It is time to free "Mastery" from the tyrannical clutches of Affinity

[(XBOX)Clxde]

Very true. Some people run Draco all day to accumulate affinity. It's understandable to some degree. No one want's to rank up bad weapons all day. It's time consuming and can get a bit boring. What happens when people get everything done? Well what I do is maximize everything I have to make it the best I can. All the weapons I didn't care about I go back to to see what it really brings to the table. Draco can be thought of as unfair to people but I see it as a way to save time and max items that can later be enjoyed  as they were intended to

[(PSN)wonderwoman814]

On 3/16/2016 at 9:38 PM, (PS4)OjamaThunder123 said:

Sorties started to reveal alot of them. Becoming increasingly clear MR means nothing once you hit 7 for me.

Actually when comes to sorties..if you have more than 2 players rank 10 and under it's 90 percent going to go bad. It happens all the time. Mr does mean something to a point other wise 9 can carry anyone lol.

[Littlerift]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)wonderwoman814 said:

Actually when comes to sorties..if you have more than 2 players rank 10 and under it's 90 percent going to go bad. It happens all the time. Mr does mean something to a point other wise 9 can carry anyone lol.

 

I'm sure there are MR 9s that could carry anyone...

[(PSN)wonderwoman814]

Just now, Littlerift said:

 

I'm sure there are MR 9s that could carry anyone...

I'm sure there is of course people own second account ts I assume by that doesn't make my point irrelevant.  In any sortie take more than 2 low Mr player and you will have a hard time more than likely. Mr doesn't really mean skill just dedication . All the skill in the world is useless in this game with no mods . Anyway were off topic Mr don't mean squat in 95 percent of the game is what I'm trying to say so the system is pretty much fine regardless of draco.  If draco is so easy everyone should be Mr 20 .

[Silanaus]

TLDR: No need to accumulate Affinity. Focus on Mastery Test. Gate the Keys for them behind time/game completion.

-----

My suggestion:

Tune the Mastery Test to better challenge the players. To go into Mastery Test you need the corresponding key. Crafting the key takes some resources and time (not huge but something). If you complete the Test you get the rank. If not try again. Minimum 24h between Tests.

1-15 (Unlock all nodes). To get the key for MR 2 you need to unlock all nodes on Mercury. The same repeats for other planets. You still have to kill the boss of each respective planet to move forward, but if you want to rank up you have to clean the house. Additionally, you get a Mastery Key for finishing the Archwing quest, and other story-progression quests (i.e. Second Dream).

When you finish with unlocking the star map and the important quests you have to get the other keys via Void. For example you get a key for MR 18 if you complete all T1 void missions. MR 19 for all T2 void and etc. Then you move on to Sorties, a finished sortie gives you the ability to craft MR 2X.

After finishing all that you can gate the keys behind weapon/frame leveling like now. So when you have leveled 25% of all items you get a key, and another on 50%. So if you don’t like leveling snipers you can level some other things and leave them for last.

Pros:

The Mastery Rank now corresponds to your progression in the game. If a player is above 20 you know he has done all the void.

The Mastery Test will be tuned to prepare the players for high-level content. For example adding sortie modifiers.

The progression is gated behind time and resources. Minimum 20+ days to achieve max level even if you grind nonstop. You need to craft the key (it’s all about the Keys in Warframe!).

The completionist players that have leveled all weapons/frames will still be able to achieve higher ranks.

The system is open to changes and allows for a large variety of ways to acquire keys.

No longer dependent on grinding Draco with unmodded Rank 0 weapons that you sell after 4 waves there.

Cons:

DE will have to change parts of the Mastery Tests (The system is there, but somethings will have to be tuned)

[Littlerift]

2 minutes ago, Silanaus said:

TLDR: No need to accumulate Affinity. Focus on Mastery Test. Gate the Keys for them behind time/game completion.

-----

My suggestion:

Tune the Mastery Test to better challenge the players. To go into Mastery Test you need the corresponding key. Crafting the key takes some resources and time (not huge but something). If you complete the Test you get the rank. If not try again. Minimum 24h between Tests.

 

More time gating, yay. What problem does having to craft a key to do the Master test solve?

 

2 minutes ago, Silanaus said:

1-15 (Unlock all nodes). To get the key for MR 2 you need to unlock all nodes on Mercury. The same repeats for other planets. You still have to kill the boss of each respective planet to move forward, but if you want to rank up you have to clean the house. Additionally, you get a Mastery Key for finishing the Archwing quest, and other story-progression quests (i.e. Second Dream).

