dangerdragon117 Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 (edited) as a scientist as I am, the unknown has always struck me with a dangerous curiosity. after all there are plenty of things science can't allow us to study, such as the supernatural, such as magic. I know most people would say magic is science that hasn't been explained yet. If it hasn't been explained yet, how do you know it can be explained? do you just pretend its not there? now before you shout "take off the tin foil hat", I'm only speculating in a scientific perspective. as I was playing warframe I wondered what if whatever happened to the tenno, happened to us? what would happen if science met magic? what would happen if science failed? these are the scenarios I assume would happen. I will be labeling them from most favorable to least favorable. the best situation I can see is society splitting into three groups, those that don't want to accept the failure in science, those that see these " magics as a new society and those that just want "away with it all". society would still run, just not as efficient. the worst I can see is the downfall of society. everything breaks down, unable to cope with the failure of man's greatest asset. society turns into a wild west scenario. this is the worst case scenario and is unlikely to happen. what are your thoughts on this? what would you do if science fails? what would you do if magic becomes the new science? Edited January 17, 2016 by dangerdragon117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowiespoon Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 If science fails, I do nothing If technology fails, I read a book I don't understand your question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerdragon117 Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 If science fails, I do nothing If technology fails, I read a book I don't understand your question what would you do if MAGIC was the new science, if science was just controlled magic and our understanding of science failed? just wanted to discuss and hear your thoughts on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datsher Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 If everything fails I'll become a wizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vheraun Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 What separates science from magic, really? Science is the study of the universe, built on fundamental laws. If something was found that broke those laws (which would, I assume, be "magic"), the laws would just have to change. By its nature, science explains the universe, with everything that's in it. If anything magical existed, it'd get studied and broken down to its fundamentals, and its behaviors would influence the laws of science. Science would adapt and magic would cease to be magical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverlordMcGeek Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 What separates science from magic, really? Science is the study of the universe, built on fundamental laws. If something was found that broke those laws (which would, I assume, be "magic"), the laws would just have to change. By its nature, science explains the universe, with everything that's in it. If anything magical existed, it'd get studied and broken down to its fundamentals, and its behaviors would influence the laws of science. Science would adapt and magic would cease to be magical. He covered this in the OP. I would like for magic to trump science since it would become undeniable truth that gods exists. I would start worshiping the olympians in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)AngelShur Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Science teaches us to study and put a stamp on things and 'explain' them into details. Science does not accept and acknowledge or support natural powers that we do not understand. Science does not teach or believe in a 'Creator'. i.e If tomorrow we get a massive Gamma burst that passes thru our ozone layer.... science will need time to recover! Science will fail in many things. I for certain use science, I was taught at the University to help me explain some stuff, but when it comes to higher power and 'unexplained happenings' I believe. Science does not know nor teach what that is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerdragon117 Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 What separates science from magic, really? Science is the study of the universe, built on fundamental laws. If something was found that broke those laws (which would, I assume, be "magic"), the laws would just have to change. By its nature, science explains the universe, with everything that's in it. If anything magical existed, it'd get studied and broken down to its fundamentals, and its behaviors would influence the laws of science. Science would adapt and magic would cease to be magical. what if science fail to explain it? like in warframe, in the void science fails to function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kthal Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" If "magic" appeared, we would study it, begin to understand it, and then apply it. All new science is magic in its own way, and we incorporate and adapt. Also, as far as I am concerned, magic exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vheraun Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 He covered this in the OP. I would like for magic to trump science since it would become undeniable truth that gods exists. I would start worshiping the olympians in a heartbeat. Fair enough. According to the OP, I know most people would say magic is science that hasn't been explained yet. If it hasn't been explained