Forma, Braton And Braton Vandal

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Nah, no way I'd do that. Viper/Furis are both 15.4. Twin Viper/Afuris are 8.7. Difference of 6.7. Easily noticeable. And to be fair the fire rate differences to affect it to some degree, but even with minimal shots fired I can tell.

Eh, fair enough, but the recoil is an unknown factor (and is doubled with the dual wielded guns, so it's bigger than 6.7 I think). However, we are talking about what I assume are the same gun with different RoF/damage value (I could be wrong though obv) and it doesn't (assuming) have different recoil values.

 

edit: could be though that recoil is factored in already, but I don't know for sure.

Edited June 4, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Enot83]

The simple fact that you can not seem to grasp anything beyond the concept of DPS and that this is your only balancing point shows that you do not fully understand the mechanics behind proper weapon balancing, let alone consideration for an exclusive item and how that balancing plays into things.

 

You acknowledge the existence of the additional damage from crit, that you acknowledge the accuracy plays a factor.  Then ignore these things outright and ask for identical dps, without comprehending what the cascading effects are of doing so.

 

In other words, come up with something meaningful beyond "make the dps the same"

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[KvotheTheArcane1]

The simple fact that you can not seem to grasp anything beyond the concept of DPS and that this is your only balancing point shows that you do not fully understand the mechanics behind proper weapon balancing, let alone consideration for an exclusive item and how that balancing plays into things.

 

Sure I can if you read my post, 15% accuracy would make a more meaningful difference compared to 5%

 

You acknowledge the existence of the additional damage from crit, that you acknowledge the accuracy plays a factor.  Then ignore these things outright and ask for identical dps, without comprehending what the cascading effects are of doing so.

 

Really? Lets calc it out.

200 shots each, crit chance included.

 

vandal gets 15 crits, and has 185 left, so 4450 damage (50 on a crit, 20 on reg)

braton gets 10 crits, and has 190 left, so 4300 damage

Vandal wins if you have the same number of shots, and aren't going for pure damage.

 

However if reload is the same, and you have max ammo (or near max) Braton wins because the difference in fire rate with those 200 shots is 3.8 seconds.

(200/ 9.3 = 21.5 vs 200/11.3 = 17.7 roughly and rounded)

This 3.8 allows for ~43 more shots, or 2 crits (roughly) and 41 regular shots, or 920 more damage in the same time (yes yes dps qq more)

 

This is a total of 4450 vs 5220 braton wins.

 

BUT WAIT, ACCURACY!

4450 * 33.3% = 1481.85 (vandal)

5330 * 28.6% = 1492.92 (braton)

So braton wins overall, and sure "barely" but this increase as time goes on. A good solution would be better accuracy, 15% would be a decent balance imo.

 

4450 * (28.6 + 15 = 43.6)% = 1940.2 Maybe 15% is too much, but if the fire rate was reduced more, perhaps it would be more balanced (YES DPS and how it compares over time matters. At a point the vandal is better, at another point this changes.)

 

if the fire rate was a flat 8, then the damage would be (from 200 shots) the same, but in the time it takes the braton's dps goes up (25 seconds now vs 21.5), so braton gains another 3.5 seconds to fire, or 39.55 shots, or ~2 crits (100 damage) + 751 damage or 871 more damage, so a total of 6091 * 28.6% = 1742.026

which over the next few seconds changes, to be in the braton's favor.

 

In other words, come up with something meaningful beyond "make the dps the same"

 

How about increase the accuracy, make it a true sidegrade with slightly higher damage perhaps, which makes it better for non boss fights/longer range, this makes the braton better for boss fights/long fights where lots of damage matters, while the vandal would clearly be better for mid to long range.

DPS for non-single shot (i.e. sniper)/semi auto (i.e. latron) weapons IS VERY IMPORTANT it's a way you balance the guns.

Your turn, what's your solution?

Edited June 4, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[FierceRadiance]

(Y)ou do not give a very limited set of players a unique weapon that can no longer be acquired by anybody else...which also has superior stats. It was a stupid idea to begin with.

 

The Braton Vandal is still more than viable. If DE want to re-release the weapon once the game emerges from beta as a high-rank version of the Braton which must be bought with plat or built, then maybe we can talk about adjusting its stats. But until then, it's a nice little vanity item, and should not be anything more than this.

I don't get this whole argument.  What's wrong with players who were around at or near the beginning of the game, who were able to perform a service for DE, receiving a benefit, cheap access to a nice gun, from DE in return for that service? 

 

Or, put more simply, what's wrong with somebody else having something nice that you don't have, and can't get? 

 

Why are people complaining about that?  It's part of life.  People buy cars you can't afford, do you complain about that?  Folk have better computers than you do, are they wrong?  People buy things in one part of the world that people in other parts can't get, is that also a bad thing?  I don't understand people who try (and fail) to put the discussion in terms of "fairness".  It's never been about being "fair".  It was always just a nice thing that DE made available for the people that were around at that time, that's all.  You weren't there, you didn't get it, accept it and move on.  Big-boy pants!  Access to this item was limited by time; access to other items is limited by money.  Limited access is simply a fact of life; do people just not understand that whole concept?