 

God no, this is an awful idea that just adds, yet again, to the tedium of the game. Clearing planets already gives you a big bonus in the form of Nightmare missions and thus Nightmare mods. Yet again, what problem does this solve? You don't become a better player by clearing out all of the one-shottable mobs on Mercury.

 

2 minutes ago, Silanaus said:

When you finish with unlocking the star map and the important quests you have to get the other keys via Void. For example you get a key for MR 18 if you complete all T1 void missions. MR 19 for all T2 void and etc. Then you move on to Sorties, a finished sortie gives you the ability to craft MR 2X.

 

Again, you don't appear to be solving any problems with the suggestion, you're just adding frustration (at not getting the right Void keys) and tedium (as you have to run missions that you may not give the slightest toss about).

 

2 minutes ago, Silanaus said:

After finishing all that you can gate the keys behind weapon/frame leveling like now. So when you have leveled 25% of all items you get a key, and another on 50%. So if you don’t like leveling snipers you can level some other things and leave them for last.

 

Eugh. See above.

 

2 minutes ago, Silanaus said:

Pros:

The Mastery Rank now corresponds to your progression in the game. If a player is above 20 you know he has done all the void.

The Mastery Test will be tuned to prepare the players for high-level content. For example adding sortie modifiers.

The progression is gated behind time and resources. Minimum 20+ days to achieve max level even if you grind nonstop. You need to craft the key (it’s all about the Keys in Warframe!).

The completionist players that have leveled all weapons/frames will still be able to achieve higher ranks.

The system is open to changes and allows for a large variety of ways to acquire keys.

No longer dependent on grinding Draco with unmodded Rank 0 weapons that you sell after 4 waves there.

Cons:

DE will have to change parts of the Mastery Tests (The system is there, but somethings will have to be tuned)

 

Mastery Rank already, in the vast majority of cases, corresponds with your progression in the game. Despite all the nonsense people whine about on the forums I really doubt that there are very many people who just farm Draco all day who haven't yet reached the end of the Star Chart. People use Draco as a means to the end, it's isn't itself the end goal. Your system doesn't tune people to play high level content whatsoever because idling at low level teaches you nothing about the game. You never learn how to do something by repeatedly practising an inferior equivalent; you can play on Pluto all you like, it's not making you any better at Sorties.

As for time and resource gating, we already have that with the affinity system due to the number of weapons and Warframes you have to craft in order to reach the next MR. All you're doing is putting a paltry resource gate in the way alongside an infuriating time gate. The fact that completionists get the same experience is, by definition, not a 'pro' of your system, and neither is the fact that it could potentially be improved so as to be less awful. And again, I repeat, Draco clearly isn't the issue everybody thinks it is, and I would really love for somebody to point out where all of these MR 21 players who've only ever played on Draco are given that only 2.5% of players on Steam have reached rank 15.

[Silanaus]

1 hour ago, Littlerift said:

More time gating, yay. What problem does having to craft a key to do the Master test solve?

God no, this is an awful idea that just adds, yet again, to the tedium of the game. Clearing planets already gives you a big bonus in the form of Nightmare missions and thus Nightmare mods. Yet again, what problem does this solve? You don't become a better player by clearing out all of the one-shottable mobs on Mercury.

Again, you don't appear to be solving any problems with the suggestion, you're just adding frustration (at not getting the right Void keys) and tedium (as you have to run missions that you may not give the slightest toss about).

Eugh. See above.

Mastery Rank already, in the vast majority of cases, corresponds with your progression in the game. Despite all the nonsense people whine about on the forums I really doubt that there are very many people who just farm Draco all day who haven't yet reached the end of the Star Chart. People use Draco as a means to the end, it's isn't itself the end goal. Your system doesn't tune people to play high level content whatsoever because idling at low level teaches you nothing about the game. You never learn how to do something by repeatedly practising an inferior equivalent; you can play on Pluto all you like, it's not making you any better at Sorties.

As for time and resource gating, we already have that with the affinity system due to the number of weapons and Warframes you have to craft in order to reach the next MR. All you're doing is putting a paltry resource gate in the way alongside an infuriating time gate. The fact that completionists get the same experience is, by definition, not a 'pro' of your system, and neither is the fact that it could potentially be improved so as to be less awful. And again, I repeat, Draco clearly isn't the issue everybody thinks it is, and I would really love for somebody to point out where all of these MR 21 players who've only ever played on Draco are given that only 2.5% of players on Steam have reached rank 15.

