Weapons/powers Will Never Be Balanced Until Armor Is Removed From The Game

[BlueIstari]

Max reflex coil drops the charge time down to almost nothing.  If you think that, you're just not releasing your melee button soon enough since if you keep it held down it will still do the stock melee charge speed.

 

I'm pretty sure this is outdated information. My Gram fully benefits from a maxed Reflex Coil without releasing early.

[MJ12]

Stop aiming for the chest then :|

 

Medium Grineer have full armor on their heads, they just take triple headshot damage which means it seems like they're unarmored. It's only Ancients and Crawlers which have unarmored hit locations.

 

Of course with shotguns you can get like 90% AP and even rifles can get 60%, and Grineer take 1.5x damage from AP, so you're still doing a ton of damage if you have a high-level AP mod.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

It's kind of a "far out" idea since all of the armor piercing mods would be moot as well. Synxxx, you're right that something should be adjusted, but removing armor from the game is a bit much.

armor piercing is not the same as armor ignoring. AP is an element of its own. Where as the issue OP is talking about is the only thing that makes high levelled enemies a "challenge" IE: stat scaling turning them into massive ammo sinks and rendering most of the weapons in this game nearly useless against anything past a certain level. It's a very, very lazy tactic.

[Vaskadar]

Kinda makes me think that after a certain point health should just stop scaling.

[Excitonex]

armor piercing is not the same as armor ignoring. AP is an element of its own. Where as the issue OP is talking about is the only thing that makes high levelled enemies a "challenge" IE: stat scaling turning them into massive ammo sinks and rendering most of the weapons in this game nearly useless against anything past a certain level. It's a very, very lazy tactic.

It is the primary tactic employed to increase difficulty in RPGs. Past a certain point in player DPS it's better to just give your boss damage resistance than HP. You can try to argue this as much as you want but as someone who's played many a tabletop RPG I can tell you that DR is the way to go.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

It is the primary tactic employed to increase difficulty in RPGs. Past a certain point in player DPS it's better to just give your boss damage resistance than HP. You can try to argue this as much as you want but as someone who's played many a tabletop RPG I can tell you that DR is the way to go.

In an action game I'd say the best tactic for a high-level boss would actually be to make them a challenge instead of a bullet sponge where the challenge is not running out of ammo.

[Excitonex]

In an action game I'd say the best tactic for a high-level boss would actually be to make them a challenge instead of a bullet sponge where the challenge is not running out of ammo.

I'm glad you agree with literally everyone who plays video games ever. I wonder if DE feels the same way? Clearly not because I don't remember them saying they're working on complicated bosses at all. This doesn't negate the fact that DR is required to make some fights hard. Not every fight should be a spank-and-tank but there should be some and armor assists in that.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

I'm glad you agree with literally everyone who plays video games ever. I wonder if DE feels the same way? Clearly not because I don't remember them saying they're working on complicated bosses at all. This doesn't negate the fact that DR is required to make some fights hard. Not every fight should be a spank-and-tank but there should be some and armor assists in that.

Bosses are one thing but when generic enemies take more ammo to kill than any of the bosses it might be time to reign it in.

Edited June 6, 2013 by DAWGUNITALPHA

[Tyrian3k]

I'm glad you agree with literally everyone who plays video games ever. I wonder if DE feels the same way? Clearly not because I don't remember them saying they're working on complicated bosses at all. This doesn't negate the fact that DR is required to make some fights hard. Not every fight should be a spank-and-tank but there should be some and armor assists in that.

 

The point of this thread is that armor ignoring weapons simply bypass this reduction.

 

The problem I see is that the damage reduction doesn't have any sort of cap, it just keeps going until you basically stop dealing damage.

[Excitonex]

The point of this thread is that armor ignoring weapons simply bypass this reduction.

 

The problem I see is that the damage reduction doesn't have any sort of cap, it just keeps going until you basically stop dealing damage.

It caps at 99.9% DR judging by the wiki stats.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Damage dealt can't be lower than 1.

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

I'm glad you agree with literally everyone who plays video games ever. I wonder if DE feels the same way? Clearly not because I don't remember them saying they're working on complicated bosses at all. This doesn't negate the fact that DR is required to make some fights hard. Not every fight should be a spank-and-tank but there should be some and armor assists in that.

 

♫ Someone didn't see the liiiive-streaaam ♫ :D

[EdgeKasim]

The armor piercing mod just adds armor piercing damage, it doesn't change the fact that armor destroys the normal damage you'd do.