 

If this idea bothers you, are you going to agree to have your Snipetron reduced to a skin of some lesser weapon?  If, in the future, DE decides to retire a weapon or WF that you currently have, will you be filled with joy if they reduce your version to a skin of something else that's currently in the marletplace, with none of the powers that it currently has?  Of course not, because then YOU would be on the losing end, and that's where this whole argument falls apart.  It isn't about fairness, it's about "I WANT that, and if I can't have it, then neither should they!!!".  It's childish.

 

Yup, I've got one, and I freaking love it just the way it is, nerfed and all.  It's a death-hose.  If DE never did another thing to it, I'd be perfectly happy with it; I don't necessarily think it needs any more buffing.  That said, I think it would be nice if I got to have the gun I originally bought.  But this whole "Gimme it or nerf it!!" crap bothers me.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

-snip-

 

EXACTLY, exclusiveness is something in F2P games that keeps players playing. I would love to have a vandal, but I don't have one, and am not asking for one, HOWEVER why should a regular braton be better in terms of DPS (which is how auto guns are balanced)? They should roughly the same, anything the vandal can do it, the braton can do it better, or damn near good enough to make it a better choice.

[MJ12]

The Braton Vandal should at least have similar DPS over normal engagement ranges to the Braton, i.e. a damage of ~24.

 

I can't remember the last time I actually ran out of ammo for the Braton before enough to make the Vandal's ammo efficiency significantly better before the Braton buffs. An extra ~5% crit chance is effectively only an extra 2.5% damage, i.e. 0.5 extra damage per bullet.

 

Normalizing for crit chance the Braton deals 20 * 1.0 + 20 * .025 * 0.5 = 20.25 damage per shot.

 

The Braton Vandal deals 20 * 1.0 + 20 * .075 * 0.5 = 20.75 damage per shot.

 

This is an extra .5 damage a round, adding up to a whopping 292.5 damage for your entire ammo load. When the Braton runs out of ammunition, the Braton Vandal will have an incredible 14 shots left. This is amazing and totally overpowered.

[FierceRadiance]

EXACTLY, exclusiveness is something in F2P games that keeps players playing. I would love to have a vandal, but I don't have one, and am not asking for one, HOWEVER why should a regular braton be better in terms of DPS (which is how auto guns are balanced)? They should roughly the same, anything the vandal can do it, the braton can do it better, or damn near good enough to make it a better choice.

Then we both agree and disagree.  We agree on exclusivity, but not about making them the same. 

 

To me, part of the heart of the concept of 'exclusivity' involves the exclusive item being different in some way.  I see no reason why 'exclusive' and 'different' can't, under some circumstances, mean 'better'.  And when people start whining about an exclusive item being better, my frustration starts to grow.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Then we both agree and disagree.  We agree on exclusivity, but not about making them the same. 

 

To me, part of the heart of the concept of 'exclusivity' involves the exclusive item being different in some way.  I see no reason why 'exclusive' and 'different' can't, under some circumstances, mean 'better'.  And when people start whining about an exclusive item being better, my frustration starts to grow.

Well can be different and similar at the same time.

 

If a gun does 10 shots/second with 20 damage each, that gets the same result as 20 shots/second at 10 damage each, while both play slightly differently (I mean, how different can full auto machineguns/assault rifles/whatever you class the braton as, be, esp when something is supposed to be a different version of it. High Accuracy + good damage at the cost of RoF is one way)

 

And to note, I agree that the vandal shouldn't be a reskin of the braton, it should remain different (i.e. get some higher accuracy, more damage and a lower RoF obv)

Edited June 4, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Enot83]

My solution would be to use the correct math as a starter, and not ignore things or use the incorrect figures.  I'd also stop quoting poorly for others tracking the thread.

 

DPS is calculated in time.

 

The base bullet damage of the Braton & Braton Vandal is 20, a crit is 30.

 

Due to crit:

Average bullet damage of the Braton is 20.5 (MJ12 I'm not sure how our figures on this vary, though mine are in the favor of the Braton)

Average bullet damage of the Braton Vandal is 20.75

 

No reload:

B 20.5 * 11.3 = 231.65 DPS

BV 20.75 * 9.4 = 195.05 DPS

 

With no reloading the Braton wins with 36.6 dps.

 

With reload:

B (45*20.5) / [(45/11.3)+2.3] = 146.84

BV (45*20.75) / [(45/9.4)+2.3] = 131.75

 

With reloading the Braton wins by 15 dps.

 

If we were examine accuracy as you did, which was basically a hit or miss based on the % which is somewhat flawed both in favor of the braton and in favor the Braton Vandal in various scenarios, but for simplicity and to keep the comparisons similar.

