Forma, Braton And Braton Vandal

[plznohurtme]

-snip-

We need different weapons.. not the same in different colours. That's why DE should buff the Braton Vandal back to where it was .. ontop of the Braton foodchain.

For most of 4 paragraphs you sound reasonable, and then you say that the Braton Vandal should be the best, and you wonder why people disagree with you. The Braton Vandal definitely deserves a buff and it should be different from the Braton, but this does not mean it should arbitrarily be better.

[MJ12]

could you explain more? his math seems ok to me...

 

He assumes that the accuracy numbers are the percentage of rounds which will hit. This is blatantly wrong. If you look at your accuracy over significant periods of time, only then will you know what the improvement in accuracy actually means.

 

For example, I have 56% accuracy with the Braton and 54% accuracy with the Braton Vandal. What this means for the guns is exactly what I've been pointing out: Outside of absolutely extreme edge cases the Vandal and Braton have nearly identical handling. Thus the higher accuracy figure does not actually contribute to an increased effective DPS.

 

The only rifle inaccurate enough for its inherent accuracy to actually reduce its effective DPS over normal combat ranges is the Gorgon.

[IspanoLFW1]

Atleast someone understood my reasoning.

 

People here can argue as much as they want... when you look back at how the Braton/Braton Vandal situation developed and on what grounds it is now the time to Buff the Braton Vandal because it is the right thing to do..the same as it was back then when they buffed the normal Braton.

 

All people use as a stupid argument is that it's "exclusive" .. so they throw reasoning overboard and ignore valid points only because they can't get it themselfes.. so why care? Even better.. why not do everything against that weapon so those self-entitled bastards don't get a buff for their toy... even if it is the right thing to do?

 

Prime gear is better than normal gear.. noone complains because if you want it... buy it. But it is the same as with the Vandal gear. It is exclusive. Exclusive the way that you have to pay a large amount of money at once for it to own a founders pack.. thats the prerequisite and for many people unachieveable. It's accepted because we all know... Prime Gear should be superior. For the Vandal you not only had to be at the right place at the right time. You had to play the game through times when it was unplayable and help the Developers to do matchmaking and server stresstests over the course of a weekend so that later (meaning now) everyone else could play a good game. You had to be one of the first in warframe. New people don't care because all they see is a weapon they can't get their hands on anymore and it makes them angry, jealous and biased.

 

But is this a reason for not letting those weapons have their own "personality" and stats? Is this a reason for not buffing a weapon that lost alot of it's intended potential through the course of game developement? The Braton Vandal should NOT be like a Braton... because it's a Vandal! A Lato Prime should not be like a Lato because it's a Prime! We have too many weapon reskins already, to many things that could also be removed again and noone would care. We need different weapons.. not the same in different colours. That's why DE should buff the Braton Vandal back to where it was .. ontop of the Braton foodchain.

 

Dismissing arguments due to not agreeing isn't really going to help you all that much. A weapon being exclusive, and you wanting it better than the non exclusive counterparts only helps our arguments that much more.

 

As I've said in another post, there's reasons companies tend not to release Exclusive items that are superior in some way to non exclusive items. Because it creates a chasm when new players come in.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Dismissing arguments due to not agreeing isn't really going to help you all that much. A weapon being exclusive, and you wanting it better than the non exclusive counterparts only helps our arguments that much more.

 

As I've said in another post, there's reasons companies tend not to release Exclusive items that are superior in some way to non exclusive items. Because it creates a chasm when new players come in.

I can agree, they should be roughly equal in terms of DPS, with the edge (polarity slot) then being given to the vandal as it's a reward for older players.

[IspanoLFW1]

I can agree, they should be roughly equal in terms of DPS, with the edge (polarity slot) then being given to the vandal as it's a reward for older players.

 

Well part of his complaint is that the polarity slot isn't as important now. But I cannot agree that the Brandal should be anymore than a Skin/Sound without Mastery Ranking.