Say you have Gun A and Gun B. Gun A has nothing special, Gun B ignores armor.

Both guns do 100 damage a shot and have 90% armor piercing mod.

Gun A on a low level enemy would do 95 normal damage and 90 AP damage.

Gun B on a low level enemy would do 100 normal damage and 90 AP damage.

Gun A does 185 damage

Gun B does 190 damage

Not much of a difference, not much of a problem. However on high level enemies...

Gun A on a high level enemy might do 30 normal damage and 90 AP damage

Gun B on a high level enemy would do 100 normal damage and 90 AP damage.

Suddenly Gun A is only doing 120 damage while Gun B is still doing 190 damage.

That is not balanced in the least.

 

actually in a way that is balenced....if you were to switch the wep damages say the AI one does 100 and the AI one does 100 then in the end even with AI the 200 one does way more in bonus element damage,  a classic example of this is the lex is actually stronger than the kunai/despair PER BULLET (because i know some people are going to mention dps....) even against the higher levels of enemy.  for now tho people are mainly just fixated on the novelty of the very ninja-ish kunai and their handy AI

 

 

In an action game I'd say the best tactic for a high-level boss would actually be to make them a challenge instead of a bullet sponge where the challenge is not running out of ammo.

 

I'm glad you agree with literally everyone who plays video games ever. I wonder if DE feels the same way? Clearly not because I don't remember them saying they're working on complicated bosses at all. This doesn't negate the fact that DR is required to make some fights hard. Not every fight should be a spank-and-tank but there should be some and armor assists in that.

 

these are typical comments from people that have no idea how hard it is to actually make a "difficult or "challenging" enemy in a game, the AI in itself is a pain in the &#! to progoram, and even if you do mamage to get it done well then how it will actually react when faced with multiple threatsis another thing, plus much like with anything, there are ALWAYS ways to exploit a system, people will just find out a way to lessen the "challenge" on their own.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

these are typical comments from people that have no idea how hard it is to actually make a "difficult or "challenging" enemy in a game, the AI in itself is a pain in the &#! to progoram, and even if you do mamage to get it done well then how it will actually react when faced with multiple threatsis another thing, plus much like with anything, there are ALWAYS ways to exploit a system, people will just find out a way to lessen the "challenge" on their own.

That's also why I say simply increasing the armor/HP of an enemy is the lazy way. Because creating a boss or enemy that's interesting and challenging requires effort. But you know, why bother when you can just scale up stats and make them soak up stats and bore people to death.

[InsomniacOvrLrd]

So I gues you two guys don't use the Armor piercing mods on your guns/weapons?

 

Personally, I wouldn't ever roll out without one of them on my guns (well unless they're so low level it just won't fit). Armor pen from mods allows me to do full damage to infested ancients, headshot corpus crewman and more important targets. Now, if I get the armor piercing for free, it's better, because I don't have to mod it until I got the gun to lvl 30 - and even then, on stuff like sidearms, I'd rather have innate armor pen.

 

I think this is what the OP has a problem with: AP is just universally useful - there's not a single mission where it's not worth to have it on a weapon!

Armor IGNORE and Armor Penetration are two completely separate things. Armor Penetration is bonus elemental damage of the 'armor penetration' type, and most everything is succeptable TO that element. Armor IGNORE is when a weapon imparts it's full base damage, regardless of an enemy's armor stat. All warframes have an armor stat, and it effects how much HP (not shields) you lose when damaged. The higher the armor, the less you actually get hurt. If an enemy hit you with something with 'armor IGNORE' you would take the full HP damage, regardless of your suit's armor.

[BadAimbot]

Armor is a problem because most of the Grineer and the Ancients are the ones with the big armor. Taking a non-AP weapon against Grineer is just flat out worse, and Ancients are big, important targets that you want to kill really fast. The targets without much Armor are the Corpus, who take a lot of damage from Electricity, and light Infested, which take a lot of damage from Fire. AP weapon + Electricity + Fire makes for a great generalist weapon with no downsides. Either Armor needs to be reduced or Corpus/light Infested need more Armor so we can close the gap between AP and non-AP.