 

Applied DPS if accuracy is treated as the % of actual hits:

 

No reload:

B 231.65 * .286 = 66.25

BV 195.05 * .333 = 64.95

 

Braton wins by 1.3 applied dps.

 

With reload

B 146.84 * .286 = 41.996

BV 131.75 * .333 = 43.872 <- what just happened there!?

 

Braton Vandal wins by 1.876 applied dps.

 

So lets examine bringing the figures together to find the middle of the road.

B (231.65 + 146.84) / 2 = 189.245 dps

BV (195.05 + 131.75) / 2 = 163.4 dps

 

Braton has higher dps by 25.845 dps while firing at a wall where accuracy has no effect at all.

 

With the accuracy factored strangely as before:

B 189.245 * .286 = 54.124 applied dps

BV 163.4 * .333 = 54.4122 applied dps <- wait it happened again!?

 

Braton Vandal has higher dps by .28 if using this model for accuracy that the accuracy value results in either a hit or miss.  There is a great deal more to this, for hitting enemies in the appropriate spots, at given ranges.  However, if hits were still made, but not to the correct weak point (hitting around it) then we would obviously see the Braton pull back ahead slightly, in specific scenarios.

 

Situations where you are close up, and missing is altogether unlikely, or you are fighting a boss who's weak point is easy to hit, you will see the Braton perform better, by 25.845 dps.  Over the span of 1 minute, you will be able to do an additional 1,550.7 dps, assuming you miss no shots, using 48.57 more bullets (avg) in comparison to the Braton Vandal.

 

The point is, as before, the Braton Vandal does more damage per shot.  In situations where accuracy matters, it also performs better and applying dps in the correct location.  You could argue due to the slower fire right that fewer additional bullets are fired at an enemy that is dead, making it even more efficient, when/if you do miss fewer bullets will miss, etc.  in the same 1 minute time frame where accuracy matters, you do an additional 17.29 dps (not nearly as great) and use 48.57 (avg) less bullets to do that dps.

 

The reason I took the average situation of reload vs. non-reload is that there are fights, in which it end before a reload is necessary.  However, this is the single largest way the Braton pulls ahead, in situations where you are reloading, the dps number becomes smaller, and specifically where accuracy is concerned the Braton Vandal clearly pulls ahead.

 

As I said before, the Braton Vandal has its place, and it is more ammo efficient.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[Fretless]

FWIW, I've used both the Braton and Braton Vandal up to rank 30, and I can't tell any difference in accuracy between them. I'm not even sure if the rating is even relevent; both the Braton and Grakata have the same accuracy rating, but when it comes time to shoot them it's obvious they don't have remotely the same accuracy.

[plznohurtme]

I'm not sure how many people in this thread actually have both weapons and/or used both at rank 30. I haven't used a regular Braton since before u7 so I haven't used it with the new mod system, though the new mod system doesn't change anything about the things being discussed here.

So long as you're not holding down fire on the two weapons the accuracy doesn't make any difference whatsoever. I will freely admit that if you're holding down that left click until the clip runs out you're far more likely to notice the difference, though if you're doing that chances are you're not aiming accurately for headshots which is the only time the accuracy would really matter (or long range, but again full auto at long range, really?).

I prefer the slower rate of fire on the Braton Vandal because all weapons at that level overkill pretty easily so it lets me be lazy about my firing. This doesn't make the Braton Vandal better than the Braton, because you can control fire it without any issue, it just means I can be lazier with my burst fire.

So if the accuracy between the two doesn't mean anything in any circumstance that you would be needing accurate fire that means the only effective difference between the two is critical strike percentage.

Example I'm using will be 8 magazines worth of fire (just easier math here):

Braton: 360 rounds, 18 crits, 540 critical damage, 6840 regular damage - 7380 total damage

Braton Vandal: 360 rounds, 27 crits, 810 critical damage, 6660 regular damage - 7470 total damage

Maximum RoF + reload time:

Braton: 31.86s of firing time, 16.1s reload time - 47.96s to empty 8 magazines

Braton Vandal: 38.3s of firing time, 16.1s reload time - 54.4s to empty 8 magazines

Obviously max theoretical damage output is different on a large enough scale that the Braton could fire another clip (including reload time) by the time the Braton Vandal finishes. But let's take a look at the damage numbers and see how many extra rounds the Braton actually has to fire to make up the difference. There is only a 90 damage difference between the two which means the Braton only needs to land an extra 5 rounds to pass the Braton Vandal.

I think everyone can agree that on an enemy that gets 1 shot neither weapon matters, or even one that takes 2-5 you're still likely not to notice the difference. This means that the only difference is going to come on heavies and bosses where the dps of the two weapons really does come into play. In this circumstance if you're burst firing from range, or full auto from short the Braton will play out quite noticeably different seeing as it can empty a mag almost 20% faster.

To even up the dps on the two weapons how they are right now it would require the Braton Vandal being raised to 24 base damage. Personally I would like to see (perfect world scenario for me here) them raise the damage to 25, but lower the RoF to 8.4 just to give it some more differentiation and still shrink the dps gap that currently exists.

