Limbo Revisit Concept From A Limbophile

[Tate_LeTerre]

Don't get any ideas about "Limbophile" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 

 

*NOTE* All of this is my opinion. There is no definite way to remake Limbo, just ways which I or others think is a good idea. Do not take any of this as absolute. *ENDNOTE*

 

I like Limbo. Like, a lot. He’s my most played frame at the moment, and easily my favorite. He’s pretty much my go-to for Exterminates, Rescues, Interceptions, and Captures, and the only frame I dare to do Hive missions with. As a support frame, in the right hands he’s only outclassed by Trinity (kinda hard to beat, honestly), but his roles in doing support are pretty different from other support frames.

 

However, with all my praise, I must admit that the guy still needs a bit of tuning. In order to understand how he should (in my opinion, of course; none of this is absolute) be fixed, we need to know his major roles. In my experience, he has 2. Not to say he doesn’t have others, but these two are the principles with which my Limbo play operates.

 

1: Pinpoint assassin. By staying in the rift and having Surge on, and with the right weapons, Banish is generally a death sentence for enemies of any type. Best used on heavy units, an on-point Limbo is able to precisely take out the greatest threats before they even can be threats.

 

2: Guardian angel. A well-placed Banish can either put a high-priority target causing a lot of damage to a teammate in the rift to be dealt with shortly, or save an ally from an all-sides pummeling. Add in the Haven augment, and Limbo turns into a makeshift medic as well. And if you can’t save a teammate, you can just rift yourself and get them back up with near-absolute impunity.

 

So with those out there, let’s actually start talking rework aspects.

 

Rift in general: add the ability to pick up ammo, mods, health and the like. I can’t think of a reason not to do this. It’s admittedly pretty annoying in its current state. A small QoL fix that would be really helpful. Additionally, I’d add a small damage buff against enemies in the rift. Again, nothing too big; I’d say somewhere from 25 to 50%. Enough so that there’s a bit of a tactical edge for non-Limbo players when battling enemies in the rift. For Limbo himself, I’ll get to that.

 

Passive: Since frames are getting passive effects, I don’t see why Limbo shouldn’t. My ideas for this are twofold. First, and the better option in my opinion, is an increased revive rate. Only about 20% or so, nothing too drastic. In doing so, it’d make his role as a Guardian Angel easier; get your allies up quicker, so everyone can get back to doing their thing. It also fits his general gentleman theme. The other idea is a small amount of evasion, similar to the Agility Drift mod. Basically, make it slightly harder for enemies to hit him from range. As the rift master, it makes sense for him to be a bit more out-of-phase with normal space than other frames. 6% is what Agility Drift does, so I’d think it shouldn’t be more than 3% as a passive.

 

As for abilities, I’ll start with Banish. The major complaint I’ve seen is its single-target nature, saying that it should be an AoE ability. This is a complaint that I both agree and disagree with. I agree in the sense that Warframe is a horde-based game, and that often times targeting a single enemies at a time is pretty inefficient compared to what other frames can do. But I also disagree, since one of Limbo’s big things is being able to decide exactly who is and is not allowed into his rift, allowing himself to mano-a-mano with whatever he chooses. My proposed fix allows the complaint to be resolved while still keeping his calling card intact: use a tap vs. hold mechanic similar to Ivara. With this, tapping the power button will draw only the targeted enemy into the rift; it’ll function exactly like the current Banish. Holding the power button will perform a longer animation (possibly two-handed) which draws in the targeted enemy, and any other enemies within a certain range. Each additional target would cost more energy, but not much; I’d say 2-5 additional, scaling with efficiency, would suffice. Banished targets still get knocked down, of course. Adding in this option retains his ability as a Pinpoint Assassin while gaining the ability to potentially pinpoint assassinate many enemies at once.

 

I’ll tackle Rift Walk and Rift Surge at once. Basically, I think these abilities should be merged into one. This way, activating Rift Walk will also confer the Rift Surge damage increase, which itself would retain its ability to be modded for strength. While active, this overrides the theoretical passive damage increase of the rift, so a base Rift Walk “surge” buff of 50% will not increase to 75-100% factoring in the passive. However, if the Limbo is only rifted because of a Cataclysm (i.e. not Rift Walking), then he will still get the passive damage buff, but no more. I’m combining the two to make room for another, more immediately satisfying 3rd ability, whilst also retaining all the current functionality of the two current abilities. I would say, though, that the base energy cost of the new Rift Walk should be increased to 25-35, to compensate for the increased function. Otherwise, this combined ability would work exactly like the two abilities it’s synthesized from, just combined into one.