yet, how do you know it can be explained? do you just pretend its not there? So far, we have not seen one thing that "cannot be explained". No scientist worth his salt would write something weird or inexplicable off as "magic". Technology or science may not be far enough to explain some things, but that doesn't mean they're magical. Plus, even magic is easily explainable. It always has patterns, no matter how you see it. Do you have to utter words to create fire? Study them, consider why that works as it does, add it to the current model. Do people read each other's thoughts? Does the sun rise as a different color every day? Do people come back from the dead or prophesize things? Study them. Explain them. Add them to the current model. I can't really grasp the concept of something utterly inexplicable. what if science fail to explain it? like in warframe, in the void science fails to function. What does that mean? How can something fail to be explained? Tell me what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kthal Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I can't really grasp the concept of something utterly inexplicable. What about the flavour of Cinnamon Toast Crunch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerdragon117 Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 Fair enough. According to the OP, So far, we have not seen one thing that "cannot be explained". No scientist worth his salt would write something weird or inexplicable off as "magic". Technology or science may not be far enough to explain some things, but that doesn't mean they're magical. Plus, even magic is easily explainable. It always has patterns, no matter how you see it. Do you have to utter words to create fire? Study them, consider why that works as it does, add it to the current model. Do people read each other's thoughts? Does the sun rise as a different color every day? Do people come back from the dead or prophesize things? Study them. Explain them. Add them to the current model. I can't really grasp the concept of something utterly inexplicable. What does that mean? How can something fail to be explained? Tell me what you mean. how would you explain armored creatures coming out of nothing? how would you explain people who control fire or space itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vheraun Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 how would you explain armored creatures coming out of nothing? how would you explain people who control fire or space itself? I would study them. Find patterns, what works and what doesn't. Just because it sounds distant doesn't mean it can't conform to rules. I'd find laws that govern them and add them to the existing scientific model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerdragon117 Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 I would study them. Find patterns, what works and what doesn't. Just because it sounds distant doesn't mean it can't conform to rules. I'd find laws that govern them and add them to the existing scientific model. now think about what society would do, it barely accepts vaccines because they think they cause alzheimer's, society would,'t be able to accept it as a hole. either way this was mostly out of curiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vheraun Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 now think about what society would do, it barely accepts vaccines because they think they cause alzheimer's, society would,'t be able to accept it as a hole. either way this was mostly out of curiosity. This "society" you speak of is hardly the rule, rather a loud minority. Stupid people will exist. That will not alter science's course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakrana Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is probable, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." Clarke's First Law. "The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible." Clarke's Second Law. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Clarke's Third Law. The inverse is also true. Science is merely a methodology framework to approach and understand the world around us. Saying Magic would be beyond empirical investigation in and of itself is making a claim that it'd be contrary to fundamentals like cause and effect...and even the most chaotic event could have a causal root we're merely not aware of yet. Butterflies and all that. Look at the very means you're using to communicate the query and establish communication, which is easily Magic to the prehistoric individual but amusingly trite to the modern person. Still, should we find and prove that there is such a thing as the supernatural, then why would we not just apply the same methodology that works already? We have quite an impressive wealth of conceptual notions, with things such as Hermetic magic being quite popular in fiction, along with the very pretty Geometric magic. I'd imagine that any self respecting scientist would begin investigating those practices for veracity in the event it could indeed be tested (after the relevant ethical comities were placated) Just because we may not be able to engage with something from the off, does not mean it is fundamentally impossible to understand. Rather it just means the standing theories and systems would have to be redrawn to incorporate the new stuff. If the apparatus isn't working, you hammer at it till you find something that does, no? Sure, maybe it could lead to abuses of elemental forces as one does, or conjuration of astral entities, standard magical activities...but those practices need to be rooted in something else how would anyone even learn the tricks in the first place? So long as humans have the nature of empirical enquiry, it