Shield Gates For Players

[EmptyDevil]

As under the first quote I've made here, I would fully support shield gating were it not to involve the invincibility factor (and to ignore it would also simplify the development of such).

 

I don't particularly agree with full removal but a shorter duration is something i'd consider.

 

I think the invulnerability is fine but it could be too long at 1 second. It's still basically the same as getting 1 shot when multiple hits land simultaneously. I think a 0.25s invuln would be fine for that. 1 second is actually a long time.

 

1 second seems pretty good to me as well due to the number of enemies and their combined fire rate. I would lower to 0.5s if i considered making it lower.

[climatiseur]

While I like the idea, I think it's kinda tricky to balance it with some of the abilities you listed above.

 

For example, Iron Skin and Warding Halo are basically just another form of overshield (with CC immunity). If the SCI is flagged on cooldown, does it mean they could get 1-shot with the ability on, but won't if they never put it on? Would it somehow make those abilities counter-productive?

 

Similar case on Absorb, invisibility and even Vex armor, although these abilities function similar as damage reduction, they are not being used exactly in this way. I am wondering if the SCI cooldown on those abilities are fair or not.

 

All in all I think it is a cool idea, which similar things has been discussed before, I guess it needs to take some time to look into details of how it can be implemented with coordination of the related abilities to make them fair and balance. And in fact it should be implemented IMO because right now shield is just comparatively bad to health and armor.

[Inmemoratus]

While I like the idea, I think it's kinda tricky to balance it with some of the abilities you listed above.

 

For example, Iron Skin and Warding Halo are basically just another form of overshield (with CC immunity). If the SCI is flagged on cooldown, does it mean they could get 1-shot with the ability on, but won't if they never put it on? Would it somehow make those abilities counter-productive?

 

Similar case on Absorb, invisibility and even Vex armor, although these abilities function similar as damage reduction, they are not being used exactly in this way. I am wondering if the SCI cooldown on those abilities are fair or not.

 

All in all I think it is a cool idea, which similar things has been discussed before, I guess it needs to take some time to look into details of how it can be implemented with coordination of the related abilities to make them fair and balance. And in fact it should be implemented IMO because right now shield is just comparatively bad to health and armor.

Iron Skin is invulnerable for like 3 seconds when first activated. I haven't looked at the others but that's probably why the OP thinks abilities like that should put the SCI on cooldown.

[Tatersail]

Shield gates can be exploited (see Diablo 3, Borderlands 2)

I can see mag pushing 2 keeping everyones shields up for invul on gate.

 

Gates for pets would be really nice.

 

I would remove the annoying 1 shot from a RNG Grineer hit-scan you can't even see while mid parkour.

 

 

IMO simply allow armor to effect shields

Double or triple health, the disparity between player health and player damage removes much of the games tanking and healing, Trinity 1, Equinox mend, oberon heal are simply a downtime top up to your buffer after you survive a fight, there is almost no point healing while taking damage vs a level 100+

 

At a certain point in this game, Shields, armor, health healing become irrelevant, as all hits kill instantly on any frame

Edited January 5, 2016 by Tatersail

[Varzy]

I don't particularly agree with full removal but a shorter duration is something i'd consider.

 

 

1 second seems pretty good to me as well due to the number of enemies and their combined fire rate. I would lower to 0.5s if i considered making it lower.

 

The base time could be 0.5s, and the window would increase depending on how high your total shields are (ignoring overshields). For arguments sake, a frame with 300 Shields would have a 0.5s SCI period, while a 600 Shield frame could receive up to 1s SCI.

 

This way, the mechanic would also benefit high-shields frames more, who are generally squishier, than it would for Armor/Health frames (with the exceptions of Rhino and Frost, of course. Could Snow Globe flag SCI?).

[EmptyDevil]

For example, Iron Skin and Warding Halo are basically just another form of overshield (with CC immunity). If the SCI is flagged on cooldown, does it mean they could get 1-shot with the ability on, but won't if they never put it on? Would it somehow make those abilities counter-productive?

 

You misinterpreting it, only the SCI would be flagged but shield gating will not stop. If Rhino takes a hit that could remove Iron Skin, Shields, and health in a single blow the damage wouldn't touch the health. He wouldn't receive the brief period of invulnerability that would protect him from next shot because SCI was flagged and went into cooldown as Iron Skin dropped.

 

Apply this to all abilities that fall under SCI flagging.