 

So, new third ability time. Let’s call it “Rift Leap.” It would function as an “infinite range” free-aim teleport with a few gimmicks. One, it has a short casting animation. Not long, but long enough so that it’s not instant. Second, if you are in the rift at the time of using this ability, you will exit the rift and emit a shockwave once you reach your destination, knocking down (but not rifting) all enemies within range. I’m torn currently on whether this shockwave should do damage, but I’m currently leaning no. If you use the ability while not in the rift, this effect does not occur. Additionally, while the range is theoretically infinite, there is a penalty for leaping too far. Basically, there will be a radial “safe range” from your position, within which there will be no drawback. Outside of this range, though, you will begin taking damage, with more damage being taken the farther you are outside of the safe range. The ability will never kill you, though; I'm thinking you would be left with a minimum of 5 health. I’m thinking the ability would benefit from efficiency (of course :P) and range, with range increasing both the range of the shockwaves if you leap while rifted, as well as the size of the safe zone. This ability is inspired from the Limbo Theorem, where the original was destroyed after he tried to take “too big a jump”. It mostly serves as a way to get from place to place quickly, which greatly helps his ability as a Guardian Angel; if a teammate requests aid, you can be there more quickly than ever before. Additionally, it just seems logical that the master of dimensions would be able to leap through them.

 

Lastly, Cataclysm. This fix is quite simple: make it so that the entire area in the bubble, not just the enemies, will be considered rifted while inside. Storage containers, lockers, fire hazards, consoles, if it can be interacted with, it enters the rift if under a Cataclysm. This means consoles can be hacked from inside the rift provided both it and its hacker are in the rift. Also, I’d make it so that datamasses, power cells,  void keys, and any similar objects can be taken into a Cataclysm, and their targets can be interacted with as well, so long as both the target and object are in the rift at the time. Basically, make this ability intuitive to the concept of rifting an area.

 

tl;dr: Add pickup picking up in the rift, add a small universal damage buff against rifted enemies, add a passive increased revive rate or evasion for Limbo, make Limbo’s Banish a tap vs. hold where the tap does the current Banish and the hold is an AoE banish, merge Rift Walk and Rift Surge into one ability, add a teleport ability to Limbo with some conditions, and make Cataclysm rift the area, not the enemies.

So, those are my ideas for a Limbo revisit, coming from someone who really likes Limbo. Lemme know what you think. Hopefully we’ll get something good going by the time DE takes a look at Limbo soon™ :P

 

I wrote most of this at 4 in the morning. If you need further explanation, let me know.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Uzenvard

[Datsher]

Don't get any ideas about "Limbophile" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 

It's too late. What has been imagined can not be undone.

[AethonWalker]

All in favor of calling this reworked magician's 3rd 'Vanishing Act' say aye

Needs the "Now you see me, now you don't," flavor-text.

[AstroLord]

Because of you now want the concept of a new skin for Limbo but I do not even dream even because he does not have immortal skin yet.

And Again: PLEASE NO AOE, AOE WILL DESTROY BANISH OF LIMBO.

Edited December 31, 2015 by AstroLord

[Tate_LeTerre]

PLEASE NO AOE, AOE WILL DESTROY BANISH OF LIMBO.

 

If you'd said that before Ivara came out, I'd agree. But with the tap vs. hold mechanic, more flexibility is allowed. Basically, this idea gives the option to do an AoE Banish if you hold the power button. Just tapping would do the same Banish that we currently have.

 

I mainly say this to allow greater flexibility in Limbo loadouts. As of right now, using an explosive/AoE weapon on Limbo is a terrible inefficiency. Why bring an Ogris if you can only Banish one d00d at a time? It would give Limbo the same "free kill" potential that he currently has, but with the optional ability to do it to more enemies at once.

