Starter Frame Update

[Frivolimous]

1 hour ago, marelooke said:

Trinity was removed because her abilities are pretty useless in the early game as stuff just dies too fast,

Thats the case with pretty much all frames and abilities, no?

[felixsylvaris]

Untill there be a big fraction of new players complaining about starting frames it is all just veteran players making stuff out. This discussion would be more interesting if there was more feedback from new players. Or at least plaers who started second acount.

Some frames could be very bad for starter:

• Ash - dmg locking from blade strom is not fun for other players
• Limbo - banishing managment could lead to confusion and trolling
• Vauban - ranom baunces will not improve new players' experience
• Equinox - a bit too much abilities for starter frame
• Nyx - Mind Control has some troll potencial (charming last enemy and stuff)
• Trinity - she is not a troll, but starting planets does not require teamplay also low level frames dosnt use powers often, since have them not unlocked yet, or not modded and they are not worthy yet

So there are some problematic frames bad as starters.

Copying roles from other games would serve nothing. Since WF has own mechanic and own roles, and roles depend on mission type. Point defense frames shine in some types of missions, but for resuce mission Limbo or Banshee is a charm. And in capture tanking is dead weight. The whole tanking role hardly apply to WF since there is no need for initiator and the whole concept of frontline is very fluid (game is to fast). In some boss fight there could be a tank to make boss face one direction and that is it.

I started with MAG and only hard part was "when to use Bullet Attractor" but "never" is the answear and after that game was smooth.

Changing starting frames is not needed. But if new players will start complaining on current selection then it should be adressed. Right now it is mostly teory crafting.

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by felixsylvaris

[marelooke]

11 minutes ago, Frivolimous said:

I think Trinity was a starter at some point in early beta?  She belongs in her own category not just because of the healing but because of Energy Vamp.  The only other frame that grants energy is Desecrate Nekros and not to the same extent. Oberon could be an interesting starter, but he definitely loses relevance.

The thing is that in early levels there are many, many different ways to play and get through the levels.  Guns play a major role and powers a lesser one. I remember i started with Mag and just because of energy constraints i killed most things with my braton and saved my powers for emergencies.

The first 2 abilities with frost are strong damaging abilities and are useful in their own right during early game. He is tough so he can take a few hits and then baboom everyone with his frost wave. No problem.  Lokis decoy lends immense utility to a team early game, taking all the fire while you and your squishy team gun the enemy down.  Ash is probably a better starter frame because he is tankier but nothing was wrong with Loki as a starter IMO.

The problem with Frost is that his bubble seems very useful but is severely disliked by many players due to it blocking friendly fire through it and the default colours not exactly improving visibility (though lots of high MR players also haven't figured out that changing Frost's energy colour is a good idea, probably spent too much time on Draco and not enough time actually playing, but I digress). I have also noticed a seriously diminishing lack of patience by more "experienced" players lately (like the past year or so) when playing on Mercury or Venus (had someone go absolutely mental about early activation of the Air capsules on Appolodorus not too long ago, which would have been funny if it weren't so sad...the least you can do is explain the problem to the guy/gal and hope they speak your language, which is not really a given, instead of just being a jerk about it)

Loki's decoy doesn't last particularly long without duration mods and the frame itself is extremely squishy. I used to play *a lot* with newbies on Mercury/Venus (before DE changed the pairing so higher MR players are more likely to end up together, though I still regularly see lower MR players when PUGging there), especially the endless types of missions and yeah, I've picked up my fair share of Lokis from the ground, some of them being severely frustrated by the frame's squishyness and wishing they'd picked something else to start off with... That said, maybe this could have been fixed by a better description.

9 minutes ago, Frivolimous said:

Thats the case with pretty much all frames and abilities, no?

