There are only 6 major roles for frames in the game and Trinity dominates almost half of them

[Venomzz0]

2 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Name one.

The innate bias you have against anyone who plays Trinity when you made the thread. You have been attacking peoples character because they "Have an emotional attachment to pixels", or you just flat-out insult people by making generalizations, such as people who don't want Trinity changed liking the game to be easy. Those are fallacies, ad hominem to be truly specific. You just tell people they have an unhealthy attachment to pixels instead of actually debating the argument at hand. 

[felixsylvaris]

• Trinity is not that popular or dominating. She is common in mission with energy reduction or health penalty but that is natural as Frost in Defence.
• She is not annoying to play with. And have no troll factor.
• Her gameplay is potencially interesting (you can use multiple abilities)
• She is best energy vampire and blessing, since the only one. Maybe if we have other supports we could compare.
• Hydroid and Oberon are below avarage. Buff them, or rework.
• Being OP is Warframe credo. Every popular warframe is somehow OP. This is whole idea of our immortal superhero versus some grunts.
• WF suffers from lack of high level content. We run with frames and weapons of drain 80+ versus enemies max level 40. And some are supprised why game is easy. We simply never leave Mercury when it comes to scaling difficulty.
• Players generally prefer having high kill count. So if someone playes support it is ok to give him more power. Otherwise playing support not only not contribute to obective or kills but also is unimpressive at supporting and dont make difference. And it is not as Trinity is popular NOW.
• Nerfing Trinity or any other popular frame is an option. But at this point it will not make the game significant better. Just a bit of cosmic balance and a lot of annoyance for players who really like her.

[Fifield]

13 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

The innate bias you have against anyone who plays Trinity when you made the thread. 

That's a made up ad hominem.

13 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

You have been attacking peoples character because they "Have an emotional attachment to pixels" 

I don't attack people's character, only their arguments.

Emotional attachment to pixels is what interferes with the obvious logical statement that Trinity is OP.  It is a waste of my time dealing with the same already discredited arguments repeatedly.

17 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

you just flat-out insult people by making generalizations, such as people who don't want Trinity changed liking the game to be easy.

That player actually admitted it, which was more honest than ~90% of the anti-balance responses in this thread.

18 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

You just tell people they have an unhealthy attachment to pixels instead of actually debating the argument at hand. 

I've destroyed every single half-plausible counterargument against balancing Trinity, so the second part of this statement is deceptive if not outright dishonest.

The first part is a gross generalisation. I've probably made over 15 comments in this thread and only pointed out the obvious emotional attachment to a pixelated robot deemed female twice.

 

[Venomzz0]

Its still the fact that you are attacking a persons CHARACTER, not the arguement. If you have EVER seen an actual debate people NEVER do that, they simply state why the person is wrong using the facts they have in their arsenal from extensive research, which they then do with 0% bias, because bias is what gets your argument turned invalid. You have very obvious bias towards the fact that Trinity needs a change that you have shown in almost every post. The fact that you have "destroyed" every argument makes me chuckle, because that's just not true at all. And yes, saying that someone has an over attachment is indeed attacking character. The "fact" that Trinity is OP is simply wrong, because it literally goes against the very definition of a fact, with that it is disputable, which is shown by this thread. You are also generalizing by saying that "~90%" of the people in this thread don't know anything about balance. You also committed a fallacy by saying someone was "scared of balance".

[Fifield]

3 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

Its still the fact that you are attacking a persons CHARACTER, not the arguement.

It's a fact because you say so?  This is a naked assertion, another bogus argument type.

4 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

If you have EVER seen an actual debate

Implying that I haven't -- a straw man fallacy.

5 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

You have very obvious bias towards the fact that Trinity needs a change that you have shown in almost every post.

That's not bias, that's logical deduction.  If we want frames to be balanced and less P4TW, she does need to be changed.  There's no plausible disagreement with that.

6 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

The fact that you have "destroyed" every argument makes me chuckle, because that's just not true at all.

Another naked assertion.

7 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

And yes, saying that someone has an over attachment is indeed attacking character.

Another naked assertion.

7 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

The "fact" that Trinity is OP is simply wrong, because it literally goes against the very definition of a fact, with that it is disputable, which is shown by this thread.

Facts are disputable.  You can dispute that 2+2=4.  You'd be using invalid counterargument, like all but one of counterarguments in this thread.  But it's still disputable.

13 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

You are also generalizing by saying that "~90%" of the people in this thread don't know anything about balance.