Gating the keys prevent people from power-leveling from 0-20 for one day. 

You need to finish just one planet to unlock Nightmare Mode. So your argument about that being an incentive is flawed at best. Currently you only need to unlock enough nodes to get to the boss for the Nav segment, and to have access to Alerts without taxiing. Both of which can be achieved without finishing all nodes. To be fair, you still might want to finish all planets just because of the small affinity bonus for unlocking all nodes.

So you think it is ok for a person to have to mindless and tediously be siting on a box in Darco (as means to an end) to progress in Mastery. After mindlessly gridning low level mission for resources to create weapon he dislikes? But it is not ok to have an expectation from the player that if he wants to achieve the highest 4-5 ranks, he needs to play void missions and grind the respective keys?

The whole point of my idea is to create harder Master Tests that can serve as testimony to their Mastery, and to help them with some otherwise unexplained parts of the game. Locking the Tests with keys gives targets to players, just like the current affinity bar. 

Also, using steam achievements without proper context says something about your argument. You could have also mentioned that only 11% of all players have leveled a sentinel to 30. And only 22% have played for more than 10 hours. So >10% of players that played more than 10h have reached rank 15. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Silanaus

[Littlerift]

1 minute ago, Silanaus said:

Gating the keys prevent people from power-leveling from 0-20 for one day. 

You need to finish just one planet to unlock Nightmare Mode. So your argument about that being an incentive is flawed at best. Currently you only need to unlock enough nodes to get to the boss for the Nav segment, and to have access to Alerts without taxiing. Both of which can be achieved without finishing all nodes. To be fair, you still might want to finish all planets just because of the small affinity bonus for unlocking all nodes.

So you think it is ok for a person to have to mindless and tediously siting on a box in Darco (as means to an end) to progress in Mastery. After mindlessly gridning low level mission for resources to create weapon he dislikes? But it is not ok to have an expectation from the player that if he wants to achieve the highest 4-5 ranks, he needs to play void missions and grind the respective keys?

The whole point of my idea is to create harder Master Tests that can serve as testimony to their Mastery, and to help them with some otherwise unexplained parts of the game. Locking the Tests with keys gives targets to players, just like the current affinity bar. 

Also, using steam achievements without proper context says something about your argument. You could have also mentioned that only 11% of all players have leveled a sentinel to 30. And only 22% have played for more than 10 hours. So >10% of players that played more than 10h have reached rank 15. 

 

It's not possible to power-level from 0 to 20 in a day in the current system unless you have literally hundreds of pounds worth of Platinum.

And yes, I think it's perfectly okay for people to gain mastery doing something they like, because mastery is a pointless number that has no relevance whatsoever after MR 12. I'm cool with the Mastery tests being made harder, but making Mastery more grindy and tedious is not the way to go.

 

And I'm not sure why you bothered to mention Steam achievements given that all that you added simply helps my argument. 10% of everyone who has played for more than 10 hours has reached MR 15, and only around 5% have reached MR 21. What precisely is the issue with Mastery being too easy, then? Only slightly more than 10% of people who've played more than 10 hours have even reached MR 12, which is the last Mastery rank that actually matters in any way. Yet again I ask, where is this huge problem with hordes of people cheesing their way up the Mastery ranks? And even if there were loads of people doing that, what does it matter to you? It doesn't effect you in any way.

[(PSN)OjamaThunder123]

8 hours ago, Littlerift said:

 

 

 

Mastery Rank already, in the vast majority of cases, corresponds with your progression in the game. Despite all the nonsense people whine about on the forums I really doubt that there are very many people who just farm Draco all day who haven't yet reached the end of the Star Chart. People use Draco as a means to the end, it's isn't itself the end goal. Your system doesn't tune people to play high level content whatsoever because idling at low level teaches you nothing about the game. You never learn how to do something by repeatedly practising an inferior equivalent; you can play on Pluto all you like, it's not making you any better at Sorties.

As for time and resource gating, we already have that with the affinity system due to the number of weapons and Warframes you have to craft in order to reach the next MR. All you're doing is putting a paltry resource gate in the way alongside an infuriating time gate. The fact that completionists get the same experience is, by definition, not a 'pro' of your system, and neither is the fact that it could potentially be improved so as to be less awful. And again, I repeat, Draco clearly isn't the issue everybody thinks it is, and I would really love for somebody to point out where all of these MR 21 players who've only ever played on Draco are given that only 2.5% of players on Steam have reached rank 15.