Not really, I mean, it's not a matter of having enough power, when your power bar is full on Excal you can press 3 and stuff dies (or 1, whatever) and you contribute to the team. If you press 4 on Trinity when everyone has full HP then, eh...you burned a lot of power for basically nothing? And since, as you mention, beginning players don't use their powers as much EV isn't nearly as useful in the early hours either and Link just doesn't last long enough without duration mods. Net result seems to me that Trinity just doesn't bring much to the table for a newbie. I'd even argue that Oberon's first two abilities are a lot more useful than Trinity's for a newbie.

I mean, I like Trinity, but as a starter frame, for people who know *nothing* about the game mechanics (aside that LMB fires the gun and 'R' reloads, same as in every shooter)? I find that harder to defend.

[marelooke]

16 minutes ago, felixsylvaris said:

Untill there be a big fraction of new players complaining about starting frames it is all just veteran players making stuff out. This discussion would be more interesting if there was more feedback from new players. Or at least plaers who started second acount.

Some frames could be very bad for starter:

• Ash - dmg locking from blade strom is not fun for other players
• Limbo - banishing managment could lead to confusion and trolling
• Vauban - ranom baunces will not improve new players' experience
• Equinox - a bit too much abilities for starter frame
• Nyx - Mind Control has some troll potencial (charming last enemy and stuff)
• Trinity - she is not a troll, but starting planets does not require teamplay

So there are some problematic frames bad as starters.

Copying roles from other games would serve nothing. Since WF has own mechanic and own roles, and roles depend on mission type. Point defense frames shine in some types of missions, but for resuce mission Limbo or Banshee is a charm. And in capture tanking is dead weight. The whole tanking role hardly apply to WF since there is no need for initiator and the whole concept of frontline is very fluid (game is to fast). In some boss fight there could be a tank to make boss face one direction and that is it.

I started with MAG and only hard part was "when to use Bullet Attractor" but "never" is the answear and after that game was smooth.

Changing starting frames is not needed. But if new players will start complaining on current selection then it should be adressed. Right now it is mostly teory crafting.

 

In case it matters, I started a new account when the new tutorial was added, though I picked Excalibur as my starter frame back then. I think I even made a feedback thread about some parts of the pretty bad new player experience back then[1].

Judging by how little has changed DE doesn't exactly receive a lot of feedback from new players either (if they don't like it they are more likely to just quit and go play something else than send feedback...), though they did mention recently that they were kinda shocked how little ceremony you are dropped into the Liset with after the tutorial, left entirely to your own devices, so hopefully things will improve.

 

[1] (dear lord, has it been that long?) Also, to my shame I have to admit I never got around to bringing up the other issues I found :(

 

[LightstealKnight]

1 hour ago, felixsylvaris said:

Untill there be a big fraction of new players complaining about starting frames it is all just veteran players making stuff out. This discussion would be more interesting if there was more feedback from new players. Or at least plaers who started second acount.

Some frames could be very bad for starter:

• Ash - dmg locking from blade strom is not fun for other players
• Limbo - banishing managment could lead to confusion and trolling
• Vauban - ranom baunces will not improve new players' experience
• Equinox - a bit too much abilities for starter frame
• Nyx - Mind Control has some troll potencial (charming last enemy and stuff)
• Trinity - she is not a troll, but starting planets does not require teamplay also low level frames dosnt use powers often, since have them not unlocked yet, or not modded and they are not worthy yet

So there are some problematic frames bad as starters.

Copying roles from other games would serve nothing. Since WF has own mechanic and own roles, and roles depend on mission type. Point defense frames shine in some types of missions, but for resuce mission Limbo or Banshee is a charm. And in capture tanking is dead weight. The whole tanking role hardly apply to WF since there is no need for initiator and the whole concept of frontline is very fluid (game is to fast). In some boss fight there could be a tank to make boss face one direction and that is it.

I started with MAG and only hard part was "when to use Bullet Attractor" but "never" is the answear and after that game was smooth.

Changing starting frames is not needed. But if new players will start complaining on current selection then it should be adressed. Right now it is mostly teory crafting.

 

First off, I have helped a lot of new players over the years, and even brought quite a few friends into Warframe and helped them get into the game.  A major problem is that they just do not like the choice of starter frames.