 

All in all I think it is a cool idea, which similar things has been discussed before, I guess it needs to take some time to look into details of how it can be implemented with coordination of the related abilities to make them fair and balance. And in fact it should be implemented IMO because right now shield is just comparatively bad to health and armor.

 

 

Thank you. I'll probably put more examples soon for Iron Skin-like abilities for more clarification.

 

Iron Skin is invulnerable for like 3 seconds when first activated. I haven't looked at the others but that's probably why the OP thinks abilities like that should put the SCI on cooldown.

 

It's mainly because they add an extra barrier between the enemy's damage and their health, so it wouldn't be fair for self-protection abilities to get a SCI. It would lead to abuse of the mechanic because their health would be impossible to touch if they have energy.

 

The base time could be 0.5s, and the window would increase depending on how high your total shields are (ignoring overshields). For arguments sake, a frame with 300 Shields would have a 0.5s SCI period, while a 600 Shield frame could receive up to 1s SCI.

 

This way, the mechanic would also benefit high-shields frames more, who are generally squishier, than it would for Armor/Health frames (with the exceptions of Rhino and Frost, of course. Could Snow Globe flag SCI?).

 

Interesting idea but i'm not sure how to go about it. Might have to base it on base shields or make it different for each frame.

 

I didn't put Snow Globe under the list because players need to stand in the bubble to be safe and enemies could still walk inside. Might reconsider if a scenario for abuse pops up.

[Inmemoratus]

I have an idea for the shield scaling. SCI could give a flat 0.5s invuln period regardless followed by a 2 second armor increase equal to 25% of your maximum shield. So if you have 1200 maximum shield you get 400 armor for 2 seconds. The total duration of protection including invuln and armor would be 2.5s.

[EmptyDevil]

I have an idea for the shield scaling. SCI could give a flat 0.5s invuln period regardless followed by a 2 second armor increase equal to 25% of your maximum shield. So if you have 1200 maximum shield you get 400 armor for 2 seconds. The total duration of protection including invuln and armor would be 2.5s.

 

I rather not add another layer of protection for built-in mechanics. Your idea would make a great mod though.

[Inmemoratus]

I rather not add another layer of protection for built-in mechanics. Your idea would make a great mod though.

Well, you could always just depend on new mods to benefit the shield reliant frames. Just the existence of mods that scale off your shields would benefit them a lot, regardless of triggering off SCI or another mechanic.

 

I think DE should add mods that scale off shields either way. Right now high shield frames don't have any mods that allow them to take advantage of their shields.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[EmptyDevil]

Updated post with example 3 using Rhino.

Edited January 5, 2016 by EmptyDevil

[RiouHotaru]

I like this because Mass Effect 3's Multiplayer used a Shield Gate, gave players a bit of an edge against overwhelming enemy numbers of escalating strength.  And some characters actually USED the Shield Gate as part of their mechanics.

[EmptyDevil]

Updated post by adding Penumbra to the SCI flag list.

[TheJuicyLucy]

I like the idea as but i think it would be a bit to powerful and could ruin the balance this game has.

[EmptyDevil]

I like the idea as but i think it would be a bit to powerful and could ruin the balance this game has.

 

How would it be too powerful?

[Inmemoratus]

You know, I still like this idea, but I started using Quick Thinking on pretty much every non-tank frame and now I'm wondering, do we really even need this? Or would it be too much as a baseline shield feature?

 

QT handles huge bursts that my shield can't handle. Then I have a chance to roll away and find cover or do something (use focus for example) to allow my shield to recover. When I react quickly enough I don't actually lose much energy.

 

Shield Gate would provide yet another safety net against burst on top of QT, so maybe it would be more balanced if it was a mod. Like if I want two really good safety nets, I should have to use two mods.

 

I mean if you think about it, the design of mods is already forcing us to use mod slots on survivability. Shield Gate as a baseline feature would severely devalue those mods.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Epsik-kun]

And I still think, that there's no need for the actual invulnerability. Inability to die should suffice.

[EmptyDevil]

You know, I still like this idea, but I started using Quick Thinking on pretty much every non-tank frame and now I'm wondering, do we really even need this? Or would it be too much as a baseline shield feature?

 

Quick Thinking is a health gate that is only really viable on Warframes with a high base energy. It also takes a mod slot and drains energy with a high chance of stagger. A shield gate wouldn't be too much as a baseline shield feature because it would really help in balancing a lot of aspects in WF.

 

 

QT handles huge bursts that my shield can't handle. Then I have a chance to roll away and find cover or do something (use focus for example) to allow my shield to recover. When I react quickly enough I don't actually lose much energy.

