywall.

[Tubsie]

Yeah I don't know about DOTA 2 because I don't even want to try it. "Infinite game modes" by creating maps? Yeah that's what it is, theory. That's same as saying that Warframe has infinite game modes because "each run is different". *facepalm* And it's clear to me in your answer that for some reason (maybe burned through the content?) you don't like Warframe anymore. So the question is: Why are you here on the forums complaining about it if you're so upset? Go play DOTA 2 or whatever then with all those stupid minigames in it (place ward, destroy ward, deny mob, kill mob). Wow, such enjoyment, much clicking, wow.

 

And the fact you haven't replied to the in game currency tells enough as well. Name one F2P game that gives you the ability to earn in-game currency without paying real cash. A game that is still doing well as F2P as of right now. If you can't name any, probably time to think a little what "bad business model" means. I do believe they know quite a lot better than you do about their own business models.

 

If the business model is so bad in your opinion. What would you suggest?

[TheGuyver]

Considering the rate that people burn through this games "progression" and "content" by sitting at draco for hours on end, I'm totally fine with time walls. like Wukong and straight up beating your face against RNG for Nezha.

 

"oh noes I have to work with my clan to get wukong instead of going somewhere on my nekros and farming the resources in a couple of missions."

 

"oh noes I have to leave draco to do the sortie and/or trade with people for Nezha."

 

As for the War/Broken War thing, DE will probably sort the situation out after the holidays. DE had their hands full with shipping out u18 for consoles as well as patching for us. It's a weak argument to make since we're still fresh off of u18. There's honestly just too much stuff in the game to avoid these convoluted ways to get things.

[MumblesMcphatty]

Uhhh... In case you miss the point, what I meant that Warframe is not the best. Sure it's good, but let's look at: Team Fortess, LaTale, DotA 2, League... etc

 

Not even going to acknowledge the MOBA's - different kettle of fish entirely - as for TF2 - it did spend 4 years as a paid for product before going to F2P - also not really comparable to Warframe's business model. 

 

None of your examples even come close to what we have here - the scope and quality of Warframe surpasses all those examples and more - heck its better than an awful lot of AAA titles from recent years. 

[jonnin]

eh.  Free to play does not mean everything can be had instantly.   Alertium is annoying, but it IS free.   It is arguably less annoying than grinding for ivara.  Our clan already finished it... dunno if people paid for it or if we just all ran every alert we saw for a month (sure felt like we were doing it this way).

 

War and broken war, yes you have to pay to have both in your hands at once.  Ok ... you got me there...  oh wait, I can't equip more than one melee weapon at once!   Its not the best melee in the game.   On top of that this game allows players who don't pay in to get paid-for coin via trading so you can actually "grind" it by earning stuff, selling it to others, and buying what you want. 

 

Let me break it down for you:

 

- pay to win: the best gear is available directly for money, for example diablo3 pre-fix or neverwinter nights (launch configuration).  The same gear may be available in game with extreme amounts of farming and effort, but its designed to be bought and usually tied to pvp where people WILL buy it to beat on each other.

 

- pay to play:  costs money to play, a subscribed game.  Classic WOW for example.

- free to play:  neither of the above, even if some things do cost money to pay for things like servers and programmers.

 

The bulk of free games are extremely heavy grinds to earn things and pay to shortcut.   Warframe is about a 4/10 on this scale... its grindy in places, but its also nowhere near the really bad ones.  I don't think its taken me a full month to earn anything I wanted to work for.   Compare to oldskool wow, where a month of raiding often still led to zero items won -- after having to pay to play!

Edited December 25, 2015 by jonnin

[tinyranitar]

Yeah I don't know about DOTA 2 because I don't even want to try it. "Infinite game modes" by creating maps? Yeah that's what it is, theory. That's same as saying that Warframe has infinite game modes because "each run is different". *facepalm* And it's clear to me in your answer that for some reason (maybe burned through the content?) you don't like Warframe anymore. So the question is: Why are you here on the forums complaining about it if you're so upset? Go play DOTA 2 or whatever then with all those stupid minigames in it (place ward, destroy ward, deny mob, kill mob). Wow, such enjoyment, much clicking, wow.