Never said that.  Another straw man argument.

Give up already.

[(PSN)Uio937]

Trinity has to have actual skill and a detailed build to be overpowered.

In the past, Blessing caused invulnerability to all teammates regardless of location or damage taken. Now in order to get damage resistance remotely like that it must be casted with perfect timing when someone hits 2 health.

Link is Trinity's only damaging ability, and it isn't OP, not from my experience. I slaughter more with my Vaykor Hek than I do with Link any day.

Energy Vampire is the bane of Trinity's existence and is the main argued ability. Players must be in range of the target, or to counter you must sacrifice other aspects of EV to increase her range. ie using Overextended takes away from the energy given per pulse. This ability is crucial in high level missions when Energy leeches appear everywhere. Something being important =/= being OP.

Well of Life is not important from my experiences, I'd use Blessing over it 9/10 times.

Trinity is balanced in her squishy-ness, in order to stay alive late game she'll need to cast EV, then Blessing, to keep her energy up, to then keep her alive. All the while she must focus on teammates.

[Venomzz0]

9 minutes ago, Fifield said:

It's a fact because you say so?  This is a naked assertion, another bogus argument type.

Implying that I haven't -- a straw man fallacy.

That's not bias, that's logical deduction.  If we want frames to be balanced and less P4TW, she does need to be changed.  There's no plausible disagreement with that.

Another naked assertion.

Another naked assertion.

Facts are disputable.  You can dispute that 2+2=4.  You'd be using invalid counterargument, like all but one of counterarguments in this thread.  But it's still disputable.

Never said that.  Another straw man argument.

Give up already.

Now you're just being silly, because I can make something called a "logical guess", I can logically guess that you have never seen a real debate before because of your misuse of the term naked assertion, your overall bias, and your saying that facts are disputable, because according to the very definition of a fact, 

fact

fakt/

noun

 

1. a thing that is indisputably the case.

    

    

   they are NOT disputable. So no, I will not give up, because all you seek to do is make the game the way YOU like it.

   Spoiler

   Also, I enjoy the edit on that post to remove the 90% portion, real nice ;)

    

Edited March 22, 2016 by Venomzz0

[Machayna]

21 minutes ago, Fifield said:

That's a made up ad hominem.

I don't attack people's character, only their arguments.

Emotional attachment to pixels is what interferes with the obvious logical statement that Trinity is OP.  It is a waste of my time dealing with the same already discredited arguments repeatedly.

That player actually admitted it, which was more honest than ~90% of the anti-balance responses in this thread.

I've destroyed every single half-plausible counterargument against balancing Trinity, so the second part of this statement is deceptive if not outright dishonest.

The first part is a gross generalisation. I've probably made over 15 comments in this thread and only pointed out the obvious emotional attachment to a pixelated robot deemed female twice.

 

Your use of the word obvious in multiple cases in this post is a good example.  Stating that something is the obvious (something) is an attempt to discredit.  Called an abusive ad hominem.  There's actually more incidentally.  

[Fifield]

 

20 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

I can logically guess that you have never seen a real debate before because of your misuse of the term naked assertion, your overall bias

The term isn't misused.

"In debate, a naked assertion is a claim presented with no supporting evidence. Naked assertions are often phrased in such a way as to sound informed, authoritative, or objective, but the surrounding verbiage adds nothing to the argument. "
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=definition+naked+assertion

I do not dispute my bias towards logic.

I have publicly debated British MPs twice, FYI.

20 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

they are NOT disputable

Already proved they are.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Fifield

[Fifield]

12 minutes ago, Machayna said:

Your use of the word obvious in multiple cases in this post is a good example.  Stating that something is the obvious (something) is an attempt to discredit.  Called an abusive ad hominem.  

Nope, it's just an adjective for something which any reasonable person can instantly see is true.

So not an ad hominem.  Calling it abusive is an appeal to emotional, intended to discredit me.  You used the bogus argument type you criticised... to criticise me.

Priceless.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Fifield

[Venomzz0]

4 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Nope, it's just an adjective for something which any reasonable person can instantly see is true.

So not an ad hominem.  Calling it abusive is an appeal to emotional, intended to discredit me.  You used the bogus argument type you criticised... to criticise me.

Priceless.

Except you misunderstand, because an ad hominem is naturally abusive, granted adding abusive in front of it technically makes it "Abusive Abusive Argument", but hes still not wrong. And you did not prove me wrong at all, because you LITERALLY CANNOT ARGUE with a fact, which is what makes it a fact. Attempting to argue with a fact is like trying to argue with a brick wall. It wont and will not go anywhere.