doesn't matter how insane or incomprehensible something appears at first, we're pretty darn good at hammering away till we get something eloquently simple that expresses akin to some mathematical thing. The Void claims to not be understood...but is that because it's impossible to understand, or because the Orokin gave up and got all insular about it? They don't come across as those to explore things that might actually make things better if it upset their little Empire's status quo too much. And bear in mind, if the Void is truly beyond science...how come we have Void Mask cloaking technology, Solar Rails that use the Void to establish a short (relatively) range warp-gate not unlike a Stargate? Mod technology, Transference, Warframe biases to establish their particular powers and now the application through Focus. All of these are putting the Void, the place "beyond our science and understanding", to do something repeatable, reliable and understandable. Ergo, the Orokin might be lying on how much or little they understand of the Void to their subjects. Even now, we don't have all the answers. And when we consider that if there is one truth, that Knowledge is Power? Why wouldn't the Orokin hide the full extent of their Void based technology when they've been demonstrated to be borderline despots, shackling their subjects through what they let them know. Margulis made significant steps towards quantifying the nature of the Tenno, if only enough to put them into a state of peaceful dreaming so they didn't have to bear the pain of hurting people because they couldn't control it. The Orokin Executors killed her for the crime of apostasy, and I imagine that anyone can see where that is telling: She was killed for 'the abandonment or renouncement of a religious or political belief or principle'. The Orokin may not understand the Void because they decided to use it as the crux of the psuedo-religion that seemed to have been built up around it. I'm sure anyone here can easily call to mind how much religious dogma stymied the progress of the sciences in times gone past. It may be that the Orokin shanked the scientific drive by some Void religion on pain of death. What we can't explain in the now merely means we need more information and time. Nothing can exist without some grounding principle behind it. If those principles turn out to be wrong, reality just works differently to how we imagined and we must adapt. I can't imagine that anyone with the right amount of time and means could be unable to approach the Void from a scientific standpoint. Science is not infallible, no. Blind faith in what it tells without questioning it makes for the same kind of dogma we associate with intellectual dark ages. But it is pretty effective at engaging with the information provided and giving logical inference based explanations. Science is only limited by the fact it is Inductive, not Deductive. Day that scientists can find something that they can say is a physical law of the order of an a priori statement, they'll probably have a lot of happy tears cause that's one hell of an accomplishment. For now, though, we're just going to have to make do with a posteriori as we have been doing and so far...that's not gone too badly. New things shouldn't dissuade us from using a tried and proven approach, just takes a bit more imagination when it's new territory than familiar ground. This all said and done though, I've only a degree in philosophy so I'm hardly the best equipped to discuss what science can and cannot accomplish. now think about what society would do, it barely accepts vaccines because they think they cause alzheimer's, society would,'t be able to accept it as a hole. either way this was mostly out of curiosity. There will always be ignorant people. What it comes down to is just ensuring that society is largely aware that, actually, these things are fine. And good grief those such people are a special kind of stupid...which is resolved by education. Idiots are eternal, but that's how we can continue to test things which we assert to be foolproof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)MK Ultra K11 Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 as a scientist as I am, the unknown has always struck me with a dangerous curiosity. after all there are plenty of things science can't allow us to study, such as the supernatural, such as magic. I know most people would say magic is science that hasn't been explained yet. If it hasn't been explained yet, how do you know it can be explained? do you just pretend its not there? now before you shout "take off the tin foil hat", I'm only speculating in a scientific perspective. as I was playing warframe I wondered what if whatever happened to the tenno, happened to us? what would happen if science met magic? what would happen if science failed? these are the scenarios I assume would happen. I will be labeling them from most favorable to least favorable. the best situation I can see is society splitting into three groups, those that don't want to accept the failure in science, those that see these " magics as a new society and those that just want "away with it all". society would still run, just not as efficient. the worst I can see is the downfall of society. everything breaks down, unable to cope with the failure of man's greatest asset. society turns into a wild west scenario. this is the worst case scenario and is unlikely to happen. what are your thoughts on this? what would you do if science fails? what would you do if magic becomes the new science? Science is just organized rules. Magic is the same. People just just consider magic as science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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