As a Veteran I know what all the frames do, but new players have no clue.  It is overwhelming for them when I ask them to pick a frame for me to help them farm first.  They have no clue so I have to ask them what their play style generally is and give them recommendations based on this.

So new players do complain, but people generally don't start using the forums when they are new.

As a vet I recommended these frames specifically because they are great options for new players.  And most of the time after explaining all of the options one of these 4 frames (not excalibur) is what we aim for first.  I tend to stay away from rhino because he teaches bad habits to new players but sometimes I do recommend him too.

Trinity is very useful for new players, I can't really see any other use for her well of life than early game.  She is perfect for people who love to play in teams, and she can help a group of new players get through a mission.  

Loki's decoy lasts long enough to take aggro off of the team.  Remember new players will be using really bad weapons with no mods.  The simplest missions are a struggle for them.  And without a flow or energy efficiency trinity is very helpful.  I remember that I barely used abilities in the early game because I never had enough energy, and when I did, I would save it to use my abilities in a tough spot.  Slash dash was useful to get out of a tight spot, and do a bit of damage.  Mag's pull would be used to CC enemies shooting at us, and Loki (starter frame at the time) could decoy and go invis to revive us.

Currently, volt brings nothing to the team that mag doesnt.  His speed boost is way to short with no mods and his shield is less useful than Loki's decoy because it costs more energy and lasts about the same amount of time.

Frost can be so useful.  New players generally will not overuse his globe because they will have energy problems.  They will save it to revive a fallen ally or when fighting a tough boss or doing that defense mission.

I personally would never pick ember, but one of my friends loves magic abilities and feels that both mag and volt aren't really caster oriented and prefers Saryn (horrible pick for new player because she is so energy thirsty) and ember.

For me, Ember was my starter frame because I got the Prime Access at the time.  She was perfectly fine.

 

 

[(XBOX)Skode]

Volt IS balanced and easy to mod though hes more support than glass cannon as he has an on demand stun, speed stim and his bloated shield does practically everything. He is a great starter frame - he was mine and did me well and in those days there was far less powercreep mods and abilities themselves were mods. Im more interested in Mag rework - think we are getting to see it next devstream.

[felixsylvaris]

Yes Volt is great starting frame if someone is into casters. 2 damaging spell and 2 support spells.

Rising starting frame selection is a option, it will probably not make things worse. But there is also no feedback that there is not enought variety in starting frames. And present starting frames are fine.

Just OP idea of copying some other games roles is nonsense and will do more harm: "H Void need healer and tank". No thanks.

There is also several limits of starting frames, and violating them would require futher changes which i dont think is good use of DE time.

1. No frames which otherwise are hard to get (-Vauban, - Netza, - Ash, -Ivara, - Nekros) to avoid situacion when "You pick Ash as your starting frame, otherwise you will never get him!"
2. No frames which are quest rewards, since that would undermine the idea of quests. (-Limbo, - Atlas, - Chroma, - Inaros, -Limbo, - Mesa, -Mirage, -)
3. No frames without damaging ability, required for tutorial. (-Rhino, -Nyx, - Trinity, - Loki, - Valkyr, -Nova...)
4. No frames which are too complicated or require some combos (-LImbo, - Saryn, - Zephyr, - Equinox)
5. No frames with troll factor which can block other players from action (-Nyx, -Ash, - Frost, - Vauban)

Which leaves:

• Ember - a bit similar to Volt/Mag and fragile, without syndicate mods limited utility, cant argue with personal preferences Fire vs Magnetism
• Wukong - not the most popular frame but it could be good starting frame
• Banshee - interesting idea as support frame, running with silence/sonar could be good introduction.
• Hydroid - his theme is a bit too specific, cant denay great Cthulhu
• Oberon - has good starter kit, but some would argue that not good in general
• Excalibur, Mag, Volt - great starting frames

Edited March 8, 2016 by felixsylvaris