 

And the fact you haven't replied to the in game currency tells enough as well. Name one F2P game that gives you the ability to earn in-game currency without paying real cash. A game that is still doing well as F2P as of right now. If you can't name any, probably time to think a little what "bad business model" means. I do believe they know quite a lot better than you do about their own business models.

 

If the business model is so bad in your opinion. What would you suggest?

Man. You sure like to antagonise people do you?

 

I love Warframe. If not, as you stated, I'd be long gone and not here posting. Who decides that only positive feedback should be given?

 

We can create maps. Create different objectives. In Warframe there is Exterminate, Survival, etc... In DotA we have different game mode like Overthrow, Classic, Haunted Colloseum, Epic Bossfight. DotA has infinte objectives, thus infinite game mode. If you haven't tried it, I suggest you do.

[tinyranitar]

Not even going to acknowledge the MOBA's - different kettle of fish entirely - as for TF2 - it did spend 4 years as a paid for product before going to F2P - also not really comparable to Warframe's business model. 

 

None of your examples even come close to what we have here - the scope and quality of Warframe surpasses all those examples and more - heck its better than an awful lot of AAA titles from recent years. 

Uhm, LaTale is a decent example then, seeing how nobody refute it. You know, there are some more, I just can't recall right now. Stop acting like Warframe is at the top, because even if it is, it is getting worse.

[Tubsie]

Wow...again not reply to the business model question. I don't even what's your feedback aside from "I have a feeling in my &#! that this F2P is downgrading.". It's been like this since forever. You can have prime access if you wish to have the new primes + cosmetics. Otherwise, you can still earn them free of charge. If the farming methods annoy you, well too bad. I rather spend more time grinding than get everything quickly and it's over in a week or so. Yay.

 

If you don't have better suggestions how to fix this whatever problem it is you're saying is happening, not much point complaining about it. Pics or didn't happen.

[es.iiden]

Wow...again not reply to the business model question. I don't even what's your feedback aside from "I have a feeling in my ! that this F2P is downgrading.". It's been like this since forever. You can have prime access if you wish to have the new primes + cosmetics. Otherwise, you can still earn them free of charge. If the farming methods annoy you, well too bad. I rather spend more time grinding than get everything quickly and it's over in a week or so. Yay.

 

If you don't have better suggestions how to fix this whatever problem it is you're saying is happening, not much point complaining about it. Pics or didn't happen.

i dont know why you need to sound hostile about it. Just because OP didn't point out a solution doesn't mean there isn't one. Others play for other reason. i dont play warframe to grind. if i wanted to grind i would play something with abit more long lasting substance. I play warframe to enjoy my frames and the different weapon combinations, sometimes it is inevitable though. people arent mad that grind exists. people mind when the grind is unwarrented. DE's method of controlling the speed at which users receive "content" is sometimes lacking.

[Tubsie]

He is basically saying: "I have a feeling something is happening/going to happen.". This is how psychics get money from people. xd

 

Let's see the facts what Warframe offers in it's business model:

 

-Option to gain in-game currency through not much effort really.

-Option to gain all the frames and weapons and cosmetics (aside from founder and prime access cosmetics) without real money.

 

So nearly EVERYTHING, without the use of real money. How ungrateful can someone be?

 

And could you at please elaborate this "downgrade of F2P" you say is happening? You mentioned some things being behind a pay wall...I just mentioned that only prime access and founder things are behind a paywall (cosmetics). So is that your argument or what? Please enlighten us.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Tubsie

[es.iiden]

Wait on the War-Broken War issue. I could have sworn Ordis "picked" this weapon up for me after SD mission and you get it via inbox...

[UltimateNinjaWarrior]

Wait on the War-Broken War issue. I could have sworn Ordis "picked" this weapon up for me after SD mission and you get it via inbox...

You do...

[Brokenrune]

He is basically saying: "I have a feeling something is happening/going to happen.". This is how psychics get money from people. xd

 

Let's see the facts what Warframe offers in it's business model:

 

-Option to gain in-game currency through not much effort really.

-Option to gain all the frames and weapons and cosmetics (aside from founder and prime access cosmetics) without real money.