For all those wondering about the overall implications I'll use my current loadout to show what current, my proposal and what just matching the dps looks like damage wise:

Max Serration: 165%

Max Hellfire: 90%

Max Cryo Rounds: 90%

Max Stormbringer: 90%

Max Piercing Hit: 60%

Just showing the damage numbers, because the other mods in use would be equal across the weapons.

Braton:

Base Damage: 53

Fire/Cold/Ele Damage: 47.7

Armor Piercing: 31.8

Maximum base damage per shot: 227.9

Maximum base damage per second: 2575.27

Braton Vandal (currently):

Base Damage: 53

Fire/Cold/Ele Damage: 47.7

Armor Piercing: 31.8

Maximum base damage per shot: 227.9

Maximum base damage per second: 2142.26

Braton Vandal (dps normalized):

Base Damage: 63.6

Fire/Cold/Ele Damage: 57.24

Armor Piercing: 38.16

Maximum base damage per shot: 273.48

Maximum base damage per second: 2570.712

Braton Vandal (my proposal):

Base Damage: 66.25

Fire/Cold/Ele Damage: 59.625

Armor Piercing: 39.75

Maximum base damage per shot: 284.875

Maximum base damage per second: 2392.95

So as is pretty obvious by now the damage per shot varies by a maximum of 25% but all of the dps numbers are pretty close to the same (crit variance between the two will amount to under a 2% damage difference for anyone that cares to think that stat is important).

While I do think that the Braton may have needed a bump to move it up from where it was just in the scheme of all of the weapons in the game... there is no reason why the Braton Vandal had to get the thrown under the bus treatment. I do not believe that the Braton Vandal should be better than the regular one, and in fact I don't even mind that they aren't equal, I just believe that they should be closer in dps and further apart in base damage.

Edited June 4, 2013 by plznohurtme

[Flunky]

oh no they lied to you about the weapon you spent one whole credit on, what a tragedy

[Enot83]

I'm not sure how many people in this thread actually have both weapons and/or used both at rank 30. I haven't used a regular Braton since before u7 so I haven't used it with the new mod system, though the new mod system doesn't change anything about the things being discussed here.

So long as you're not holding down fire on the two weapons the accuracy doesn't make any difference whatsoever. I will freely admit that if you're holding down that left click until the clip runs out you're far more likely to notice the difference, though if you're doing that chances are you're not aiming accurately for headshots which is the only time the accuracy would really matter (or long range, but again full auto at long range, really?).

I prefer the slower rate of fire on the Braton Vandal because all weapons at that level overkill pretty easily so it lets me be lazy about my firing. This doesn't make the Braton Vandal better than the Braton, because you can control fire it without any issue, it just means I can be lazier with my burst fire.

So if the accuracy between the two doesn't mean anything in any circumstance that you would be needing accurate fire that means the only effective difference between the two is critical strike percentage.

Example I'm using will be 8 magazines worth of fire (just easier math here):

Braton: 360 rounds, 18 crits, 540 critical damage, 6840 regular damage - 7380 total damage

Braton Vandal: 360 rounds, 27 crits, 810 critical damage, 6660 regular damage - 7470 total damage

Maximum RoF + reload time:

Braton: 31.86s of firing time, 16.1s reload time - 47.96s to empty 8 magazines

Braton Vandal: 38.3s of firing time, 16.1s reload time - 54.4s to empty 8 magazines

Obviously max theoretical damage output is different on a large enough scale that the Braton could fire another clip (including reload time) by the time the Braton Vandal finishes. But let's take a look at the damage numbers and see how many extra rounds the Braton actually has to fire to make up the difference. There is only a 90 damage difference between the two which means the Braton only needs to land an extra 5 rounds to pass the Braton Vandal.

I think everyone can agree that on an enemy that gets 1 shot neither weapon matters, or even one that takes 2-5 you're still likely not to notice the difference. This means that the only difference is going to come on heavies and bosses where the dps of the two weapons really does come into play. In this circumstance if you're burst firing from range, or full auto from short the Braton will play out quite noticeably different seeing as it can empty a mag almost 20% faster.

To even up the dps on the two weapons how they are right now it would require the Braton Vandal being raised to 24 base damage. Personally I would like to see (perfect world scenario for me here) them raise the damage to 25, but lower the RoF to 8.4 just to give it some more differentiation and the dps gap would be closer as well.

For all those wondering about the overall implications I'll use my current loadout to show what current, my proposal and what just matching the dps looks like damage wise:

Max Serration: 165%

Max Hellfire: 90%

Max Cryo Rounds: 90%

Max Stormbringer: 90%

Max Piercing Hit: 60%

Just showing the damage numbers, because the other mods in use would be equal across the weapons.