 

And as i've said before, I'd never ask that they do anything like that. Doesn't mean I don't think it's wrong, I refuse to use the exclusive items from the Founders packs for the same reasoning.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

 

Yep, it's only real advantage (the polarity slot) was erased with the introduction of forma polarization. Should be buffed up above the normal version like it was originally.

 

Not having to spend 20 plat or a whole lot of time farming the void to polarize isn't an advantage? Braton Vandal comes right out of the box with a good polarity. Braton Standard needs you to level it to 30, burn a forma, then level it again just to get that single polarity. It's more accurate than the normal braton too, for not much ROF difference. It's got a higher crit chance. It looks cooler. The Braton standard's only advantage is its higher ROF.

[Meltina]

Dismissing arguments due to not agreeing isn't really going to help you all that much. A weapon being exclusive, and you wanting it better than the non exclusive counterparts only helps our arguments that much more.

 

As I've said in another post, there's reasons companies tend not to release Exclusive items that are superior in some way to non exclusive items. Because it creates a chasm when new players come in.

All hes been asking for is for it to be equal. With forma making the polarity worthless the vandal is a downgrade from the braton. He was just asking for the vandal to be equal to the braton while being diffrent as the weapon description says. He wanted more damage per bullet at slower fire rate and the same dps as a braton.

[Namacyst]

   

Not having to spend 20 plat or a whole lot of time farming the void to polarize isn't an advantage? Braton Vandal comes right out of the box with a good polarity. Braton Standard needs you to level it to 30, burn a forma, then level it again just to get that single polarity. It's more accurate than the normal braton too, for not much ROF difference. It's got a higher crit chance. It looks cooler. The Braton standard's only advantage is its higher ROF.

People still dont get it. Accuracy is no factor at all because you wont see a difference ingame. Forma is fairly easy to get... way easier than a potatoe. We talk unmodded potential and features here that justified the changes to the Braton/Brandal and those justifications are not given anymore. I repeat.. Braton Vandal was fairly better from the start, was slightly better after the Braton got buffed and now is worse than the Braton after Forma implementation but the Brandal was always intended as the better weapon when it comes to damage.. proof of that is the first release stats, the flavor text and the fact that the Lato Vandal is way better than a normal Lato because it is untouched so far. This thread is basically the same as all the threads back then which lead to the buff of the Braton so... just buff the Braton Vandal because it's its turn now... and if you find that argument vague and bulS#&$.. just research the old threads. It was the same.

[Namacyst]

All hes been asking for is for it to be equal. With forma making the polarity worthless the vandal is a downgrade from the braton. He was just asking for the vandal to be equal to the braton while being diffrent as the weapon description says. He wanted more damage per bullet at slower fire rate and the same dps as a braton.

Bingo. I want the Braton Vandal to be a Vandal again which means it needs to have more base damage than the normal Braton and more accuracy that you actually see and feel ingame.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Well part of his complaint is that the polarity slot isn't as important now. But I cannot agree that the Brandal should be anymore than a Skin/Sound without Mastery Ranking.

 

And as i've said before, I'd never ask that they do anything like that. Doesn't mean I don't think it's wrong, I refuse to use the exclusive items from the Founders packs for the same reasoning.

I personally say the free polarity IS important. As important as before forma? No, of course not. But if vandal and reg braton were both maxed level (and same DPS roughly) and I had a forma, personally I'd forma the vandal as now I'd get 2 polarities instead of one.

[Meltina]

I personally say the free polarity IS important. As important as before forma? No, of course not. But if vandal and reg braton were both maxed level (and same DPS roughly) and I had a forma, personally I'd forma the vandal as now I'd get 2 polarities instead of one.

 

Then theres people who farmed the void and have 70+ forma blueprints. Its like saying the stun being better than the hek before a potato matters.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Then theres people who farmed the void and have 70+ forma blueprints. Its like saying the stun being better than the hek before a potato matters.