Because there isn't any reason to. I know I havent because currently grinding for Fusion cores and Forma to max out corrupted and prime mods and perfect suits  is way more important than MR. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by (PS4)OjamaThunder123

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

On 3/16/2016 at 5:33 AM, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Actually leveling things between updates and events is pretty much what you do at MR 21. Its fun though you end up forma'n things you didn't initially like and finding  them to be really enjoyable,

my example would be forma'n dark dagger three times, its now my favorite dagger

Ya, thats how im 1/2 way to 19 right now. iv found a lot of things i hate to use. buzzlock was no my jam for instance but i thouhgt it would be.

[SenorClipClop]

On 3/16/2016 at 5:33 AM, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Actually leveling things between updates and events is pretty much what you do at MR 21. Its fun though you end up forma'n things you didn't initially like and finding  them to be really enjoyable,

my example would be forma'n dark dagger three times, its now my favorite dagger

Right? From how it's set up right now, I'm pretty sure this is what the system is intended to do. You're supposed to try out every new weapon, give it an honest chance and find out if it's the kind of toy you'd play with. The trouble is with players (especially MMO players like me) who take great pains to get the most stuff in the most efficient way possible. In a perfect world, nobody would play missions just to "farm" for stuff - we'd play for enjoyment and the stuff would be an interesting perk - but pretty much everyone farms. And sure, there are weapons you know right away you won't like, but the current ranking system gives the player a little incentive for the player to at least try the new weapon eventually. It's like Pokemon. This incentive also helps DE: rewarding the player for exploring more of the content means that player will put more time into the game, making a player more likely to support the company and draw in new players.

Changing this system wouldn't really help anyone, especially since Warframe is largely PvE. If DE changed how we acquire our rank, we would just change how we farm to increase it. And no offense to Original Poster (not you, freakytiki3, you're alright), but the other stuff suggested (stuff like counting stealth kills and headshots for mastery directly) would ultimately turn players to solo play to prevent kill-stealing and the like, which would take away from the Jolly Co-operation we've come to love in this game. The "mission goals as mastery" is neat, but I kinda like its contribution to affinity instead. I might like it a little more, though, if those mission goals weren't assigned randomly. (Ever go into a mission with your Marksman loadout and get bonus affinity if you do melee kills? You know what I'm talkin' about.) Finally, making these kinds of changes to the ranking system would turn many players off of the game, or at the very least a good chunk of the game's content. Placing rank on skill is essential for PvP games like CounterStrike and League of Legends (it motivates the player to improve and sorts players into similar skill levels so this improvement is more achievable), but in PvE it could have different effects. Applying this to Warframe would make the tier system we have now even more prominent and isolating, and more players would stick to only the weapons that give them the high rank, making midmaxxing even more viable and obnoxious. I mean, this is already kind of the case, but with the present system at least the game has you try other ways of playing.

TL;DR - The affinity-into-rank system provides incentive to the player to try out new weapons and explore more content. You can passively farm affinity because despite this incentive, DE doesn't want to force players to actively use weapons they might not like or punish players for not using these weapons. Also, Mastery Rank isn't exactly an indication of how good someone is at the game, but rather an easy shorthand number that tells you about long they've (probably) been playing, and you can draw an inference from that. If you wanna know how masterful a player actually is, check out their stats. How's their mission success rate? Kill counts? Preferred weapons? Also, play with them. Find out how they work in a team or in certain situations. Jolly Co-Operation!

[(PSN)Niall-O-Grady-]

MR means nothing if you dont use any of the gear you level however even in the case of Draco MR grinders some experience of game mechanics will be learnt, they will pick up some equipment they like and use outside of draco etc etc. The main problem of MR is that it tries to define player ability based on what they have completed but in the case of draco grinders or normal levelers ability with an item or in a certain mission will be based not on whether theyve leveled it or completed the mission but if they have enough time using it or running it to be proficient. Handing an MR21 a frame they dont use and expecting them to be exceptional. Drop an MR21 into spy mission when they seldom run them, expect mistakes.

Also basing skill off priority kills, headshots, stealth kills etc would just change how people grind MR not whether it is reflective of that persons level of skill. Problem is it's almost impossible to quantify skill in a game with so many different missions, so many different weapons, ways to mod said weapons and playstyles. 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

props to OP for the most dramatic thread title ! 