Braton:

Base Damage: 53

Fire/Cold/Ele Damage: 47.7

Armor Piercing: 31.8

Maximum base damage per shot: 227.9

Maximum base damage per second: 2575.27

Braton Vandal (currently):

Base Damage: 53

Fire/Cold/Ele Damage: 47.7

Armor Piercing: 31.8

Maximum base damage per shot: 227.9

Maximum base damage per second: 2142.26

Braton Vandal (dps normalized):

Base Damage: 63.6

Fire/Cold/Ele Damage: 57.24

Armor Piercing: 38.16

Maximum base damage per shot: 273.48

Maximum base damage per second: 2570.712

Braton Vandal (my proposal):

Base Damage: 66.25

Fire/Cold/Ele Damage: 59.625

Armor Piercing: 39.75

Maximum base damage per shot: 284.875

Maximum base damage per second: 2392.95

So as is pretty obvious by now the damage per shot varies by a maximum of 25% but all of the dps numbers are pretty close to the same (crit variance between the two will amount to under a 2% damage difference for anyone that cares to think that stat is important).

While I do think that the Braton may have needed a bump to move it up from where it was just in the scheme of all of the weapons in the game... there is no reason why the Braton Vandal had to get the thrown under the bus treatment. I do not believe that the Braton Vandal should be better than the regular one, and in fact I don't even mind that they aren't equal, I just believe that they should be closer in dps and further apart in base damage.

 

The accuracy and in the case I was using it for is for as was thrown out earlier fighting bosses, as opposed to simply normal enemies which I agree using short bursts with a properly modded weapon will yield results that make accuracy less relevant if at all.  For high end players fighting higher level opponents which take a great deal of bullets, this begins to change the weight of accuracy again.  I tried to tie in some dps calculations that looked at the strengths and weaknesses of each, not sure if you've seen the post on the previous page since you seem to have been writing a rather long and detailed one yourself.  Mind vetting it a bit?

 

FWIW, I've used both the Braton and Braton Vandal up to rank 30, and I can't tell any difference in accuracy between them. I'm not even sure if the rating is even relevent; both the Braton and Grakata have the same accuracy rating, but when it comes time to shoot them it's obvious they don't have remotely the same accuracy.

 

There are differences but highly dependent on the usage, see what I wrote above.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[MJ12]

My solution would be to use the correct math as a starter, and not ignore things or use the incorrect figures.  I'd also stop quoting poorly for others tracking the thread.

 

DPS is calculated in time.

 

The base bullet damage of the Braton & Braton Vandal is 20, a crit is 30.

 

Due to crit:

Average bullet damage of the Braton is 20.5 (MJ12 I'm not sure how our figures on this vary, though mine are in the favor of the Braton)

Average bullet damage of the Braton Vandal is 20.75

 

No reload:

B 20.5 * 11.3 = 231.65 DPS

BV 20.75 * 9.4 = 195.05 DPS

 

With no reloading the Braton wins with 36.6 dps.

 

With reload:

B (45*20.5) / [(45/11.3)+2.3] = 146.84

BV (45*20.75) / [(45/9.4)+2.3] = 131.75

 

With reloading the Braton wins by 15 dps.

 

If we were examine accuracy as you did, which was basically a hit or miss based on the % which is somewhat flawed both in favor of the braton and in favor the Braton Vandal in various scenarios, but for simplicity and to keep the comparisons similar.

 

Applied DPS if accuracy is treated as the % of actual hits:

 

No reload:

B 231.65 * .286 = 66.25

BV 195.05 * .333 = 64.95

 

Braton wins by 1.3 applied dps.

 

With reload

B 146.84 * .286 = 41.996

BV 131.75 * .333 = 43.872 <- what just happened there!?

 

Braton Vandal wins by 1.876 applied dps.

 

So lets examine bringing the figures together to find the middle of the road.

B (231.65 + 146.84) / 2 = 189.245 dps

BV (195.05 + 131.75) / 2 = 163.4 dps

 

Braton has higher dps by 25.845 dps while firing at a wall where accuracy has no effect at all.

 

With the accuracy factored strangely as before:

B 189.245 * .286 = 54.124 applied dps

BV 163.4 * .333 = 54.4122 applied dps <- wait it happened again!?

 

Braton Vandal has higher dps by .28 if using this model for accuracy that the accuracy value results in either a hit or miss.  There is a great deal more to this, for hitting enemies in the appropriate spots, at given ranges.  However, if hits were still made, but not to the correct weak point (hitting around it) then we would obviously see the Braton pull back ahead slightly, in specific scenarios.

 

Situations where you are close up, and missing is altogether unlikely, or you are fighting a boss who's weak point is easy to hit, you will see the Braton perform better, by 25.845 dps.  Over the span of 1 minute, you will be able to do an additional 1,550.7 dps, assuming you miss no shots, using 48.57 more bullets (avg) in comparison to the Braton Vandal.

 

The point is, as before, the Braton Vandal does more damage per shot.  In situations where accuracy matters, it also performs better and applying dps in the correct location.  You could argue due to the slower fire right that fewer additional bullets are fired at an enemy that is dead, making it even more efficient, when/if you do miss fewer bullets will miss, etc.  in the same 1 minute time frame where accuracy matters, you do an additional 17.29 dps (not nearly as great) and use 48.57 (avg) less bullets to do that dps.