 

I play Limbo too. I know how important it is to have absolute control of what's in the rift. I'd never propose anything that permanently takes away Limbo's ability to choose. I just want to see Limbo have more kill potential. Rest assured, I'm not trying to take away the thing that makes Limbo who he is. Just a way to optionally enhance it. :)

 

 

All in favor of calling this reworked magician's 3rd 'Vanishing Act' say aye

Needs the "Now you see me, now you don't," flavor-text.

 

I like that name a lot better, actually. Fits his theme better, too. You've earned a +1, good sir.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Uzenvard

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I refuse to agree with picking up items in the rift or interacting with objects. There has to be some drawbacks and I'm fine with that one.

You can already hack terminals to remove alarms. That is more than enough.

Rift Surge should be Limbos Passive or at least have it tied to Rift Walk affected by power Str.

I'm on the fence with multi banish. Makes me think its going to make Limbo too easy. Enemies coming your way while hacking? No problem. Hold down special and multibanish everyone so you can ignore them in one full swipe.

I do like Rift leap though.

[DrBorris]

I am on the fence with Limbo. While I think he has quite a few issues and NEEDS to be looked at again, I don't know exactly how to do it.

 

On one hand we have the OP, which is basically "fixing" his current kit because what we have now is, well, broken. He can be used effectively in many scenarios, but DE really needs to make the rift more flexible.

 

Or on the other hand he could get a total kit rework. By this I mean the rework of who he is. You call him a "pinpoint assassin" and "guardian angel", and these are the two most accurate terms I have heard for him. Part of me wishes for almost a Nyx like role sometimes, and maybe even with a splash of scaling damage, but still keeping the current troll assassin and OP reviver characteristics. The ideas with Cataclysm being completely reworked into something that crushes the rift or something like that always intrigue me, the thought of a VERY skill based nuke and potential "ultimate 'oh sh!t" button" sound pretty cool. Honestly, if Banish becomes a targeted AoE would Cataclysm being only being able to add the ability to bring objects into the rift be worth its use? I am not totally sure either way on this, but people already say now that Limbo has three of the same ability. There is also this one really cool idea I once heard about Limbo having two sets of powers (Equinox style). One while in the rift and one while outside the rift.

 

 

I am torn. I almost want there to be another "Rift" frame because there are so many things they could do with it, but I can see many issues with two separate frames both interacting with the Rift (The ultimate synergy?). Either way, good suggestions OP, +1.

[bl4ckhunter]

we need a stiky limbo(and volt) rework megathread, there's multiple limbo rework threads made per day and it doesn't make sense to keep so many

 

anyways i''ve already said in various threads limbo needs one change, you can tie it to rift walk, rift surge or simply being in the rift but enemies hit by limbo with weapons while in the rift need to be pulled in the rift, they would still start taking  damage only from hits recieved after they were pulled in the rift obiviously, maybe even with a 0.2-0.5 delay if it sounds too op even if  i don't think it's the case.

 

with this there goes the need for AOE banish and most of limbo's clunkyness when dealing with hordes, becouse let's face it, one or 5 at a time the reason most people scorn limbo is becouse having to spam 1 to even be able to do anything to enemies is pretty darn annoying, address that and  you fix limbo, be it what i suggested( i think it's the most elegant way), an autobanish mechanic similiar to word on fire in application (namely x time an enemy around you gets banished) or simply something that banishes every enemy that gets within a set range from you.

 

whatever it is limbo NEEDS something is an effect centered on limbo that banishes one or very few enemies at time automatically based on some kind of condition in order to make limbo's gameplay flow a bit faster than the current flow of riftwalk->banish->melee ground finisher/shotgun shot->banish etch.... becouse as it now is it's simply a drag. it's not even the fact that not viable becouse it IS viable in most situations, it's just that's limbo kit's flow is too slow compared to the rest of the game.

[AethonWalker]

Looking at the other comments so far, I'd like to say that I do like the ability to make Banish a charge-cast, with the aoe slowly increasing up to a small bubble like with Ivara's Cloak arrow. I'd say that the animation would need to be made longer for the cast (for obvious reasons), and Cataclysm would need more to it to make it worth using. Maybe Cataclysm could do some kind of DoT effect to enemies, collecting the energy it saps from them for its final explosion to deal more damage. The augment, Cataclysmic Continuum, would flow quite nicely with it. If the DoT isn't up anybody's alley, it could be used for a buffing/supporting effect of some sort, such as increased stats the longer it is up (to a cap of course), or possibly a small regeneration factor other than just energy. It would be really nice to see Cataclysm as a serious tactical nuke instead of something people bark at you for using regardless of how you use it.