 

 

The player is left with 2 health and will die immediately unless they heal. Still Quick Thinking =/= Shield Gate.

 

 

Shield Gate would provide yet another safety net against burst on top of QT, so maybe it would be more balanced if it was a mod. Like if I want two really good safety nets, I should have to use two mods.

 

I mean if you think about it, the design of mods is already forcing us to use mod slots on survivability. Shield Gate as a baseline feature would severely devalue those mods.

 

 

A shield gate would add an essential feature for shields. It shouldn't be a mod at all and this concept is presented in a way to make sure it is fair and balance across all frames. In no way would a shield gate feature devalue those mods. As a mod it would overshadow and devalue Vitality, Redirection, and Vigor because a new meta of only using Quick Thinking and Shield Gate mod would be born. Mechanics that would help the overall quality of gameplay should not be turned into a mod.

[Epsik-kun]

And now please define the meaning of "invulnerability" without "Inability to die".

Incorrect question. Inability to die without invulnerability, on the other hand, will only prevent you from being one-shotted through your shields, but aside from that won't protect you from damage. If you get hit through your shields for more than your EHP you will end up not with full HP + a second of damage immunity, but just with 1 HP, that can't get lower for this one second (or half a second). Meaning, the change won't have any effect on blows that aren't a literal one-shots through shields. Or total incoming damage over one(or a half of) second to be more precise.

[bl4ckhunter]

i'm in perfect agreement with the shield gate part but the shield collapse invulnerability is somewhat too convoluted for something of a base feature, it makes it easy to exploit it and isn't that noticeable imo, i'd suggest to replace the invulnerability on shield break with a LoS aoe knockdown (think fire eximus "fire blast") that recharges when you reach max shield capacity, it still does the job of stopping enemies form firing at you for an handful of seconds but you don't have to make all those exclusions with abilities and stuff

[EmptyDevil]

i'm in perfect agreement with the shield gate part but the shield collapse invulnerability is somewhat too convoluted for something of a base feature, it makes it easy to exploit it and isn't that noticeable imo, i'd suggest to replace the invulnerability on shield break with a LoS aoe knockdown (think fire eximus "fire blast") that recharges when you reach max shield capacity, it still does the job of stopping enemies form firing at you for an handful of seconds but you don't have to make all those exclusions with abilities and stuff

 

SCI wouldn't be exploitable as i have detailed. It would be a bit noticeable against high firerate enemies and hordes. A knockdown wave seems more prone to exploits and it is extra unnecessary CC - i think something subtle is the way. That idea would make a good mod though; It reminds me of a mod DE was thinking of creating called Reactive Shields(Blinded enemies within x meters when shields dropped).

[EmptyDevil]

Incorrect question. Inability to die without invulnerability, on the other hand, will only prevent you from being one-shotted through your shields, but aside from that won't protect you from damage. If you get hit through your shields for more than your EHP you will end up not with full HP + a second of damage immunity, but just with 1 HP, that can't get lower for this one second (or half a second). Meaning, the change won't have any effect on blows that aren't a literal one-shots through shields. Or total incoming damage over one(or a half of) second to be more precise.

 

Sounds like you're describing a health gate. 

[Epsik-kun]

Sounds like you're describing a health gate. 

My original suggestion was based on Borderlands' health gate after all. I already said that means of rapid healing in Warframe, especially Life Strike would lead to the same abuse it had in Borderlands if it to be implemented the same way, so linking it to the shields instead of the health seems like a better idea.

[Kainosh]

Not sure if that is a good idea.  

 

 

I rarely get oneshots...And I do high lvl stuff frequently.

 

Hell, im totally fine with how shields work now.

 

Shield already blocks most of the damage you get.  Maintaining high amount of shields and using cover is what you should do if you dont want to get oneshot. 

 

Also...Even at high lvl there is NO enemy that can kill full  HP/Shield  warframe with only ONE bullet.   Usually its 2 - 3 hits.

 

Strongest damage output i encountered on Sortie lvl 100 Survival.  Corpus Tech(Supra) with single projectile did roughly 3/4 of my EHP (Volt with Redirection. No overshields).

 

Trust me, delaying death for 1 second will not really help.

  If you are not carefull, you gonna die anyway.  And if you are, you dont need any "gate" in your shield.

[Epsik-kun]

Trust me, delaying death for 1 second will not really help.

Trust me, it will.

[LilLemay]

Toxic Ancient is not impressed.

Go home toxic ancient.

 

And I really like this idea, DE pls