 

The reason I took the average situation of reload vs. non-reload is that there are fights, in which it end before a reload is necessary.  However, this is the single largest way the Braton pulls ahead, in situations where you are reloading, the dps number becomes smaller, and specifically where accuracy is concerned the Braton Vandal clearly pulls ahead.

 

As I said before, the Braton Vandal has its place, and it is more ammo efficient.

 

So you use a blatantly wrong method of calculating accuracy-adjusted DPS and magically produce a whopping 0.3 extra DPS. Yeah this is totally an argument for how the Braton Vandal is so much stronger. In reality, my accuracy with the Braton and Vandal are nearly identical, and the Braton accuracy is before accuracy for weapons was increased across the board.

[plznohurtme]

The accuracy and in the case I was using it for is for as was thrown out earlier fighting bosses, as opposed to simply normal enemies which I agree using short bursts with a properly modded weapon will yield results that make accuracy less relevant if at all.  I tried to tie in some dps calculations that looked at the strengths and weaknesses of each, not sure if you've seen the post on the previous page since you seem to have been writing a rather long and detailed one yourself.  Mind vetting it a bit?

I think that without knowing what the accuracy values really do mean in terms of the game that it's hard to put a mathematical value to them. As someone pointed out previously the Grakata and Braton both share the same accuracy value, but the Grakata sprays everywhere if you hold down fire. I would love to know in terms of the engine what the accuracy values do actually mean, because most every weapon seems to shoot straight (at least for the first shot) and burst fire keeps shots grouped tighter across the board.

Once (if) we know what the accuracy value actually means then by all means it can be added in and calculated in terms of dps, but until then everyone really should stay away from it and use first hand experience.

Kinda a topic for another thread, but this is the predominant reason I think that DE needs to have a shooting range or trial weapon system. I built the Grakata because I saw its accuracy was the same as the Braton and thought to myself "well this should be an interesting weapon to play with" much to my surprise when in practice it has horrid recoil and so always has to be used in burst and even then long range shots are rather hard. I didn't regret my purchase by any means, but this is just one of those things that the numbers don't tell the story.

I would disagree with your conclusion that the Braton Vandal actually is better in practice than the Braton, but I would definitely agree that it's not as big of a variance as the numbers would indicate (which is why my proposal for changing the two doesn't actually match the dps between them).

Edited June 4, 2013 by plznohurtme

[KvotheTheArcane1]

-snip for length-

 

As I said before, the Braton Vandal has its place, and it is more ammo efficient.

Alright, fair enough my math could be wrong (mostly because I assumed 150% means 150% added, not a 50% bonus (i.e.30 instead of 50, that was my bad) But being more ammo efficient by ~50 shots isn't that much... I mean, that's like 2 and a half pick ups/ a clip of ammo.

 

However, one question, isn't the reload the same? I ignored the reload because it was the same, although in retrospect, this does make the vandal a little better in DPS as it reloads less often so it's more a sustained DPS

 

This isn't a dire pressing issue I feel (compared to dojo costs, rhino rework, etc) but a weapon tweak (to get it to the right place)

 

 

So you use a blatantly wrong method of calculating accuracy-adjusted DPS and magically produce a whopping 0.3 extra DPS. Yeah this is totally an argument for how the Braton Vandal is so much stronger. In reality, my accuracy with the Braton and Vandal are nearly identical, and the Braton accuracy is before accuracy for weapons was increased across the board.

could you explain more? his math seems ok to me...

Edited June 4, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[titom]

nice demonstration

 

To resume with 8 magazines :

Vanilla : 7380 damage -  47.96s to empty

Vandal : 7470 damage -  54.40s to empty 

So for the cost of a forma and the lost of little precision you can build a weapon with so much more dps.

 

I fear that future of Bratons Vandal is to rust in inventories.

Edited June 4, 2013 by titom

[Enot83]

So you use a blatantly wrong method of calculating accuracy-adjusted DPS and magically produce a whopping 0.3 extra DPS. Yeah this is totally an argument for how the Braton Vandal is so much stronger. In reality, my accuracy with the Braton and Vandal are nearly identical, and the Braton accuracy is before accuracy for weapons was increased across the board.

 

The argument is just odd, in that you can look at it as an either hit or miss, or if it was still to be treated as a hit but not in the premium location on the enemy and they have armor etc, that you would have to evaluate each enemy like this, the size of the hit locations, the damage reduction etc.

 

This was done for the sake of simplicity.  Either way you are looking at in the worst possible case a variance of 15% less damage on the Braton Vandal ignoring reload and accuracy, and only firing at a wall with unlimited health, to 10% including reloads.  Even less and in some cases where you are either hitting or missing the targets weak point firing additional rounds etc, the Braton Vandal potentially does better.