Eh, I expect some people to have that, but a forma is kinda costly (24hours, rare mats, which aren't too much of a problem) and still, you got a forma, you can get 2 polarities or vs 1 polarity, or you can max it out in polarities for one less.

[Namacyst]

Eh, I expect some people to have that, but a forma is kinda costly (24hours, rare mats, which aren't too much of a problem) and still, you got a forma, you can get 2 polarities or vs 1 polarity, or you can max it out in polarities for one less.

And if you have format both weapons enough to put the same mods on them all max level.. the Braton is still better than the Brandal. But again.. that's...not...the...point. The point is: Vandal = More damage, less fire rate... but currently you have Braton = Same damage, higher fire rate.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Namacyst

[KvotheTheArcane1]

And if you have format both weapons enough to put the same mods on them all max level.. the Braton is still better than the Brandal. But again.. that's...not...the...point. The point is: Vandal = More damage, less fire rate... but currently you have Braton = Same damage, higher fire rate.

yes, what I'm saying though is, if they have the same damage, an advantage (not a huge one) is given to the vandal by the free polarity slot (this is good imo, doesn't need to be changed, the damage does however.)

[ClockworkSpectre]

Totally agree that the Braton Vandal needs a buff.  It is not only supposed to be visually different, it is supposed to be better, it is in its description.  Yes it sucks that it is no longer possible to get it, but thats what exclusive items are supposed to be.  For those that have it, it is pretty much a slap in the face, you got this exclusive weapon but there is no point in using it.  The Braton and Forma have basically made this weapon obsolete. 

 

The Lato Vandal is noticeably better than the lato and this is how it should be with the Braton and Braton Vandal. 

Edited June 5, 2013 by ClockworkSpectre

[IspanoLFW1]

Totally agree that the Braton Vandal needs a buff.  It is not only supposed to be visually different, it is supposed to be better, it is in its description.  Yes it sucks that it is no longer possible to get it, but thats what exclusive items are supposed to be.  For those that have it, it is pretty much a slap in the face, you got this exclusive weapon but there is no point in using it.  The Braton and Forma have basically made this weapon obsolete. 

 

The Lato Vandal is noticeably better than the lato and this is how it should be with the Braton and Braton Vandal. 

 

The reverse is also true. It's a slap in the face for it to be better for those who cannot get it. You don't have to agree, because it is. It's the same thing on both sides. You should want to use it because you like it, not because it's better. I know many who would use it solely for the sound, even if the stats were identical to the normal Braton.

 

Basically it's asking for their special toy to be made better than the non special toy everyone else has, because it's special. If you cannot see that, well then that's your problem

[KvotheTheArcane1]

The reverse is also true. It's a slap in the face for it to be better for those who cannot get it. You don't have to agree, because it is. It's the same thing on both sides. You should want to use it because you like it, not because it's better. I know many who would use it solely for the sound, even if the stats were identical to the normal Braton.

 

Basically it's asking for their special toy to be made better than the non special toy everyone else has, because it's special. If you cannot see that, well then that's your problem

Yes and no, it's their problem/fault/whatever for not playing and therefore not getting special gear, however I agree it shouldn't be "better" but a different way of the same DPS

[MJ12]

The reverse is also true. It's a slap in the face for it to be better for those who cannot get it. You don't have to agree, because it is. It's the same thing on both sides. You should want to use it because you like it, not because it's better. I know many who would use it solely for the sound, even if the stats were identical to the normal Braton.

 

Basically it's asking for their special toy to be made better than the non special toy everyone else has, because it's special. If you cannot see that, well then that's your problem

 

Yes, this. However, most people are asking to make it approximately the same, i.e. a damage of 24 (which would give it slightly lower DPS but better ammo efficiency than the regular Braton). Remember that.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

People still dont get it. Accuracy is no factor at all because you wont see a difference ingame.