[MattHarrigan]

Yes, I guess the armor (as plain reduction of damage) scaling across levels hasn't been looked at too much, because like DE staff explained in Livestream #6, they didn't really expect people to go real high wave count. (OT: It wouldn't be the only enemy property that's scaling badly across levels, also see XP and drop scaling from level 50+ mobs is very unrewarding)

[drebinr092]

I think its fine way it is

[Ghobe]

Bolt type weapons just need to be changed from 100% normal + ignore armor to 0% + 100% Armor Pierce, like how the Heat brand is 0% normal 100% Fire.

[Estred]

It's kind of a "far out" idea since all of the armor piercing mods would be moot as well. Synxxx, you're right that something should be adjusted, but removing armor from the game is a bit much.

Wouldn't removing the Auto-fire from Kunai/Despair alleviate this issue? They fire slower than Akbolo if you can't just sit on the button. I even tested it with my clanmates. Two Bolto fire faster, period, the base rates are different.

[Excitonex]

♫ Someone didn't see the liiiive-streaaam ♫ :D

Someone didn't sense the saaaarcaaaasm.

[ScorpDK]

Streamlining the enemies' stats is one thing they still have to do, especially for Solo-Play. It would make sense that Co-Op is scaled to fit the number of players, to keep it challenging (more enemies, not more bulletspongy, preferably). But having a Solo-Player facing the same amount, if not more sometimes, enemies, at their ridiculously resilient levels kind of ruins it for people who either prefer to solo, or have no other choice (latency or crappy internet overall).

 

I don't care about Corpus enemies, as they're the most squishy at high levels, but Infested (especially Ancients) and Grineer mobs taking 1-2 magazines of a level 30 Boltor with AP, Fire, Serration and other damage mods...really discourages fighting them and promotes just rushing-through rather than waste ammo on a enemy that gives you practically the same XP than a few low level enemies you would have dispatched with a single shot.

Edited June 6, 2013 by ScorpDK

[YummyBubbles]

are you guys really crying because high level enemies require more damage to kill and take less damage because of armor?..........really? I mean the game isn't all that tough to begin with, and honestly, there's a huge difference that I've seen between AP and non-AP weapons, that huge difference, bullet travel. Moral of the story, there's a reason that ammo boxes are only 1k credit per box and COMPLETELY REFILL your ammo, and if you can't proficiently kill fast enough, why not try re-evaluating your mod loadout? If it's any insight the player with the most fusion moa kills during the event, solo'd with a braton, a non-AP weapon verses enemies with a high amount of armor. Learn your weapon, get better with it, and maybe rethink your loadout.

 

OH! and buy some ammo boxes ^_^

 

P.S. I'd like to see armor values on ancients, I've never known them to take less that at least base damage (including modded damage with serration), they just have TONS!!! of health.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Codekid

[Ghobe]

are you guys really crying because high level enemies require more damage to kill and take less damage because of armor?..........really? I mean the game isn't all that tough to begin with, and honestly, there's a huge difference that I've seen between AP and non-AP weapons, that huge difference, bullet travel. Moral of the story, there's a reason that ammo boxes are only 1k credit per box and COMPLETELY REFILL your ammo, and if you can't proficiently kill fast enough, why not try re-evaluating your mod loadout? If it's any insight the player with the most fusion moa kills during the event, solo'd with a braton, a non-AP weapon verses enemies with a high amount of armor. Learn your weapon, get better with it, and maybe rethink your loadout.

 

OH! and buy some ammo boxes ^_^

 

P.S. I'd like to see armor values on ancients, I've never known them to take less that at least base damage (including modded damage with serration), they just have TONS!!! of health.

Kid is right.

 

No one is whining that higher level enemies have more armor. What's being whined about is that non-bolt type weapons are like a candle in comparison to the sun(a bolt weapon) at high levels in terms of damage. This means 1 of 2 things: Either this hadn't really crossed the developers' minds, or they intended bolt type weapons to be the end-game(which I doubt since they don't require high mastery ranks).

 

Ammo boxes are nice, killing 3x as fast is even better.

 

And ancients? Really? You haven't noticed the difference between shooting them for like 8 on their body and then 36 in their weakpoint? Really?

[Tyrian3k]

P.S. I'd like to see armor values on ancients, I've never known them to take less that at least base damage (including modded damage with serration), they just have TONS!!! of health.

 

Wiki page

 

If it says e.g. 100%-1% that means that you deal 1% less damage for each level of the enemy.

 

Against high leveled ancients you basically can't use any damage type other than armor piercing and armor ignoring. The rest becomes completely negligible.