 

Is that a hard concept to grasp?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Plznohurtme, we've done some testing with some other weapons such as the furis and afuris seeing as they are more relevant to examine as the weapon systems are "identical" (used loosely), to see what the difference in accuracy was, and fire rate on that kind of variation, though unfortunately these figures on those weapons are not identical to the B and BV, but they can be used as some precedent.  If others can showcase accurate information regarding the exact weapons that will also go a long way.

 

Its not far from likely that some weapons have accuracy figures that are actually incorrect, which may be the cause of why we see for example the difference with the Grakata.

 

 

Alright, fair enough my math could be wrong (mostly because I assumed 150% means 150% added, not a 50% bonus (i.e.30 instead of 50, that was my bad) But being more ammo efficient by ~50 shots isn't that much... I mean, that's like 2 and a half pick ups/ a clip of ammo.

 

However, one question, isn't the reload the same? I ignored the reload because it was the same, although in retrospect, this does make the vandal a little better in DPS as it reloads less often so it's more a sustained DPS

 

This isn't a dire pressing issue I feel (compared to dojo costs, rhino rework, etc) but a weapon tweak (to get it to the right place)

 

 

could you explain more? his math seems ok to me...

 

Keep in mind that as I pointed out above to MJ12 with the variance, 50 bullets in one of these, is 10% of your total ammo.  So there is some consideration to give to that if there are situations, where the Vandal is performing as good/better than the Braton.

 

Yes in the regards to reload speeds even though they are the same, the problem for the Braton is its chewing through its clips faster, so you actually spend more time reloading it that you do with the Vandal, which effects its overall dps.

 

In the spirit of alternatives:

Lets suppose that the crit chance was increased to 12.5% on the BV, this not only increases its dps but this avenue may allow for customization of the weapon that goes a different direction mod build wise than the Braton. (maybe we'll see lol).

 

No reload:

B 20.5 * 11.3 = 231.65 DPS

BV 20.75 * 9.4 = 195.05 DPS

BV2 21.25 * 9.4 = 199.75 DPS (not much of a gain here)

BV3 21.75 * 9.4 = 204.45 DPS (looking much better)

 

We'd want to examine what a crit damage mod does in place of other mods possibly at this point.

 

 

With reload:

B (45*20.5) / [(45/11.3)+2.3] = 146.84

BV (45*20.75) / [(45/9.4)+2.3] = 131.75

BV2 (45*21.25) / [(45/9.4)+2.3] = 134.92 (still an 11.91 dps difference)

BV3 (45*21.75) / [(45/9.4)+2.3] = 138.1 (still an 8.73 dps difference)

 

I'll take a break for now regarding the calculations of modding and using Crit chance/crit damage mods in place of others.

 

If someone else cares to pick it up, for the v2 and v3 with higher crit chances, keep in mind the correct formulas for calculating these.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[jpvi1207]

Why do people use DPS as a measurement in this thread or any thread?

 

It assumes several things that are not safe assumptions

1. All shots hit

2. You're not doing burst fire

3. No head shots

4. No crits

 

Vandal has a higher accuracy and has a much easier time connecting every bullet to the target at any distance past 10 meters (most combats)

Higher accuracy means more head shots

More bullets hitting means more chances to crit

 

Vandal is still better against anything that isn't giant like Golem or Jackal.

people still think they are in RPG games, cuz the DPS is not the only thing counting, its your bility to handle the weapon that will define its true DPS, its not just spam click and fap in this game, cuz this is real live action

[KvotheTheArcane1]

people still think they are in RPG games, cuz the DPS is not the only thing counting, its your bility to handle the weapon that will define its true DPS, its not just spam click and fap in this game, cuz this is real live action

When balancing weapons, weapons DPS is a factor to consider (doesn't have to be DPS across the entire weapon list, but in category, I.e. snipers v snipers, or LMGs vs LMGs, etc) (also, nice to see you adding very constructive thoughts and well thought out typing and spelling and stuff.)

 

On the note of ability, this applies to all weapons, if they're good with a sub par assault rifle/sniper/etc they'd probably be even better with a good/"balanced" assault rifle/sniper/etc, so you can't really quantify that, and it's easier to make the guns more balanced.

[kaizoku222]

people still think they are in RPG games, cuz the DPS is not the only thing counting, its your bility to handle the weapon that will define its true DPS, its not just spam click and fap in this game, cuz this is real live action

 

.....This game is incredibly easy as an FPS. It is entirely valid to evaluate a weapon based on its maximum potential DPS. There is no special snowflake way to handle a gun to make it better, you either hit all your shots or you don't, and you have to be kinda bad to not get a really high accuracy in this game save a few awkward weapons.

 

DPS is the most universal stat that the guns can be balanced by since very very few have any added utility or specially defined roles.

[plznohurtme]

Enot83, on 04 Jun 2013 - 1:58 PM, said:

Plznohurtme, we've done some testing with some other weapons such as the furis and afuris seeing as they are more relevant to examine as the weapon systems are "identical" (used loosely), to see what the difference in accuracy was.