No, I "get" it, I just think "it" is whiny nonsense. Accuracy is no factor at all, what? At close range maybe, but accuracy sure as hell matters at long range. It's the difference between zeroing in on heads and hitting a grineer's armored torso.

Forma is fairly easy to get... way easier than a potatoe.

And? How does that change the fact that the Braton Vandal doesn't need forma to get a polarity? How does that change the fact that the BV is good right out of the gate, while the Braton has to polarize and is less accurate and critilicious?

[IspanoLFW1]

Yes and no, it's their problem/fault/whatever for not playing and therefore not getting special gear, however I agree it shouldn't be "better" but a different way of the same DPS

 

It's someone's fault for missing it, I will not argue that point. And it's not even related to the point i'm making.

 

Exclusive items are fine. Exclusive items with differing in game stats that are non negligible, be it better overall or fit for a different play style, are not.

 

There's a reason no sane company, as i've said before, gives out exclusive items that are better or even situationally better than in game options. And this game, those exclusive also give mastery ranking, which right now doesn't mean a whole lot, but it could down the road. It all depends on the person playing and their playlist and what they play for. As a simple example, prior to Vauban, Someone without Exc Prime and 3/4 Prime/Vandal weapons at the time could not obtain Rank 10, even if they wanted to. Going to get "It doesn't even matter!" to that one, but that's for you, you're not everyone.

[IspanoLFW1]

Yes, this. However, most people are asking to make it approximately the same, i.e. a damage of 24 (which would give it slightly lower DPS but better ammo efficiency than the regular Braton). Remember that.

 

And I still cannot agree, I understand what they want. I also understand the OP actually wants it to be better, it's clear from some of his posts. I cannot agree to either. I refuse to use my founder items since even if the stats are only minor differences, I feel it's unfair to those who cannot get them.

[MJ12]

And I still cannot agree, I understand what they want. I also understand the OP actually wants it to be better, it's clear from some of his posts. I cannot agree to either. I refuse to use my founder items since even if the stats are only minor differences, I feel it's unfair to those who cannot get them.

 

The OP is kinda histronic that's true. However, the Braton Vandal being roughly equivalent to the Braton would not make it 'unfair' to those who can't get them. Just different.

[IspanoLFW1]

The OP is kinda histronic that's true. However, the Braton Vandal being roughly equivalent to the Braton would not make it 'unfair' to those who can't get them. Just different.

 

Something that might fit someone's play style better. Something that gives one 3,000 Mastery Ranking that they might need to get a new rank(Obviosuly not ATM, enough to hit 10 just fine, not possible for 11 iirc). Fairness is all in how you look at it. Different is all it takes when it comes to in game stats.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

And I still cannot agree, I understand what they want. I also understand the OP actually wants it to be better, it's clear from some of his posts. I cannot agree to either. I refuse to use my founder items since even if the stats are only minor differences, I feel it's unfair to those who cannot get them.

That's your personal choice to not use the weapons, and shouldn't affect those who DO want something different/same dps with a different take on it. The mastery is another bonus of the exclusive item, just like the polarity is.

 

edit: as new gears is added, it won't matter if someone can get a extra mastery points (esp for those who bought hunter and above imo, they payed money, and got an advantage, in this case ranking up faster) because DE will be adding newer and newer weapons, so the mastery won't matter eventually because of how much you need.

 

(my convoluted point is that there will be enough weapons to reach max rank eventually)

Edited June 5, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[IspanoLFW1]

That's your personal choice to not use the weapons, and shouldn't affect those who DO want something different/same dps with a different take on it. The mastery is another bonus of the exclusive item, just like the polarity is.

 

You're right, it is my choice. The bolded part is important here. The fact that it is exclusive does just that. I cannot get something similar with a different take since it's not possible. The mastery being a bonus is yet another in game "perk" that is held over anyone's head who cannot get it, even if the player is not doing it themselves.