[Machayna]

Just now, Fifield said:

Nope, it's just an adjective for something which any reasonable person can instantly see is true.

So not an ad hominem.  Calling it abusive is an appeal to emotional, intended to discredit me.  You used the bogus argument type you criticised to criticise me.

Priceless.

Actually no. You're trying to basically do the same thing again.

Abusive[edit]

Abusive ad hominem usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their argument(s). Equating someone's character with the soundness of their argument is a logical fallacy.

Ad hominem abuse is not to be confused with slander or libel, which employ falsehoods and are not necessarily leveled to undermine otherwise sound stands with character attacks.

For instance trying to invalidate an argument by stating someone has an obvious emotional attachment to "pixels".  You may not think you are trying to discredit but it certainly seems like it.  

Exquisite.

[Fifield]

1 minute ago, Venomzz0 said:

Except you misunderstand, because an ad hominem is naturally abusive, granted adding abusive in front of it technically makes it "Abusive Abusive Argument", but hes still not wrong.

2 naked assertions.

2 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

you LITERALLY CANNOT ARGUE with a fact

Already proven it's possible.

2 minutes ago, Venomzz0 said:

Attempting to argue with a fact is like trying to argue with a brick wall. It wont and will not go anywhere.

I see you're backing down.

[RealPandemonium]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Uio937 said:

Trinity has to have actual skill and a detailed build to be overpowered.

In the past, Blessing caused invulnerability to all teammates regardless of location or damage taken. Now in order to get damage resistance remotely like that it must be casted with perfect timing when someone hits 2 health.

Link is Trinity's only damaging ability, and it isn't OP, not from my experience. I slaughter more with my Vaykor Hek than I do with Link any day.

Energy Vampire is the bane of Trinity's existence and is the main argued ability. Players must be in range of the target, or to counter you must sacrifice other aspects of EV to increase her range. ie using Overextended takes away from the energy given per pulse. This ability is crucial in high level missions when Energy leeches appear everywhere. Something being important =/= being OP.

Well of Life is not important from my experiences, I'd use Blessing over it 9/10 times.

Trinity is balanced in her squishy-ness, in order to stay alive late game she'll need to cast EV, then Blessing, to keep her energy up, to then keep her alive. All the while she must focus on teammates.

A Trinity player needs a little game knowledge (how do my skills work) but little actual skill in order to trivialize gameplay.  Blessing Trin needs only self-damage with her toxinglaive and press 4 immediately after.  EV Trin can spin around in circles spamming 2 (and 4 when in trouble) to give endless energy and health to all team members.  Trinity also has average durability for a frame which is bolstered by the ability to spam EV/Bless with the EV build, or by Link or outright Blessing immunity with the Blessing build.  Her effective durability is in the upper tier, even without 99% Blessing.  Some power range can be added to the Blessing build in order to radially DPS with Link to great effect when using explosives like Stug.

Just because these things require some game knowledge and practice, doesn't mean that they are not a problem.  DE needs to balance around maxcase.  It makes no sense to balance around people being unskilled and ignorant of game mechanics.  

[Venomzz0]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

2 naked assertions.

Already proven it's possible.

I see you're backing down.

Why are you making the assumption Im backing down? Because that just seems like a huge jump to conclusion. Can you please explain to me how my sentence is a naked assertion?

[RealPandemonium]

3 minutes ago, Fifield said:

 

Take it to PMs.  None of us are impressed with anyone's ability to google logical fallacies, and it's going nowhere for anyone.  

Edited March 22, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Fifield]

1 minute ago, Machayna said:

For instance trying to invalidate an argument by stating someone has an obvious emotional attachment to "pixels".

You've changed the argument half-way through.  Sneaky.  We were talking about my use of the word "obvious".

 

[(PSN)Uio937]

3 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

A Trinity player needs a little game knowledge (how do my skills work) but little actual skill in order to trivialize gameplay.  Blessing Trin needs only self-damage with her toxinglaive and press 4 immediately after.  EV Trin can spin around in circles spamming 2 (and 4 when in trouble) to give endless energy and health to all team members.  Trinity also has average durability for a frame which is bolstered by the ability to spam EV/Bless with the EV build, or by Link or outright Blessing immunity with the Blessing build.  Her effective durability is in the upper tier, even without 99% Blessing.  Some power range can be added to the Blessing build in order to radially DPS with Link to great effect when using explosives like Stug.