Its not far from likely that some weapons have accuracy figures that are actually incorrect, which may be the cause of why we see for example the difference with the Grakata.

While it's possible that this is the case I think the problem is actually the weapons using a different mechanic for the recoil. If you do 1-2 round bursts the Grakata is about as accurate as everything else, but it's really hard to do and if you hold down fire the Grakata seems to move around a lot different. It makes me wonder if there is a separate recoil value, which I honestly bet that there is.

There's a massive problem with comparing pistols to each other however, even though the accuracy "number" might be close to the same variance you're talking a 44-45% accuracy variance. In practical terms: I was enjoying leveling the Viper to 30 because it behaved similarly to the Grakata, however when I combined them for the Twin Viper I just didn't want to use them because no matter how little you tried to fire and limit bursts they sprayed everywhere. The Braton and Braton Vandal on the other hand have an accuracy variance of 16-17% which means even if these numbers meant something the accuracy would be substantially closer together.

Edited June 4, 2013 by plznohurtme

[Tyrian3k]

Topics like thes make me want to cry... so many complaints about a bit of fine tuning for 2 already powerful guns while actually weak guns remain forgotten.

[Meltina]

Why do people use DPS as a measurement in this thread or any thread?

 

It assumes several things that are not safe assumptions

1. All shots hit

2. You're not doing burst fire

3. No head shots

4. No crits

 

Vandal has a higher accuracy and has a much easier time connecting every bullet to the target at any distance past 10 meters (most combats)

Higher accuracy means more head shots

More bullets hitting means more chances to crit

 

Vandal is still better against anything that isn't giant like Golem or Jackal.

1. With how accurate most weapons are in this game its pretty safe to assume you get close to the same miss ratio with the two weapons. Under most combat ranges the diffrence is pretty unnoticable. Most weapons dont spread much past a corpus torso target if you zoom in.

2. Burst fire with a lower dps rifle and burst fire with a higher dps rifle you get the same diffrence over time.

3. Same ratio of head shots to both weapons.

4. Crits are averaged into the weapons dps.

 

Comparing two weapons used in two diffrent ways makes no sense. DPS is used as a standardized method to compare the two weapons.

 

The vandal should fit its descripton as a harder hitting slower rof braton. You can tell the braton buff was just from the angry yells for a vandal rerelease/nerf because not to long beore the braton buff the gun was nerfed from 17 damage to 16 damage. Getting nerfed and then giving it a 25% buff is a huge swing.

[Namacyst]

1. With how accurate most weapons are in this game its pretty safe to assume you get close to the same miss ratio with the two weapons. Under most combat ranges the diffrence is pretty unnoticable. Most weapons dont spread much past a corpus torso target if you zoom in.

2. Burst fire with a lower dps rifle and burst fire with a higher dps rifle you get the same diffrence over time.

3. Same ratio of head shots to both weapons.

4. Crits are averaged into the weapons dps.

 

Comparing two weapons used in two diffrent ways makes no sense. DPS is used as a standardized method to compare the two weapons.

 

The vandal should fit its descripton as a harder hitting slower rof braton. You can tell the braton buff was just from the angry yells for a vandal rerelease/nerf because not to long beore the braton buff the gun was nerfed from 17 damage to 16 damage. Getting nerfed and then giving it a 25% buff is a huge swing.

 

Atleast someone understood my reasoning.

 

People here can argue as much as they want... when you look back at how the Braton/Braton Vandal situation developed and on what grounds it is now the time to Buff the Braton Vandal because it is the right thing to do..the same as it was back then when they buffed the normal Braton.

 

All people use as a stupid argument is that it's "exclusive" .. so they throw reasoning overboard and ignore valid points only because they can't get it themselfes.. so why care? Even better.. why not do everything against that weapon so those self-entitled bastards don't get a buff for their toy... even if it is the right thing to do?

 

Prime gear is better than normal gear.. noone complains because if you want it... buy it. But it is the same as with the Vandal gear. It is exclusive. Exclusive the way that you have to pay a large amount of money at once for it to own a founders pack.. thats the prerequisite and for many people unachieveable. It's accepted because we all know... Prime Gear should be superior. For the Vandal you not only had to be at the right place at the right time. You had to play the game through times when it was unplayable and help the Developers to do matchmaking and server stresstests over the course of a weekend so that later (meaning now) everyone else could play a good game. You had to be one of the first in warframe. New people don't care because all they see is a weapon they can't get their hands on anymore and it makes them angry, jealous and biased.

 

But is this a reason for not letting those weapons have their own "personality" and stats? Is this a reason for not buffing a weapon that lost alot of it's intended potential through the course of game developement? The Braton Vandal should NOT be like a Braton... because it's a Vandal! A Lato Prime should not be like a Lato because it's a Prime! We have too many weapon reskins already, to many things that could also be removed again and noone would care. We need different weapons.. not the same in different colours. That's why DE should buff the Braton Vandal back to where it was .. ontop of the Braton foodchain.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Namacyst