[NKDG]

And that makes 2 suggestions for a 3 that actually flow with his purpose ingame that I've seen. +1

[PrVonTuckIII]

YES! YES TO RIFT LEAP! YES YES YES!!!

 

Ahem...

 

Good job sir. I also enjoy Limbo, but feel that he could use some changes. 

 

1) Banish Change - On board. I did a similar suggestion some time ago. I wholeheartedly support it.

 

2) So basically, you're saying Rift Surge should be his passive, right? Albeit, nerfed so Limbo isn't OP in the Rift and in Cataclysm. Ok. I can work with this.

 

3) Rift Leap -----> YES! I love the idea of a teleport, and I love that to balance it, you added stuff from the quest! Genius! I personally propose a "safe range" of 25 metres at max rank, and taking an additional 50-100 damage for every 5 metres more, with the safe range distance being affected by range mods.

 

4) Catacylsm - Honestly, I'm cool with Cataclysm, as it can be very useful in combination with the augment and rift surge. But sure, I'm up for it.

 

EDIT: A question. For Rift Leap, lets say you are in the normal plane, and you Rift Leap. Will you end up in the chosen location in the Rift, or in the normal plane? And vice versa for if you teleport in the rift? Will you stay in the Rift, or end up in the normal plane?

Oh and Aye. I want it to be called Vanishing Act too.

Edited December 31, 2015 by PrVonTuckIII

[Guest]

The press and hold mechanic completely wrecks gameplay when hosts are lagging. Combining 2 and 3 is not really good as it may prompt DE to increase the energy cost, which may prove very dangerous in high levels. The leap is really cool but health regen may prove to be hard, and when range mods become compulsory it takes away the pod protection from Limbo, taking away the defensive aspect from a snowglobe substitute. I'm actually cool with the cataclysm changes, nothing more.

[Archwizard]

Funny thing is, a lot of these ideas are ones I've been parroting myself for months now - merging Rift Walk and Rift Surge, Cataclysm banishing objects, even a teleport effect that changes with your Rift state. However, I hadn't yet considered the "tap vs hold" mechanic for Quiver applying to Banish to make it an AoE; for the most part, I've just been content to say "if you want an AoE Banish, use Cataclysm." Would be a good use of the tech, though. (Gonna put a link to your thread in the megathread I'm running...)

 

One thing I don't see mentioned in here: Making the Rift state more consistent where interactive objects are concerned. Presently, Tenno can never hack Grineer consoles when in the Rift and can sometimes hack Corpus consoles, while enemies can always play with consoles regardless of faction or Rift state. I know you covered having Cataclysm banish consoles so players in the Rift can use them, but Banish should lock out enemies who aren't in the same Rift state too.

In my experience, players in the Rift also cannot shoot at objects like Antimatter Drop, even if the Drop is in a Cataclysm with them.

Finally, Tenno in the Rift can't stand on buttons in the Law of Retribution raid or carry datamasses/batteries. I would understand if this applied to Banish, but if Cataclysm is involved, it should bring in the object too, right?

 

Passive: Since frames are getting passive effects, I don’t see why Limbo shouldn’t. My ideas for this are twofold. First, and the better option in my opinion, is an increased revive rate. Only about 20% or so, nothing too drastic. In doing so, it’d make his role as a Guardian Angel easier; get your allies up quicker, so everyone can get back to doing their thing. It also fits his general gentleman theme. The other idea is a small amount of evasion, similar to the Agility Drift mod. Basically, make it slightly harder for enemies to hit him from range. As the rift master, it makes sense for him to be a bit more out-of-phase with normal space than other frames. 6% is what Agility Drift does, so I’d think it shouldn’t be more than 3% as a passive.

 

The Revive rate sounds more like something up Trinity's alley (Guardian Angel or not), but I do like the Evasion buff for exactly the reason you described. Keep in mind, the Drift mods have intentionally reduced stats to fit into an Exilus slot, so having it be equal to or even greater than 6% seems fine (especially considering how small 6% effective mitigation really is).

Edited January 3, 2016 by Archwizard