Just because these things require some game knowledge and practice, doesn't mean that they are not a problem.  DE needs to balance around maxcase.  It makes no sense to balance around people being unskilled and ignorant of game mechanics.  

Then patch self damage being cause for damage resistance. Example: 50% damage is self damage and 49% is real damage, you get only 49% damage resistance

[Fifield]

10 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Take it to PMs.  None of us are impressed with anyone's ability to google logical fallacies, and it's getting nowhere for anyone.  

I concur.  I'm not trying to impress anyone because I know there's nothing impressive about pseudonymously using words like strawman in a video game forum. I'm trying to show these two that they're guilty of what they accuse me.  But there's little point arguing with people who continually move the goalposts and don't accept when they're wrong.

To those two people: if you PM with evidence of you're capable of admitting just one instance of where you went wrong, I'll continue the debate via PM.  Else don't bother.

Whilst I reserve the right to defend myself, I will not publicly engage with such arguments with these two in future.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Fifield

[RealPandemonium]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Uio937 said:

Then patch self damage being cause for damage resistance. Example: 50% damage is self damage and 49% is real damage, you get only 49% damage resistance

It's hard to see a way of implementing that without just removing self-damage entirely.  The whole damage resistance per % of health lost is kind of dubious to begin with in the current Warframe, where people get 1-shotted by the level 100 enemies that are supposedly fair game now.  As long as it's possible to get 99% DR, people will always find ways to get it via small increments of damage or calculated amounts of self-damage, to say nothing of QT making it relatively easy to do so.    Yet another discussion that's ultimately pointless because DE hasn't addressed core issues with the damage and enemy scaling systems.  

Edited March 22, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[DiosGX]

On 3/20/2016 at 2:19 AM, MarcusGraves said:

Reckoning is a worse version of mag crush, less range, less damage, even less enemy hold duration. Cleansing doesn't matter when both shield and HP is restored on top of giving the team getting damage resist and Smite Infusion is affected by power str, so if you're running that max range build alongside it you're only doing a 100% buff and also makes his heal even suckier.

I'm not turning this into a buff Oberon thread, but he is a lacking frame with his 2 and 3 being just awful and a very meh ult.

All I'm reading here is "I need things to be made easier for me because I lack the talent needed to succeed otherwise."

Lern2hardmode

[LunarEdge7]

This dude just threw Equinox out the window. e.e"

[Fifield]

The game is very easy.  There are but a few maps & missions that a team of Oberon + other weaker frames can't do.

My argument has always been that variety is perhaps the core quality of long-term gameplay.  We have 30 frames but only 11 of them are viable.  We are being denied perhaps half the enjoyment the game should be providing because those 9 skills are far more valued than the other 111.

Sure I can bring Oberon to a raid and as long as the required roles are covered we'd succeed.  But they'll tell me to GTFO anyway.

[chaotea]

Personally i don't really like trinity that much. Ive never been able to use her all that well.

To be honest, i would disagree on the roles, though it is i suppose a matter of opinion. The way i see it it would be:

1: Tank (High survivability, able to take alot of damage while preforming critical actions. Generally without using alot of energy).

2: Nukers (High damage AoE abilities or abilities that otherwise allow player to wipe out large amounts of enemies).

3: Controllers (Less damaging skills, but with useful abilities to restrict the movement of enemies or indirect ability to deal damage of enemies, like snowglobe)

4: Travelers (Grouping those capable of moving swiftly through levels, and those capable of moving stealthily)

5: Cursers (Those capable of placing negative buffs to enemies)

6: Support (Those capable of placing positive buffs on allies, includes healing)

 

Now, generally most frames fit into at least 3/4 of these categories. I feel this would be a better spread of categories. Farming i feel is a support roll, as is speed buffing and damage boost. Single target damage is nuking still. Shields like snowglobe and volts barrier are control as i see it, as your forcing you opponent to act as you wish them to.

Trinity would hold down 1,3 and 6 as far as i can tell.

 

Obviously im not bashing your own system, just hoping that by giving you a different viewpoint of categories you might see that it can be very easy to say that any single frame conforms to more 'types' by defying those types around the frame in question.

[Amazerath]

On 3/20/2016 at 9:55 PM, Fifield said:

[...]

This post isn't just about how ridiculously OP and other-frame-obsoleting Trinity is.  

It also shows where to start when designing warframes.

[...]

I have two questions:

1) What is your personal definition of overpowered?

2) What exactly do you mean with that second sentence?