MR is a paper tiger, surely.  MR means very little under the present system.  the MR tests are either annoyingly difficult or extremely easy, and the tests usually have absolutely no connection with how real missions are played. 

an improvement in the MR system would be welcome. 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Niall-O-Grady- said:

MR means nothing if you dont use any of the gear you level however even in the case of Draco MR grinders some experience of game mechanics will be learnt, they will pick up some equipment they like and use outside of draco etc etc. The main problem of MR is that it tries to define player ability based on what they have completed but in the case of draco grinders or normal levelers ability with an item or in a certain mission will be based not on whether theyve leveled it or completed the mission but if they have enough time using it or running it to be proficient. Handing an MR21 a frame they dont use and expecting them to be exceptional. Drop an MR21 into spy mission when they seldom run them, expect mistakes.

Also basing skill off priority kills, headshots, stealth kills etc would just change how people grind MR not whether it is reflective of that persons level of skill. Problem is it's almost impossible to quantify skill in a game with so many different missions, so many different weapons, ways to mod said weapons and playstyles. 

draco has little to do with skill one way or another.  many very skilled players drop into draco to level up their weapons.   i'm sure many MR21 players who never visited draco suck big rocks.  personally, I've met low MR players who blew me out, especially in spy or rescue missions, which are not my thing. 

as you say, skill is a very difficult thing to quantify... arrogance however is pretty obvious in some high MR players. 

[(PSN)Niall-O-Grady-]

5 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

draco has little to do with skill one way or another.  many very skilled players drop into draco to level up their weapons.   i'm sure many MR21 players who never visited draco suck big rocks.  personally, I've met low MR players who blew me out, especially in spy or rescue missions, which are not my thing. 

as you say, skill is a very difficult thing to quantify... arrogance however is pretty obvious in some high MR players. 

Agreed but the point I was trying to make is that skill in certain areas can only be gain by repeated play in that certain area. Im an MR21 but I was fairly bored of warframe around the time spy 2.0 came out, also I found them somewhat monotonous. I started playing again regularly when sorties came out and was forced to start into the deep end (I wanted that sortie loot). While I wasnt complete idiot who runs straight in I made very stupid errors resulting in failure. If I had played more regular tier as practice I wouldnt have made near as many rookie errors.

Now take this and apply it to draco, along that  MR grind they are still learning ways of effectively CCing, useful secondaries to use while levelling primaries, effective ways of killing and so on. Send them to a difficult endgame interception and they'll have some idea of how to beat it.

[Percept]

In wow people use achievements and for non mythic runs, item level as an indicator of how good a player is.

In all actuality it serves 0 purpose to determine another players skill.

Wow also has proving grounds, which are just like the mastery level tests where you do some basic task. Once again, It's not a good indication of skill.

People want to think mastery level is skill then fine by them. I get annoyed that I get declined to a sortie 1-3 because I'm MR6, after I solod them since I started playing 2 weeks ago.

[jfhsanseiIII]

Mastery Rank is tied to our mastery of weapons.   Perhaps the tests should reflect that.   I could get behind a skill rank. How often you complete different types of things. Revives, hacking, rescues, head shots, etc.  it would cover a lot if territory but I could get behind it.  People use MR as a very weird and biased way to determine skill, that isn't very reflective of it the majority of the time.  

[DeadlyPeanutt]

MR also tends to encourage players to be 'a mile wide and an inch thick'... because you get mastery from max leveling many weapons and frames, the player who has only a few frames/weapons that he's mastered is likely to be a lower MR.

to paraphrase bruce lee... fear not the man who practices a thousand kicks, fear the man who practices one kick a thousand times.

[SilentMobius]

1 hour ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

MR also tends to encourage players to be 'a mile wide and an inch thick'... because you get mastery from max leveling many weapons and frames, the player who has only a few frames/weapons that he's mastered is likely to be a lower MR.

to paraphrase bruce lee... fear not the man who practices a thousand kicks, fear the man who practices one kick a thousand times.

The game-as-is encourages cookie-cutter builds and limited-weapon usage just fine. The small motivation for MR that mitigates that hyper-focus slightly is nothing but a good thing. Providing a motivation to actually acquire a new weapon, play it to 30 and then decide if you want to keep it, is a really good system.

The only problem is when people try to exclude players based on MR, and those sort of people will exclude on any metric you give them, regardless of its applicability (and no metric will ever be a good indication of whether you should exclude a player)

MR is fine, it's a good progression goal and needs no changing, in fact most of the suggestions here would be a net negative for the game IMHO.