 

So nearly EVERYTHING, without the use of real money. How ungrateful can someone be?

 

And could you at please elaborate this "downgrade of F2P" you say is happening? You mentioned some things being behind a pay wall...I just mentioned that only prime access and founder things are behind a paywall (cosmetics). So is that your argument or what? Please enlighten us.

Actually what I believe the op is talking about is the constant grind and wait walls the devs are adding. i,e Nezha, only obtainable from sorties, and only once a day. Ivara(?) probably just stupid rng for this case but for some players it feels like they made no progress, hence grind. Wukong, Atlas, Mesa, I could go on. The grind walls just seem to be increasing. 

Warframe's grind walls used to be less apparent and more manageable. 

 

As some guy said before me, clan research could be done in a month, but keep in mind that is mostly old content. 

It could be argued that the newer content has substantially more grind then the previous older content. 

This shows that the developers are indeed trying to push the players to buy the things. HOWEVER, I feel like there is a different intent then what other people think. I believe in one of the previous dev streams, or was it tenno live, that steve said they are trying to balance the stuff that we can buy and the grind to get them. Making us satisfied more satisfied in the end, I feel like they kinda screwed up on that one for some players.

Another concern would be, is DE losing money?

Edited December 25, 2015 by Brokenrune

[MagPrime]

He is basically saying: "I have a feeling something is happening/going to happen.". This is how psychics get money from people. xd

 

Let's see the facts what Warframe offers in it's business model:

 

-Option to gain in-game currency through not much effort really.

-Option to gain all the frames and weapons and cosmetics (aside from founder and prime access cosmetics) without real money.

 

So nearly EVERYTHING, without the use of real money. How ungrateful can someone be?

 

And could you at please elaborate this "downgrade of F2P" you say is happening? You mentioned some things being behind a pay wall...I just mentioned that only prime access and founder things are behind a paywall (cosmetics). So is that your argument or what? Please enlighten us.

Okay Hostile Horace, this isn't a feedback thread, this is a General Discussion thread.

That means the OP can say "I feel like this is an issue" to start a conversation and see what others think. Solutions are not required.

I'm not surprised you're not getting the responses you want, you're very hostile and antagonistic for no apparent reason. Back off a bit.

[(XBOX)SKWRLY]

Is it just me or does anyone else feel bad about not giving DE enough money? I've been playing since julyish and have only given them $10. I personally can't wait for the next prime to drop so I can drop some big buckaroos on this game.

[Tubsie]

Hostile? You can read my emotions through a text? The first line about psychics is sarcastic, not hostile. There isn't any "!" marks on my last post is there? And since when is asking for someone for a more detailed explanation being hostile?

 

As for the grind walls...if that is the topic he is complaining about, then it is his problem. Like I said, I rather grind and eventually get Ivara for example (have 2 pieces at the moment), than burn through all the content in a quick time. Then there would be all these "DE give us more content!" whiners on forums. People need to learn patience. If you can't wait for a warframe to finish in 3 days, go ahead and pay, tells quite a bit of your character however.

[Tubsie]

"War is better than Broken-War!"

 

That's just like, your opinion, man.

 

And the opinion of Warframe F2P downgrading is just yours.

 

 

Okay Hostile Horace, this isn't a feedback thread, this is a General Discussion thread.

That means the OP can say "I feel like this is an issue" to start a conversation and see what others think. Solutions are not required.

I'm not surprised you're not getting the responses you want, you're very hostile and antagonistic for no apparent reason. Back off a bit.

 

If you claim something without proof, or say it is a problem without having any solutions, it is an empty thread then. No point to this whatsoever. If you have an opinion but cannot back it up with some sort of proof/reasoning, perhaps think next time before starting?

[MagPrime]

And the opinion of Warframe F2P downgrading is just yours.

 

 

 

If you claim something without proof, or say it is a problem without having any solutions, it is an empty thread then. No point to this whatsoever. If you have an opinion but cannot back it up with some sort of proof/reasoning, perhaps think next time before starting?

You don't need proof for an opinion. You can point out a problem and have no solutions.

If you disagree so strongly, why are you camping this thread? Go participate in a conversation that suits your requirements.